Metro Jacksonville

Metrorail Commuter Line Opens in Austin

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/869696457_BQLWX-M.jpg)

After two years of delay, Austin joins the rapidly growing list of American cities with local passenger rail service. Is Jacksonville paying attention to the economic development these systems bring to a community?

Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2010-may-metrorail-commuter-line-opens-in-austin

Looks nice.

Is Jacksonville paying attention to the economic development these systems bring to a community?  No.
1. Austin is not run by Gate Petroleum.
2. Most Jacksonville people equate mass transit with Yankee liberals who are trying to ruin our car-dominated paradise.  [I still remember those old Times-Union editorials that bashed high-density urban centers and mass transit using exactly this angle.]

Nice article Lake.  Saltillo Lofts and Midtown Commons are two interesting projects.

Austin has always been a progressive city... a rare anomoly in a state such as Texas.  Additionally, and perhaps b/c of that, they have seen an impressive population increase...  4th in net migration among the top 50 metro areas and doubling the population growth seen throughout the state of Texas(which isnt exactly losing residents on a massive scale either, Texas doubles the nationwide population growth rate).

Austin, quite simply is a top destination for the bright flighters.

Btw, Austin's downtown has basically a mirror image version of DVI  ;) and SHOCKINGLY downtown Austin has design standards specifically targeting quality of life implications(walkability, pedestrian activity, and mixed use buildings) and the viability of business downtown.  They also have a downtown that has a regular police presence so its a very safe feeling core(albeit a small core, about 15 x 15 blocks, but DT Austin mixes and connects well with the surrounding 'historic' neighborhoods).

Lake, would Austin's MetroRail be similar to the commuter rail lines proposed in the new mobility plan?  
Do you know how often they have service stops along the Metrorail... is it every 20, 40, 60 etc minutes?  Just trying to have an idea of scale in relation to the proposed Jacksonville commuter rail system(seeing as though Jax is both bigger in size and population).

Here's the system map:
(http://www.capmetro.org/MetroRail/docs/Capital%20MetroRail%20Map.pdf)

Right on, Jaxson: the people who are paying attention aren't in charge; the people who are in charge aren't paying attention.  We have to ride this wave out until election time.

I hope our commuter rail breaks ground one day. Jacksonville has a very large population and of course the largest city in the continential United states. We have alot of ground to cover and people to move (and were not getting any smaller), and sorry the city bus and the sky way is not doing. This would be a HUGE benefit to use.

QuoteI hope our commuter rail breaks ground one day. Jacksonville has a very large population and of course the largest city in the continential United states. We have alot of ground to cover and people to move (and were not getting any smaller), and sorry the city bus and the sky way is not doing. This would be a HUGE benefit to use.

If we were to build a similar system here, it would almost make more sense to keep it confined in the areas immediately surrounding downtown (i.e. Springfield, Riverside, Talleyrand, etc) instead of stretching it out to the suburbs.  For the most part, many of these areas near downtown are starving for development, and a Metrorail-type of system would bring life back into them.

I lived in Austin from 2000-03.  I didn't enjoy living there, but credit the city for coming up with a sound rail plan and making it a reality after a disastrous start.  The initial rail plan proposed in Austin, which was voted down in 2000, was excessively costly, duplicated well-used bus routes in the university area, required tearing up several already overcrowded and poorly maintained major streets, didn't adequately access high-density areas, and had illogical placement for stops (much like the Syracuse rail failure plan documented on MetroJax in the past).   Pretty remarkable that they built support for rail again, and quickly, after that initial plan turned off a lot of people and inspired heated debate.

Incidentally, Austin has a far worse problem with aggressive panhandling than Jacksonville (or any other city I know well, for that matter), and really doesn't do much of anything to address it, but this does not seem to hold back its urban core significantly.

Quote from: ralpho37 on May 25, 2010, 11:30:12 AM

QuoteI hope our commuter rail breaks ground one day. Jacksonville has a very large population and of course the largest city in the continential United states. We have alot of ground to cover and people to move (and were not getting any smaller), and sorry the city bus and the sky way is not doing. This would be a HUGE benefit to use.

If we were to build a similar system here, it would almost make more sense to keep it confined in the areas immediately surrounding downtown (i.e. Springfield, Riverside, Talleyrand, etc) instead of stretching it out to the suburbs.  For the most part, many of these areas near downtown are starving for development, and a Metrorail-type of system would bring life back into them.

I agree patrially. I dont think it should be TOO widespread but Jacksonville has true transportation issues. So aside from spurring development it would be nice to ease up some of this traffic. Then also, sadly enough, there isnt much of nothing downtown (right now) so confining it to just that area alone might not be 100% beneficial.

You must mean largest land wise, were no where near the largest city.

I dont care what ANYONE says, I am going to push commuter rail in Jacksonville till it is built. Our city is really lacking in many things. And one of them is proper Mass Transit. All the existing forms of mass transit will benefit with the creation of commuter rail. Bus, Streetcar, Skyway... They all will form a network of transportation. And right now we have a half @$$ transportation network.

It doesn't matter if our city isn't dense enough, the density will come. However we cant sit back and wait for it to come without a proper transit system because it wont come.

Commuter rail is popping up everywhere and its successful in just about any city it exists. So stop thinking of now and think of the future.

Quote from: Keith-N-Jax on May 25, 2010, 12:46:43 PM
You must mean largest land wise, were no where near the largest city.

yes landwise. I didnt feel the need to clarify that because most Duvalian's know that I meant landwise. ;)

Commuter Rail does not need "residential rensity" to be successful, thats one of the great things about it. I think even Charlotte and SLC have proven that LRT can work in less dense cities.

Quote from: fsujax on May 25, 2010, 01:15:31 PM
Commuter Rail does not need "residential rensity" to be successful, thats one of the great things about it. I think even Charlotte and SLC have proven that LRT can work in less dense cities.

And with that being said, that gives us even more of a reason to get off our duff and get some commuter rail. Atleast we have some studies taking place, that the first step.

I agree with you there. There has been some major progress with commuter rail in Jacksonville. JTA has spent the money to do the studies and worked with the TPO to get it in the Long Range Plan. It is my understanding JTA has budgeted money to begin the environmental process with FTA. Look for things to continue going in the right direction.

I think that we can improve mass transit in our city.  We need to begin by electing local leaders who actually care that traffic is a living nightmare.

Commuter Rail is to transport to the burbs. Its a long distance rail system. Connecting Springfield, Riverside, San Marco & Lavilla is the job of expanded Skyway....but Jax does not want to connect those communities.

Quote from: Coolyfett on May 25, 2010, 02:41:03 PM
Commuter Rail is to transport to the burbs. Its a long distance rail system. Connecting Springfield, Riverside, San Marco & Lavilla is the job of expanded Skyway....but Jax does not want to connect those communities.

Yes that is true, the Skyway needs to be expanded if it is ever to be of any use, because right now it goes no-where.

HEY JACKSONVILLE LEADERS: CONNECT THE PEOPLE WHERE THEY LIVE TO WHERE THEY WORK!

. . . and to downtown and the middle ground will grow, along with downtown.

An anecdote to the conversation... Austin is going to have even MORE transportation options over the next few years now that they have announced they will be hosting a Formula One race :)

http://www.autoblog.com/2010/05/25/breaking-formula-one-coming-to-austin-texas-in-2012/ (http://www.autoblog.com/2010/05/25/breaking-formula-one-coming-to-austin-texas-in-2012/)

Quote from: Coolyfett on May 25, 2010, 02:41:03 PM
Commuter Rail is to transport to the burbs. Its a long distance rail system. Connecting Springfield, Riverside, San Marco & Lavilla is the job of expanded Skyway....but Jax does not want to connect those communities.

that's where you are wrong....those neighborhoods can be connected by Skyway and/or streetcar...and JTA, the TPO, and City are now endorsing streetcars at some level.

Those neighborhoods can also be served by commuter rail.  Examples of urban communities in Jacksonville that will be connected to downtown by commuter rail include Durkeeville, New Springfield, Brentwood, Panama Park, Springfield, Riverside/Avondale, Murray Hill and Lakeshore.  

More and more systems are becoming hybrids in that they are being designed to fit with the communities they serve as opposed to traditional transportation planning mode descriptions.  Good examples that deviate from the traditional thinking of commuter rail includes Portland's WES, Oceanside's Sprinter, Austin's Metrorail, Philly's SEPTA and New Jersey's RiverLine.

Quote from: Coolyfett on May 25, 2010, 02:41:03 PM
Commuter Rail is to transport to the burbs. Its a long distance rail system. Connecting Springfield, Riverside, San Marco & Lavilla is the job of expanded Skyway....but Jax does not want to connect those communities.

This is a sort of one-size-fits-all answer Coolyfett. Frankly, it is impossible in the Transportation World to say that everything within XX is rail, while everything over in ZZ is Skyway, or that everything AA is bus/BRT.  The Transit world is one of a careful tailoring job, with each community, urban or suburban, getting the best mode or modes to make them mobile. While 5-Points, Park & King, and the Landing all scream S T R E E T C A R, San Marco (because of the FEC RY cutting it off from the rest of the city with blocked crossings) screams S K Y W A Y. Does this leave Commuter Rail out of the picture? Not at all, consider the FEC RY at Atlantic, or the CSX at King, as potential Commuter Rail Stops.

Just to make a point, imagine if we studied and decided that Streetcar to King and the CSX, as well as BRT bus to Blanding, would hub out of this "King Street Commuter Rail Station."  That is really 4 distinct modes serving and mixing up their passengers at a single urban neighborhood stop. Let's call these Mini-Hubs, and each would be roughly patterned after the Kings Avenue Station, or Rosa Parks Station, of today. 

To break this down further consider that Edison, Mc Duff, Stockton, College and Post, might all be frequent neighborhood bus routes from our "King Street Commuter Rail Station".  Every 20 Minutes, a City bus cluster rolls in from each of these routes.  During rush hours the headways are even more frequent. Every 40 Minutes a Commuter Train heads into or out of town, in the morning or late afternoon hours.  Every 10 Minutes a streetcar rolls to a stop at the busy King Street Station to meet a fleet of sleek Bus Rapid Transit Buses that have made a trek from Middleburg and Argyle, up through Wesconnett, Lake Shore, up Cassat, to Post, and on to King.  Every 15 minutes the BRT line circulates another coach through the station, coaches that NEVER have to make the rest of the trek downtown!

So all day and into the night the system would hum, perhaps a dozen mini-hubs scattered around the city, each well landscaped, well lit, well staffed, with INFORMATION, with SECURITY, with real time display links to GPS bus-train-streetcar tracking, with restrooms, with vending machines, perhaps even with air conditioned cubical-waiting lounge, and some with large parking lots.


The trains are the ultimate consolidator of traffic, and the BRT is a lighter Consolidator with some longer distance features too. Streetcar is more of an Arterial that flows heavy night and day, pulsing with life, while in other neighborhoods and routes the Skyway performs this duty. The City bus connectors while they are the same old clunkers we have come to love, consider now that they'll have reason to exist, food for the farebox, and a renewed determination to succeed in foraging for passengers.

Like members of a choir, each sings it's own part, and when placed on stage one will then hear the harmony.


OCKLAWAHA

I see people moving here all the time. And soon (I really hope) people from more developed parts of the country will out number the native population, causing the city to accommodate to what the new majority is used to and rightfully expects of a major city. I'm not trying to say all Jacksonville people are bad. It's just the powers that be right now are not working in the city's best interest. I said this on another post, but it's worth at least considering. Let's organize a boycott against Gate gas stations, in order to force the mayor to do right by Jacksonville!

^ Gate is ownedby the Mayor's father, who is a pretty good guy. There's not much reason to boycott Gate just because the Mayor has been bad. I don't think the younger Peyton has been involved in the operation of Gate for the better part of a decade.  My two cents.

As to commuter rail - I'm still extremely excited that JTA and the TPO are moving forward with their studies. Back in 2004, the Better Jax Plan called for preliminary ROW acquisition for the ill-conceived BRT plan. The fact that BRT has not been built, and that a bigger, better, cheaper commuter rail system is at least on the table ... well, it's really nice to say the least.

Quote from: Joe on May 27, 2010, 05:12:48 PM
As to commuter rail - I'm still extremely excited that JTA and the TPO are moving forward with their studies. Back in 2004, the Better Jax Plan called for preliminary ROW acquisition for the ill-conceived BRT plan. The fact that BRT has not been built, and that a bigger, better, cheaper commuter rail system is at least on the table ... well, it's really nice to say the least.

the BRT-lite version is still in process...and design of the downtown portion will begin soon.....as for commuter rail, it is bigger and better, but not necessarily cheaper...it is likely to cost just as muh as the 2004 version of BRT, but covers more area.

^Thus it's significantly cheaper.  The 2004 version of BRT would have also cost around $1 billion to construct the 29/30 mile long dedicated busway system.  The entire 90-mile Commuter rail system may not cost that much.

"The entire 90-mile Commuter rail system may not that much."

And could be done in phases.

^^very true and with the possible improvements in conjunction with Amtrak service to Miami on the SE line to St Aug we are looking at a reduction of cost.

not yet, but the money will be "available" on July 1....from what I understand, JTA hopes to advertise for consultants in late summer and will likely start on the studies a few months later.

Stephen, the money will be available October 1, 2010. The TPO voted to approve the UPWP at the May meeting. This pretty much guranteed funding for the next two fiscal years. It is my understanding JTA is providing the local match for the federal dollars. So it appears JTA is serious about moving forward. Things will become more clear in the next few months as TUFSU1 pointed out. It should be understood this is to begin the federal environmental process (FTA), which will then clear the way for commuter rail in NE Florida.

Hopefully rail here. Won't be spread out over too many phases. Let's get as much done while there is an American rail friendly administration in the white house. We built enough commuter rail in Iraq already.