http://vimeo.com/11219730 (http://vimeo.com/11219730)(http://i579.photobucket.com/albums/ss239/hawkrolla/life3.jpg)http://jacksonville.com/news/crime/2010-05-27/story/emotion-fills-courtroom-sentencing-teen-who-killed-pizza-deliverer (http://jacksonville.com/news/crime/2010-05-27/story/emotion-fills-courtroom-sentencing-teen-who-killed-pizza-deliverer)
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" Mamas, don't let your babies grow up to be murderers..."
If i had been on the receiving end of that bullet i could only hope this young man receive 20 yrs. at best,at worst if the judge MUST make an example of him(which has been proven to do no earthly good) death would be a much more compassionate sentence. Life for a 16 yr old is as cruel and unusual as punishment get's.
Cruel and unusual?
Cruel and Unusual punishment, who the hell cares. This little thug had committed armed robbery the night before and then wanted to do it again, and ended up killing someone. He can sit and rot in prison and think about the life he stole.
I would argue that the victim and her family were subjected to cruel and unusual punishment.
I agree, Tom, that if I were murdered by a sixteen year old attacker, that I might wish for leniency (depending on the demeanor of the kid, i suppose).
If the sixteen year old perpetrator had murdered my daughter, however, I might be less inclined towards forgiveness.
Kids today are exposed to a level of violence that we never imagined when I was that age. A good old fashioned ass kicking was as far as a violent altercation ever went. It is a great tragedy for the kid and his mom, but a self inflicted tragedy.
Quote from: Tom Joad on May 30, 2010, 11:00:19 AM
right
How, please explain how putting his ass away for life is cruel and unusual after he killed a woman over a few bucks and some pizza. I would love to hear your reasoning as to why it is cruel/unusual because little shits like him these days don't care anymore and need to be taught harsh lessons.
Of course, he is given a life sentence, but doesn't say w/o parole, so he'll probably serve 15-25 years and then get out. He deserves to sit and rot in jail over a senseless crime. Record or not prior to this, he killed someone and deserves the book to hit him in the face.
Quote from: stephendare on May 30, 2010, 11:10:45 AM
Come on now. This is off topic, but times were certainly not less violent when we were kids, Buckethead. There was all that vietnam business, daily reports about the Son of Sam Murders, the Manson Trials, lingering racial violence from the desegregation issue, and a social climate where child abuse was still called strict parental discipline.
There is no more reason to excuse murder or break the laws today than there were then based on social violence.
I personally think there is less.
There might actually be less inter-cultural violence, Stephen. The type of violence committed by our youth, however, has certainly escalated. Not very often was it heard that a teenager had murdered anyone. That was big news indeed. Now it is heard quite often, and is rarely a national story.
I would not excuse murder.
Nor would I consider this an example of "social violence". This was predatory violence. Much like the cases you cited (committed by adults, incidentally) with perhaps somewhat differring motives.
Quote from: reednavy on May 30, 2010, 11:06:23 AM
Quote from: Tom Joad on May 30, 2010, 11:00:19 AM
right
How, please explain how putting his ass away for life is cruel and unusual after he killed a woman over a few bucks and some pizza. I would love to hear your reasoning as to why it is cruel/unusual because little shits like him these days don't care anymore and need to be taught harsh lessons.
Of course, he is given a life sentence, but doesn't say w/o parole, so he'll probably serve 15-25 years and then get out. He deserves to sit and rot in jail over a senseless crime. Record or not prior to this, he killed someone and deserves the book to hit him in the face.
Well there are no easy answers here.You have to do 80% of your sentence in fl. not sure how they determine 80% of life but there is a 100% chance when he get's out he will be a much more proficient killer seeing as how the gun "just went off" this time. With school being out shortly there will be no shortage of bored gun toting angry teens running the mean streets of Jacksonville apparently the judge wanted to send a message to em. We shall see....
He and his friends all deserve life in prison. They committed 1st degree murder. They knew what they were doing when they lured that poor woman to that apartment to rob her. F*ck them. That photo of him crying on his mama's breast? Priceless. Last set he'll ever see. Now someone go make a few thousand copies and paper your favorite neighborhood...
~j.
Quote from: Tom JoadWell there are no easy answers here.You have to do 80% of your sentence in fl. not sure how they determine 80% of life but there is a 100% chance when he get's out he will be a much more proficient killer seeing as how the gun "just went off" this time. With school being out shortly there will be no shortage of bored gun toting angry teens running the mean streets of Jacksonville apparently the judge wanted to send a message to em. We shall see....
There's been summer vacations from school, since the beginning of the educational system, and kids will be home...so what's your point. That kids today are more bored and prone to committing violent crimes simply because it's today and not that of yesterday? Give me a break, if the lousy parents actually took an active role in parenting these thugs, then we wouldn't have to deal with them as much as we do nowadays.
The fact is, the poor dear little 16 year old, who didn't have a criminal record, decided to participate in armed robberies. The first night (that we know of) was quite successful, so they opted to continue, only this time the moron pulled the trigger because the defenseless woman didn't want to give up her hard earned money to some low life.
Again, who the hell cares? I sure don't and I sure don't care that he'll spend the majority of his life behind bars. Nor do I care that he'll be in there with those much tougher than he is. Yeah, he may learn to kill a bit better, he may learn to fight better...or at least, he better hope so, or he'll be someone's boytoy.
Oh and the message by the judge, that apparently he's sick of these thugs killing people too and that he'd rather see them live out their days behind bars. Will it prevent other thugs from killing, not likely, because they'd have to have a freaking respect for life first.
Quote from: RockStarHe and his friends all deserve life in prison. They committed 1st degree murder. They knew what they were doing when they lured that poor woman to that apartment to rob her. F*ck them. That photo of him crying on his mama's breast? Priceless. Last set he'll ever see. Now someone go make a few thousand copies and paper your favorite neighborhood...
~j.
I especially liked that photo, he may as well get used to being in that position.... ;)
They ordered a pizza with the objective of robbing them of that and any money they had on them. When they did, she refused, and the gun "magically" went off and killed her.
He and his friends knew what they were doing and saying he is 16 and doesn't fully understand what is right and wrong or whatever is a pitiful arguement.
Even though he plead guilty for 2nd degree murder, the judge gave him life to make an example of him. There are way too many young thugs of all races in this town that need to see what can happen when you get caught.
Quote from: stephendare
Springfielder.
How long did it take you to learn from the worst mistake you ever made? In your life?
There is no way to replace the life that he took. Just as there isnt any way to replace the life taken from Kiko Battles, the kid shot to death in front of his grandmother just north of Springfield.
I bring this up just to make the point that we don't base our punishments on value for value.
I do not have an opinion about this boy, or about his punishment.
I didnt pay close enough attention to decide whether or not the punishment fits the crime, so Im going to have to rely that you and the other posters on this forum did.
Was the crime sufficiently evil that the only existence that this 16 year old (probably not even done with puberty) will ever know for the next 60 years is locked in a cage?
If not, who does this serve? And who pays for it?
If so, please fill me in. As I said, I don't know enough about it.
First of all, any mistakes I have made in my life don't begin to compare to what happened. I've never committed a crime, much less murdered someone. This was no mistake, it was an intentional act, he knew the gun was loaded, he knew he intended to rob the delivery person...so just where is this mistake?
Simply put, these 3 thugs ordered pizzas, waiting for the delivery with the intent to rob. They successfully pulled off an armed robbery of this nature the night before, and then planned to do it again. This time, the innocent victim didn't want to give up her hard earned money, so the kid shot her...oh wait, the gun just went off, shooting her in the head and killing her.
If it were not for the fact that their first intention was robbery, they would've been charged with first degree murder, instead it was second degree. Still, a totally innocent, hard working woman is dead because of their actions.
So what does life in prison serve? It keeps someone that has no regard for the life of another, someone who had no problem pointing a loaded gun at someones head to demand their money...off the streets. It serves as one less thug off the streets. So does the punishment of life behind bars fit the crime of murder, I say yes. As for whom this serves, it serves society and the laws/punishment we set in place.
As to the other case you mentioned, neither are similar in nature...Battles is dead because of his own illegal actions. That is a completely different issue
Quote from: stephendareSo the point is to take him off the street? Because he might kill again?
Well that seems to be a valid argument. What is it based on? Has he indicated that he is a murderer by inclination? Or is it possible that it was an accident, and that he murdered someone that he only intended on frightening?
It's based upon the consequences set forth for committing a violent felony, that resulted in the death of another person. As I stated before, it's Second Degree Murder, because the intent was to rob, the killing was a result of that criminal/felony action. It doesn't matter if it was an 'accident, that fact remains the he took the life of another while in the commission of a felony. That's the law, and when you violate that law, society has guidelines for punishment.
To respond to the differences in the cases you mentioned and this one...the reason he wasn't charged with First Degree/Capital Murder, such as what was likely the case in the situations you mentioned, because of the degree of culpability: intentionally, willingly, neglectfully and recklessly.
Quote782.04 Murder.--
(1)(a) The unlawful killing of a human being:
1. When perpetrated from a premeditated design to effect the death of the person killed or any human being;
2. When committed by a person engaged in the perpetration of, or in the attempt to perpetrate, any:
a. Trafficking offense prohibited by s. 893.135(1),
b. Arson,
c. Sexual battery,
d. Robbery,
http://law.justia.com/florida/codes/TitleXLVI/ch0782.html
I'm just gonna put down my initial thought here because I admit that I haven't read everything in the the thread or everything about the trial. But I am pretty shocked at the number of people supporting this.
This kid deserves a sentence, no question, but this whole "make and example" thing is bull. It's the same line of reasoning that thugs use when they beat a man to death for not paying for his drugs, or when they gouge the eyes out of a DJ at a local club for not playing their favorite song. It's brutal. The kid will be punished for the rest of his life anyway, through guilt, through prison time and through post-prison unemployment and possibly homelessness, with no degree under his belt and nowhere in the city hiring former violent offenders. His life was ruined in about five different ways before they decided to make an example of him. And besides, who are they making an example to? kids who play with guns? Because I've got news for you, that is going to happen as along as people don't watch their kids and allow guns in a household with kids.
He's earned a punishment, but at the point where even the victim's families are capable of forgiving him as being nothing more than a stupid arrogant kid who screwed up bigger than any of us ever will (hopefully) then I would hope the state would be able to give him an appropriate sentence, not an unabashedly overblown sentence to appease people who were completely uninvolved (us wonderful voters). Political points as a "hard-nosed judge" are simply worth more than human lives I guess.
Lets pray none of us ever get crucified for our biggest mistakes, at least.
Well, if I took a life in the commission of a felony, then I would expect to either be sentenced to death or life. There are consequences for our actions, he's now going to face what his callous actions caused. He's been given life, but I didn't see where it's life without chance of parole.
Forgiving someone is one thing, punishment for a crime upon society, is another.
Where's daddy?
You know I'm starting to wonder where his parents were. When I was 16, there is no way I could have murdered anyone. My parents knew where I was going and who I was with at all times. And they didn't like them, I could not hang out with them period.The pictures of him crying is heartbreaking, but you play, you pay. I knew at 16 that robbery and murder was wrong, so I'm sure he did too.
Andy:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me you're thinking about how you'd feel if it were you going to prison, when you talk about guilt, and trying to get a job as an ex-con, and all that. The thug population doesn't give a crap about any of that, IMO. If anything, it's reason to go right back to doing what got them put them in jail in the first place. They sure as hell don't value other peoples lives either. And this kid, who they want to paint as "having had a lapse in judgement" or whatever, knew exactly what he was getting into from the start, because he wanted to show the world how badass he was. I actually got really pissed off when I saw the headline; because the criminal element in Jacksonville seems to be a special kind of stupid, so I feel NO sympathy for ANY of them, even if the sentence is too harsh. Screw them.
My point is that nobody knows for sure, if a murderer sees the light of day again, will he kill again? Because when and if they do, the question becomes "well why the hell did they let him out the first time?" We ask people to pass judgement on other people, in an attempt to make society safer for all of us. Sometimes--well plenty times--we're going to get it wrong. But it's really the best we can do.
I don't know if a life sentence (and yeah, he'll likely be paroled before that) is the right way to go. Again, no one can really know if a sentence is the right one. My personal opinion is "eye for an eye". And at this point, I don't favor any type of reform. I prefer deterrence, and the electric chair over lethal injection. Maybe my opinions will change if it happens to me, but I don't suppose I'll do something as f***ed up as this kid, either.
It's true that letting a murderer out of prison should not be taken lightly, because there IS a chance that he will go back to that element. But there are other factors worth noting here.
For one, people grow up. This is a kid, not a repeat violent offender. We have no reason to believe that he will want to play gangster again once he gets out, or if he will want to work off his guilt and become a valuable member of society. Rehabilitation is a dumb buzz word, but it represents something true: that sometimes the prison time, the time removed from society results in a change of heart, when a person realizes what risks they take, both with their own lives and others.
Quote
And this kid, who they want to paint as "having had a lapse in judgement" or whatever, knew exactly what he was getting into from the start, because he wanted to show the world how badass he was.
"Knowing exactly what you're getting into" and "accidentally shooting a person to death" are not the same thing. He knew he was getting into robbery and bullshit posturing for his thugged out friends, but we're told the actual shooting was an accident. You can call BS on that if you'd like, but I personally buy it. A 16 year old kid may be deep in the drug game mentality already, but this kid wasn't doing anything with drugs. He was trying to rob a pizza delivery person. I think it WAS an accident, albeit by way of intentional attempt to get a little money and posture for his friends. But it was
still an accident. And that can't be discounted.
Quote
The thug population doesn't give a crap about any of that, IMO. If anything, it's reason to go right back to doing what got them put them in jail in the first place.
A large portion of these repeat offenders we talk about are
forced back into their former lives by circumstance. We can't
just punish someone and expect them to become good members of society. They need something to come back to, someplace to work and survive off of that will accept their past transgressions. Because if we don't the drug trade surely will. We have to offer punishment
and opportunity both if we expect the cycle to break. It's not right to color all of these offenders as a group when so many of them would get out of the violence if they had the chance. Life in prison alleviates the need by total and complete removal... but at the cost of keeping the potential productive members of society locked up and fighting for their lives.
QuoteWe ask people to pass judgement on other people, in an attempt to make society safer for all of us. Sometimes--well plenty times--we're going to get it wrong. But it's really the best we can do.
I disagree. We can do better than being told we have to "make an example" of a teen who screwed up in a big way. We can give a person fair sentence based on what happened, not based on political points, reputation and the need to look "harsh on thugs." And not based on how we expect
anyone else to react to the story for that matter. And we can give ex cons more assistance when they are dropped back into he world after thirty or forty years of fighting to survive in prison. We can give them a new shot at a decent life, if for no other reason than to
prevent another gangster rejoining the street.
Quote
I don't know if a life sentence (and yeah, he'll likely be paroled before that) is the right way to go. Again, no one can really know if a sentence is the right one. My personal opinion is "eye for an eye".
If you can name a time in a conflict when one person retaliated against the other and then the fight just ended because they were "even," please let me know. If your kid hits his classmate, should you allow the classmate to hit back? And do you expect the conflict to end once your eyes are averted? This ideal is incompatible with justice, because it in itself endorses injustice, via retaliation. My best guess at an alternative is removal and then granting of empowerment. Remove the dangers to society for a reasonable time, and then put it back with the tools and parts they need to work correctly. That's what I think anyway, and it certainly seems better than the old "eye for an eye" adage.
I disagree with almost everything you've said, but I do appreciate the civil tongue. It's rare in internet debates.
I was more impressed with ability of both families to come together during the most intense outcome.
I'm reading more of a positive message about humanity and understanding than a negative message in the sentence handed down.
True, we don't know he will go back to that element, but we don't know that he won't either. That's the gamble you take every time you try to rehablitate. Not that I don't think rehabilitation works for some people, I prefer to err on the side of caution. "Sometimes" isn't good enough for me.
I don't agree with providing an ex-con with a way back into society, or their being forced back into their old lives due to circumstances, either. If you murder someone, you have forfeited your right to the pursuit of happiness and all that because you took somebody else's. The onus is on YOU to prove yourself worthy of rejoining society; it's not my job to provide you with an alternative--the path you chose NOT to take in the first place--to stop you from going back to a life of crime. Even the poorest American doesn't have it as bad as the Have-nots in third world countries. They look for a way out, knowing that if they don't, they will die. So...circumstances, shmircumstances.
I guess I don't really know what a "fair" sentence is, because if it were my world, he'd at least get 20 years, and that whole time, he and everybody else in prison would basically be some form of indentured servant/slave until their sentence was up or they committed suicide. That'd save countless tax dollars on various city functions country-wide. Cruel? Maybe. But again, I don't care; I think we as a society are desensitized to just how terrible murder is.
Oh, and if I had a kid who started a fight, then yes, I would expect the other kid to hit him back. And if that kid "finishes" the fight my offspring initiated, then that's what he deserves; I'd punish him after I made fun of him. That's how conflicts used to get settled when our parent were kids. And it usually got the job done.
Well there's no point in being a total ass when you disagree. Maybe the other guy might have a valid point you never thought of. But you're totally wrong on this one, though ;D
I think her deserves life in prison and should be given nothing but pizza to eat every day of his life.
Everyone forgetting the 10-20-life law?
10 years for pulling a gun during a crime
20 for firing that gun during a crime
25-life for injuring or killing someone with that gun during a crime
the judge simply followed state laws.
Quote from: Bill Ectric on June 04, 2010, 12:16:49 PM
I think he deserves life in prison and should be given nothing but pizza to eat every day of his life.
:D :D :D :D :D :D :D
That little POS is crying? He should be giving death by pizza oven.
This reminds me of a similiar crime that happened about 1-2 years ago in Columbia SC. A young guy, about 15-16 that had been a good kid basically, started to fall into the wrong crowd and tried to pull off a pizza delivery armed robbery with his buddies.
In this case, the delivery guy either had a gun or took the one that was pulled on him. The driver shot the young kid. The kid bleed out yelling 'I don't want to die' while his buddies hauled ass.
By comparison, that kid made out worse than the Jax kid. Parents, always know who your kids are hanging out with and what they are doing. The Columbia kid had both parents at home, and had good grades too. Don't think it can't happen to your kid.
One other lesson to learn, is ALWAYS give up the cash. It's not worth the life of anyone, even a thug.
I was robbed at gunpoint in college, while delivering for Dominoes. I lived to tell about it, and that's what I did.
Speaking of parents, what do you all think about the other teen in this case that recieved 25 years for his role? Evidently, he could not participate in the robbery that night because it was later than his father's curfew.
2 more teens sentenced to prison in Jacksonville pizza driver's deathQuoteSams also was involved in both robberies and provided the gun Hartley used to kill Hotham. He wasn’t present the night Hotham died because he had to be home to obey his father’s curfew.
Hotham’s sister, Roxanne Tweedy, said after court she accepted the apologies from the teens and their families. She said justice was served by their sentences in light of each one’s culpability.
Byrd told Hotham’s family he takes full responsibility for her murder and the robbery attempt.
“Even though it might not make any difference, I’m sorry,†he said.
Sams, who learned of the murder on the news, said he immediately felt bad because “someone had lost their mother.â€
“If I hadn’t given my cousin the gun, she would be here today,†he told Hotham’s family.
full article: http://jacksonville.com/news/crime/2010-06-03/story/2-more-teens-sentenced-prison-jacksonville-pizza-drivers-death
Quote from: vicupstate on June 04, 2010, 08:19:41 PM
One other lesson to learn, is ALWAYS give up the cash. It's not worth the life of anyone, even a thug.
I was robbed at gunpoint in college, while delivering for Dominoes. I lived to tell about it, and that's what I did.
Mmm...no thanks. I refuse to be a victim if I can help it.
Quote from: vicupstate on June 04, 2010, 08:19:41 PM
One other lesson to learn, is ALWAYS give up the cash. It's not worth the life of anyone, even a thug.
I was robbed at gunpoint in college, while delivering for Dominoes. I lived to tell about it, and that's what I did.
You weren't allowed to carry more than 20 bucks. Were they happy with the change? (glad you survived that!)
Quote from: NotNow on June 04, 2010, 11:26:59 PM
Quote from: vicupstate on June 04, 2010, 08:19:41 PM
One other lesson to learn, is ALWAYS give up the cash. It's not worth the life of anyone, even a thug.
I was robbed at gunpoint in college, while delivering for Dominoes. I lived to tell about it, and that's what I did.
Mmm...no thanks. I refuse to be a victim if I can help it.
The best way to 'help it', is to drop the macho bravado bullshit, and realize your life means more than some dough and some 'dough'. The ones that you leave behind, ain't going to be comforted by your idot 'bravery'.
All I can say is...that's what he gets! I don't care what anyone says...the Parents are to blame for the kids ending up this way; why? Because they are kids and when they come in this world they know ABSOLUTELY NOTHING! The first 18 years of their life they rely on their Parents, and other "should be" responsible Adults around them, to teach them responsibility for their actions, right from wrong, how to stay out of trouble, and the consequences of their actions whether right or wrong! Yes it's a shame that he got what he got, and he ended up the way he ended up, but a human life has been taken and someone's Father, Uncle, Brother, Cousin etc. is no longer here to be enjoyed...yes, THAT'S WHAT HE GETS!
"HU"
Quote from: vicupstate on June 05, 2010, 08:19:40 AM
Quote from: NotNow on June 04, 2010, 11:26:59 PM
Quote from: vicupstate on June 04, 2010, 08:19:41 PM
One other lesson to learn, is ALWAYS give up the cash. It's not worth the life of anyone, even a thug.
I was robbed at gunpoint in college, while delivering for Dominoes. I lived to tell about it, and that's what I did.
Mmm...no thanks. I refuse to be a victim if I can help it.
The best way to 'help it', is to drop the macho bravado bullshit, and realize your life means more than some dough and some 'dough'. The ones that you leave behind, ain't going to be comforted by your idot 'bravery'.
Oh it's not "macho bravado bullshit". I get scared all the time. It is principle. If it is possible to resist, I will.
Please don't call me "idot".
Vicup,
I do not mean to be disrespectful to your point of view. But mine is every bit as valid. There are many things worth fighting for. Each individual has to decide for themselves, based on their own principles and values, what is worth placing themselves at risk to protect. Many good people have died protecting only an IDEA. It really comes down to what an individual values.
I also highlighted in red, if possible to resist in the case of robbery. I realize now that my original post could have been taken as a criticism of your action, and I did not mean it to be. Without an opportunity to resist, I would take exactly the same action as you.
I hope that this post clarifies my thoughts on this subject.
Quote from: stephendare on June 05, 2010, 10:32:44 AM
Yes, please do not call people idiots. It is namecalling and it violates our rules of civility.
It is ok to say that this kind of action is idiotic, but not to call someone directly an idiot. :)
Although to be fair, it seems that the comment is directed towards a breed of 'bravery' rather than an individual. I think that the possessive pronoun your idiot bravery makes it awfully close, however.
So censuring political ideas could be called...a cowardly act? :D