Adding insult to injury, a worthless urban sprawl highway leading to the destruction of more historic structures. $68 million for this leg of 9B and the State & City couldn't find a few thousand to save this structure? Absurd.
QuoteHumanitarian Eartha White’s 1899 schoolhouse demolished to make way for state highway
Posted: May 10, 2010 - 5:44pm
By Dan Scanlan
The 111-year-old schoolhouse that humanitarian Eartha White built to teach Bayard's African-American children is gone.
A victim of progress and lack of funding, the one-room schoolhouse last used as a feed store at 7420 Roscoe Ave. off Philips Highway was demolished a few weeks ago to make way for Florida 9B.
Efforts to relocate it to Genovar Park in Bayard started years ago. But with no money to move it out of the way of a state road set to run between Florida 9A and U.S. 1, it was the last structure demolished before construction begins this summer.
"It is a tragic loss because of its association with Eartha White when she was an educator," said Jacksonville's senior historic planner, Joel McEachin. "It was one of the oldest one-room schoolhouses in Duval County, and one of the few remaining landmarks of Bayard."
"Once again the wrecking ball was considered the more prudent measure," added Andrew Morrow, executive director of the Mandarin Museum and Historical Society.
State officials said they worked with the city as it tried to secure an historic preservation grant to save the building, which had been moved at least once in its life.
"The state did offer to donate the building and also donate the cost that would otherwise be used to demolish it and let whatever group preserve it," said state Department of Transportation spokeswoman Sandra Mancil. "The city went to Tallahassee to get a grant to preserve it, and ... the grant was denied."
Eartha White convinced landowner Bartolo Genovar to donate property and wood for a school when she was assigned to teach in Bayard in 1899, according to Wayne Wood's "Jacksonville's Architectural Heritage." After she left, it stayed a school, then a church before it was a feed store.
White went on to found the Eartha White Nursing Home and Clara White Mission for the Indigent, and she received the Lane Bryant Volunteer Award in 1970 from President Nixon. She died in 1974.
The future of the schoolhouse, which had a feed store office and warehouse grafted on later, became shaky when the state finalized Florida 9B's route and bought up homes from Florida 9A south of Baymeadows Road to Philips Highway in Bayard. No attempt was made to give it historic preservation status, since the focus was on moving it, said McEachin.
Morrow's society is facing similar woes as it seeks funds to move a 120-year-old historic schoolhouse used to teach African-American children at the old St. Joseph's Catholic School to Walter Jones Historic Park on Mandarin Road.
"We are definitely interested in preserving it, but with the economy, we are trying to keep the museum operating," Morrow said.
Morrow said he was very surprised the White schoolhouse was demolished after city efforts to preserve it. The St. Joseph's schoolhouse is not in danger of a similar fate so far.
http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2010-05-10/story/humanitarian-eartha-white%E2%80%99s-1899-schoolhouse-demolished-make-way-state
>:(
"Insult" is being nice...
Just how many structures pre-1900 remain in Duval County? Can't be many left. Everyone destroyed is a major loss at this point. I don't understand how we can spend any amount of money desired to build roads for developers into the millions of dollars, and can never find the thousands to preserve our history for the benefit of everyone and the generations that follow us.
That the State is complicit in this is outrageous. On the one hand, it gives out historic grants to save these buildings and on the other it tears them down. This is a great example of the failures of government to act effectively.
I believe that the destruction of our past will impair the quality of our future.
At the risk of being stoned, i will say the following. I am as big a history buff as anyone here. I have mixed feelings about this. However, should we reroute a major traffic project for a single building at the cost of millions? Should the building be saved? To what end? To do what with? To sit vacant/crumbling for another 100 years? Do we really expect our broke city, county, state goverments to step in an pony up the funds to save this? Or move it? Where? Who should pay? What would most taxpayers say about this? Clay county moved a historical homestead about 5 years ago down to a little park at the Middleburg boat ramp. Well, it still sitting there, crumblings, looking like an eye sore with no end in sight. Its easy to call this a travesty. But i think moving/conservation is cost prohibitive, especially now adays. I have seen this many times. An old decrepid building sits somewhere decaying for a hundered years. The only folks who ever go inside are vagrants, drug addicts, homeless, etc. Only when someone decides to tear it down, does someone come out of the woodwork crying foul. Oh the humanity, etc. I am a life long resident of Jville (except for my military career). Most recently, i lived in Dover, Delaware, which as the capitol of the "First Stae" has many, many historic structures (mostly brick). This issue is very prevelant up there and magnified in comparison to here. Every old building has SOME historical significance to SOMEONE. Some would have every old building turned into to a museum for something. Progress is caught in the middle. Every section of 9B has been described as worthless urban sprawl, by someone. I suspect the new outer beltway will have the same critics. I and my wife use 9B daily and it makes our lives a whole bunch easier to get where we need to go. From the looks of traffic on it, it makes a lot of people's lives easier. And im no rich developer. If this building was really, really, i mean really significant to someone or some group, they would have put their money where their mouth was and had it moved/conserved themselves. Let the stoning begin.
Rick
Let me toss in another curve ball. Do we really need to be constructing new major highway routes at this time. Many cities are getting rid of highways now because of their expense and negative impact on surrounding areas.
This will just promote more sprawl into St. Johns County which means less tax money for Duval County.
QuoteDo we really expect our broke city, county, state goverments to step in an pony up the funds to save this? Or move it? Where? Who should pay? What would most taxpayers say about this?
Quote
If this building was really, really, i mean really significant to someone or some group, they would have put their money where their mouth was and had it moved/conserved themselves.
Rick, if you had to pay your share of the direct costs to build 9A (you said 9B but that doesn't yet exist, so I presume it's 9A you are referring to) or any other road you drive, you wouldn't pay for it any more than a single party might pay to save an historic building. What ends up happening is all taxpayers share in the costs of roads, whether they drive them or not. If this same standard was applied to this case, there would be funds to save this building. By the way, that broke government you are talking about, has tens and hundreds of millions they can find to build roads like this. So, surely they can find a few thousand for this building's preservation. Not sure they are as broke as they would have you believe.
And, you are correct, if you peruse MJ threads, you will find that the Outer Beltway has perhaps even more critics than 9B. So, welcome to the stoning in progress. ;D
I might add that, for many, the issue isn't a question of building for transportation needs, but what mode might best serve the greatest numbers of people cost effectively while sustaining the highest overall level of quality of life. Building roads versus mass transit and/or more dense development is the issue.
The road is convenient for you because other roads creating sprawl where previously built. With your logic, we will one day pave over everything in the rush to get from every point A to every point B by car as directly as possible. Clearly, this is not sustainable and a line must be drawn somewhere. 9B is particularly bad because it parallels nearby and adequate existing roads and appears to primarily serve the interest of landowners along its ROW. As you note, in tight times like this, this much needed money could be better spent elsewhere, even widening the 9A you already are using, if not for mass transit, etc.
STJR, you have elevated this into a civics lesson in road planning and development. I dont want to go there. I sense you never met a major road project you liked. I stand by my comments. Yes, i meant 9A, not 9B. The fact is, new roads will be needed and will continue to be built. I would argue that if you travel Blanding Blvd or Hwy 17 every day during rush hour, you might be in the camp supporting the need for a new beltway (regardless of whether you agree/disagree with the route chosen). I suspect there are folks on both sides of the river who appreciate 9A besides land developers as well. Oh and by the way, where was the uproar over the last 20-30 (or how ever long) years when this historically significant school house was being used as a lowly feed store? Again, please answer the question of what you would have the govt do with this building, exactly, at taxpayers expense?
It had been moved before, could have been moved again.
Quote from: RMHoward on May 12, 2010, 08:33:49 PM
I sense you never met a major road project you liked.
It seems foolhardy to me to build new roads through remaining undeveloped land in most parts of the U.S. when we could conserve the land and its resources (such as water), avoid the taxpayer subsidized expense of bringing infrastructure to it and re-mediating the damage we cause, spare detriment to our environment, recycle/rebuild/rehabilitate our existing developed areas, and create commutes that are both shorter and more energy efficient . There are limits to development, plain and simple. The only issue is where those limits are. Obviously, I feel we are far closer to them than you believe.
Improve existing roads all you would like although it appears to me we are near the limits on this as well. When those limits are achieved, mass transit will have to step in to increase the volume of traffic over those existing routes. I believe the sooner we deal with this the better, especially given the current state of our limited resources.
By the way, how about the converse, have you ever met a road project you didn't like?
STJR, i suspect you would have been against Eisenhower's interstate highway system back in the 50s,60s and 70s arguing that there were plenty of roads already in place.
Have i ever met a road project i was against?
Honestly, i cant think of one off the top of my head that i was offended by. Maybe if i lived in Boston, i would have been against the "big dig". I will give Florida DOT a little credit for ensuring there is a need, or projected need, for a project before they subject themselves to all the critics and spend billions of taxpayers dollars. But you would probably argue that they are all in the pockets of some rich developer or land owner. I dont know, maybe i am a little nieve.
Again, i seriously question the historical value of this building. This state has a million little hamlets like Bayard that probably had a one room school house for black only children. They all probably had a teacher who did great things. What makes this one so special? This is my last post on this subject. You have the last word.
Rick
New roads will be built. However, they don't have to cost taxpayers billions to construct, to only encourage more development of the same that caused us to pay for their additions in the first place. Our road investment cost can be significantly reduced over time through the use of investing in mass transit alternatives, "complete street" style projects and complementing land development policies. With these types of things in place, you will eliminate the need for projects like 9B, which ultimately means the neighborhoods and buildings they impact won't have to be bailed out with additional city money to fund their relocation.
Nice in theory. If there was a demand for mass transit (by the people who would use it), we would demand it of our leaders, and we would have it. We dont, so they dont. We Jacksonvillians like to drive our autos and not wait in line to get on a bus/tram/train, etc. Sorry, jus the way it is. Now, back the issue at hand. The historical relevance of this building.......
PS, i lied. That wasnt my last post.
Rick
Lol, the said the same thing about Charlotte, Dallas, Houston and Salt Lake City before their new rail lines opened. Now residents are begging for more as ridership outpaces initial estimates in these sprawlers where people love to drive. Jax resident driving habits are no different from any other spread out sprawler mentioned above.
Seriously, there's no demand for 9B that local roads and mass transit options can't be improved to handle. Also, if you want to slow down the proliferation of sprawl you need to stop doing the same crazy things that feed it's growth and encourage it. This theory is taking place in most major cities across the country. Both old dense communities and sunbelt sprawlers. All one has to do is just look around if they are really interested on saving taxpayer dollars on public infrastructure projects.
Quote from: RMHoward on May 12, 2010, 12:52:05 PM
At the risk of being stoned, i will say the following. I am as big a history buff as anyone here. I have mixed feelings about this. However, should we reroute a major traffic project for a single building at the cost of millions? Should the building be saved? To what end? To do what with? To sit vacant/crumbling for another 100 years? Do we really expect our broke city, county, state goverments to step in an pony up the funds to save this? Or move it? Where? Who should pay? What would most taxpayers say about this? Clay county moved a historical homestead about 5 years ago down to a little park at the Middleburg boat ramp. Well, it still sitting there, crumblings, looking like an eye sore with no end in sight. Its easy to call this a travesty. But i think moving/conservation is cost prohibitive, especially now adays. I have seen this many times. An old decrepid building sits somewhere decaying for a hundered years. The only folks who ever go inside are vagrants, drug addicts, homeless, etc. Only when someone decides to tear it down, does someone come out of the woodwork crying foul. Oh the humanity, etc. I am a life long resident of Jville (except for my military career). Most recently, i lived in Dover, Delaware, which as the capitol of the "First Stae" has many, many historic structures (mostly brick). This issue is very prevelant up there and magnified in comparison to here. Every old building has SOME historical significance to SOMEONE. Some would have every old building turned into to a museum for something. Progress is caught in the middle. Every section of 9B has been described as worthless urban sprawl, by someone. I suspect the new outer beltway will have the same critics. I and my wife use 9B daily and it makes our lives a whole bunch easier to get where we need to go. From the looks of traffic on it, it makes a lot of people's lives easier. And im no rich developer. If this building was really, really, i mean really significant to someone or some group, they would have put their money where their mouth was and had it moved/conserved themselves. Let the stoning begin.
Rick
First of all this additional Interstate addition is NOT NECESSARY at this point. Secondly and SADLY, Jacksonville Florida in my honest humble opinion is second to no major city in the US by destroying it's Historic buildings to make way for "progress"... I have lost count of the beautiful landmarks destroyed just in my time. While I fully realize that nothing lasts forever, and that a century ago , a fire destroyed much of the downtown area, this is different...this is controlled by man, and at the will of select individuals instead of the majority, that being ,WE the taxpayers.,,.. they just obliterate everything that was ever beautiful and origonal or important, in this case,,,for a friggin highway that will not even be heavily used for maybe sometime to come. Makes me sick. Typical of Duval county .
Third and most important point... How much could it possibly cost to move a one room , over century old and VERY SIGNIFICANT School House , a quarter mile out of the way of the intended path of the interstate? This is absurd and nothing short of.
A similar mindset was used by the Jacksonville Expressway Authority to put what would eventually be , an Interstate Highway, and eventually two Interstates that connect to one another. This ingenious moved resulted in the death ,as a School house, of PS #4. That was such an ingenious move, that since that time , no identifiable reuse has ever been determined for it. Another case of history making way for progress.. but at what cost.. There is no good reason that the interstate could not have run where the Acosta Bridge was and made the intersection at some point North of where it presently is.... This was such an ingenious move, that now , we are doing a multimillion dollar rennovation to the I-10 /95 mergers to somehow , fix the mess that has always been there , since day one. Not only does #4 suffer for that, it resulted in many other buildings coming down for the interchange....and maybe in a year or so, we will finally after 50 + years have a workable intersection....instead of the cluster-F@#$ of a mess that was there before.
Feel free to throw stones at me as well. I love history and historic buildings, and I think this City has always lacked when it came to vision and caring and preserving our very few remaining Historic Landmarks of a century or more ago... #4 is 93 years old now. I think the single thing that has saved it thus far is its protected landmark status , and an owner who was perseverant to keep it there. A real shame the One Room School house is gone forever.
I think there is another branch of this forum to discuss the merits of various road projects. Having recently visited Charlotte, I didnt see any Japanese style mass transit going on there as we would be led to believe. I think we should stick to history here. One man's SIGNIFICANTLY HISTORICAL building has been another man's run of the mill feed store for how long? I give up. You guys are right. I suggest all of you who are appalled by this should start a fund so that you can head off the next travesty to history. Donate your funds or better yet, one of your back yards for the next building move destination. Also, budget for the roof change in 20 years, termite treatments every year, paint every 4-5 years, landscaping around it, etc. etc. Also budget for full time security for it. Thats better than the rest of us paying for it via our tax dollars. Now if it was the former home of say, Thomas Jefferson, Robert E. Lee, US Grant, Patton, or the like, then count me and my tax dollars all in. Until then, a 1 room school house, white or black dont cut it in my book. Now go ahead and state again how stupid the road is instead of the merits of the building's historical significance.
Rick
At the end of the day its bigger than this old building, even though its demise is caused by a road project (so they are related). Everything operates on a cause and effect basis. Because our community is forced to spend so much of the general budget paying and maintaining sprawling road related issues, there's little money left over for quality of life projects like historic preservation, park maintenance and keeping libraries open.
If any argument is to be made on saving taxpayer dollars, we need to focus on cutting down on the elephant in the room (the massive sprawl producers = roads) instead of the flies on the wall (little old school buildings in Bayard). With that said, I'm in complete favor of all major future road projects being toll (including 9B). At least in this scenario, they get partially funded by "user" fees.
Rick, a building doesn't have to be the site of an historic event or the home of a famous person in history to be of historical value. Buildings that are used by the common man and represent the way of life of such people are instructive to all in showing and reminding us of how are society developed into its present being. In the extreme, the Rockefellers went out of their way to see to the creation of Williamsburg for the sole purpose of demonstrating everyday life around the birth of our country.
Do people not marvel at "everyday" historic artifacts such as factories, banks, gas stations, carriage houses, mills, farm houses, churches, stores, bridges, homes, hotels, automobiles, trains, planes, ships, clocks, furniture, art, books and letters, aqueducts, ruins of past civilizations, and ... yes, schools? Of course, they do, as they attempt to contemplate and understand what our fore bearers endured and contributed to in building the world we live in.
One room school houses were an integral part of the beginning of education in this country and serve as stark and living examples of how education has been transformed and how fortunate students are to enjoy the amenities and technological advancements found in our schools today. Maybe if more people in our society experienced similar examples of how we once lived, they would learn to live life more appreciatively and less materialistically than they do.
To stand in the midst of actual history and experience its presence and living spirit is beyond anything we can take from books, movies, or other media. The destruction of each of these opportunities is equivalent to the extinction of a small part of the that which is a part of all of us.
Rick seems to be slightly confused, which is alright, but yes historical artifacts are cool to see and learn about. The schoolhouse should of been moved, and now we should complain to the city about the destruction of important historical artifacts.
Supporting Rick, the highway system is a very important system that only the US has. While the primary system has been built, any additions to the system need to be done wisely because they will promote growth good or bad.
Will agree wholeheartedly with stjr's post. agree mostly with Mattius ..except in the part of "complaining to the City" The " City" isnt listening. The "City" has not listened for decades... otherwise we would not have the sprawling amounts of surface parking in downtown , alot of which are the Slabs or Foundations of Some really beautiful and timely pieces of architecture , forever gone.
As to the 9B addition... I know it is a given that it will proceed and concur with Lake, that it should probably be toll. But do we need it at this point?? .. Again rather than expending the money to demolish a one room school building (probably not alot of cost ) to go to a landfill forever ...could it not have been moved somewhere so that possibly someone just might have wanted it for their backyard... Maybe a long shot and pointless to ponder now , since it is gone.
In the future of roadways , developments , and new building practices, I would love to see this City's mindset when it comes to Older Structures , CHANGE.... meaning to see the very VERY little bit that remains , do just that. Remain. I suppose in the case of School 4 , FDOT could have, at will taken the building and property and demolished the building , seeing as their right of way is almost at the steps to the building now.
It just seems a little ridiculous that a small wooden structure had to be destroyed , rather than spared... But there is those of us who care about these and other "antiques" and those who , CLEARLY , do not .
FDOT doesn't care about history, they care about building roads, even if they are stupid.
Schoolhouse #4 is cool, but it needs work, lots of work. The question is, when?
Well......for starters ....in TWO WEEKS , we will begin a massive cleanup again on the School premises....this is inside and out.. and I agree completely that it needs alot of work... for one to begin remedial work , in any event they would have to have access. SO...we are beginning that process by clearing out the destruction caused by vandals, the remains of the failed auditorium roof ( that of which is still inside parts of the school ) . Hey..its a start. Its new owner is going to agressively market it.. I feel this can only help a potential investor or developer see through the ruins to what is actually there.
When will its renovation happen?? Im working on that as well. Have been sending leads to the owner, since I met his agent there 2 weeks ago. I am determined (and hope I will have a following on this ) to see #4 not only spared ,but back in use. It is a given that it can never be a School again.. but there should be some viable purpose ,for which it could see re-use. IMO the mindset for it in the past was always proposed for residential. I think if that were going to work , we would not be discussing it now, and instead would be looking at a 93 year old building in use.
What about a Museum or a Library??
Both are good ideas...what ever is identified as a reuse would have to be one that makes the investment and renovation costs bearable..
For now shes getting a cleanup inside and out.. and that is the first major step forward on her in 30 years. I was denied access to the building prior to now.. and of course I do not want anyone getting hurt, helping clean it up. Also ..the owner agrees to this , so long as the volunteer agrees to sign and adhere to, a hold harmless waiver.
I'm involved in the cleanup - Tim knows that already. I can't wait to step foot in the building - I've been curious for a long time about what's inside. But my thoughts really belong on the PS4 thread I think.
I'd like to know why a lot of people think a building is useless or unattractive unless or until it's removed from a major roadway system? I don't mean demolished. It's a part of the landscape, just like a large live oak, so treat it as such with special consideration. However, if it's going to collapse when a car races by then it should go.
Quote from: Mattius92 on May 13, 2010, 11:13:16 PM
Rick seems to be slightly confused, which is alright, but yes historical artifacts are cool to see and learn about. The schoolhouse should of been moved, and now we should complain to the city about the destruction of important historical artifacts.
Supporting Rick, the highway system is a very important system that only the US has. While the primary system has been built, any additions to the system need to be done wisely because they will promote growth good or bad.
Not confused at all Mattius, just practical. Where do you draw the line at which old buildings governement has a responsibility to save? The house i grew up in on the west side is now in shambles. It has significant historical significance to my family. I demand the city take some action to save this old home site. I demand satisfaction. And if I don't get it, i hope you will "complain to the city about the destruction of important historical artifacts".
Well then why do you not appeal to have it saved ?? :)
Quote from: Cliffs_Daughter on May 14, 2010, 09:46:54 AM
I'm involved in the cleanup - Tim knows that already. I can't wait to step foot in the building - I've been curious for a long time about what's inside. But my thoughts really belong on the PS4 thread I think.
I'd like to know why a lot of people think a building is useless or unattractive unless or until it's removed from a major roadway system? I don't mean demolished. It's a part of the landscape, just like a large live oak, so treat it as such with special consideration. However, if it's going to collapse when a car races by then it should go.
Thank you CD .. :) Feel free to start that thread at your convenience. Most likely will begin THIS weekend by mowing the property... It is in major need in many ways..
As to the inside... when one can see through the destruction of nearly 40 years of vandalism, and neglect .... It is still a rather beautiful building.. Amazingly alot of the architectural features are intact still .
Cannot wait to get rolling on it and cannot wait to see the finished product. :)