Metro Jacksonville

Bishop wants to look at intersection again

Quoteby Mike Sharkey

Staff Writer


City Council member Bill Bishop has Michigan on his mind â€" Michigan U-turns, that is.

Bishop is sponsoring a bill that former City Council member Lynette Self originated, but withdrew shortly before she left office at the end of June. The bill seeks to require JTA to install what are known as Michigan U-turns at the Atlantic Boulevard/Kernan Road intersection instead of the Better Jacksonville Plan-mandated overpass on Atlantic. Bishop is convinced his $12 million Michigan U-turns will prove just as effective at moving traffic as the $42 million overpass JTA intends to start early next year.

Tuesday, Bishop continued to lobby for the bill when he met with Council members Jay Jabour, Stephen Joost and Glorious Johnson as well as representatives from JTA and the engineering firm of Reynolds, Smith and Hills, Inc. In addition to the cost savings, Bishop contends the people of Jacksonville didn’t realize what they were doing when they overwhelmingly approved the interchanges with the Better Jacksonville Plan in 2000.

“I don’t think five people in this town knew they were voting for overpasses when they were voting for interchanges,” said Bishop, whose Dist. 2 and Council member Richard Clark’s Dist. 3 meet at the intersection of Atlantic and Kernan. “When they found out about the interchanges, they didn’t like it. I’m picking it (the bill) up.”

According to figures Bishop obtained from the First Coast Metropolitan Planning Organization, 65,000 vehicles pass through the intersection on Atlantic Boulevard and 29,915 pass through on Kernan on a daily basis. JTA contends the Michigan U-turns may work in the short term.

“This doesn’t solve the problem in the long term,” said JTA spokesman Mike Miller, adding JTA does not support Bishop’s legislation. Miller also said the interchange is needed for safety reasons. “This is the most dangerous intersection in the city. There are more accidents at this intersection than any other.”

The Michigan U-turn is a traffic concept in which large U-turns are built on both sides of the intersection well beyond the intersection and require cars to pass through the intersection and make a U-turn in an effort to actually turn left. For example, under Bishop’s plan, drivers heading east on Atlantic wishing to turn north on Kernan would pass through the intersection about 250 yards, make a U-turn and head west before making a right onto northbound Kernan. RS&H traffic engineer Dave Stroud argues this concept during high traffic times would eventually create a backup at the U-turns that would extend into the major intersection. Stroud worked and lived in Michigan and says the Michigan U-turns only work when there is one major and one minor road involved. In an intersection such as Atlantic and Kernan, drivers trying to make the U-turn would also have to negotiate across three lanes of traffic in a relatively short distance.

Stroud also explained part of the problem at the intersection â€" in addition to the growth the area has seen the past decade â€" is the fact both Atlantic and Kernan were not built for today’s traffic volume. Stroud said that is indicative of the road-building philosophy in Florida as opposed to Michigan.

“In Florida, we build two lanes, then widen to four then widen to six lanes,” he said. “In Michigan, roads are typically a minimum of five lanes. You’ll see very little traffic on roads that are built decades before the traffic is there.”

Both Stroud and Miller stressed that JTA is looking at creating a solution that will work until at least the year 2028, at which point over 1,000 vehicles an hour are expected to turn left onto either road. Stroud also said the current medians on Atlantic are not wide enough for a Michigan U-turn, meaning JTA would have to acquire 12-20 feet of right-of-way on the north side of Atlantic Boulevard.

Miller added another factor that must be taken into consideration is the wishes of the Florida Department of Transportation. While the interchange may be a Better Jacksonville Plan and JTA project, Atlantic Boulevard is owned by the DOT and therefore DOT must approve any traffic solution.

“DOT has also weighed in on this with two letters and they do not recommend an at-grade solution,” said Miller. “They agree the overpass is the best option. Ultimately, they own that road and we need their approval and support. They are not supporting the Michigan U-turns. We believe that if we put in Michigan U-turns, it may be beneficial for the next 10 years, but after that, we will have to fix it again.”

Bishop insists his plan will work and save taxpayers $30 million along the way.

“My whole contention is if you design this properly, you can do it safely,” said Bishop. “It’s $45 million versus $12 million. It’s a perfectly good, viable option. This is an issue of policy and of what we want our city to be. I can’t in good conscience spend $30 million when that money can be spent on projects that don’t have money.

“I am bringing this back to the new Council with hopefully some new thoughts.”

Johnson questioned who was urging Bishop to reintroduce the legislation. Bishop didn’t say anyone in particular was backing his bill, but did disclose that the Sleiman family owns both the strip mall containing the Wal-Mart and the strip mall containing the Sam’s Wholesale Club.

Miller said JTA has held town hall meetings for residents and business owners in the area and says the overpass idea has support. JTA, Miller said, is also in a tough spot. If the current legislation gets held up in committee, current progress on the overpass will stall. If Bishop’s bill passes, everything JTA has done to date on the overpass will have been for naught.

“We have a plan and a design and are in the preconstruction phase,” said Miller. “Our concern, as well as DOT’s, is we have to respond today to the congestion problem we know is coming in 30 years. That’s our job.

“We want to start taking bids in November and start the project in the first quarter of 2008. It will be done in the third quarter of 2010.

“Council voted to approve this overpass in 2005. Just as we were about to go to bid for construction, Council opened the same wound (when it voted to deny the overpass). How many times are we going to do this? These projects will never get done. How much money will be wasted if we come to a grinding halt and have to redesign the project?”

Bishop said he hopes there’s a good turnout at Tuesday’s full Council meeting when there’s a public hearing scheduled on the bill.

http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=48261

I'm pretty familiar with the Michigan U.  My wife is from Detroit and we travel up there quite frequently.  Typically, at the major intersections there is a separate stop light for the U-Turn, giving those who what to make left turns, the option to do so, without worrying about merging into four lanes of traffic.  So instead of an interchange, you end up with a main traffic signal and four smaller ones.

So what does a Michigan U look like?

at a large intersection (like Atlantic and Kernan)
(http://www.scag.ca.gov/lctf/061103/images/Venice_U_turns.jpg)

at a small intersection
(http://www.michiganhighways.org/images/michigan_left.gif)

Here are a few aerials.

This Michigan U serves two eight lane highways, which is opposite to what Stroud claims.

QuoteStroud worked and lived in Michigan and says the Michigan U-turns only work when there is one major and one minor road involved.

(http://attap.umd.edu/img/ImageLibrary/MUT23.jpg)

Here's an image of one of the smaller signals for left turners.
(http://attap.umd.edu/img/ImageLibrary/MUT7.jpg)

Personally, I like Bishop's thinking and creativity with the suggestion of this, as opposed to building overpasses all over town.  I hope more council members would question many of the things they normally approve without debate or proper study that costs taxpayers millions of dollars out there.

While an overpass may be best for moving cars, what is the effect of them on our neighborhoods?  In the Northside, they have been pretty damaging. See the New Springfield photo thread for proof.

New Springfield: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/554/

It's definately worth the discussion.  As for Miller's statement that FDOT is against it and would like an overpass.  Tell them to pony up the $30 million dollar difference instead of Jax taxpayers.

Quote“We have a plan and a design and are in the preconstruction phase,” said Miller. “Our concern, as well as DOT’s, is we have to respond today to the congestion problem we know is coming in 30 years. That’s our job.

“We want to start taking bids in November and start the project in the first quarter of 2008. It will be done in the third quarter of 2010.

“Council voted to approve this overpass in 2005. Just as we were about to go to bid for construction, Council opened the same wound (when it voted to deny the overpass). How many times are we going to do this? These projects will never get done. How much money will be wasted if we come to a grinding halt and have to redesign the project?”

I'm one of the few in town that believes, you're better off scrapping design work on paper if a better and more affordable solution is found before construction breaks ground.  If one or two million has been spent preparing for an overpass, but an alternative solution that works can save $30 million on the overall project, I'd take the alternative and save $28 million.  I have a fear, as more people learn about BRT and question the validity of spending $750 million for a bus system that costs more than rail, JTA will use a similar excuse.

So the guy says that Michigan Lefts only work where a minor road meets a major road?  So I guess that means a 6 lane divided boulevard meeting another six lane divided boulevard is minor? (8 Mile Road or M102, meeting Grand River Avenue or M5) in Redford/Livonia.

We use these in conjunction with I96 (Jeffries Fwy) through Livonia as well.  It is a sunken freeway with service drives and overpasses.  If one is driving North up, say, Middlebelt Road (4 lane with turn lane) and want to go West on I96, you must make a RIGHT turn onto the service drive (head EAST), go OVER the freeway, make a LEFT onto the opposing service drive (head WEST), drive OVER Middlebelt (the road you were just on) and down the freeway onramp.  It works a hell of alot better than making that left turn.  Cuts the congestion at the intersection allowing cross traffic to move freely at all times.  At worst the traffic backs up over the bridges.  Also, traffic signals can be timed to make best use of this setup (Although Jacksonville seems to have this penchant for those annoying sensor-activated signals, practically destroying the "green wave" that one can catch on a Michigan Boulevard or Avenue)

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Michigan_left_lighted_sign.jpg)

Yeah, I was just checking out Google Earth after reading your post.  Here are a few more major intersections with Michigan U's instead of overpasses.  Btw, all of roads involved have six to eight lanes of traffic.  If this stuff works on major highways in a metro that has over 5 million residents on streets busier that Kernan, it probably will in Jax.

1. Grand River Avenue at Telegraph Road
2. Ford Road at Schaefer Road
3. Eight Mile at Mound
4. East Outer Drive at Mound
5. 16 Mile (Metro Service Parkway) at Mound

Actually, cant you make a Michigan Left at that intersection anyway?  Sure it'll be unprotected at the turn around (no light), but you can do it...  Try it next time youre around there, its not as "weird" as everybody thinks.

http://www.michigan.gov/drive/0,1607,7-246-45723-161777--,00.html


An article on Michigan Lefts from the State of Michigan.

An Interesting paragraph from said section.

What are the maximum/minimum traffic volume requirements for the Michigan Left?

There are no absolute requirements. Michigan Lefts increase capacity and safety on divided roadways at all volumes. Indirect left-turns have been used on state routes with average traffic volumes (ADT) of between 10,000 and 100,000 vehicles per day.




How many cars does Atlantic/Kernan handle a day?

Kicked to the curb.... From the Jaxdailyrecord.com:

Atlantic/Kernan U-turn voted down

09/05/2007
by David Ball
Staff Writer

The City Council Finance Committee was in transportation mode during its meeting Tuesday, as the committee debated ordinances involving two key Jacksonville intersections.

The committee voted down what was likely the most controversial issue â€" a proposal by City Council member Bill Bishop to replace a proposed overpass at the intersection of Atlantic Boulevard and Kernan Road with a U-turn design known as a “Michigan U-turn.”

The committee also deferred action on an ordinance to approve a licensing agreement with Florida East Coast Railway to construct and maintain an expanded railroad crossing at Greenland Road west of Phillips Highway at a cost of $864,426 along with a $6,000 annual “licensing fee.” Staff said the city has never paid such a licensing fee before.

Both items require a vote by the full City Council. And while the railroad discussion sparked talks of eminent domain, the discussion surrounding the much-debated Atlantic and Kernan overpass created a definite division among Council members.

JTA officials, who supported the original concept of an Atlantic overpass over Kernan, began by giving graphic illustrations of what the Michigan U-turn would look like. Essentially, drivers who wanted to turn left on either Atlantic or Kernan would travel straight through the busy intersection, make a U-turn and then turn right on the desired road, thereby eliminating the need for a traffic light.

JTA Executive Director Mike Blaylock said the overpass design was part of a highly studied overall traffic improvement plan, and although the U-turn could save nearly $30 million, it was not the best use of dollars.

“In looking at transportation planning, nothing should be in a vacuum,” he said.

JTA consultant David Stroud of Reynolds, Smith & Hills said the U-turn design was “very unconventional” for Jacksonville, and may create even more traffic problems in the form of accidents.

“Michigan U-turns do work, but it has to be in the proper location,” said Stroud. “This is not the right location.”

Bishop, who is not a member of the Finance Committee, said he took offense that “people from Jacksonville aren’t smart enough to drive on this” U-turn.

“What it’s about is doing what’s right,” he added. “This thing hasn’t even started off the ground yet, and it’s already affected lives.”

Bishop and Council member Clay Yarborough, also not a committee member, gave examples of how the Arlington Expressway through their districts has eroded the business and residential areas. Committee members Art Graham and Richard Clark argued the opposite.

“Businesses in (my) area are thriving,” said Graham, referring to the intersection of 9A and Baymeadows Road. He said recent home listings in nearby Deerwood are well above $600,000.

“The overpass did not do anything to kill the neighborhood,” he added. “We’ve gone through all this before. We should’ve half-way built this thing (at Atlantic and Kernan) by now.”

Clark said traffic congestion, not the Arlington Expressway, has led to economic troubles, and the same fate awaits the Atlantic/Kernan exchange.

“People avoid that intersection like a plague,” said Clark. “It’s the single worst intersection in the city of Jacksonville.”

Clark quickly called for a vote, which ended in a 3-3 tie with Committee Vice Chair Kevin Hyde absent in another city meeting. After Hyde joined the meeting, the Michigan U-turn proposal failed in a 5-2 vote.

The next regular meeting of the Finance Committee is scheduled for Sept. 17.

Wow!  I'm not going to agrue the pros and cons of the Michigan U, but some things in this article are troubling...

QuoteJTA Executive Director Mike Blaylock said the overpass design was part of a highly studied overall traffic improvement plan, and although the U-turn could save nearly $30 million, it was not the best use of dollars.

“In looking at transportation planning, nothing should be in a vacuum,” he said.

Hopefully, JTA means this! Nothing should be in a vacuum, which is exactly what the planning of the BRT proposal is.

QuoteJTA consultant David Stroud of Reynolds, Smith & Hills said the U-turn design was “very unconventional” for Jacksonville, and may create even more traffic problems in the form of accidents.

“Michigan U-turns do work, but it has to be in the proper location,” said Stroud. “This is not the right location.”

Bishop, who is not a member of the Finance Committee, said he took offense that “people from Jacksonville aren’t smart enough to drive on this” U-turn.

I kind of take offense to that as well.  People here are smarter than many give them credit for.

QuoteBishop and Council member Clay Yarborough, also not a committee member, gave examples of how the Arlington Expressway through their districts has eroded the business and residential areas. Committee members Art Graham and Richard Clark argued the opposite.

“Businesses in (my) area are thriving,” said Graham, referring to the intersection of 9A and Baymeadows Road. He said recent home listings in nearby Deerwood are well above $600,000.

“The overpass did not do anything to kill the neighborhood,” he added. “We’ve gone through all this before. We should’ve half-way built this thing (at Atlantic and Kernan) by now.”

Clark said traffic congestion, not the Arlington Expressway, has led to economic troubles, and the same fate awaits the Atlantic/Kernan exchange.

Umm, anyone who would view the development of Arlington and Deerwood the same, in relation to overpasses, does not have a good education with transit planning and it's affects on communities.  Deerwood is more of a collection of gated subdivisions than a true neighborhood.  Walkability is not an issue in Deerwood, because not many walk outside of the subdivisions any way.

On the other hand, the Arlington Expressway split that area into two.  How many times have you driven down that thing only to see people run across it and jump through a hole in the median to cross the expressway?  They do this because there is no other choice but walking a mile out of the way to get to a neighborhood destination that's really right across the street.

To accurately compare, 9A would have to run directly in the middle of Deerwood's golf course.  Do that and then see how many homes stay valued well above $600k.