Elements of Urbanism: Mobile
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Metro Jacksonville explores the downtown of Alabama's port city: Mobile
Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2010-apr-elements-of-urbanism-mobile
Didja know the Battlehouse tower is taller than our own BOA tower? 745 ft with the spire to our tallest, 560(ish) 617 ft. I remember when it was under construction in 2006, I was driving back from upstate Louisiana and right before I plunged into the Mobile Bay tunnel I saw it on the horizon...it was like "BAM! In your face Jacksonville, Mobile's winning at the height game"
I had been through Mobile before on numerous trips across I-10 to New Orleans so it caught me off guard to see such a tall building in a city the size of Mobile.
I'm sure the Independent Life building had the same effect on I-95 travelers back in the 70's, considering our size back then.
The Bank of America Tower is 617 ft. I think Modis is 535.
Wow! Mobile looks great. From a quick drive by, Mobile seems to have their act together a lot better than Jax. I like the fact that they seem to embrace their past and historic structures, invest in their downtown area, and have a general sense of identity, but I must say their high-rise structures are not very ascetically pleasing.
The part I find tough to agree with is:
"Who's Downtown is more walkable?
Mobile: 89 out of 100, according to walkscore.com (Downtown Mobile as keyword)
Jacksonville: 88 out of 100, according to walkscore.com"
Mobile's downtown has a lot more reasons to be walking downtown. Retail, restaurants, residential units, office buildings and etc.; they actually have an Urban core that is worth walking. I don't think I can honestly say this about Jax.
Looks like Jax could learn alot from Mobile.
Quote from: Lunican on April 30, 2010, 01:45:55 PM
The Bank of America Tower is 617 ft. I think Modis is 535.
Yeah, I was going on the false equation of feet = meters multiplied by 3. Good catch.
Either way, they're winning!.
hard to believe downtown Mobile has more of a demand for downtown office space than Jacksonville. The last major office tower constructed in DT Jacksonville (northbank, excluding Riverside) was the BofA tower in 1990. what a shame!
another interesting fact - the origins of the Mobile Home:
http://www.snopes.com/lost/mobile.asp
RSA Tower cheates with that gigantic ass spire.
One thing that really stuck out to me in Mobile was the city's maintenance of public park space. It was pristine compared to what we have locally.
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Also, I remember having a discussion about convention centers and the possibility of integrating parking within them. I was trying to prove that you could integrate parking with a convention center. Mobile's waterfront convention center (which is larger than ours) is a good example of one that does just that.
Front of convention center
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Back of center with parking underneath
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Another city that's clearly screwing everything up! I don't see parking meters everywhere, and they're making their downtown 2-way streets? Sheeeesh...someone needs to write them and let them know what horrible mistakes they're making!
Even before the reinvestment in downtown and the boom (arguably, the ruination) of the Eastern Shore, the heart of downtown Mobile was always like a sleepy, unknown New Orleans neighborhood. I spent my high school years in Fairhope, and downtown Mobile offered good food, good dives, good music, lovely architecture in various states of decay, and some eclectic places, the grit of working port, and like its larger cousin NOLA, carnival and a flexible drinking age. But the city largely ignored itself until the late-nineties, paying more attention to the western suburbs.
The city permitted the destruction of umpteen historic homes on Government Blvd. in the 1960s and it wasn’t too long ago that the city council was thinking of tearing down a bunch of houses from the early 1800s near Fort Conde. Instead, they wisely pumped money into renovation incentives.
If anything, the Mobile example proves to Jax that if you keep your historical building fabric and your working waterfront in tact, you can overcome a lot of obstacles in terms of a population that ignores downtown, a lack of funds, the less-than-scenic elements that come with a working port, and city government who learns planning acumen as they go.
Oh, and Mobile didn’t pass on the chance to have a large Navy vessel anchor its downtown waterfront (and smartly used it to hide an ugly part of the ship channel).
*Edited. Stupid small blackberry keys.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on April 30, 2010, 04:23:23 PM
Another city that's clearly screwing everything up! I don't see parking meters everywhere, and they're making their downtown 2-way streets? Sheeeesh...someone needs to write them and let them know what horrible mistakes they're making!
Dauphin Street is the main historic commercial corridor through downtown Mobile. While side streets do have meters, the street with most of the retail shops and restaurants does not. Instead parking is free, for up to two hours. There's no reason this can't be done in Jacksonville in the heart of the Northbank.
after looking at the pictures more closely, I want to know who's brother-in-law is in the truss business. I looks like all new buildings Mobile have them, including the high-rises.
Quote from: David on April 30, 2010, 01:43:06 PM
"BAM! In your face Jacksonville, Mobile's winning at the height game"
BAM! In your face to alotta other cities too, like Birmingham, New Orleans, Tampa, Orlando, Nashville, Cincinnati, Baltimore, and on, and on, and on.
Mobile is also home of the original U.S.Mardi Gras; They started theirs fifteen years before N.O.'s according to wiki.
I can see alotta cities being envious of Mobile.
Mobile is not what it appears to be. It's losing population, the Battlehouse Tower does cheat with the spire (imagine a 150 foot spire on BOA), and what the hell is that second tall building that looks similar to the Battlehouse Tower (or am I seeing things...it is not even listed in skyscraperpage.com)? That one is new, I've never seen that tower before; how tall is it? It looks taller than BOA as well.
"HU"
Quote from: fsujax on April 30, 2010, 01:58:25 PM
The last major office tower constructed in DT Jacksonville (northbank, excluding Riverside) was the BofA tower in 1990.
Northbank, excluding Riverside? Make more stipulations like west of the Modis Bldg, and east of AT&T Tower. LOL, Just kidding.
Quote from: heights unknown on April 30, 2010, 07:03:43 PM
what the hell is that second tall building that looks similar to the Battlehouse Tower (or am I seeing things...it is not even listed in skyscraperpage.com)?
It's the Renaissance Riverview Plaza Hotel. I checked on emporis, and it's only 28 floors. It don't have an official height total yet, but I'm sure that it's far from being taller than BOA, it's probably in the 400-500 ft range even with the cheating spire.
That hotel tower is a building that was renovated after the RSA Tower was completed. During the renovation, they threw a spire on top of it.
QuoteIt was pristine compared to what we have locally.
Jax has some of the worst maintained parks in the Southern US, that I have seen. The nicests ones get a C+ and the worst get an 'F' and there are many of those. When you see the funding the city has for Parks, is it obviously cause and effect.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on April 30, 2010, 04:23:23 PM
Another city that's clearly screwing everything up! I don't see parking meters everywhere, and they're making their downtown 2-way streets? Sheeeesh...someone needs to write them and let them know what horrible mistakes they're making!
guess you missed this part of the quote in the story...
"Parking in downtown Mobile is convenient and generally affordable. On-street parking is available for many of downtown’s businesses and attractions. On certain streets, parking is free, with a two hour limit. The remaining metered parking is $1.00/hour"btw...Jax. is also converting some 1-way streets to 2-way...Bay Street was first, then Independent, and now Laura.
ok true....but also note that some streets, where there is a demand for parking, are $1.00 per hour....I have no problem with having 2-hour no meter parking in certain areas (just like it is right now in parts of the Cathedral district in downtown Jax.)....but other areas will likely still reuire some type of fee.
Quoteok true....but also note that some streets, where there is a demand for parking, are $1.00 per hour....I have no problem with having 2-hour no meter parking in certain areas (just like it is right now in parts of the Cathedral district in downtown Jax.)....but other areas will likely still reuire some type of fee.
Why the hell would ANY area REQUIRE "some type of (parking) fee?" Rejecting hourly PARKING FEE'S would grow downtown business and industry opportunities, while meters only discourage it. Nobody can convince me of a need for meter's, smart meters, genius meters, etc. when the parking division LOSES MONEY! Make those same spaces free with hourly, two hour, enforcement and we'd still receive the fine revenue - WITHOUT the capital costs of meters and their maintenance.
Does a $25.00 fine for overstaying a meter deter you from staying long in a meeting any more then a $25.00 fine for overstaying a two hour free zone? These people are not thinking...
OCKLAWAHA
There is no requirement for a fee, there IS a requirement for reasonable time limits. Witness San Marco and Five Points for example. To get even more basic, the only real requirement is that prime on-street parking not be taken by all-day users (workers), so that spaces are still available for short term users (shoppers).
Greenville has NO METERS period. Several garages are free in the evenings and weekends as well. Most spots are 2 hours, but several are for 15,30 and 60 minutes. There appears to be logic behind the spots that get less than 2 hours. For example, a number of the spots near banks are 15 and 30 minutes. There are no meters, but you will get a ticket is you exceed the posted limit for your space. It's all controlled by hand-held devices that the 'meter patrol' uses. They complete their route punching in every tag number they see. Once the same tag has been keyed a second time, it will check the total duration since the first time. The device will print a ticket once a tag number has exceeded the posted limit. Because of the manual process involved, the 'offender' will gets a few gratis minutes nearly 100 % of the time.
M-F during business hours is actually the easiest time to find a spot. The evenings and weekends are more difficult as the DT is a popular restaurant/entertainment destination during those times, and the time restrictions are NOT enforced at all after 5 or on weekends.
Quote from: tufsu1 on April 30, 2010, 09:10:15 PM
ok true....but also note that some streets, where there is a demand for parking, are $1.00 per hour....I have no problem with having 2-hour no meter parking in certain areas (just like it is right now in parts of the Cathedral district in downtown Jax.)....but other areas will likely still reuire some type of fee.
The Mobile meter situation looked very similar to the meter situations in Cleveland, Savannah and Raleigh. It appeared that at one point, all streets had meters. However, in an effort to make it easier on the retailers/restaurants operating within downtown, in recent years meters had been removed in areas where on-street parking was needed and in demand the most. My guess is that more meters will be taken down in the future, considering the streets with free on-street parking tend to be more vibrant than those with metered parking. Perhaps, someone with a little history of Mobile can come and confirm?
Mobile seems to love spires; I guess they love long pointed things in that city...if you know what I mean. Anyhoo, for such a small city they have a couple of great looking towers. The way they now look would be the same for Jax if we suddenly constructed a 1,200 foot tower; downtown would really look off kilter.
"HU"
Great tour Lake.
Is it just me or is more and more of our membership slowly turning into cynics? For some reason I feel like the responses to these tours are becomming nothing more than "that city is better than Jax" bash fests.
Come on guys! We're all here for a reason and regardless of what other cities are doing Jax still has MANY MANY MANY more benefits/pluses than negatives.
Quote from: vicupstate on May 01, 2010, 12:12:21 AM
There is no requirement for a fee, there IS a requirement for reasonable time limits. Witness San Marco and Five Points for example. To get even more basic, the only real requirement is that prime on-street parking not be taken by all-day users (workers), so that spaces are still available for short term users (shoppers).
thanks Vic...this is what I've been trying to say for months, but haven't done a good job of explaining it.
btw, I was in Greenville last year...saw a parking enforcement officer on a modern golf-cart-looking thing write 2 tickets near the downtown Jimmy Johns.
Jason is right. We need to get back to the "learning from" part of this series. So here are a few things I noticed after reading the article.
1. Mobile has embraced a preservation attitude when it comes to historic structures and it shows. I love the intricate design on so many porches and awnings. It reminds me of places like the Row House in Riverside, the Carling downtown and a few other historic buildings around the core. One of our problems in Jacksonville is that our historic structures are so scattered, due to lots of demolition, that it is hard to think of a truly historic area. Adams street and Laura street might be the best options within the core.
2. Generally speaking, I would say a lot of the architecture in Mobile is different and unique. Yes they love their spires, but even their new construction has a twist to it that sets their buildings apart. Compare their new RSA tower to the Fidelity complex.
3. Their inner city parks have a lot of green grass and traditional trees, not palms. Where in downtown Jax can you find a nice shady tree surrounded by grass to have a picnic or read a book? The small fountain in their square is beautiful and adds a nice touch to a public space.
4. Imagine a convention center with those huge windows like Mobile's looking out onto our St. Johns? We need to better embrace the natural beauty of the St. Johns when we build a new convention center and when we approve development of the Shipyards site.
5. I noticed a lot of unique signage for businesses. We've discussed this before on another thread. Chamblin's uptown should be used as the model for creating an aesthetic and vibrant retail district. They have sidewalk seating, an awning and fun signage. Imagine all of Laura street filled with creative shops and restaurants.
6. I like the idea of a parking card or some sort of pass to make parking easier whether it is in a garage or on the street.
I don't think I'm ready to jump in the car and move to Mobile, but it does look like a great place to spend a weekend.
Quote from: brainstormer on May 01, 2010, 10:32:53 AM
3. Their inner city parks have a lot of green grass and traditional trees, not palms. Where in downtown Jax can you find a nice shady tree surrounded by grass to have a picnic or read a book? The small fountain in their square is beautiful and adds a nice touch to a public space.
Treeaty Oak Park on the southbank...and whether people like it or not, the Main St pocket park will soon qualify...they planted oak trees that after about 5 years should provide plenty of shade.
The major difference between those parks in DT Mobile and the two DT Jax examples are the Jax parks are isolated. By isolated, I mean they don't integrate at all with the surrounding urban environment. On the other hand, the Mobile examples are surrounded by pedestrian oriented uses ( dining, retail, theaters, etc.) that open up into them. For proper park planning, it would do us good to implement the "Power of 10" concept.
A few words...
Clean, green, parks, pedestrian friendly, historic preservation, street friendly frontage. From a town 1/3 our size.
Not bashing Jax, just totally frustrated and disappointed with our leadership over the last 50 years when it comes to planning our community's development .... and asking as we all do: why? why? why? can't we get our act together like everyone else. We have the weather, the river, the history, the economy, the resources ... yet, we can't get off the launching pad. Again, it's not money (we have spent plenty of that!) so much as vision, master planning, doing what's right ... not what makes the GOB's happy.
Yes, I agree its not a bash,just the truth!! Nice photo tour, love the green clean parks,
As I have said in the past...........No plan, no vision and at the rate we are going .....no money! Fellow posters we really have no one to blame but ourselves, I mean, we voted in the buffoons. We have accepted mediocrity and being guided by the "Nifty Fifty" as they have made those back room deals and lined their pockets and we put up with it!! I will say it one more time.............time to clean house and start over with persons who give a darn about this City and all of the diverse elements it is made of!
Voted in who,you mean they won the vote.
Quote from: I-10east on April 30, 2010, 06:57:14 PM
BAM! In your face to alotta other cities too, like Birmingham, New Orleans, Tampa, Orlando, Nashville, Cincinnati, Baltimore, and on, and on, and on.
Mobile is also home of the original U.S.Mardi Gras; They started theirs fifteen years before N.O.'s according to wiki.
I can see alotta cities being envious of Mobile.
True, but I don't live in any of those cities. If there's one thing Jacksonville could always count on for a confidence booster, it was cities in Alabama. Now they throw this at us? We've gotta catch up!
This is a city where the bus routes stop running at 6 PM, and there are only about a dozen of them. http://www.thewavetransit.com/RidingTheWave/buses.htm
As far as I am concerned, such a place makes Jax look pretty good by comparison!
Because of buses,,thats a reach. I'll take clean, kept parks since I have my own transportation. Its not about which city is better.
Yes, this series was never about making Jax look bad or about which city is better than the other. Instead, they give Jax residents a chance to see how other cities have addressed many of the same issues we face locally. So one could probably find good and bad examples in every community about what or what not to do locally.
I missed this article the first time around. I've got "Mobile envy" now - think I'll add it to my list of summer vacation destinations!
Jacksonville does need to spend more on park maintenance, and could learn a lot about using its historic resources from Mobile - check out those great museums in Mobile!