I was going to use a typical Metro Jacksonville headline like:
"OBAMA ADMINISTRATION ALLOWS TERRORISM - IDIOTS
But I just couldn't make myself do it.
http://abcnews.go.com/print?id=10748953
EXCLUSIVE: Terror Attacks Against U.S. At All-Time High
DHS Report Says Pace May Increase And Include More Homegrown Extremists
By RICHARD ESPOSITO and PIERRE THOMAS
May 26, 2010 â€"
The pace and number of attempted terror attacks against the U.S. over the past nine months has surpassed the number of attempts during any previous one-year period, according to an internal Department of Homeland Security report issued on Friday, May 21.
The report notes chillingly that while US officials "lack insights" they believe that "operatives are in the country and could advance plotting with little or no warning."
The DHS "Intelligence Note," a short, non-classified report, makes concrete the concerns of a number of homeland security experts who have discussed with ABC News the pace and nature of the individual attempts. The report notes that al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula and the Pakistani Taliban have "expanded their focus" to include the United States.
Homeland Security and law enforcement officials interviewed by ABC News on the condition their names not be used are concerned that the pace will continue to ramp up and that increasingly the attackers will be difficult-to-detect homegrown extremists.
"Recent attempted attacks and plots in the United States progressed to an advanced stage largely because of these groups' ability to use operatives that have access and familiarity with the U.S. and their employment of new and varied attack plans," the three-page note concludes.
"Public statements highlighting group leaders' intent to strike & and probable terrorist perception of success in challenging the U.S. even through failed attacks, suggest al Qaeda and associated groups will try to conduct operations in the United States with increased frequency."
The attacks included the alleged May 1 attempt by Faisal Shahzad to detonate a car bomb in Times Square and the attempted Christmas Eve bombing of a Northwest Airlines Flight 253 by a suspect who managed to carry high powered explosives aboard the aircraft concealed in his underwear. In each attempt, U.S. intelligence failed to detect and prevent the attacks and it was only through failures in the construction of the improvised explosive devices that the attacks did not cause mass causalities.
More worrisome even that these attacks -- both of which involve suspects who allegedly spent time at terror camps abroad -- is the possibility, states the DHS document, of "an attack strategy that does not rely on outside support or travel abroad," which "diminishes opportunities for discovery and disruption."
The DHS document also warns that both the Northwest 253 and Times Square incidents, like attempts several prior successful and attempted attacks, featured a link between the terror suspects and radical Muslim cleric Anwar Awlaki, who was born in the U.S. but is now based in Yemen. The charismatic preacher, called by the report a "violent extremist ideologue," is now the subject of a widely reported manhunt by the US in an effort to kill him. It is a highly unusual measure for the U.S. to take against a U.S. born target.
CLICK HERE to follow the ABC News Investigative Team's coverage on Twitter.
In the eyes of a number of U.S. officials, Awlaki has become at least as powerful as Osama bin Laden in his ability to inspire attempts to attack the U.S. homeland. On March 17th, the DHS report notes, Awlaki "urged all Muslims to conduct 'jihad' against America and praised the actions of accused Fort Hood shooter Nidal Hasan. Hasan, who is charged with multiple counts of murder and attempted murder in the November spree, which killed 13 at a Texas Army base, was in touch with Awlaki by email repeatedly prior to the assault.
What a "coincidence",Republicans are out of power and number of "terrorist attacks" has increased.
If you call copycat lousy unemployed sexually frustrated guy as terrorist.
A
What makes you think they are talking about "right wing" homegrown extremists? Could it be your own bias that is reading that into an article that points out the Islamic terror attempts over the past year? Is it possible that they mean home grown islamic extremist such as the most recent Times Square suspect?
What "right wing" terrorist event happened over the last year?
And Bos, consider that it is not a coincidence. Maybe our enemies feel emboldened for some reason.
Quote from: stephendare on May 27, 2010, 04:46:42 PM
Notice that the many of these are expected to come from the American Right Wing:
Quote
Homeland Security and law enforcement officials interviewed by ABC News on the condition their names not be used are concerned that the pace will continue to ramp up and that increasingly the attackers will be difficult-to-detect homegrown extremists.
"Recent attempted attacks and plots in the United States progressed to an advanced stage largely because of these groups' ability to use operatives that have access and familiarity with the U.S. and their employment of new and varied attack plans," the three-page note concludes.
With the right wing joining the foreign terrorists, that would be an increase to pay attention to.
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, no shit huh?
QuoteHomeland Security Report Warns Of Rising Right-Wing Extremism
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/04/14/homeland-security-report_n_186834.html
Quote
If you think the conservative "Tea Party" movement is daunting, take a look at a new report issued by the Department of Homeland Security that says right-wing extremism is on the rise throughout the country.
QuoteAnti-immigration: “Rightwing extremist groups’ frustration over a perceived lack of government action on illegal immigration has the potential to incite individuals or small groups toward violence. If such violence were to occur, it likely would be isolated, small-scale, and directed at specific immigration-related targets.â€
Recruiting returning vets: “Rightwing extremists will attempt to recruit and radicalize returning veterans in order to exploit their skills and knowledge derived from military training and combat.â€
Gun-related violence: “Heightened interest in legislation for tighter firearms...may be invigorating rightwing extremist activity, specifically the white supremacist and militia movements.â€
You seriously dont remember the backlash to the DHS report?
Seriously though, I make damn sure I am wearing my seat belt because other motorists are actually a threat to my well being, lol, terrorists, seriously? The guy with the bomb in his panties, seriously? I know, I will probably die from prostate cancer before a terror attack gets the best of me, or maybe a piano will fall on my head while I am walking down a city street! Or, maybe I will take the odds that something will happen to me during a terror attack and use them to optimistically buy lottery tickets, you know, because the chances of winning are better and all!
(http://homepage.mac.com/yingloon/images/amstPiano.jpg)
LOL.... Terrorist attack, BOOOOOOO!!!!
Yep, I remember the report issued by the Obama administration that warned of "right wing" extremism. They even warned about veterans coming home. Made themselves out to look like a bunch of bozo's. There has been no such thing. And the Tea Party has shown itself to be peaceful and law abiding, like normal concerned American citizens. Yet they are disparaged by the White House and it's lackies as well as you and StephenDare! You should be ashamed of yourselves for such biased, prejudiced, political mud slinging.
Your exhibition of bravery is wasted here. Show it to the families of the 3000 people who died on 09/11/01. Or the families of the 17 brave sailors on the USS Cole who lost their lives. Go say BOO! to the families of the 300 killed and the 5000 wounded in the African embassy attacks. Say LOL! to all of the families of those brave people who have lost their lives protecting your sorry ass from the same threat. Idiot. I have grown used to hearing that kind of thankless drivel from those on here who have never sacrificed more than standing for the National Anthem and have never heard a shot fired in anger, but I can't believe a Devil Dog would ever say such a stupid thing. :(
If our administrations ever wanted to reduce terrorism, they stop giving people a reason to reduce themselves to such a weak persuasion.
"They attack us because they hate our freedoms."
^A more idiotic excuse in the history of human language does not exist.
How do you "reduce" terrorism Jim? Many in this country will tell you that if we would just pull out of the Middle East and not support Israel, (in other words, give up) we would be "safe". Do you think that is true? Do you think that if we just do as we are told that these nice people will just leave us alone? Does anybody really believe that?
Holy cow folks! you don't even have to go far. If you want, we will give you the addresses of mosques in Tampa and Miami where you can hear how much you are hated for yourselves. Oh, I forgot, you won't be allowed in.
Quote from: NotNow on May 27, 2010, 07:49:24 PM
How do you "reduce" terrorism Jim? Many in this country will tell you that if we would just pull out of the Middle East and not support Israel, (in other words, give up) we would be "safe". Do you think that is true? Do you think that if we just do as we are told that these nice people will just leave us alone? Does anybody really believe that?
Holy cow folks! you don't even have to go far. If you want, we will give you the addresses of mosques in Tampa and Miami where you can hear how much you are hated for yourselves. Oh, I forgot, you won't be allowed in.
Do as we're told? No. But change policy.
Can you give me 1 valid reason they attack us so fervently yet leave Canada alone? Why aren't they attacking Australia? Why not attack Brazil? They don't seem to be giving Japan much problems? And on and on.
So why are we singled out? What is it about us that makes them "hate" us over those other nations? I'll tell you...foreign policy.
We are the biggest threat to our own safety and until we realize that and make policy changes to reflect it...we walk around with a big bulls eye on our backs.
And maybe those terrorist work for CIA in first place and their job is to "attack" USA for good TV.
Those terrorists don't have balls or time to go after Serbs or Saddam but they will pick on weaker USA.
Failed terror attacks at an all time high... isn't that a good thing?
And remember that DHS has an existential self interest in exaggerating threats. Just sayin'. Grain of salt.
Every time I go through security at the airport and forget to take out my toothpaste they probably count it as a terror attack.
Of course the article did not say that NN, but thats just Stephen as usual parroting the liberal tripe once again.
They love to use McVeigh and say that he was linked to "right-wing militias" but what they don't tell you is that he tried to get in but they denied his requests. So he is "linked".
How about a recent case (this year) where a attack was made?
QuoteThe case of Joseph Stack is similarly instructive. On February 18, the computer software developer intentionally crashed his private airplane into an office complex in Austin, Texas, killing himself and an office manager for the Internal Revenue Service. Thirteen others were injured. Stack’s suicide note â€" a rambling rant against the IRS, corporations, and the supposed injustices he had endured â€" was immediately seized upon by politicos on the Left and their allies in the media to proclaim Stack a poster boy for the burgeoning Tea Party movement.
QuoteOf course, it turns out that Joe Stack was no “right-winger†at all, and had no connection to any Tea Party group. From what can be pieced together from his rantings, he could be more accurately described as a left-winger, a textbook example of Marxist “alienation.†He rages against capitalism, banks, insurance companies, drug companies, Wall Street, President Bush, the Catholic Church … and yes, the IRS. Stack ends his long-winded suicide note with this apparent paean to Karl Marx, author of the Communist Manifesto
http://www.thenewamerican.com/index.php/usnews/politics/3513-media-bias-demonizing-the-right
Stephen, the falsehoods lay with you. The article that he posted did not state it and he did not imply it.
Nothing surprising there.
Quote from: stephendare on May 27, 2010, 09:58:47 PM
Quote from: Sigma on May 27, 2010, 09:57:12 PM
Stephen, the falsehoods lay with you. The article that he posted did not state it and he did not imply it.
Nothing surprising there.
hmm. still in crazy land arent ya?
are you claiming that mcveigh wasnt a veteran, wasnt right wing and wasnt from the us?
Stop trying to twist my words Stevo, you clearly misrepresented the article that NotNow posted and made a statement about what NN implied.
I was not referring to MCVeigh, who I agree was a psycho. The article talks about recent events, which is what I posted, a recent event.
Quote from: stephendare on May 27, 2010, 07:50:23 PM
Quote from: NotNow on May 27, 2010, 07:30:10 PM
Yep, I remember the report issued by the Obama administration that warned of "right wing" extremism. They even warned about veterans coming home. Made themselves out to look like a bunch of bozo's. There has been no such thing. And the Tea Party has shown itself to be peaceful and law abiding, like normal concerned American citizens. Yet they are disparaged by the White House and it's lackies as well as you and StephenDare! You should be ashamed of yourselves for such biased, prejudiced, political mud slinging.
Your exhibition of bravery is wasted here. Show it to the families of the 3000 people who died on 09/11/01. Or the families of the 17 brave sailors on the USS Cole who lost their lives. Go say BOO! to the families of the 300 killed and the 5000 wounded in the African embassy attacks. Say LOL! to all of the families of those brave people who have lost their lives protecting your sorry ass from the same threat. Idiot. I have grown used to hearing that kind of thankless drivel from those on here who have never sacrificed more than standing for the National Anthem and have never heard a shot fired in anger, but I can't believe a Devil Dog would ever say such a stupid thing. :(
Yeah, boy, those idiots in the Clinton Administration sure got it wrong on the Oklahoma City Bombing, didnt they?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_McVeigh
QuoteTimothy James McVeigh (April 23, 1968 – June 11, 2001) was a United States Army veteran and former security guard who was convicted of detonating a truck bomb in front of the Alfred P. Murrah Building in Oklahoma City on April 19, 1995, killing 168 people, including 19 children under the age of six. It was the deadliest act of terrorism within the United States prior to the September 11, 2001 attacks,[3] and is referred to as the Oklahoma City bombing. McVeigh, a militia movement sympathizer, sought revenge against the federal government for the Waco Siege which had ended in the deaths of 76 people exactly two years earlier. He also hoped to inspire a revolt against what he considered a tyrannical federal government. He was convicted of 11 federal offenses, sentenced to death, and executed on June 11, 2001. Terry Nichols and Michael Fortier were also convicted in the plot.
I don't know what peyote patch you did yoga in this morning, NotNow, but your post doesnt have much going on in the way of reality based discussion. I was actually quoting the report that you yourself posted.
But I guess this is as good an example as any about how nicely hinged the right wing is.
My point, Sir, was that the story did not refer to any "right wing" anything. That was your considerable bias.
My question was what "right wing" terror has occured since the Obama administration sought to warn us of the danger?
Quote from: Jim on May 27, 2010, 08:09:33 PM
Quote from: NotNow on May 27, 2010, 07:49:24 PM
How do you "reduce" terrorism Jim? Many in this country will tell you that if we would just pull out of the Middle East and not support Israel, (in other words, give up) we would be "safe". Do you think that is true? Do you think that if we just do as we are told that these nice people will just leave us alone? Does anybody really believe that?
Holy cow folks! you don't even have to go far. If you want, we will give you the addresses of mosques in Tampa and Miami where you can hear how much you are hated for yourselves. Oh, I forgot, you won't be allowed in.
Do as we're told? No. But change policy.
Can you give me 1 valid reason they attack us so fervently yet leave Canada alone? Why aren't they attacking Australia? Why not attack Brazil? They don't seem to be giving Japan much problems? And on and on.
So why are we singled out? What is it about us that makes them "hate" us over those other nations? I'll tell you...foreign policy.
We are the biggest threat to our own safety and until we realize that and make policy changes to reflect it...we walk around with a big bulls eye on our backs.
They attack us for the same reasons they attack the British, the French, and the Russians. We stop their aggression. We are the leading voices against their stated purpose. Like I said, we can pull back within our borders and abandon Israel. We might avoid being attacked for a while. But our children will be fighting them here, IMHO.
Holy Crap! CIA is behind all terrorist? Record failed attacks a good thing? Toothpaste? Can you people hear yourselves? Bos is probably nuts but what the heck are the rest of you thinking? I expect StephenDare! to do his usual evil Republican rant as well but his world is very small and it is occupied by only two kinds of people. It is surprising that even a liberal bunch such as those that populate this site can not see reality.
Jim, I know you to be a reasonable man. What policies do you think we should change? How well is appeasement working in North Korea?
Quote from: NotNow on May 27, 2010, 07:30:10 PM
Yep, I remember the report issued by the Obama administration that warned of "right wing" extremism. They even warned about veterans coming home. Made themselves out to look like a bunch of bozo's. There has been no such thing. And the Tea Party has shown itself to be peaceful and law abiding, like normal concerned American citizens. Yet they are disparaged by the White House and it's lackies as well as you and StephenDare! You should be ashamed of yourselves for such biased, prejudiced, political mud slinging.
Your exhibition of bravery is wasted here. Show it to the families of the 3000 people who died on 09/11/01. Or the families of the 17 brave sailors on the USS Cole who lost their lives. Go say BOO! to the families of the 300 killed and the 5000 wounded in the African embassy attacks. Say LOL! to all of the families of those brave people who have lost their lives protecting your sorry ass from the same threat. Idiot. I have grown used to hearing that kind of thankless drivel from those on here who have never sacrificed more than standing for the National Anthem and have never heard a shot fired in anger, but I can't believe a Devil Dog would ever say such a stupid thing. :(
Just stop, please just stop for a minute and think about my words and put them in context. I cant believe I have to go backward to this point.
It is terrible when an innocent person dies, and I would NEVER attempt to tell anyone affected, I mean really affected by a terrorist attack how they should or shouldn't feel. I will not ever live in fear of anything, especially not to honor the memory of others. Fear is dangerous and it makes people do extremely stupid things, like defile the constitution, break international laws, commit war crimes and start illegal wars of aggression. Their pain and the damage inflicted on those individuals is not worth a nation paralyzed by fear and it is damn sure not worth killing other innocent people, no matter how brown they are. Unfortunately for your stupid attempt, I do not do guilt well either.
If you want to live in fear NN, go for it, I will not be imprisoned by a most basic of human emotions, nope, not gonna happen.
Now on to you and those who think like you! It is despicable that you all use terrorism and fear, as well as the memories of dead innocents and American heroes to further your political agenda.
Does anyone know how many of these terrorist attacks have been by right wingers? By my count you have two Muslim extremists, the pantie bomber and the weekend griller in Times Square. Now, lets see, we had the fuck wad that flew his plane into the IRS building, the nut job that killed Dr. Tiller, and the geriatric that attacked the Holocaust Museum. Of course there was also the Military shrink who happened to be Muslim but I think was American born that killed a bunch of troops, arguably a home grown terrorist.
Quote from: NotNow on May 27, 2010, 11:13:23 PM
Holy Crap! CIA is behind all terrorist? Record failed attacks a good thing? Toothpaste? Can you people hear yourselves? Bos is probably nuts but what the heck are the rest of you thinking? I expect StephenDare! to do his usual evil Republican rant as well but his world is very small and it is occupied by only two kinds of people. It is surprising that even a liberal bunch such as those that populate this site can not see reality.
Jim, I know you to be a reasonable man. What policies do you think we should change? How well is appeasement working in North Korea?
There are basic premises that you cant understand simply because you don't understand the even more basic ones. Like, people don't appreciate American corporations exploiting them for their resources, they also don't like America meddling in their politics, killing their leaders and empowering puppets. They RESPOND WITH VIOLENCE when this happens. When 9/11 happened the chickens were coming home to roost, you can call me whatever unpatriotic blah blah you want but it is simply the truth! And until AMERICA can ACKNOWLEDGE the AFFECTS of its FOREIGN POLICY and change them, we will be burying our troops and innocent civilians!
Who is using this for political purposes? I posted an article about a steep rise in attacks on Americans by radical Islamist. StphenDare! did his usual and ignored the facts in the article in order to fit his bias in. He wanted to (like he always does) make a POLITICAL statement. You jumped on board with him and clearly wrote a post that minimized any danger from terrrorist. I reminded you of those that sacrificed.
I am not asking anyone to live in fear. I am asking them to be aware and realistic about the world we live in. I am not the one that calls other people whatever "winger" I want.
You might want to review your statements on some recent attacks. The IRS attack was a left leaning nut (although I wouldn't blame the Democrats for that nut job). And your home grown Army Major was a radicalized Muslim, which makes MY point, not yours.
Your post was still insulting and disrespectful. You should apologize.
Quote from: JC on May 27, 2010, 11:20:31 PM
Quote from: NotNow on May 27, 2010, 11:13:23 PM
Holy Crap! CIA is behind all terrorist? Record failed attacks a good thing? Toothpaste? Can you people hear yourselves? Bos is probably nuts but what the heck are the rest of you thinking? I expect StephenDare! to do his usual evil Republican rant as well but his world is very small and it is occupied by only two kinds of people. It is surprising that even a liberal bunch such as those that populate this site can not see reality.
Jim, I know you to be a reasonable man. What policies do you think we should change? How well is appeasement working in North Korea?
There are basic premises that you cant understand simply because you don't understand the even more basic ones. Like, people don't appreciate American corporations exploiting them for their resources, they also don't like America meddling in their politics, killing their leaders and empowering puppets. They RESPOND WITH VIOLENCE when this happens. When 9/11 happened the chickens were coming home to roost, you can call me whatever unpatriotic blah blah you want but it is simply the truth! And until AMERICA can ACKNOWLEDGE the AFFECTS of its FOREIGN POLICY and change them, we will be burying our troops and innocent civilians!
You didn't have to tell me. I know you think that the deaths of innocent Americans is the fault of America with out having to hear it from you directly. You think they were "exploited"? You think it is OUR fault that 3000 people were killed by flying commercial airliners filled with innocent civilians into buildings filled with innocent civilians? You think it is OUR fault that a boat full of explosives was placed next to the USS Cole while on a port visit in a friendly nation?
"When 9/11 happened the chickens were coming home to roost", Huh?
I think I understand perfectly. You are an idiot.
Quote from: NotNow on May 27, 2010, 11:13:23 PM
Jim, I know you to be a reasonable man. What policies do you think we should change? How well is appeasement working in North Korea?
Do not confuse appeasement with a reduction in political incursions.
It's a simple piece of logic. All the places that hate us are the same places that we stick our political noses in. And we don't just meddle around a little, we've helped topple popular regimes and put into power friends who ironically are now our enemies, etc...
Look how much hatred our government gets from its own people just for the intrusion it does upon ourselves. Now multiply that hatred a hundred fold when applied to far worse intrusion from a government 7,000 miles away.
Russia? Go look at the Russian Afghan War. The UK? To the Middle East, that's just US state number 51.
Hate is an emotional response. It's triggered by something. Hate is not a naturally induced emotion without a stimuli. You cannot hate to the point of taking life (including your own) without an incredibly intense cause.
Too many people in Washington want us to believe that trigger, that cause is the simple fact we are free. Anyone that's ever taken a psychology course, even in high school, can tell those poeple in DC either have no idea what they are talking about or, worse still, know we are the cause but choose to hide it.
NN, I love our country. I just don't love the way we assume we are a God established global police that can without repercussions enact our will against the world.
The funny thing is that Osama Bin Laden even told us all this many times over. The guys tells us why they attack us and morons like Rudolf Giuliani and Ben Stein call it the most ridiculous thing they've ever heard. Fun fact: They both said that exact same thing word for word in regards to the exact same question 3 years apart. Now that's one hell of a coincidence.
Stop banging the neighbors wife and your neighbor might stop trying to kill you. Sounds logical to me.
NotNow
I just wanted to say God bless all the proud men and women that have served or are serving our country.
Quote from: NotNow on May 27, 2010, 11:30:20 PM
Who is using this for political purposes? I posted an article about a steep rise in attacks on Americans by radical Islamist. StphenDare! did his usual and ignored the facts in the article in order to fit his bias in. He wanted to (like he always does) make a POLITICAL statement. You jumped on board with him and clearly wrote a post that minimized any danger from terrrorist. I reminded you of those that sacrificed.
I am not asking anyone to live in fear. I am asking them to be aware and realistic about the world we live in. I am not the one that calls other people whatever "winger" I want.
You might want to review your statements on some recent attacks. The IRS attack was a left leaning nut (although I wouldn't blame the Democrats for that nut job). And your home grown Army Major was a radicalized Muslim, which makes MY point, not yours.
Your post was still insulting and disrespectful. You should apologize.
I should apologize because you extrapolated what all from my post and became outraged? Thats what you think I should do? I honorably served my country in the Marine Corps, I am ENTITLED to be critical of America and its foreign policies. I have also witnessed the military do some stupid things.
A little anecdote
I was stationed in Beaufort SC on the air station. When you pull onto base you present an ID along with your visible DOD sticker on your windshield. Once your on base you are free to go anywhere accept the flight line, there is a second gate for that. In order to access the flight line you had to have (I am sure there is some technological advancement now) a green ID card, a blue or red DOD sticker and a sticker on your ID card which showed you had clearance to enter the flight line. When you go through the flight gate enough times the MPs start to recognize your car and usually wave you through (a security violation for sure) also, and I have done this when I forgot my ID, you can present something green, about the size of an ID card and they would wave you through, something like the Marlboro Menthol's I used to smoke. Anyway, life was great, getting off and on the flight line was relatively simple and then one day I left my barracks parking lot to enter a mile long line of traffic moving very slowly trying to get onto the flight line. After creeping along for 45 minutes I got to the gate and asked the guard why he had made me 40 minutes late. He said "today is the anniversary of the bombing of the Marine Barracks in Lebanon and we are checking everyone's IDs" I asked "are you fucking kidding me?" he said, "sadly no." How about that? What make you of MAG 31s decision to act like such dumb asses? Normally you can just slip by with a pack of smokes but today, oh today, things are going to be tightened up!
You have in a very week attempt tried to make it seem as though I have done something wrong, first off those men and women who are dying in Iraq and Afghanistan are not doing so to protect me, you and they may think they are but they are dying for OIL and GLOBAL DOMINANCE, not NATIONAL DEFENSE. The people who died on 9/11 are more the victim of Americas foreign policy than terrorists and although I am sympathetic to them as fellow humans, I will not let their tragedy scare me into doing something stupid.
Truth be told NN, your arguments disgust me, they are the essence of what is wrong with America, they are the reason we are having the foreign policy nightmare we are having right now. They are the reason for wars, death and destruction and people who think like you are scared, you are basic and primitive and unfortunately for me you and yours will be around until evolution takes care of you, until the primitive scared part of our brains are evolved away! It is good to see you are in the minority on this forum, but keep on keepin on NN, maybe you will convince someone of something!
Quote from: NotNow on May 27, 2010, 11:42:51 PM
You didn't have to tell me. I know you think that the deaths of innocent Americans is the fault of America with out having to hear it from you directly. You think they were "exploited"? You think it is OUR fault that 3000 people were killed by flying commercial airliners filled with innocent civilians into buildings filled with innocent civilians? You think it is OUR fault that a boat full of explosives was placed next to the USS Cole while on a port visit in a friendly nation?
"When 9/11 happened the chickens were coming home to roost", Huh?
I think I understand perfectly. You are an idiot.
I know I have reached a good place in life when people like you can figure out that I am an idiot!
Quote from: Jim on May 27, 2010, 11:44:13 PM
Stop banging the neighbors wife and your neighbor might stop trying to kill you. Sounds logical to me.
Brilliant insight Jim!
Thank you Sam. And I say God bless to them as well. I have lost a few good friends, and I will think of them and pray for them this holiday weekend.
Jim, do you believe that if we completely pulled out of the Middle East, the region would be better off and we would not suffer any attacks by Muslim extremists? Do you think that they would see our withdrawal as weakness, and then press on attacks and demands for withdrawal of our support for Israel? Would it stop then? Or would the next demand be to but out in Pakistan when an Islamic government took over? Do you think that Iran is capable of using a nuclear weapon? What should be the response to that if they do? A UN resolution? An Israeli nuke response? An American nuke response or invasion?
The point of all these questions is to point out the fallicy of appeasement. Speak softly and carry a big stick.
Quote from: NotNow on May 27, 2010, 11:59:43 PM
Thank you Sam. And I say God bless to them as well. I have lost a few good friends, and I will think of them and pray for them this holiday weekend.
Jim, do you believe that if we completely pulled out of the Middle East, the region would be better off and we would not suffer any attacks by Muslim extremists?
Please dont pretend you give a shit about the Middle East on any other level than some paranoid need to feel safe and to have oil. Just stop, this concern for Mid Easterners is fake!
QuoteDo you think that they would see our withdrawal as weakness, and then press on attacks and demands for withdrawal of our support for Israel?
It would seem weak to some, but only to those who already "hate us for our freedoms" lol! Israel has nothing to do with the invasion of Iraq or Afghanistan, don't pretend like you know anything about Israel, because you don't know shit.
QuoteWould it stop then?
Would what stop?
QuoteOr would the next demand be to but out in Pakistan when an Islamic government took over?
Well since America enabled the Taliban who knows what they would do in Pakistan.
QuoteDo you think that Iran is capable of using a nuclear weapon?
Clearly they are not, or if they were and as crazy as some of YOU claim, they already would have!
QuoteWhat should be the response to that if they do? A UN resolution? An Israeli nuke response? An American nuke response or invasion?
Can you tell me the first and only country to ever use a nuclear weapon on a population?
QuoteThe point of all these questions is to point out the fallicy of appeasement. Speak softly and carry a big stick.
Just LOL... You are perpetuating a false argument here.
Quote from: JC on May 27, 2010, 11:52:25 PM
Quote from: NotNow on May 27, 2010, 11:30:20 PM
Who is using this for political purposes? I posted an article about a steep rise in attacks on Americans by radical Islamist. StphenDare! did his usual and ignored the facts in the article in order to fit his bias in. He wanted to (like he always does) make a POLITICAL statement. You jumped on board with him and clearly wrote a post that minimized any danger from terrrorist. I reminded you of those that sacrificed.
I am not asking anyone to live in fear. I am asking them to be aware and realistic about the world we live in. I am not the one that calls other people whatever "winger" I want.
You might want to review your statements on some recent attacks. The IRS attack was a left leaning nut (although I wouldn't blame the Democrats for that nut job). And your home grown Army Major was a radicalized Muslim, which makes MY point, not yours.
Your post was still insulting and disrespectful. You should apologize.
I should apologize because you extrapolated what all from my post and became outraged? That's what you think I should do? I honorably served my country in the Marine Corps, I am ENTITLED to be critical of America and its foreign policies. I have also witnessed the military do some stupid things.
A little anecdote
I was stationed in Beaufort SC on the air station. When you pull onto base you present an ID along with your visible DOD sticker on your windshield. Once your on base you are free to go anywhere accept the flight line, there is a second gate for that. In order to access the flight line you had to have (I am sure there is some technological advancement now) a green ID card, a blue or red DOD sticker and a sticker on your ID card which showed you had clearance to enter the flight line. When you go through the flight gate enough times the MPs start to recognize your car and usually wave you through (a security violation for sure) also, and I have done this when I forgot my ID, you can present something green, about the size of an ID card and they would wave you through, something like the Marlboro Menthol's I used to smoke. Anyway, life was great, getting off and on the flight line was relatively simple and then one day I left my barracks parking lot to enter a mile long line of traffic moving very slowly trying to get onto the flight line. After creeping along for 45 minutes I got to the gate and asked the guard why he had made me 40 minutes late. He said "today is the anniversary of the bombing of the Marine Barracks in Lebanon and we are checking everyone's IDs" I asked "are you fucking kidding me?" he said, "sadly no." How about that? What make you of MAG 31s decision to act like such dumb asses? Normally you can just slip by with a pack of smokes but today, oh today, things are going to be tightened up!
You have in a very week attempt tried to make it seem as though I have done something wrong, first off those men and women who are dying in Iraq and Afghanistan are not doing so to protect me, you and they may think they are but they are dying for OIL and GLOBAL DOMINANCE, not NATIONAL DEFENSE. The people who died on 9/11 are more the victim of Americas foreign policy than terrorists and although I am sympathetic to them as fellow humans, I will not let their tragedy scare me into doing something stupid.
Truth be told NN, your arguments disgust me, they are the essence of what is wrong with America, they are the reason we are having the foreign policy nightmare we are having right now. They are the reason for wars, death and destruction and people who think like you are scared, you are basic and primitive and unfortunately for me you and yours will be around until evolution takes care of you, until the primitive scared part of our brains are evolved away! It is good to see you are in the minority on this forum, but keep on keepin on NN, maybe you will convince someone of something!
Quote from: NotNow on May 27, 2010, 11:42:51 PM
You didn't have to tell me. I know you think that the deaths of innocent Americans is the fault of America with out having to hear it from you directly. You think they were "exploited"? You think it is OUR fault that 3000 people were killed by flying commercial airliners filled with innocent civilians into buildings filled with innocent civilians? You think it is OUR fault that a boat full of explosives was placed next to the USS Cole while on a port visit in a friendly nation?
"When 9/11 happened the chickens were coming home to roost", Huh?
I think I understand perfectly. You are an idiot.
I know I have reached a good place in life when people like you can figure out that I am an idiot!
Quote from: Jim on May 27, 2010, 11:44:13 PM
Stop banging the neighbors wife and your neighbor might stop trying to kill you. Sounds logical to me.
Brilliant insight Jim!
JC,
You are right. You are entitled to your opinion. I strongly disagree with you, and I am disappointed when I hear someone rattle of the "blame America" talking points.
Basic and primitive are probably good descriptors for me. Life has taught me that most things are pretty basic. If it walks like a duck, in real life it is probably a duck. Think of me as stupid or scared if you wish. I have spent my life under arms, and a few years on our present battlegrounds. I see people who want to hurt and take from others every day. The GI Bill even provided me with a BS degree so that I can cover a pretty good sized stain on my wall.
I'll agree to disagree with you. And I wouldn't share that 9/11 opinion of yours in any of the places that I frequent, if I were you.
A little education for you NN
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-FLIBkTg8g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbDMam_jGVk&feature=related
Quote from: NotNow on May 28, 2010, 12:12:19 AM
JC,
You are right. You are entitled to your opinion. I strongly disagree with you, and I am disappointed when I hear someone rattle of the "blame America" talking points.
Basic and primitive are probably good descriptors for me. Life has taught me that most things are pretty basic. If it walks like a duck, in real life it is probably a duck. Think of me as stupid or scared if you wish. I have spent my life under arms, and a few years on our present battlegrounds. I see people who want to hurt and take from others every day. The GI Bill even provided me with a BS degree so that I can cover a pretty good sized stain on my wall.
I'll agree to disagree with you. And I wouldn't share that 9/11 opinion of yours in any of the places that I frequent, if I were you.
What is it that makes you think America is above "blame" or question for its foreign policy decisions? The connections between the involved parties are not coincidence.
As I have said before, it is a terrible tragedy when an innocent person dies, I just dont make a distinction between innocent people from America or Iraq, Afghanistan, Japan or where ever.
Quote from: NotNow on May 28, 2010, 12:12:19 AM
I'll agree to disagree with you. And I wouldn't share that 9/11 opinion of yours in any of the places that I frequent, if I were you.
Can you please explain this point, are you threatening me because it surely seems like you are.
Re: Terror Attacks Against US At All-Time High
« Reply #32 on: Today at 12:11:53 AM » Quote
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Quote from: NotNow on Yesterday at 11:59:43 PM
Thank you Sam. And I say God bless to them as well. I have lost a few good friends, and I will think of them and pray for them this holiday weekend.
Jim, do you believe that if we completely pulled out of the Middle East, the region would be better off and we would not suffer any attacks by Muslim extremists?
Please dont pretend you give a shit about the Middle East on any other level than some paranoid need to feel safe and to have oil. Just stop, this concern for Mid Easterners is fake!
I am trying to wrap it up with you, but you just can't stop can you? You don't know me or what my concerns are. That is obvious.
Quote
Do you think that they would see our withdrawal as weakness, and then press on attacks and demands for withdrawal of our support for Israel?
It would seem weak to some, but only to those who already "hate us for our freedoms" lol! Israel has nothing to do with the invasion of Iraq or Afghanistan, don't pretend like you know anything about Israel, because you don't know shit.
It does appear that someone doesn't know "shit". You might want to review recent Middle Eastern history. Ever been to Israel? Think that the families of those Israelis that were killed by suicide bombers that were compensated by Saddam would agree withyou? Do you think that Israel felt "involved when Saddam was firing missiles at them? I don't claim to be an expert on Israel, but I have visited on an official basis several times and I know that they are a little more concerned about terrorism than you are. And yes, they might even have a little fear in their minds after the leader in Iran threatened to wipe their country off the face of the Earth. Did you know something different? I would be interested in hearing what insight you had on the Israeli's.
Quote
Would it stop then?
Would what stop?
Radical Islamic terrorism.
Quote
Or would the next demand be to but out in Pakistan when an Islamic government took over?
Well since America enabled the Taliban who knows what they would do in Pakistan.
So how is it that America enabled the Taliban? Serbs? You are OK with the US staying home when Pakistan is overthrown by Islamic radicals?
Quote
Do you think that Iran is capable of using a nuclear weapon?
Clearly they are not, or if they were and as crazy as some of YOU claim, they already would have!
So you don't think that their threat to wipe Israel off the face of the Earth and their threats of war with the US are "crazy"? When they actually successfully develop one, then yes I think they will use it.
Quote
What should be the response to that if they do? A UN resolution? An Israeli nuke response? An American nuke response or invasion?
Can you tell me the first and only country to ever use a nuclear weapon on a population?
The United States against the Japanese Empire after an unprovoked attack. We saved a lot of AMERICAN lives by doing that. But you wouldn't have used it, would you?
Quote
The point of all these questions is to point out the fallicy of appeasement. Speak softly and carry a big stick.
Just LOL... You are perpetuating a false argument here.
I don't think so, and Teddy is on my side!
Quote from: NotNow on May 27, 2010, 11:59:43 PM
Thank you Sam. And I say God bless to them as well. I have lost a few good friends, and I will think of them and pray for them this holiday weekend.
Jim, do you believe that if we completely pulled out of the Middle East, the region would be better off and we would not suffer any attacks by Muslim extremists? Do you think that they would see our withdrawal as weakness, and then press on attacks and demands for withdrawal of our support for Israel? Would it stop then? Or would the next demand be to but out in Pakistan when an Islamic government took over? Do you think that Iran is capable of using a nuclear weapon? What should be the response to that if they do? A UN resolution? An Israeli nuke response? An American nuke response or invasion?
The point of all these questions is to point out the fallicy of appeasement. Speak softly and carry a big stick.
NN, the fallacy is that you see policy change as appeasement. I could point out the whole Constitutional position on the issue but I'll save that part for another debate/post.
I'll try and answer each of your specific questions. And before I go on, I want you to know that my wife spent 6 years in the AF. She was in Qatar twice. And my brother was a marine for 6 years having met his wife in Iraq. So my views are not anti-military...I'm quite pro-military actually. I just want you to understand my position comes from experiencing the problems or knowing those that have seen it all first hand.
Question 1:
Jim, do you believe that if we completely pulled out of the Middle East, the region would be better off and we would not suffer any attacks by Muslim extremists?The region being better off is subjective. But then again, I cannot see how we have stabilized anything. Consider that we've put in power many of those tyrants, how are we really helping things?
Attacks against us would definitely drop IF we changed policy. Completely cease? No way to know though I do suspect a few would still harbor hatred if we've killed most of their family, had soldiers rape their family, destroyed their village, etc... No doubt we do good there but we also do damage on unspeakable levels too. The good never erases the bad to those that were affected by it.
Question 2:
Do you think that they would see our withdrawal as weakness?Quite the opposite actually. Remaining bullheaded and failing to acknowledge the truth and facts is the weak way. It take real balls to admit when you are doing something wrong. Nothing can be weaker than ignoring mistakes simply to show strength.
Question 3:
Do you think that they would press on attacks and demands for withdrawal of our support for Israel?Possible. But that's irrelevant. As I said, a policy change is not appeasement. We aren't giving in to their demands. We are understanding our role and applying it better.
Question 4:
Would it stop then? Or would the next demand be to but out in Pakistan when an Islamic government took over?Again, irrelevant. Withdrawing from Israel would be on our own accord. So continuing demand from the ME would still have no bearing on the policy. But the real question is who are we to decide which government should and should not control Pakistan? The people of Pakistan did not elect our officials so why are our officials dictating Pakistani government? That makes our government a dictator by proxy. How do you think we would feel if the Pakistani government decided we needed a different government, started bombing us, rounding up people in DC and imposed their own government and people? When you put that shoe on the other foot, it starts to look less like the glass slipper we think we're giving them and more like an acid filled boot.
Question 5:
Do you think that Iran is capable of using a nuclear weapon?Are we not members of the UN? Do we not sit on the UN Security Council? Did we not create and abide by the International Atomic Energy Agency? Then with all this, why do we feel it necessary to circumvent the very agency's we've created to handle nuclear energy and weaponry with our own, very failed, anti-nuclear weapon enforcement?
Question 6:
What should be the response to that if they do? A UN resolution?If they do then the UN will decree them in violation of international nuclear weapon laws. A response should never be unilaterally from us. If they are a true thread then align with the whole world to oppose it.
We can speak softly and carry a big stick. But we aren't. We aren't speaking at all and we're aggressively attacking with a whole lot of big sticks and a lot of underhanded political trickery.
The irony is 'speak softly and carry a big stick' is very much the policy I'm alluding that we adapt. It means communicate will all yet protect yourself when threatened. We don't communicate with the ME and we are the aggressor. Our policy now is strike first, ask questions later.
A little education for you NN
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-FLIBkTg8g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbDMam_jGVk&feature=related
Quote from: NotNow on Today at 12:12:19 AM
JC,
You are right. You are entitled to your opinion. I strongly disagree with you, and I am disappointed when I hear someone rattle of the "blame America" talking points.
Basic and primitive are probably good descriptors for me. Life has taught me that most things are pretty basic. If it walks like a duck, in real life it is probably a duck. Think of me as stupid or scared if you wish. I have spent my life under arms, and a few years on our present battlegrounds. I see people who want to hurt and take from others every day. The GI Bill even provided me with a BS degree so that I can cover a pretty good sized stain on my wall.
I'll agree to disagree with you. And I wouldn't share that 9/11 opinion of yours in any of the places that I frequent, if I were you.
What is it that makes you think America is above "blame" or question for its foreign policy decisions? The connections between the involved parties are not coincidence.
What makes you think that the terrorist are NOT to blame? How are you justifying killing innocent people?
As I have said before, it is a terrible tragedy when an innocent person dies, I just dont make a distinction between innocent people from America or Iraq, Afghanistan, Japan or where ever.
Um, OK. And you believe that America is intentionally targeting innocents like the terrorist?
Quote from: NotNow on Today at 12:12:19 AM
I'll agree to disagree with you. And I wouldn't share that 9/11 opinion of yours in any of the places that I frequent, if I were you.
Can you please explain this point, are you threatening me because it surely seems like you are.
LOL...I'm warning you that you will get your ass kicked sideways by most everyone if you spout that opinion out.
And in this corner ::)
Quote from: NotNow on May 28, 2010, 12:44:58 AM
A little education for you NN
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-FLIBkTg8g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbDMam_jGVk&feature=related
Quote from: NotNow on Today at 12:12:19 AM
JC,
You are right. You are entitled to your opinion. I strongly disagree with you, and I am disappointed when I hear someone rattle of the "blame America" talking points.
Basic and primitive are probably good descriptors for me. Life has taught me that most things are pretty basic. If it walks like a duck, in real life it is probably a duck. Think of me as stupid or scared if you wish. I have spent my life under arms, and a few years on our present battlegrounds. I see people who want to hurt and take from others every day. The GI Bill even provided me with a BS degree so that I can cover a pretty good sized stain on my wall.
I'll agree to disagree with you. And I wouldn't share that 9/11 opinion of yours in any of the places that I frequent, if I were you.
What is it that makes you think America is above "blame" or question for its foreign policy decisions? The connections between the involved parties are not coincidence.
What makes you think that the terrorist are NOT to blame? How are you justifying killing innocent people?
As I have said before, it is a terrible tragedy when an innocent person dies, I just dont make a distinction between innocent people from America or Iraq, Afghanistan, Japan or where ever.
Um, OK. And you believe that America is intentionally targeting innocents like the terrorist?
Quote from: NotNow on Today at 12:12:19 AM
I'll agree to disagree with you. And I wouldn't share that 9/11 opinion of yours in any of the places that I frequent, if I were you.
Can you please explain this point, are you threatening me because it surely seems like you are.
LOL...I'm warning you that you will get your ass kicked sideways by most everyone if you spout that opinion out.
Clearly the people who decided to fly planes into the towers are guilty, they are the perpetrators of a terrible crime, and they killed people who did NOT deserve to die. However, it is worth analyzing their stated reasons for attacking America and their relationship to American foreign policy. Their are many people far smarter than I am who acknowledge America's role in the 9/11 attacks. I am not saying that those who committed this atrocity should be absolved of guilt, however I am saying America should acknowledge the reasons and attempt (really hard) to prevent carrying out those policies which have subjugated and stolen from foreign people WHO NOW wish us harm.
Yes, America has intentionally targeted civilians, or targeted cities without regard for civilian casualties. Please watch Fog of War with Robert S. McNamara, he will confirm this charge. More recently there were the attacks on Al Jazeera early on in the invasion.
That's great that you would justify assaulting someone for expressing their opinion and using their first amendment rights to do so. I know you don't care about the charge but if you simply cant have a discussion and disagree without resorting to violence you are pretty basic.
I love America's potential, its ability to do some pretty amazing things but when it gets off track it is up to patriots to set it right again!
Jim,
Thanks for the thoughtful response.
NN, the fallacy is that you see policy change as appeasement. I could point out the whole Constitutional position on the issue but I'll save that part for another debate/post.
I would probably agree with your Constitutional argument.
I'll try and answer each of your specific questions. And before I go on, I want you to know that my wife spent 6 years in the AF. She was in Qatar twice. And my brother was a marine for 6 years having met his wife in Iraq. So my views are not anti-military...I'm quite pro-military actually. I just want you to understand my position comes from experiencing the problems or knowing those that have seen it all first hand.
Thank both of them for me. And you. I know it is difficult to hold down the home while the soldier is deployed. Military spouse is a very under appreciated occupation.
Question 1:
Jim, do you believe that if we completely pulled out of the Middle East, the region would be better off and we would not suffer any attacks by Muslim extremists?
The region being better off is subjective. But then again, I cannot see how we have stabilized anything. Consider that we've put in power many of those tyrants, how are we really helping things?
The alternative is an eventual Middle Eastern strongman, a dictator. We have stopped any well organized attacks on our country. I agree that it is time for the governments there to take over their own security, but I would keep well prepared bases. Which tyrants are ours?
Attacks against us would definitely drop IF we changed policy. Completely cease? No way to know though I do suspect a few would still harbor hatred if we've killed most of their family, had soldiers rape their family, destroyed their village, etc... No doubt we do good there but we also do damage on unspeakable levels too. The good never erases the bad to those that were affected by it.
I don't think that they would stop attacking us. Hatred for the unbeliever is taught to the very young. We have not killed whold families except the most strident families. We have not had many (that I know of ) rapes of families. Crimes of individual soldiers have been prosecuted. And I don't know of any villages that we destroyed "on our own".
Question 2:
Do you think that they would see our withdrawal as weakness?
Quite the opposite actually. Remaining bullheaded and failing to acknowledge the truth and facts is the weak way. It take real balls to admit when you are doing something wrong. Nothing can be weaker than ignoring mistakes simply to show strength.
Well, I guess that depends on what the "truth" is doesn't it?
Question 3:
Do you think that they would press on attacks and demands for withdrawal of our support for Israel?
Possible. But that's irrelevant. As I said, a policy change is not appeasement. We aren't giving in to their demands. We are understanding our role and applying it better.
Withdrawing from protecting our interest and giving up on an ally of sixty years would definitely be seen and taken as as a victory for radicals there and a defeat for us.
Question 4:
Would it stop then? Or would the next demand be to but out in Pakistan when an Islamic government took over?
Again, irrelevant. Withdrawing from Israel would be on our own accord. So continuing demand from the ME would still have no bearing on the policy. But the real question is who are we to decide which government should and should not control Pakistan? The people of Pakistan did not elect our officials so why are our officials dictating Pakistani government? That makes our government a dictator by proxy. How do you think we would feel if the Pakistani government decided we needed a different government, started bombing us, rounding up people in DC and imposed their own government and people? When you put that shoe on the other foot, it starts to look less like the glass slipper we think we're giving them and more like an acid filled boot.
OK, I am good with that. Do you let them have the nukes? I say we have to make sure that they are destroyed .
Question 5:
Do you think that Iran is capable of using a nuclear weapon?
Are we not members of the UN? Do we not sit on the UN Security Council? Did we not create and abide by the International Atomic Energy Agency? Then with all this, why do we feel it necessary to circumvent the very agency's we've created to handle nuclear energy and weaponry with our own, very failed, anti-nuclear weapon enforcement?
The UN? Really? No, there is a reason when people are in real trouble, they call for the US, not the UN.
Question 6:
What should be the response to that if they do? A UN resolution?
If they do then the UN will decree them in violation of international nuclear weapon laws. A response should never be unilaterally from us. If they are a true thread then align with the whole world to oppose it.
Again, the UN? Like the "strong " response to Iran thumbing their noses at the UN resolution?
We can speak softly and carry a big stick. But we aren't. We aren't speaking at all and we're aggressively attacking with a whole lot of big sticks and a lot of underhanded political trickery.
The irony is 'speak softly and carry a big stick' is very much the policy I'm alluding that we adapt. It means communicate will all yet protect yourself when threatened. We don't communicate with the ME and we are the aggressor. Our policy now is strike first, ask questions later.
I think that we communicate pretty well. We send delagations and the Secretary of State all over the Middle East. I still don't think we are "striking first" . I think we are "still responding".
An interesting debate
Quote
On 9-11
Noam Chomsky debates with Bill Bennett
CNN, May 30, 2002
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: They are two best selling authors with two very different takes on terrorism. In his book, "9-11," Noam Chomsky accuses the United States of being a terrorist state. He says the war in Afghanistan is wrong, states that in recent history, America has committed acts of terrorism, and maintains that America's foreign policy is hypocritical.
In Bill Bennett's "Why We Fight," he says the war on terror is morally just. He maintains that democracy and human rights are America's noblest exports, and that we must be prepared to respond to anti-American critics. Talk about a war of words.
Well, Bill Bennett joins us now from New York, and Noam Chomsky joins us from Boston. Welcome, gentlemen. Great to have both of you with us.
BILL BENNETT, AUTHOR, "WHY WE FIGHT": Thank you.
NOAM CHOMSKY, AUTHOR, "9-11": Hello.
ZAHN: I would like to start off, professor, by reading a very small excerpt from your book where you write that nothing can justify crimes such as those of September 11, but we can think of the United States as an innocent victim only if we adopt the convenient path of ignoring the record of its actions and those of its allies, which are, after all, hardly a secret. What are you referring to here?
CHOMSKY: Well, for example, the United States happens to be the only state in the world that has been condemned by the World Court for international terrorism, would have been condemned by the Security Council, except that it vetoed the resolution. This referred to the U.S. terrorist war against Nicaragua, the court ordered the United States to desist and pay reparations. The U.S. responded by immediately escalating the crimes, including first official orders to attack what are called soft targets -- undefended civilian targets. This is massive terrorism. It is by no means the worst, and it continues right to the present, so for example...
ZAHN: Bill Bennett, your response to what the professor said, and then we will let him pick up from there.
BENNETT: It's quite extraordinary to hear a supposedly learned person call the United States a leading terrorist nation, one of the leading terrorist nations in the world. It's false and very treacherous teaching. In the situation Mr. Chomsky is talking about, of course, the United States supported the Contras in Nicaragua. The condemnation or judgment by the World Court was not that it was terrorism, but that we supported some unlawful activity. However, when there were free elections in Nicaragua, and Mrs. Chamorro took office, all the lawsuits, all the complaints against the United States were dropped, when you had a democratically elected country.
We have done more good for more people than any country in the history of the world. What I want to know of Mr. Chomsky is if he believes we are a leading terrorist state, he is obviously welcome in the United States, why do you choose to live, sir, in a terrorist nation?
CHOMSKY: First of all, the World Court condemned the United States for what it called "the unlawful use of force and violation of treaties."
BENNETT: Which is not terrorism.
CHOMSKY: That's international terrorism.
BENNETT: No, it is not.
CHOMSKY: Yes, it is exactly international terrorism.
BENNETT: No, it is not, sir.
CHOMSKY: Furthermore, the escalation to attack undefended civilian targets is just a classic illustration of terrorism. And furthermore, it continues right to the present, as I was saying, so for example...
BENNETT: It's quite...
CHOMSKY: May I continue?
BENNETT: Sure.
CHOMSKY: In the late 1990s, some of the worst terrorist atrocities in the world were what the Turkish government itself called state terror, namely massive atrocities, 80 percent of the arms coming from the United States, millions of refugees, tens of thousands of people killed, hideous repression, that's international terror, and we can go on and on.
(CROSSTALK)
ZAHN: Before you go further, let's give Bill a chance to respond to respond to the Turkish string (ph) of this -- go ahead, Bill.
BENNETT: America responsible for hideous repression and refugees? Why is it, Mr. Chomsky, whenever there are refugees in the world, they flee to the United States rather than from the United States? Why is it on balance, Mr. Chomsky, that this nation, when it opens its gates, has people rushing in? Why is it that it is this nation the world looks to for support and encouragement and help? We rebuilt Europe twice in this century, after two world wars. We liberated Europe from Nazi tyranny. We have liberated Eastern Europe in the last few years from communist tyranny, and now we are engaged in a battle against something else.
When we went in to Kabul, even the "New York Times" in mid- November showed pictures of people smiling at the presence of American troops, because this country was once again a force for freedom, and a force for liberation. Have we done some terrible things in our history? Of course we have. But as Senator Moynihan has pointed out, our people find out about them from reading the newspapers and watching television. When you look at this nation on balance, in terms of what good it has done and what bad it has done, it is grossly irresponsible to talk about this country as a terrorist nation, and to suggest, as do you in your book, that there is justification, moral justification, for what happened on 9/11. For that, sir, you really should be ashamed.
CHOMSKY: You should be ashamed for lying about what is in the book, because nothing is said -- in fact, the quote was just given, nothing can justify the terrorist attacks of September 11. You just heard the quote, if you want to falsify it, that's your business.
BENNETT: No -- well, I...
CHOMSKY: Just a minute -- did I interrupt you? Did I interrupt you?
ZAHN: Professor, let me jump in here, but implicit in that -- aren't you saying that you understand why America was targeted?
CHOMSKY: Do I understand? Yes, so does the U.S. intelligence services, so does all of scholarship. I mean, we can ignore it if we like, and therefore lead to further terrorist attacks, or we can try to understand. What Mr. Bennett said is about half true. The United States has done some very good things in the world, and that does not change the fact that the World Court was quite correct in condemning the United States as an international terrorist state, nor do the atrocities in Turkey in the last few years -- they are not obviated by the fact that there are other good things that happen. Sure. That's -- you are correct when you say good things have happened, but if we are not total hypocrites, in the sense of the gospels, we will pay attention to our own crimes. For one reason, because that's elementary morality -- elementary morality. For another thing, because we mitigate them.
ZAHN: All right, professor, I'm going to have to leave it there with you, Bill Bennett, and we have got to leave it to about 20 seconds.
BENNETT: It there any nation that acknowledges its errors and its sins and its crimes and the things it has done that are not consistent with its principles more than the United States? No, there is not.
This is also the man, just let it be said for the record, who said that the reports of atrocities by the Khmer Rouge were grossly exaggerated. This is the man who said when we engaged the Soviet Union that we...
CHOMSKY: No, it's not. But that is...
BENNETT: I didn't interrupt you -- that we were continuing the Nazi effort against Russia. Go through the Chomsky work, line by line, argument by argument, and you will see this is a man who has made a career out of hating America and out of trashing the record of this country. Of course, there is a mixed record in this country, why do you choose to live in this terrorist nation, Mr. Chomsky?
CHOMSKY: I don't. I choose to live in what I think is the greatest country in the world, which is committing horrendous terrorist acts and should stop.
BENNETT: I think you should say greatest -- I think you should say greatest a little more often.
CHOMSKY: If you want to be a hypocrite...
(CROSSTALK)
BENNETT: I think you should acknowledge its virtues a little more often, Mr. Chomsky.
CHOMSKY: And you should acknowledge its crimes.
BENNETT: I do. Read my book. You will see it.
CHOMSKY: No, you never do. No, sorry. And if you want to...
BENNETT: I am reading other people's books.
CHOMSKY: If you want to know what I say, do not listen to Mr. Bennett's falsifications of which I just gave an example.
BENNETT: Read both books.
ZAHN: Gentlemen, we are going to have to cut off both of you there. Noam Chomsky, Bill Bennett, thank you for both of your thoughts, and I think probably the best course of action anybody can take out there, is buy both of your books so they can make their own judgment.
BENNETT: That's fine.
ZAHN: Gentlemen, thank you very much for your time.
CHOMSKY: Yes.
Chomsky much more eloquently sums up my position.
Yeah, he is wrong too.
Have a good night JC.
Quote from: NotNow on May 28, 2010, 12:44:58 AM
LOL...I'm warning you that you will get your ass kicked sideways by most everyone if you spout that opinion out.
Could you be more ironic here? Do you see the irony in our disagreement and this statement?
Much to the dismay of my fellow conservatives, I have found Chomsky to be on target quite often. I don't buy into his positions as an absolute, but I most certainly agree that the US has it's military "nose" in other peoples business.
I don't consider the US a terrorist nation, but I do recognize the need for us to withdraw from our self asserted role as enforcer of the will of the "one world" elites.
Quote from: buckethead on May 28, 2010, 08:28:24 AM
Much to the dismay of my fellow conservatives, I have found Chomsky to be on target quite often. I don't buy into his positions as an absolute, but I most certainly agree that the US has it's military "nose" in other peoples business.
I don't consider the US a terrorist nation, but I do recognize the need for us to withdraw from our self asserted role as enforcer of the will of the "one world" elites.
I appreciate you voicing your opinion! I know I am stereotyping to a degree, but its nice to know there are some conservatives who are willing to take an introspective look at American Foreign policy.