Commuting from Clay to other parts of the city usually takes over 45 minutes of traffic and other problems along the way.
Two options to improve this has came up many times. First is the $1.8 Billion Outer Beltway, second is the idea of an Light Rail Commuter from Clay to Downtown Jacksonville, were you can transfer so you can travel to other parts of the city. Some say that Jacksonville isn't dense enough for mass transit like that. However it has been proven that when they are created, the areas around them tend to dense up.
Would you rather have an beltway or an Light Rail Commuter?
I'll take commuter rail. Its significantly cheaper and does not take a toll on the sustainability of the surrounding environment.
I would take commuter rail, however, it would take me just as long as it would to drive.
If downtown were the hub, and the parts of town the spokes, it would work for all but Clay County (or those in St Johns who work in Orange Park, if any......)
Sure, those that work downtown would benefit as greatly as other parts of the area.
However, those of us who live in Clay and work on the southside would have to go downtown first, then back to the southside, making the traveling time the same as a car drive. The hub and spoke setup would work for everyone else though.
If you add a couple of direct spurs though, you could cover more area and get more ridership.
Not only does it have to be cheaper than a car drive, but the time taken needs to be as good or better. If you factor in the drive time to get to a station, and then parking and waiting for a train as well as the commute, then the wait for the connector and back out, it would take longer in some cases. These are the people that will be least likely to ride commuter rail.
Like people have said before, our biggest asset (The St. Johns River) is also a huge barrier for us. Creation of another bridge across the St Johns might be one of the best investments.
If they were to build a commuter line across the St Johns then that might solve the problem of going around around your back to get to your elbow.
However, a highway bridge would be a better investment, a highway bridge and with a commuter down the middle would be the best. Never is going to happen though.
**** Bumper Sticker ****
AS A MATTER OF FACT I DO OWN THE ROAD
Beltway promoters have been careful to highlight "development" and "economic" aspects rather than traffic alleviation and actual benefits to current citizens,and for good reason.
The traffic alleviation image is firmly established,and erroneous,becomming firmly entrenched during the decades long promotion of the Brannon/Chaffee segment as viable alleviation for the Blanding Corridor which was compromised by the same development pressures,philosophy and indeed inviduals that have proven key drivers behind the beltway.
Those truly astute on these matters have either moved away or opted out in the first place.
by the way-there is significant Rail design within the Brannon/Chaffee Sector Plan concept- a key "selling" feature of the B/C Sector Plan.
Commuter rail would not take everyone where they need to go. However it would shape how things develop so as time goes by more and more of peoples destinations would be started or moved to take advantage of the rail line.
Quote from: JeffreyS on April 07, 2010, 04:07:10 PM
Commuter rail would not take everyone where they need to go. However it would shape how things develop so as time goes by more and more of peoples destinations would be started or moved to take advantage of the rail line.
Thats why we need an commuter rail, at first it might not be of use. However I think in the long run, it will greatly help the Jacksonville Metro Area. It would probably even promote office and residential development in Downtown Jacksonville. Also it might actually put to use the Skyway.
Thats why we need an commuter rail, at first it might not be of use. However I think in the long run, it will greatly help the Jacksonville Metro Area. It would probably even promote office and residential development in Downtown Jacksonville. Also it might actually put to use the Skyway.
[/quote]
Clay & St.Johns have been working overtime to provide an "alternative" to Duval county employment centers.
The respectuive county comprehensive plans depict the future trends.
The outer beltway will just develop Clay county even more. We need to stop building out, but up.
Three different threads on the Outer beltway. I guess this has folks all riled up. Maybe we should all just go and buy realestate in Clay and get happy about this instead.
Quote from: St. Auggie on April 07, 2010, 05:11:25 PM
Three different threads on the Outer beltway. I guess this has folks all riled up. Maybe we should all just go and buy realestate in Clay and get happy about this instead.
Depending on just how rabid they are about building that stupid road, you might be on to something. Then we can join in the "sprawlabration".
"Light rail commuter" is an oxymoron. Light rail and commuter rail are two very different things. Light rail runs more often, more slowly, and has more stops. Commuter rail tends to have fewer stops farther apart. Even in very transit-friendly cities, commuter rail often runs only once an hour or so, while light rail runs every few minutes. Thus, light rail is much more likely to affect development than commuter rail.
Here's a more detailed, technical explanation:
http://www.trainweb.org/kenrail/Rail_mode_defined.html
Yes commuter rail would be the appropriate title for clay.
From the 9B thread I posted this:
QuoteThe question I have is when are the residents, businesses, and political leaders of DUVAL County that support 9B and the Outer Beltway going to realize:
(1) these highways mostly benefit and promote residents moving to St. Johns and Clay Counties
(2) cost Duval taxpayers in additional infrastructure and traffic burdens within Duval
(3) fail to deliver significant offsetting revenues to Duval to pay for such burdens as most of these road users live and shop in the adjacent counties
(4) negatively impact business and residents in Duval County by siphoning off higher income residents and new businesses to the adjacent counties
(5) divert state monies from Duval mass transit projects, road improvements, and other state funded programs such as education.
There is absolutely no SANE and RATIONAL reason for Duval County politicos, if they truly represent Duval residents, to support these projects and yet they are all lined up to do so. Could it be due to campaign contributions? Back room deals?
Quote from: north miami on April 07, 2010, 03:55:21 PM
Beltway promoters have been careful to highlight "development" and "economic" aspects rather than traffic alleviation and actual benefits to current citizens,and for good reason.
The traffic alleviation image is firmly established,and erroneous
Actually, taken alone the Outer Beltway
WILL alleviate some traffic congestion on roads like Blanding Blvd.
But the long-term cumulative impact of building the road would likely be more development, which would offset any congestion savings.
Quote from: tufsu1 on April 07, 2010, 08:57:44 PM
Quote from: north miami on April 07, 2010, 03:55:21 PM
Beltway promoters have been careful to highlight "development" and "economic" aspects rather than traffic alleviation and actual benefits to current citizens,and for good reason.
The traffic alleviation image is firmly established,and erroneous
Actually, taken alone the Outer Beltway WILL alleviate some traffic congestion on roads like Blanding Blvd.
But the long-term cumulative impact of building the road would likely be more development, which would offset any congestion savings.
Thats why I would love to see ROW for light/commuter rail with it.
It can help alleviate some traffic issues, and then allow the rail to be built out.
true...but lots of roads planned for that (JTB for one)...then the land gets used for future road widening!
Yeah, I remember hearing some of the grandiose plans to run the Skyway leg down JTB to a station at PVB.
Quote from: jandar on April 08, 2010, 09:31:32 AM
Yeah, I remember hearing some of the grandiose plans to run the Skyway leg down JTB to a station at PVB.
That would actually give it more use, because Currently its a Skyway to nowhere. If it was expanded, light rail or a commuter rail added so it would connect to the Skyway (via Transfer) our mass transit infrastructure would be so much better.
Scott has really put his foot down when it comes to any mass transit improvements to the area. Don't foresee any of that happening while he is around.
actually folks in Clay County are quite interested in expanding the public transportation options in their county.
They need to be. Even with a new toll road, their mobility options are still pretty limited, given the population.
yeah...and now the local Clay Tea Party is complaining....they want no taxes but also don't like tolls either....what do they like?
btw, I do somewhat agree with her assertion that folks will just use 295...but yet she still wants the road...so how would she propose to fund/build the road?
QuoteSandy Scarborough with the Clay County chapter of the First Coast Tea Party said the voters thought they got rid of tolls in the '80s and will not be happy about a return.
"I don't understand why during an economic downtown they'd want to bring tolls back," Scarborough said. "Most people will just use Interstate 295 because it's a free road."
She supports the idea of building the beltway but wants lawmakers to find a way other than tolls to get it done.
Read more at Jacksonville.com: http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2011-08-16/story/toll-road-may-be-coming-first-coast?cid=hp-afterlede#ixzz1VHsuAkwK
I spoke to Doug Conkey one of the Clay County commissioners and Clay County really wants this toll road built. They feel it will funnel jobs to Cecil Commerce center since Orange Park and Middleburg residents will now have a direct chute, so to speak, from Blanding to Cecil with no traffic lights. He seems to feel it will open up more accessible jobs for Clay county rather than having everyone drive into Duval every morning clogging the roads up. Now this may be true, but I feel that the Duval jobs will still be there, and then jobs may come to Cecil, but instead of traffic being clogged one way, then it will be clogged two ways.
What I would love for them to announce today is that a Trolley Station will be built near the Walmart and new Hopsital, and a Trolley line laid in the median all the way to Cecil with a stop at Oakleaf with a lot there and a stop at 103 with a lot there. Wouldn't that be something??lol TO me, that would accomplish the same thing that Conkey was talking about.
Good idea Dapperdan, that is what should be done. Will it? probably not.
I guess, I'm not seeing how Orange Park residents are benefitting from this. One would have to drive all the way to Middleburg to access it and shell out an extra $3 bucks. Even with congestion, most would save time driving north on Blanding to I-295, Argyle or Collins. The only way to provide better access for Orange Park residents would be create a network of east/west roads to connect to Oakleaf but that will require extra hundreds of millions that have not been mentioned as of yet.
I do agree that it will help attract new sprawl development to Clay. However, I don't think it improves Cecil. We've already funded our connectivity there. Expressway or not, it will be years before what we've paid for gets to a level of congestion calling for an upgrade to limited access status. Nevertheless, I'm cool with the tolls and I hope they are pretty expensive.
My father in law will drive from Doctors Lake drive and head to Branan Field if he is going west on I-10. It allows him to miss the 295/Blanding nightmare. Same path if he visits his brother off of Normandy Blvd. And time wise, it shaves 5-10 mins easily with traffic and lights.
Quote from: tufsu1 on August 17, 2011, 08:03:25 AM
yeah...and now the local Clay Tea Party is complaining....they want no taxes but also don't like tolls either....what do they like?
They like Wal-Mart, the Texas Roadhouse and the singing group Alabama.
^I don't understand that. If they don't want tolls and they don't want government spending, why don't they come out against the Outer Beltway?
Quote from: jandar on August 17, 2011, 10:13:13 AM
My father in law will drive from Doctors Lake drive and head to Branan Field if he is going west on I-10. It allows him to miss the 295/Blanding nightmare. Same path if he visits his brother off of Normandy Blvd. And time wise, it shaves 5-10 mins easily with traffic and lights.
Why can't he continue this without an additional $300 million public expenditure to save an extra 10 minutes or so on his commute? At least in the scenario of a toll road, the actual user eats more of the costs than the average taxpayer. I'm all for tolling.
Quote from: Tacachale on August 17, 2011, 10:30:06 AM
^I don't understand that. If they don't want tolls and they don't want government spending, why don't they come out against the Outer Beltway?
For some reason people don't mind government meddling and government caring for everything as long as they are the direct beneficiary.
Quote from: thelakelander on August 17, 2011, 10:41:02 AM
Quote from: jandar on August 17, 2011, 10:13:13 AM
My father in law will drive from Doctors Lake drive and head to Branan Field if he is going west on I-10. It allows him to miss the 295/Blanding nightmare. Same path if he visits his brother off of Normandy Blvd. And time wise, it shaves 5-10 mins easily with traffic and lights.
Why can't he continue this without an additional $300 million public expenditure to save an extra 10 minutes or so on his commute? At least in the scenario of a toll road, the actual user eats more of the costs than the average taxpayer. I'm all for tolling.
It should be tolled, most of us that live out here understand that. Burden the drivers who use the road. however, witht the new St Vincents Hospital being built, Ambulances should be exempt.
rescue, fire, police do not have to pay tolls.
Thats what I figured, since the St Vincents center being built will service Clay and part of the westside including Argyle.
There will be frontage roads as well between Oakleaf and Blanding, from my understanding. So it would seem that some toll booths could be avoided by everyday commuters looking to keep a buck or two each way, in their pocket.
Quote from: thelakelander on August 17, 2011, 11:32:11 AM
There will be frontage roads as well between Oakleaf and Blanding, from my understanding. So it would seem that some toll booths could be avoided by everyday commuters looking to keep a buck or two each way, in their pocket.
...which then defeats and/or undermines the whole purpose of the toll roads, no?
Quote from: Tacachale on August 17, 2011, 10:30:06 AM
^I don't understand that. If they don't want tolls and they don't want government spending, why don't they come out against the Outer Beltway?
They are probably involved in the construction industry just like the Jacksonville Tea Party frauds. They don't want government spending unless it's lining their pockets.
Quote from: Doctor_K on August 17, 2011, 11:33:29 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on August 17, 2011, 11:32:11 AM
There will be frontage roads as well between Oakleaf and Blanding, from my understanding. So it would seem that some toll booths could be avoided by everyday commuters looking to keep a buck or two each way, in their pocket.
...which then defeats and/or undermines the whole purpose of the toll roads, no?
The frontage roads are for the existing residents along Branan Field Rd who otherwise wouldn't be able to leave their driveway as the toll road would cut them off.
One could take the toll road from blanding to argyle, or take the frontage road from blanding to oakleaf, around oakleaf plantation and back onto Argyle.
Florida DOT: $2.25 to drive from Interstate 10 to Blanding Boulevard
http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2011-08-17/story/florida-dot-225-drive-interstate-10-blanding-boulevard#comment-456805
And the good news is............... you now have to pay a toll!
I'm still a little curious how this thing is going to work
For a "major" announcement, there is very little detail.
Very little detail, when is it starting, are they following the original plan for development and overpass building before they start the tolls?
Agree with the above comments.
All the overpasses are why it costs so much. They have to build one over Oakleaf Plantation, 103rd, and Normandy.
The building of this highway never made any sense and now the whole thing sounds like a joke... just waiting for the punchline. Sorry, but I don't think one will come. So no exits/ just some kind of toll sensor??? that will detect the mile points and charge people/ what through the mail? WTF
I am so confused. Is this a joke? Who the F is in charge of this?
Press Release
Lt. Governor Jennifer Carroll announced today at a press conference in Oakleaf that construction on the First Coast Outer Beltway will begin in the fall of 2012. The estimated $291 million project will be funded by Florida's Turnpike Enterprise. The project will be constructed in two segments: the north extends from 10 south to Argyle Forest Blvd. and the south segment links Blanding Blvd. and Argyle Forest Blvd. For more information, please visit www.fdotfirstcoastouterbeltway.com or call 800-749-2967 x 7707.
So to build 15 miles of the FCOB which includes building 5 interchanges and widening about 7 miles of that road (and building frontage lanes) will only cost $291MM? That seems low considering this accounts for 1/3 of the entire FCOB that is expected to cost $1.8 billion. The math just seems fuzzy to me. I have a feeling in the end it will be much higher than $291MM.
yeah...and I'm betting the # doesn't include the money already spent or planned to be spent on ROW
Quote from: thelakelander on August 17, 2011, 10:01:28 AM
The only way to provide better access for Orange Park residents would be create a network of east/west roads to connect to Oakleaf but that will require extra hundreds of millions that have not been mentioned as of yet.
East/West route aspirations have been part and parcel of the Booster package.A matter of public record.Note Kingsley Avenue Extension,et al.(Which somewhere on MJ I covered fairly well,including historical attempts at Blanding Blvd. parallel,wetland belts,Kingsley Ave speculative moves....Not that any of this seems to matter)
In a nutshell,the broad wetland belts orient generally North/South,an effective blockade.
As always,the assumption (with Maps to show off!!) that the Booster Road network will be built.
Don't worry,Clay County will soon no longer affect you like this...cars Jammin'.Scammin'.We'll soon Pave Your Way!
Sign here,move to Clay!
The dollars,and regulatory ('hurdles') simply astronomical even for Wild Eyes Shut.
Rick Scott era Clay county like a raving child with a razor blade.We get the government-and landscape-we deserve.
By the way-"We'll Pave Your Way" was in fact an 80's era Clay Chamber promo.
Even Crow,when packaged as exotic Clay Chamber Game Bird,is edible.Eat up!
(http://homepage1.nifty.com/arashi/fururail/jpg/60kgrail.png)
Needless to say a streetcar using 60 pound steel would be far cheaper then a HEAVY commuter rail line using 132 pound rail. Just for reference rail generally runs from 12 pounds to 156 pounds, with 12, 20, 30, 40, 50, mostly used in mines and light internal factory tram lines where full size rail cars are off limits. There is hardly any 60, 70 pound rail left in common carrier use, but 80, 85, 90+ can still be found depending on the tonnage the line is expected to handle. Rule of thumb is NOT to build the infrastructure too rigid, so overbuilding won't insure a quality ride. OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: cline on August 17, 2011, 04:44:04 PM
So to build 15 miles of the FCOB which includes building 5 interchanges and widening about 7 miles of that road (and building frontage lanes) will only cost $291MM? That seems low considering this accounts for 1/3 of the entire FCOB that is expected to cost $1.8 billion. The math just seems fuzzy to me. I have a feeling in the end it will be much higher than $291MM.
Most of the Route all the way up to Oakleaf Plantion Parkway is already 4 lanes an they have purchased the ROW. What has never made sense to me is how we are being double charged for this whole thing. The road is already built, yet we are paying tolls to pay for the road. Makes sense, huh? We are paying for overpasses. Big, ugly overpasses.
A lot of the cost of the route over to I-95 involves a rather long river crossing, plus all of the land they will need from Middleburg to I-95.
Quote from: Dapperdan on August 17, 2011, 08:02:55 PM
The road is already built, yet we are paying tolls to pay for the road. Makes sense, huh?
there will actually be a frontage road paralleling the corridor through much of Clay County....and at the the northern end, the road deviates off Chafee (which will remain free)....and at the south it will deviate off Branan Field (which will also remain free).
that's how they can make the claim that they aren't tolling existing routes.
What about the section between Argyle Forest and 103rd Street?
Quote from: jandar on August 17, 2011, 12:01:43 PM
Quote from: Doctor_K on August 17, 2011, 11:33:29 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on August 17, 2011, 11:32:11 AM
There will be frontage roads as well between Oakleaf and Blanding, from my understanding. So it would seem that some toll booths could be avoided by everyday commuters looking to keep a buck or two each way, in their pocket.
...which then defeats and/or undermines the whole purpose of the toll roads, no?
The frontage roads are for the existing residents along Branan Field Rd who otherwise wouldn't be able to leave their driveway as the toll road would cut them off.
One could take the toll road from blanding to argyle, or take the frontage road from blanding to oakleaf, around oakleaf plantation and back onto Argyle.
and herein lies a problem. With the added traffic (supposedly) along the beltway, developers will add more communities along the corridor which, in turn, will force someone to increase the capacity of the frontage roads to handle the 'extra' cars that would be 'forced' to use the toll way. Why do you think Orlando has so many frontage roads that you can cut through, avoid a toll and not add a noticable amount of time to your commute? A better question would be why can't we ever seem to learn from the past - even though it's well within a 20 year past?
^Good point. I grew up in Central Florida and in every city, there are a number of local side streets you can take to avoid paying tolls and not add much time or mileage to your trips.
Quote from: thelakelander on August 17, 2011, 09:02:29 PM
What about the section between Argyle Forest and 103rd Street?
that's a good question....the original plan was to build a 2 lane expressway there even if the private builder couldn't be found...not sure what they plan to do now
Q. "What if JTB had never been built. ..." (JTA ad campaign)
A. St Johns Town Center would be located in LaVilla/Brooklyn.
OCKLAWAHA
^Good one.
(http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w126/warbirdmech/Curtiss_SNC-1s_NAS_Jax_Dec_1941-1.jpg)
Quote from: Charles Hunter on August 17, 2011, 08:18:42 PM
A lot of the cost of the route over to I-95 involves a rather long river crossing, plus all of the land they will need from Middleburg to I-95.
...And let's not forget the insane plan to encircle and effectively distroy the only logical location for a future commercial airport in Clay County, LEE FIELD.
Using the ALREADY 4 lane right-of-way of SR 16 through the old Naval Air Base at Green Cove Springs would allow for future runway extensions beyond the WWII standard 6,000' to a more conventional 8,000 which is within the range of some jet aircraft. More brilliant long range planning from Clay-FDOT? OCKLAWAHA
(http://thecityfix.com/files/2010/07/expo_line.jpg)
Split the hairs here, the "less traffic" only applies to those on the train, it does NOT refer to a physical condition on any roadway.
QuoteQuote from: Mattius92 on February 17, 2011, 02:29:09 PM
...With 180,000+ people and two main routes for those people to commute out of Clay into Duval, its just a hellhole...
I so say that subdivisions have killed Clay, grid networks are so much better, and personally I don't see why they are so unappealing.
I can only imagine what would happen to that traffic hellhole (great description for it, btw) if any kind of commuter rail actually started running up 17 from Kingsley or even Doctor's Inlet.
Perchance to dream...
I re-posted this here as a heads up/warning to every activist and concerned citizen for the following reason:
Put Light Rail down the middle of Blanding with an average speed of 40 mph (which is quite high) and it will do NOTHING for the traffic congestion. Put commuter rail over on the CSX from Green Cove Springs to Downtown Jacksonville with an average speed of 50 mph, and it too will do NOTHING to cure the traffic problems. We should all use caution in this because this theme, IE: "a cure for traffic" is a huge misnomer, a recurring fantasy often quoted by zealots which is certain to be taken up by the automobile lobby and thrown back at us as, "SEE! It didn't fix a thing!"
Bottom line here, mass transit should NEVER be sold as a fix for traffic, congestion, or even travel time. While transit can sometimes help in those areas it is not a cure, in fact there isn't one. What mass transit offers the world is an option, a clean, convenient, competitive, alternative choice that allows everyone within walking/connecting or park-and-ride range a daily opportunity to avoid the gridlock without the hassle. (http://blogs.du.edu/today/files/2010/08/Light-Rail.jpg)
Of course blowing past the fools on the super-slab can be a hoot!