Metro Jacksonville

Expanding the system seems the most logical way to make it more useful. Currently its scope of operation is very small. Expanding the system into nearby neighborhoods will help make the Skyway a lot better, and more used.

Hey, my choice isn't on the list!

Abandon it AND tear the sucker down!  It is a blight on the town; ugly in itself and blocks any view of the neat buildings it passes in front of.  It's only redeeming feature is that it casts shade on some parking spaces in the hot weather.

Make it into an offshore reef and maybe we can pretend we were never dumb enough to build the thing.

Dog Walker I agree with you! Tear that sucker down and use the $7 Million Dollars a year it takes to operate on a real rail system......either Light rail or Trolly that would cover downtown and the outlying areas! Map out a system based on what we used to have before "Bus's" took over! That was the biggest mistake ever made!

Quote from: Dog Walker on June 01, 2010, 04:31:20 PM
Hey, my choice isn't on the list!

Abandon it AND tear the sucker down!  It is a blight on the town; ugly in itself and blocks any view of the neat buildings it passes in front of.  It's only redeeming feature is that it casts shade on some parking spaces in the hot weather.

Make it into an offshore reef and maybe we can pretend we were never dumb enough to build the thing.

Dog, I was only offered the choice of "abandon" but it wouldn't hurt my feelings if we followed your advice.  It's definitely ugly, a blight, and a street killer.  Even Ock's $100 million in Monopoly money can't put lipstick on this pig.  ;D

Of course, this poll isn't nearly as fun as the one I created in good humor (lost on more than a few responders though) a good while back.  Where is that poll anyway?...  Oh, here it is (no time limit on mine, vote anytime you want) for those who want to have differing options:

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,4755.0.html

Ock, if we only have $100 million, why don't you tell us how far that would go in building a streetcar system so, just in case.... we only have a single $100 million to spend we can see which gives us more bang for the buck.

P.S. Ock, like your moving train graphic.  But, it looks like Disney's monorail more than our Skyway.  Couldn't tell, are the cars running full?   :D

1.  Add routes:  For the $100 million I predict a leg into Brooklyn, San Marco/Atlantic, and possibly the stadium district could be done with a "no frills" concrete beam.  This will connect the major nodes of activities and give the average person a reason to use it and also prevent pesky transfers.  Beyond those extensions (maybe a future leg to Shands) a complementing streetcar system should be used to fill in the minor activity area gaps.

2.  Add hours:  The system has to run suffecient hours to prevent people being stranded while trying to enjoy some shopping or nightlife.  Knowing the system will be running will boost the riders confidence in the system.

3.  Cut Fares:  Let's face it, fare boxes are a pain and slow down commutes.  Make it free to speed things up and entice riders.  The roads are free so why shouldn't the Skyway be free too?

4:  Funnel other modes into seemless transfer connections:  MUST MUST MUST!!!! Simple realignments of the bus system and integration of other modes of transit have to feed riders into the Skyway.


Here are some old images that show similar routes to what I would propose, along with other modes and their interaction:

Cyan/Teal: Skyway
Red & Blue: Streetcar
Yellow: Commuter Rail
Orage: BRT or future LRT

(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/asonj23/Google%20Earth%20Snapshots/TransitPlans-3.jpg)


(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/asonj23/Google%20Earth%20Snapshots/TransitPlans-4.jpg)





Possible Brooklyn Terminus at Annie Lyttle:

(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/asonj23/Google%20Earth%20Snapshots/AnnieLyttleSkywayTerminal-4.jpg)

(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/asonj23/Google%20Earth%20Snapshots/AnnieLyttleSkywayTerminal-3.jpg)

(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/asonj23/Google%20Earth%20Snapshots/AnnieLyttleSkywayTerminal-2.jpg)

simple...expand the Skyway to Riverside/Brooklyn, into San Marco, and possibly to the stadium...then connect it into a larger regional system and expand the hours to match the rest of the system...once that has been done, fares could be raised (as people would likely have more incentive to ride it)....or it could be free w/ a transfer (like Miami's system).

Jason's post pretty much sums it up for me. 

While we can only guess what $100 million could buy, it think that's enough to put most of that into play.  Barring the intriguing Annie Lyttle transit hub that is.

I agree with Jason

Expand to Riverside, San Marco and to Shands.

Quote from: tufsu1 on June 01, 2010, 05:08:08 PM
simple...expand the Skyway to Riverside/Brooklyn, into San Marco, and possibly to the stadium...then connect it into a larger regional system and expand the hours to match the rest of the system...once that has been done, fares could be raised (as people would likely have more incentive to ride it)....or it could be free w/ a transfer (like Miami's system).

I did not conceive this strategy, but it makes sense to me.

Abandonment doesn't serve future fund raising very well.

"Dad!?  Can I have another twenty bucks?"

"Didn't I just give you twenty bucks?"

"Ya... but I decided to throw that twenty away. I only like crisp new bills."

I am with Jason also. Expansion to the stadium will also serve metropark and shipyard whenever it gets built out. When I lived in Atlanta I never drove into town for an event of course I didnt have to leave my neighborhood either. Marta station was only 3 miles away,,,sweet!!!

Expand to San Marco, Riverside and Springfield, where it would seamlessly connect with neighborhood streetcars.  Don't cut the fare.  If people are willing to pay now, just leave it in place.  People would be much more upset if you took it away and then brought it back, rather than just leaving it.  Extend hours and add a center car for increased traffic and capacity.  I think the skyway is beautiful and ads an urban feel to the core. 

One thing that is not mentioned is better utilizing existing skyway infrastructure to generate additional revenue.  This could include wrapping cars with advertisments or leasing out sections of stations for retail opportunities.  Both create additional revenue not currently being generated and the retail option creates more exposure for the system, which could lead to an increase in ridership.

Train Wrap Advertisment
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-3521-p1060562.JPG)

Retail kiosk
(http://cache.virtualtourist.com/939717-Sendai_Train_Station_and_the_Kiosk-Sendai.jpg)

Ground space at the skyway's more popular stations like Central, Hemming and Rosa Parks could be leased to small retail vendors to generate additional income to maintain the system.

(http://travelerfolio.com/travelerfolio/photos/japan_kiosk.jpg)

(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-6994-p1150930.JPG)
Ground level space in Central Station where vendor space could be created.

I would expand it, but I would do it like Los Angeles has done with their system. The elevated parts of the the skyway that could be used would be the ones that could accomodate LRVs like many cities have. I don't know if that curve going toward FCCJ Downtown Campus, or the current Acosta Bridge layout would make it with the new system. More lines could be made using what is left of those sections. Where the "Skyway" portion ends, the lines could go to grade level, and they could connect to the existing rails--that we all know are there--to make things easier. Basically, I would take elements of everyone's plans, and I would combine them. Maybe, one day they could stretch out further to "the mean streets" of Argyle! I'm dreaming!

If you haven't opened up and commented on the Skyway Poll, this is big chance...

Lake, I sort of figured the pedestrian enhancements would count toward your Kiosks, yeah, you know I'm on board.



OCKLAWAHA

Ock ,Jim and Lunican all know where I would have it run.   Ock's Idea for it to run to PS#4 is a fit . I wish it would become reality.

Abandon it, tear down the concrete and use for reef projects, sell the cars to other cities or for scrap. JTA cannot justify keeping it without an overall transit plan that residents have buy-in and help in creating. JTA cannot find their way out of a paper bag.

LOL!  Only you M.

Quote from: Timkin on June 06, 2010, 11:06:15 PM
LOL!  Only you M.

Not only M... his views are most prevalent outside the MJ community.  Good thing this poll isn't at the ballot box or you might see much different results.

the Skyway would be more commonly used if it were connected to more than one or two even reasonably decent destinations. You may be right stjr... But I was thinking this idea takes care of two issues, one being a useful destination for the SW and a reuse for a building that deserves another chance..  M would be opposed to either one just because I am for them :P  but thats okay too.  Tear it down if the majority rules. but leave ps 4 to find a new use for it.

stjr - I am a realist and can see what the Skyway is: A daily bloated reminder of taxpayer waste that should be removed so that some good can finally come from the pieces and parts.

Of course, Timken and others would gladly place the historic tag on the Skyway and rally to save it when it loses money and is a lightening rod for continuous waste. Thanks to the JTA and their continuous waste, you will soon be paying 6 cents a gallon more, for even more "future" waste.

on this note M, I will correct you.  I would not place a historic tag on the Skyway..  I simply am stating that if the thing is ever going to be usable , I would propose extending it to some destinations where people would use it. 

I do not apologize to you or anyone for loving buildings that are historic...and I sure wish monies and uses were readily available for them... extending the skyway to Brooklyn/5points (in my humble and perhaps wrong opinion) would make use of the School when one other than residential was never seriously considered.  Of the two (historic buildings or the Skyway) Id see the skyway taken down.  I regret that a more serious approach to the thing was not entertained before building it. I do not like that it runs down Hogan and Dead ends at Union.  I sort of side with you about its feasibility as it currently is.  To make it usable and ever profitable , it must be expanded to other destinations.  That was all I was saying.  There is nothing historic about it. It was built well after my time. :)

Timkin, I share your love for all things historic and you have seen my posts to that effect repeatedly on MJ.  As to the school, I would fully support it in anyway possible and its use as a terminal/station for streetcars/buses would have my full support.  I don't need to repeat here my concerns, along the lines of Mtrain, regarding the cost/benefit ratio of further expanding the Skyway to there or anywhere else.

Thanks stjr.  That was all I was getting at.  For as long as I can remember the only proposed use for the School was residential.  Given its proximity, and lack of land space, I just cannot envision residential working there.  I can envision a transit terminal, be it skyway, bus , train, trolley, mule and wagon, whatever.  I was personally NEVER in love with the Skyway.  But I do feel that part of the growth of our city hinges on transportation modes similar to this extending around the city.  Appreciate your support of Historic Buildings.  This is a fit for Annie Lytle School.

Timken - expanding the skyway to save PS4 is akin to saving the Riverside Fire Station because someone might come along and have a use for it later. So far no one in the city or RAP has shown how or if PS4 could be used for anything other than a landing post for pigeons. No city council person has brought new plans forth and no one on MJ has put forth anything, other than hot air, to provide a credible solution. Be thankful the residential and commercial problems overshadow the issues with PS4.

Timkin, I once suggested that the school may also serve as an entry point/gateway for tourists coming off the new I-95/I-10 ramps or connecting by streetcar.  As such, it could be the starting point for tours of Riverside, Downtown, Springfield, and San Marco and may be a good location for such organizations as RAP, the Tourism Council, Convention and Visitors Bureau, local hotel and restaurant associations, and other tourist related companies/activities.

 :)  Perhaps it could be utilized for both...setting aside the Skyway , and just using Bus/Trolley.

stjr - The skyway is a political albatross that will take the leader who tackles it to the bottom of the river. No one on the southside cares about the skyway and most of the population is removed from using it. JTA is only concerned with increasing the gas tax to pay for new road construction. They don't care about the skyway anymore than the people who live on the southside.

Tours from PS4? Ghost tours are a great start, let's see how much revenue comes in from these tours. Seriously!

Quote from: mtraininjax on June 07, 2010, 12:06:25 AM
stjr - The skyway is a political albatross that will take the leader who tackles it to the bottom of the river. .... JTA is only concerned with increasing the gas tax to pay for new road construction. They don't care about the skyway anymore than the people who live on the southside.

Mtrain, we agree on your Skyway and gas tax points.  I have tried to make these points on MJ but, for the most part, the reception in these quarters could hardly be called "open" to this line of thinking.  Most here think they can have a further expanded Skyway, streetcars, commuter rail, buses, and other mass transit modes at once and don't see one interfering with the likelihood of getting the others.  Aside from the political constraints, there are the financial ones.  JTA can't find a few hundred grand from taxpayers for "popular" bus shelters... I don't know where people think they will find tens of millions for the "unpoplular" Skyway.

I voted to expand its routes. I'd have it go to the Sports Complex, San Marco, The Landing, 5 Points and possibly Avondale. The Sports Complex is a no-brainer though.

Cut fares. With such a strong turnout for abandonment of the Skyway, wouldnt it cost millions just to demolish it? I feel expansion cant be justified to the citizens whom see it as an albatross. I feel aggressive residental growth downtown is the best approach for saving Skyway.

The skyway could be free and JTA would not see an increase in riders, it goes nowhere people need to go.

The thing needs just about every option you guys have on the list to happen.  But, I'd start with expanding into just one direction: to the Sports Complex first for Jags/Sharks/Suns games.  Other than that, I'd cut the hours of operation down to whatever is determined to be "peak hours".  I think it was said before: if the thing went to and from the Stadium, there'd be no need to funnel people out down Bay St.  We always park under the Jefferson St station and hop on one of those buses for Jags games.  There'd be no need for that either. 

I believe that it may as well be "saved", since, yes, it probably costs quite a bit to knock it down, and it's still serviceable.

It definately needs to be expanded to the sports complex. I would much rather that than the bus from Prime to the stadium! It needs a stop right out side of the Landing as well.

I would definitely ride the skyway to the stadium. I don't understand when we got the Jags they just didn't go ahead extended then,make no sense.

You currently have the NFL's top-rated (according to Sports Illustrated) stadium shuttle service. So why spend millions of dolalrs to duplicate that. Parking is not an issue for arena events or for baseball games like it is for the stadium. If you have hotels/condos and other development in that area to drive ridership daily then perhaps then it makes sense. Until then - I don't think it makes sense to build it for the few days a year that it would be used.

As for the Landing comment - it stops 1/2 block away right now. How much closer does it need to be? Downtown workers could use it now to go to lunch or to the courthouse of city hall - but few do. They would rather drive around the block until a parking space opens up. I read a couple years back where over 10k people work within a block of the Skyway. There is ridership potential there if people want to take advantage.

Does it go everywhere people want to go - of course not. But much more people could be using than are.

I guess they have the same attituded you have. The stadium is also near metro park it can service that area and shipyards when ever built out. Buses add congestion and pollute the air. Skyway shouldnt have been extended decades ago.

If it was extended toward the stadium for the Super Bowl, then there wouldn't be a need for that armada of buses, and all the cops playing crossing guard.  Having a line to the stadium would, in my opinion, have the most immediate impact UNTIL there is some area infill.   

Quote from: exnewsman on June 07, 2010, 11:09:10 AM
You currently have the NFL's top-rated (according to Sports Illustrated) stadium shuttle service. So why spend millions of dolalrs to duplicate that. Parking is not an issue for arena events or for baseball games like it is for the stadium. If you have hotels/condos and other development in that area to drive ridership daily then perhaps then it makes sense. Until then - I don't think it makes sense to build it for the few days a year that it would be used.

Truth

take it to San Marco where the mixed use publix is going to be. Five points would use it more but RAM probably will insist on streetcars to fit into the "historic District".  Springfield would also be an excelant choice and it would help set the stage for commuter rail on the S line in the future.

Its sad to say, until JTA realizes its potential, we can talk and debate about it all day and nothing will change. I have concluded that JTA, along with the mayors office is very backwards in every way imaginable and has no sense in what they are doing.

The thing about the skyway is when the plans were first brought to the table (mid- late 70's I think) the skyways actually would have served a purpose. The skyways route was based on the retail and businesses taht were downtown at the time. By the time the system came to frutation (early 80's I believe), downtown was dead as a door knob and abandoned. This should also be a lessoned learned about dragging our feet, which is something Jacksonville is known for. This is why its seems to go " nowhere to nowhere" because "everywhere" no longer exists.

I'd love to see the Skyway stretch to all lengths of the city and have center cars. One major station on each side of town and miniature stations in the biggest housing areas.

Quote from: kells904 on June 07, 2010, 08:41:47 AM
The thing needs just about every option you guys have on the list to happen.  But, I'd start with expanding into just one direction: to the Sports Complex first for Jags/Sharks/Suns games.  Other than that, I'd cut the hours of operation down to whatever is determined to be "peak hours".  I think it was said before: if the thing went to and from the Stadium, there'd be no need to funnel people out down Bay St.  We always park under the Jefferson St station and hop on one of those buses for Jags games.  There'd be no need for that either. 

I believe that it may as well be "saved", since, yes, it probably costs quite a bit to knock it down, and it's still serviceable.

God forbid that this be your opinion. M-train would have a heart attack.  He would have this and every vacant building in Jacksonville knocked down and made into a reef :D

Quote from: duvaldude08 on June 08, 2010, 03:55:43 PM
Its sad to say, until JTA realizes its potential, we can talk and debate about it all day and nothing will change. I have concluded that JTA, along with the mayors office is very backwards in every way imaginable and has no sense in what they are doing.

The thing about the skyway is when the plans were first brought to the table (mid- late 70's I think) the skyways actually would have served a purpose. The skyways route was based on the retail and businesses taht were downtown at the time. By the time the system came to frutation (early 80's I believe), downtown was dead as a door knob and abandoned. This should also be a lessoned learned about dragging our feet, which is something Jacksonville is known for. This is why its seems to go " nowhere to nowhere" because "everywhere" no longer exists.

This is absolutely dead on D D .  This is the sad revelation of the Skyway. It happened amidst Everything in downtown and some close by outlying areas being razed to the point that that (compared to the 70s) no one goes downtown.   JTA did not think this thing through and I will concur with M-train on this point, I think they would struggle finding their way out of a burlap sack, and they probably could care less about the SW. that said...Since it exists and is still in pretty good shape rather than spending good money to scrap it now and tear it down, finally utilize the thing by expanding it.  would agree the stadium would be a viable destination.. Love Springfield but im not sure of its development status being enoiugh to support an extension there yet.. Think Riverside is... As much as I love the idea of School #4 becoming a transit station (probably the best idea I have ever heard for it, and one that could certainly help immensely to make it viable)  I think time will run out for School #4 well before this becomes a reality, unless of course the economy takes a major turn and someone with deep pockets and appreciation for buildings such as this one comes forth.  M-train made me sort of chuckle about the School being a pigeon rest, I have to admit.  I think otherwise, and I hope I can prove him and all of the other adverse minds of historic structures otherwise, which is why I will continue forward cleaning up the School.  I may be alot of things but lazy is not one of them :)

expand it to the sports complex over the mathews bridge down the expressway and atlantic blvd to the beach and tie it into beaches trolly for year round use.

If you're serious about that post, I like it.   For this thing to really pay off it has to go to real destinations. going simply across the bridge to Friendship and North to Union will never make it profitable. it has to branch out.

Quote from: Timkin on June 09, 2010, 12:54:37 AM
If you're serious about that post, I like it.   For this thing to really pay off it has to go to real destinations. going simply across the bridge to Friendship and North to Union will never make it profitable. it has to branch out.

Timkin, not so fast.  Even Ock will tell you the system isn't designed for such long distances.  Brooklyn, San Marco at Atlantic, Shands and the Stadium are about the outer limits to this system as I get it.  Based on the comments posted on MJ, many people supporting "expansion" here are like Keith, they think the system can go way beyond what it is designed for.  Wonder what they would think if they understood the truth?

Could the "rail" that these are on be retrofitted for Monorail? ...like Disney has had for ages?? just curious.  Keep the "skyway" local as it is currently designed, but go Monorail or some similar thing to outlying areas?

Am I mistaken or does MARTA in Atlanta have a monorail system in place now?

just throwing ideas out ... I cannot imagine that this skyway thing has been used enough to be worn out

The Skyway is a monorail.

as stjr has noted, the Skyway can only be extended so far...however, there is no reason we couldn't build a regional system that tied into it....for example, the skyway could go to the stadium area and then people could transfer to BRT or light rail...take that over the bridge and onto the beach.

I know I am late in posting, and, I have not read other posts indicating where the skyway should be extended to, so, here is where I would extend the skyway to:

Northside (Springfield, etc.)
Northside (all the way to Airport and neighborhoods surround I-95)
Westside (out to Cecil Commerce Center)
Southside (Southbank, San Marco, etc.)
Southside (neighborhoods surrounding U.S. 17 (Roosevelt) out to NAS Jax and Orange Park)
Southside (neighborhoods around I-95 south extending to St. Augustine)
Eastside (from downtown to Sports Complex)
Eastside (from downtown to Jaxport and surrounding neighborhoods)
Eastside (from downtown to Arlington Expressway & surrounding neighborhoods out to beaches)

I know this is a bit much and justification for extending based on ridership would possibly be hard to do, but hey, maybe "build it and they will come" might just work.  Also, $100 million might not be enough to extend to all of the proposed destinations.  But anyhoo, the aforementioned are where I would like the skyway to extend.  Though I didn't select it, I probably would raise the fares to bring in more money to assist in ensuring that the extensions are completed.

Lastly, I have not forgotten that bus routes already operate in these locales, but maybe somehow we could get the two to work together by extending to a certain point in these areas, and then providing the bus service on to the last destination point(s).

"HU"

Quote"The whole thing was a huge mistake, it should never have been done. I shut down the construction and proposed to abandon the thing when we learned we'd have to pay back the Federal Government every penny of the cost. So the whole system failed to move forward from there, they're just not making an effort to fix or justify its presence."

MAYOR ED AUSTIN, yesterday, Riverside

The point was taken that once the city put the Skyway on ice and reviewed it's cost either to keep or scrap the monorail the judgment call was to move on and integrate it into a regional system. The disappointment, silence, lack of conviction, or imagination coming from JTA has been a disaster.  BTW, the former Mayor said he very much supported Real Trolleys.

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: tufsu1 on June 09, 2010, 08:03:37 AM
as stjr has noted, the Skyway can only be extended so far...however, there is no reason we couldn't build a regional system that tied into it....for example, the skyway could go to the stadium area and then people could transfer to BRT or light rail...take that over the bridge and onto the beach.

Very true friend TUFSU.  I'd say the practical limits on extensions or end points would be the East Bank of the St. Johns River near the foot of "new" Matthews Bridge, perhaps JU. To the Southeast, about Memorial Hospital. To the South, Jackson Square.  Southwest? PS-4. West? Farmers Market. North, to Shands or the S line terminal behind shands.

One of the quickest fixes we could do under capital costs would be a series of covered sidewalks, halls, to serve as pedestrian gateways to the Skyway. In short - CONNECTIVITY.  Likewise making each Skyway Station a destination would have tremendous impact. How beautiful would the view be from an elevated walk or grand paseo from the San Marco Station to Atena, Baptist, and Nemours? The grand paseo would be something like the airport concourses with lots and lots of thermal glass. There might even be room for a mini-food court, restrooms, street performers and vendors... Hell let Simon Malls market the damn thing.


OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: buckethead on June 09, 2010, 08:02:36 AM
The Skyway is a monorail.

Correct and arguably a better one then the mouse has!

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: Ocklawaha on June 10, 2010, 11:20:58 AM

Quote from: buckethead on June 09, 2010, 08:02:36 AM
The Skyway is a monorail.

Correct and arguably a better one then the mouse has!

OCKLAWAHA

Dude why do you keep saying that lol the disney system is bigger than the Jax system....explain what you mean.

Quote from: Timkin on June 09, 2010, 01:09:01 AM
Could the "rail" that these are on be retrofitted for Monorail? ...like Disney has had for ages?? just curious.  Keep the "skyway" local as it is currently designed, but go Monorail or some similar thing to outlying areas?

Am I mistaken or does MARTA in Atlanta have a monorail system in place now?

The Marta uses heavy rail transit. No trolleys, no commuter rail or monorail. Just Buses & 38 Heavy Rail Stations

It's not the miles that count in quality, just as it's not the number of rabbits that make a good stew. placing a couple of thousand feet of Disneys monorail next to ours would exhibit many differences. Disneys is a fancy ammusement ride and ours is a well made transit system with much more in the way of high tech safety equipment then Disney employs. In fact next to any other world system, the Skyway stands up under the microscope as well done.

Bottom line, even if you hate the Skyway, it is a Rolls Royce of a mini-transit link. This is a fact that has come home to bite us in the nether regions.  The costly little railroad by virtue of it's overbuilt-quality may have shot itself in the foot from the get-go.

Timkin, MARTA is heavy rail, just like any other Subway or Elevated electric railway, with steel wheels on steel rails, ditto for Miami, and DC. We have the only monorail in our region except for Mickeys, Bush Gardens and similar railways.

Speaking of Mickey, wouldn't the Main Street USA horse car line look sweet in St. Augustine?

OCKLAWAHA

Well Savannah does have a short trolley line, why not here? Horse drawn cars could be a  tourist draw, and darn sure does not require power or fossil fuels to run and we could use the end product to beautify downtown! That park next to City Hall could use some free fertilizer for sure since the fourth floor seems to let their end product sift down to the taxpayers, which tells me just what city hall thinks of us voters! It could be the "Jacksonville Horse drawn  Line" and lets go from there!

Who will clean up the do-do!? Recession jobs guaranteed!

Install buckets on the back of the horses to collect the do-do .  I think the Horse-drawn carriage idea is a good one.. :)

(http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~txecm/Photos/WaxahachiePhotos/InterurbanMuleCaronCollegeSt.gif)
When the old met the new... deep in Texas

Do-do cleaners! St. Augustine seems to have no problem with this...  

BTW, did you know that "DO-DO" is the reason for cable car and streetcar development in America?

True!

In large systems such as San Francisco and New York, the street railways might have stabled 1,000 or more horses or mules. Each animal will drop an average of 10lbs of "DO-DO" daily onto the streets along with several gallons of urine. The urine interacts with the soil and "poop" to create a slick surface on paved or brick streets which led to many animal accidents involving serious injury or deaths to animal and humans. Worse still on a warm day steaming "DO-DO" is almost guaranteed to be laced with tetanus - often leading to a delayed case of the horrible killer disease. People were hopeful when the first cable cars rolled down the streets without a "POOPER" in the lead. Power could be supplied by a huge steam engine which drove a series of giant spools of cables, running continuously in a slot midway between the rails. The cable car era only lasted from roughly 1875 to 1885, and by then the electric trolley had been perfected at a huge discount over the capital costs of cable.

So it's not really the "DO - DO", rather, it's what you do with it that counts.


OCKLAWAHA

A definitely educational post, I must admit.   I was going to make the point about St. Augustine having these horse-drawn carriages for as long back as I can remember,,,probably much longer, and they remain today one of the attractions to the Nation's Oldest City. :)   But I presumed everyone knew this anyway. 

^ you can add Savannah and Charleston to your list.