The answer here is a simple one. Leave the historic fund alone and take the $3.5 million out of the $8.2 million earmarked for Metropolitan Park. This allows all projects to move forward.
QuoteBy David Bauerlein
A proposal to help The Jacksonville Landing purchase a parking lot could quash the city's ongoing talks with a developer interested in restoring the vacant Barnett Bank and Laura Street Trio buildings downtown, the city's top economic development official told City Council this week.
City Council President Richard Clark recently introduced a bill that would tap the Historic Preservation Trust Fund to provide $3.5 million for the Landing to buy a parking lot a block from the downtown mall.
Ron Barton, executive director of the Jacksonville Economic Development Commission, sent council members a letter Wednesday saying JEDC is iin "active discussions" with a developer that has a contract to purchase the old Barnett Bank building and Laura Street Trio
"Such an investment would add residents and foot traffic to downtown," Barton wrote in the letter. "However, these buildings will remain in their current blighted condition unless the city is willing to entertain an investment. The logical source of funding for this project is the Historic Preservation Trust Fund."
Clark said he isn't backing off his legislation. He said the Landing has been waiting since it opened in 1987 to get enough parking dedicated for its merchants and customers.
"We need to do whatever we need to do to keep The Landing solvent and solve this 23-year-old obligation," he said.
He said he expects the bill will go before City Council committees next week for their consideration.
http://jacksonville.com/business/2010-05-13/story/developer-eyes-buying-four-historic-buildings-downtown-jedc-says
I completely agree. I really think the city should focus on the central core surrounding the Landing, Laura Street and Hemming Plaza. We have the chance to make this area something attractive and great. Positive growth will spread if we can make the Laura Street corridor work. Metro park can wait.
The Landing is more of a priority but they should get the money elsewhere and it should still be now. Sorry Mr. Clark I like that you are taking the Landing situation seriously but you cannot scuttle the possible redevelopment of those for buildings. Get the money but not from the historic fund. Demanding aren't we.
Not surprising at all. The City does not care if these buildings continue to crumble. It would not surprise me at all if they (the City) does not try to do away with HPC altogether ,and ignore totally, a named Historic Landmark status, given its track record of the last 50 years.
If parking alone would solve the Landing's "solvency" problem, I might concur.. But I do not personally belive that is the entire problem. Getting funding by taking from Historic Funding is wrong and I completely disagree with that happening.
Simple, kill the millions headed to an unused park... for it's destruction (Flex space my ass!) and invest it in downtown redevelopment. We have suffered through nearly 8 years of the Boy Wonders Double Talk... Hot Dog Carts, Hanging Baskets, Gateway Arches, and Bench Removal... Bull Shit! It's time we start treating this like a real City and time that the politician's will feel the heat. I for one am tired of half ass nothing projects that have sucked us dry while real problems were ignored.
We need the Landing, Barnett and the Laura Trio they are Revenue Ready and if the city would just quit with the grandstanding we'd be shovel ready too.
In a city almost void of it's own historic fabric we have seen enough raiding history at any level.
OCKLAWAHA
I'm confused and have a question: was this historic fund money available when parking was promised 23 years ago?
I do not have an answer to that question.. Historic Funding Dollars should be used for just that.
For my part in it , the Landing could go. It has struggled since the beginning.. I know it will probably NOT go, the Laura Trio probably will first..because that is the mindset. Stealing from "Peter" to pay "Paul" . Its wrong. it needs to end.
Bench Removal, the only good thing to happen to the Core in many years. Credit the pioneer merchants and property owners for taking matters into their own hands. At the back of the Main Library, well, the benches were removed for a special event, but never returned. Congratulations Main Library.
Now, how about requiring ID or a Library Card before granting entry to the Land of Unlimited Air Conditioning and Soft Seating? "OPEN TO ALL (with proper identification)" the header over the door should read. A hammer and chisel, or a bucket of paint, or some politically incorrect backbone would do the trick.
A poorly managed downtown is already taking care of the restaurant clientele problem. There may be renewed interest in prohibiting the sale of alcoholic beverages for off premises consumption between the hours of 2 AM and 5 PM in the BID. That's all I will say for now... Sorry, all the new grocery stores that are opening in the Core. No Steele Reserve until 5 PM.
There are benches all over DT Greenville with nar a homeless person in sight. Won't homeless just sit on the sidewalk (which looks even worse) or on window sills, etc.? I undertand the frustration but that is not a good long-term solution.
What is the final solution for removing vagrants from downtown Jax?
Who casts the first stone?
Quote from: Jerry Moran on May 14, 2010, 12:40:02 AM
Bench Removal, the only good thing to happen to the Core in many years.
how sad is it when removal of benches (a key downtown pedestrian feature) is considered a good thing
I think there is enough parking for downtown. People will find a place to park if they want to be somewhere. First you have to make a place desirable! I think historic money should go to the Laura Trio and not the Landing parking garage. The Landing Garage is a totally separate issue and I agree they need a garage, but not on the dime of historic refurbishing.
Take the money out of Metropolitan Park's $8.2 million. I don't know why they keep avoiding this one. That park is a mile away from the core. No matter how much money you dump in it, its not going to have a significant impact on downtown.
Quote from: TheProfessor on May 14, 2010, 09:41:41 AM
I think there is enough parking for downtown. People will find a place to park if they want to be somewhere. First you have to make a place desirable! I think historic money should go to the Laura Trio and not the Landing parking garage. The Landing Garage is a totally separate issue and I agree they need a garage, but not on the dime of historic refurbishing.
As the Metro Jacksonville article on the issue states, the parking is required for major tenants to move into the Landing. Major national chains will make the Landing a desirable place.
But you're right the money does not need to come from the historic preservation fund, like lake said, it needs to come from the park money.
Jerry you have to be able to see how short sighted and self defeating removing amenities will be.
As a city we keep shooting our self in the foot. The Landing and Laura are two areas in the core that could possiably come to life if both projects come to fruitation. But its like where taking from one, to complete the other, instead of coming up with a solution to solve both problems. I literally HATE this city government. They are the most backwads adminstration I have ever seen in my life. The Landing and Laura street compliment each other. Imagine a vibrant, walkable Laura street with the landing packed with people 24 hours a day. UGH, I really do pray for this city's leadership.
And I agree who gives a d@mn about Metro Park. I have been there TWICE in my whole life and I am 28 years old.
I agree that the money for the landing parkign garage should come from Metro Park. Metro Park is a once and awhile destination place of which people will come regardless of the look, since it has headliners. If the money is spent on the core instead it would make a lasting daily impact.
QuoteNot surprising at all. The City does not care if these buildings continue to crumble. It would not surprise me at all if they (the City) does not try to do away with HPC altogether ,and ignore totally, a named Historic Landmark status, given its track record of the last 50 years.
You are so off base, Richard Clark is the only person who wants to give the 3 million to Sleiman (Landing) to settle the parking issue. What I want to know from Clark, I sure as heck hope he reads this, is what return the city will get for giving 3 million for parking compared to the development and build out of 4 buildings IN THE CORE of downtown. Will critical mass be achieved with a parking lot, or new development?
Clark is so out of touch with reality, but then again most of the City Council is as well. What has been disheartening is that Art Graham has such promise at the end of his original term, now he is nothing more than a rubber stamper on deals.
This decision on the Landing is not the City Council's to make. Let your council person know, as Lake suggested, that money could be pulled from other areas to satisfy Sleiman, if he can prove the lot would grow the Landing business. My bet is he can't prove it or show it, for that matter. He has a parking lot know that sits empty most of the time, just like this one will. Its a huge waste.
Sleiman can do it. He's not a man that overpromises and underdelivers.
Tell me again why over 8million is being spent on a piece of land that is hardly used?
Estimated Attendance by Facility for Major Sports, Cultural & Entertainment Venues
Source: City of Jacksonville Office of Special Events & Downtown Venues
2004 2005 2006 2007 2008
Jacksonville Landing 3,500,000 4,100,000 4,500,000 4,500,000 4,050,000
Metropolitan Park 230,000 257,700 199,850 189,100 180,850
I think one thing to be mindful of is this quote right here
QuoteHe said other prospective buyers have previously had contracts to purchase the buildings but withdrew their offers over the past year
I know of a few people that put feelers out on Barnett, but nothing transgressed into an actual purchase contract. So, its not as though there is an immenent deal to be signed tomorrow.
That being said, there are options available which preserve funds for the Laura Trio and the Landing.
PLEASE contact your city council representative about this issue! They need to be bombarded with calls and emails.
No historic preservation fund money for parking!
Kids Kampus renovation can wait.....
If that $8 Million was going to any other park in the core it would make more sense then Metropolitan Park. Memorial Park to the Art Market on the Riverwalk, with some expansion of the art market would get us WAY MORE focus on a downtown or near downtown. We already have corridors in town that have great potential and Metropolitan Park isn't one of them.
OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: mtraininjax on May 14, 2010, 12:26:33 PM
QuoteNot surprising at all. The City does not care if these buildings continue to crumble. It would not surprise me at all if they (the City) does not try to do away with HPC altogether ,and ignore totally, a named Historic Landmark status, given its track record of the last 50 years.
You are so off base, Richard Clark is the only person who wants to give the 3 million to Sleiman (Landing) to settle the parking issue. What I want to know from Clark, I sure as heck hope he reads this, is what return the city will get for giving 3 million for parking compared to the development and build out of 4 buildings IN THE CORE of downtown. Will critical mass be achieved with a parking lot, or new development?
Clark is so out of touch with reality, but then again most of the City Council is as well. What has been disheartening is that Art Graham has such promise at the end of his original term, now he is nothing more than a rubber stamper on deals.
This decision on the Landing is not the City Council's to make. Let your council person know, as Lake suggested, that money could be pulled from other areas to satisfy Sleiman, if he can prove the lot would grow the Landing business. My bet is he can't prove it or show it, for that matter. He has a parking lot know that sits empty most of the time, just like this one will. Its a huge waste.
What is it that I am so far off base about M?
Quote from: duvaldude08 on May 14, 2010, 12:02:18 PM
And I agree who gives a d@mn about Metro Park. I have been there TWICE in my whole life and I am 28 years old.
Well I've only been in Jax. for 4 years and have probably been to Metro Park 10+ times...plus, the project is to fix Kids Kampus...which unless you were under 10 before year 2000 or have kids, you would likely not have visited.
Have never been to Metro Park.. preferred Friendship Park / Fountain :) It is much more interactive and pleasent.
QuoteJerry at your and the merchants' request, more and more amenities keep getting removed from the downtown (Park visiting hours, benches, bathrooms, library access, etc) Yet the downtown has more homeless people and fewer customers.
wonder how you explain that?
- There is no legitimate reason to loiter in Hemming Park between sunset and sunrise at this point in Downtown's development.
- Benches are for parks and bus stops, not faceless urban canyons.
- Public restrooms encourage loitering, and while loitering in a public place is apparently no longer illegal, we should not facilitate it.
- The main library has a huge security problem. It is not unreasonable to require identification or a library card to exclude troublemakers, and protect patrons.
I attribute the plethora of vagrants in Downtown Jacksonville to our abundance of poorly located and ineptly managed shelters, and the City's reluctance to effectively enforce the law and protect traditional community standards. Who would want to endure such a place when there is St. John's Town Center?
"The best way to help the poor is to make them uncomfortable in their poverty" - Thomas Jefferson (And yes I know he kept slaves and occasionally boinked them.)
Quote from: tufsu1 on May 14, 2010, 10:19:22 PM
Quote from: duvaldude08 on May 14, 2010, 12:02:18 PM
And I agree who gives a d@mn about Metro Park. I have been there TWICE in my whole life and I am 28 years old.
Well I've only been in Jax. for 4 years and have probably been to Metro Park 10+ times...plus, the project is to fix Kids Kampus...which unless you were under 10 before year 2000 or have kids, you would likely not have visited.
I've been there several times and most I've come in contact who have been there with their kids would agree that its not the most pressing need in DT to rip it up and plant sod. I can also state from experience, that a trip to Kids Kampus does not typically result in a trip to visiting and spending money in "downtown." You lose that benefit because you have to get in your car to get to anything else. Once you've loaded up your family in the car, there are better options on how to spend the rest of your day and money than the Northbank.
If we're talking about really wanting to see a vibrant DT atmosphere, why not take $3.5 million out of the $8.2 million intended for Metro Park? This way, some money still flows to the Mayor's pet project (although it would be phased) and the projects that really have a positive impact on pedestrian scale vibrancy and connectivity can move forward as well.
This has a chance to be a real negative. We end up showing a lack of commitment to the Landing and historic preservation.
Perhaps this is the wrong thread to ask, but it might be telling to learn who benefits financially from the improvements to Metro Park.
Construction companies? Vendors? Event planners/promoters?
It doesn't appear the general public is clamoring for improvements to the park. It isn't about votes. It isn't because the park is in a state of disrepair. It seems more likely to be about money/cronyism.
(Pardon my cynicism. Mr Peyton, if you're reading, chime in and convince us otherwise) [or have one of your people do it]
If you only come downtown for boat shows, isolated special events and football games, then it stands out more.......I guess.
If Metro Park is seen by the city as a higher priority for immediate investment than the Landing/historic preservation/walkable DT core, then the city doesn't view DT Jax as a self sustaining urban neighborhood. Instead, the goal is to make it a place for suburbanites to drive in have some fun and head back across the river.
Let's solve several problems at once:
Convert Kids Kampus to Homeless Haven by executive fiat. No money needed. Homeless can live with what's there and the riverfront view and will be removed, out of site, from core downtown.
Take money saved, pay $3.5 million to Landing Parking fund. Take balance and put in Historic Preservation Fund. Save Trio, Barnett, Fire Station, future Lerners, school houses, etc.
Homeless, Landing, Historic Preservation win. Kids (who don't vote) will have to wait another day. Hey, 3 out 4 not too bad. ;D
Oh Yeah! Just what we need.............something else to drive to with no parking available! Once again Johnny is chock full of idea's and has no funding available............wait I know............another "FEE" right? The City needs to make good on something that was promised 38 years ago, leave the historical funding alone and use what was allocated towards the parking situation! By the way..............stjr I concur with your proposal!
Stjr, take $2 million from your idea to raid Metropolitan Park money and invest it into redoing Hemming Plaza to become a family friendly centralized public space. That way kids win too.
no comment.. Im so off base :D
I have four kids, ranging in age from 5 to 21, and have lived in Jacksonville for more than 20 years. Metro Park is great for Starry Nights events and boaters but Kids Kampus was a mistake from the beginning. The money earmarked for Metro Park should be redirected to the urban core.
I LOVE Lakelander's comment about making Hemming Plaza more family friendly - talk about a critical mass: main library, MOCA, City Hall, new Laura Street, the Landing, rides on the skyway to MOSH. Oh - and within easy walking distance of another park that is much more deserving of attention than Metro Park is (and one where I could even support spending historic preservation funds): Klutho/Confederate/Dignan Park.
I like your thinking Miss Fixit .
Critical mass is a beautiful thing!
a fraction of the money intended for Metro Park would completely rebuild Hemming if you wanted to. However, the benefit of Hemming is that the surrounding environment adds to the experience. So all it really needs is some green space, restrooms and a nice tot lot and fountain. That combined with the Landing, Laura Trio/Barnett, along with library and museum would really turn Laura St into a great place to be.
stephen I would think so! It just makes too much sense, so forget it! This Administration just keeps dropping the ball and wasting money left and right! Until Johnny and his henchpersons are gone, we are going to keep going around and around in circles!
Stephen, if you take all the cash going to Metro Park, then yes.
I agree that Hemming Plaza needs to be more kid-friendly. If you build restrooms, you better be sure you have built a daytime homeless facility first.
I will say it again, a friend of mine who worked at Kids Kampus for a few summers(who was there 5 days a week) said the attendance was far higher at the small water attraction at Hannah Park than that of Kids Kampus. Heck it costs money to get into Hannah Park. What's that tell you?
For KK to be getting a huge chunk of that 8 million dollars is a waste IMO. For Metro Park to be getting anywhere near that amount of money is a waste. You can see from the numbers I posted a few pages back that attendance is declining year after year at Metro Park. It represents possibly the WORST bang for the buck of anything done in the last couple of years downtown.
I agree 100%.
Quote from: stephendare on May 15, 2010, 03:54:36 PM
about as useful as rubber cement based lubricant.
Lol, another reason I came to MetroJax was for these one-liners.
I agree that Hemming Park could use a facelift. The city ruined the aura of the park when they tried to give it a 'contemporary mall' appearance. Suburban mall shoppers were not fooled and downtown continued to decline.
Restroom facilities (open during the day and locked after hours) would benefit people who are using the Skyway and those who visit the park. Hemming Park gets pretty busy during events like ArtWalk. The issue, however, is how many city policies punish the law abiding citizens due to the malfeasance of a few. Homeless people and cruisers were the reason why the restrooms in Hemming Park went away. How about some law enforcement this time around as well as a homeless day center. We would have the added benefit of nice smelling restrooms in the Main Library. Is it just me or do those restrooms always smell like a ripe armpit?
stephen..............I have to agree with your viewpoint regarding the City Council!! Any of them could step up to the line and do whats right when its time to represent the voters who put them into office! That really appears to be very few and not very often! Mostly they appear to scratch each others backside and just flat out disregard what is right for the taxpayers! I give John Boy the credit I do since he is supposed to be an idea man and ran on the platform of "Running the City like a Business"! Ya know how I feel about that! The Mayor is supposed to have a vision and a plan to achieve goals that benefit all of Jacksonville, not just a select few and I am really disappointed in his performance! Council is no better since they are supposed to control the purse strings and they are not doing their job! Past time to clean house and start over big fella......way past time! fieldam...........I would suggest you go to folioweekly.com...........about two issues ago which outlined what took place about 30 years ago............another committee to address downtown issue's, they came to the same conclusions that DVI has come to with a few small differences.......other than that, the exact same conclusions!
CS Foltz - You have hit the nail on the head about how our city government is run. Gate Petroleum, Jr. (If you saw 'Some Like it Hot,' you'll understand the reference) convinced voters that a businessman has what it takes to run the city efficiently. After all, outsiders know much more than those public sector dummies, right? Well, eight years later, we have not a whole lot to show for this man's leadership. We are stuck with a lot of broken ideas, abandoned dreams and no real vision for the future. Now that our mayor is a lame duck, he is saddling us with draconian cutbacks because he has nothing to lose and because he'll simply move back to St. Johns County while our city slides into the toilet.
I especially blame our city's voters for being duped twice by this charlatan whose moneybags and advertising seduced us into believing his crap. The first time around, we were fooled by this rich kid who promised us the moon. The second time around, shame on us, because his megabucks scared away any real competition and we felt the need for a coronation for this man.
Combine this failed mayor with a city council that operates more like a private club and we have what is irreparably harming our city.
Jaxson........I agree! The only difference is that I did not vote for him the first time out nor the second since I had reservations from the onset! The voters have no one to blame but themselves since the voters put him into office not once but twice...........so I guess you could say .....we did it to ourselves! All I have to say about the situation is .........not again! I want someone who has vision of what could be and a plan to bring it to fruition! It would be even better if the Council actually did what they were supposed to but I have reservations about the incumbents and will hope we clean house next election cycle......that is past due!