For stuff like this US and NATO bombed Serbia for 78 days,invaded two countries and yet US military commits these crimes and none is responsible for it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HegX-_zET5Y
You actually got the title wrong should be US military kills 2 journalist and kids if you want a shock value.
I knew this video would make it to this board eventually.
I personally, would like to say how impressed I am with the video. Rather then carpet bombing the area, or launching Hell Fire missiles and leveling the area, they are able to with a mile or so out put a 30mm shell through a damn van window. Quiet frankly that is outstanding and shows how surgical our military is getting. With cut backs we will go back to "F-It just level the area with a less expensive ordnance"
What upsets me are those fat people never been put in a situation to make a call like this who will whine moan and scream, while they eat a donut who think that those put in a situation who in the heat of the moment have critical choices to make with little time to make them in should be hung.
To see people running around with anything dark and something indistinguishable slug on the back in a WAR ZONE is asking for trouble, and to have a cell phone and be Arabic does not help you in a WAR ZONE IN IRAQ when you are not with American or NATO forces. I would have made the same call and shot them, the van, and anyone else.
Pilots flying close airsupport have love of ground troops and watch over them as guardians and see themselves as such. In the heat of the moment you can not see the kids unless you are told THERE ARE KIDS and you actively look for them out of your way. In the pilots eyes you cant see it, and if you listen to the radio chatter alot of things happen at once.
By the ROE nothing is wrong they did what they had to and once technology advances to be able to get a better picture from a Mile away this might have been avoided. It is tragic none the less but it is war sometimes shit happens.
Use common since, in a hotzone.
Even tho they said that they found a RPG round under one of the bodys so maybe not so innocent eh?
Oh and Bosh if you are gonna post something post the full verson
40mins unedited.
although if any of you bleeding hearts would like to say they dont have a weapon watch at 31.00min you can make out the ak47 held on his right
http://www.youtube.com/v/is9sxRfU-ik
A shining moment for Sportmotor.
I hate people who take what our young troops are doing over there and twisting it to there agenda.
HATE IT >_>
I hope you don't mind, but I quoted and shared your post into another forum.
Although I am not in favor of the Iraq war, I agree with your post 100%.
I also believe you speak with the authority of one with experience in the matter. Most of us do not take your service lightly. Thanks for speaking up for our sons and daughters over there.
Never been to the sand box. Speaking for my brothers who are there are people on this bored far more deserving for your thanks, as I lean more toward the private security sector should I ever go overseas it would never be under the US military and the restrictions of the Geniva Convention.
Share away.
So you are officially turning into Nazi?
US military killing people,journalists and those who came to help them? and somehow you managed to approve this action.
You are officially Nazi.
US is in Iraq illegally killing people and running entire country illegally.
You Republicans have became so disillusion that you need to get help immediately.
Quote from: Bostech on April 06, 2010, 08:00:32 PM
So you are officially turning into Nazi?
US military killing people,journalists and those who came to help them? and somehow you managed to approve this action.
You are officially Nazi.
US is in Iraq illegally killing people and running entire country illegally.
You Republicans have became so disillusion that you need to get help immediately.
Just so you know, Bos; I am in strong opposition to this war.
When my son/father/sister/mother/granson/brother is sent to do battle in the name of protecting me, I will always give the benefit of the doubt to them regarding battlefield decisions.
I am saddened by the vision of people dying, and the thought of having wrongly determined a camera to be a weapon will long be with the person who made the call.
Send my boy to war then bitch about a decision he made while in fear for his life? Won't happen here.
They were killing people who came to help.
They obviously wanted to kill those men,most likely they were targeting journalists (maybe they found something they shouldn't).
Those Iraqis heard helicopter and knew US troops were above them and didn't act or behave like enemies.You don't walk around casually while copter is above you.
How many crimes does it take for them to be held responsible?
lmao
Not at the video, but at the stupidity dripping from Bos, especially calling someone a republican and Nazi.
First off Bosh you can NOT hear a Apache from a mile away in Iraq. If you help people WITH WEAPONS IN IRAQ after you see stuff blowing up around them, because I know they heard the 30mm explosive rounds going off, and you come in to swoop up and carry them off you will be shot. Even a "cherry" Private will tell you to shoot them. That is within every NATO military ROE.
Quote from: stephendare on April 07, 2010, 12:04:20 AM
http://www.youtube.com/v/HegX-_zET5Y
Here is the video that bos posted.
There is no excuse for it.
And Sports. Looked at the 31:00 mark. nothing that makes killing these children ok.
The problem with being 20 something is that you are usually too young and ignorant of the world around you to effectively comment on exactly what 'agenda' they are seeing.
31:18 + you can make out an AK47
I forget at what prior point before hand but they speak of finding RPGs under a body, again I forget at what point in the video but AFTER the 31:18 they speak of the RPG round being a live round.
Any reporter with insurgence in a hot zone, be prepared you might be targeted from 1+mile out as an enemy.
What I posted Stephen was the FULL version of the video. watch every single second of it don't skim a bit.
The problem with you 40 something is that you think you know everything even when you have never been put in a situation anywhere near this or to this level.
You again typically miss the point the only reason you saw children in the video is because someone had to point it out to you. Should you have watched the video(THE FULL VIDEO NONE STOP) without that you can not tell HEY LOOK AT THAT, KIDS. Even so, children are used alot, and I have grueling pictures to tell the tale that children will have and are used as bombs/gunmen(men really?) and shields in Iraq constantly.
ROE was clear, they followed the rules, they even went out of their way a bit to make sure they were clear. I and any other person in that situation would have fired. Had you not known about the children before hand, when you saw the van pull up you would still be focused on the enemy's and the clearance to engage before they got out of the kill zone.
You dint look for children when you see people with weapons you look for the threat first. Your brother in arms comes before any worthless civy that is a brutal fact of life, especially in a country that the enemy dresses up as someone normal(for the region).
It is tragic, but it is war and the fact that the driver took the children to an area of an attack were insurgence were is sad beyond words for the children but was the parents putting them in harm's way not the American's who were in battle making sure that others can come home here safely.
You can hear Apache miles away as any other helicopter.They make loud noise that is obvious to anyone.Those people were aware of helicopter flying above yet they didn't run but casually walk around.
There were civilians,reporters,kids and people with guns.
AK-47 in war is not unusual to carry around especially in Iraq,people have weapons for protection and to divert others from attacking.Shooting someone just because they had AK-47 on them without knowing who or what they are doing is a careless.Nobody in crowd didnt display any signs of aggression.
If anything it is obvious there were civilians and kids in crowd and they choose to shoot and kill everyone including people who came to help.
These "tragic events" are monthly thing for US army since war started.
They invaded 2 countries by "mistake",torturing war prisoners was "mistake",killing innocent people EVERY month was mistake.
For any other military in world this would be crime,people would be punished and it would be on mass media...except US military which is getting away with committing crimes.
Like I said US and NATO bombed Serbia for 78 days for similar crimes yet US walks away and will keep committing crimes in future.
But you have to remember this is BAD for image of USA,maybe here in US media ignore this but all over world they are playing this and people are outraged.
What Soviet Union was yesterday USA is today.
Quote from: reednavy on April 06, 2010, 11:34:09 PM
lmao
Not at the video, but at the stupidity dripping from Bos, especially calling someone a republican and Nazi.
He is turning into Nazi.Well I suspected his young,which makes him clueless and aggressive but that is still not excuse for his denial,many right wing Americans are behaving that way.
There are 5 stages person can turn into a Nazi/Serb/Taliban or whatever other name you prefer to describe someone murderous .
Stage 1-You watch others around you commit crime and you don't react or do anything about it.
Stage 2-You get in denial and start justifying other people actions and crimes.
Stage 3-You get angry and start throwing brick in peoples windows,threaten violence,get aggressive
Stage 4-You become one of murderers by committing crime.
Stage 5-Once conflict/war is over you become Mr. Nice guy and pretend like nothing happened or you ever done any crimes.heck you might even consider yourself to be a HERO.
Just to weigh in on the ROE argument... It's my understanding that you aren't allowed to shoot any random person who you think might be carrying a weapon (even in a warzone). They have to pose some sort of threat or show hostility. You also aren't allowed to continue firing at someone who has already been significantly wounded. And you most definitely cannot shoot at someone who is attempting to assist the wounded. That last one could be considered a war crime.
My brother served 2 tours in Iraq before the surge and my best friend is in Iraq right now. My cousin is currently in Afghanistan. My point being that I know what it means to have loved ones in a warzone and want to come to their defense from people who are quick to point fingers. However what happened here is clearly wrong. Unfortunately things like this are pretty much inevitable when you go to war. Atrocities have been committed by all sides in all major conflicts of recent memory. War has a tendency to make otherwise decent people do pretty awful things which is what I see when I watch this video.
And Sportmotor, please keep in mind that the Geneva Conventions are designed to protect our troops not restrict them. Lots of people like to attack the Geneva Convention until the war crimes our being committed against our own people.
A reasonable assessment.^
Still, I offer the benefit of any doubt to our sons in harm's way. Does anyone (other than Bos) believe that this was an intentional, premeditated act of murder?
As I see it, they saw what they truly believed to be an RPG launcher aimed directly at them. From that point on, they were taking no chances that another person would pick it up and fire it at them.
I don't care who you voted for in 2000. WE sent our boys over there. Did Bush? Did Congress? Yes we did!
This will not go well for any hopes of a good relationship with the Iraqi people. It is time to bring my sons home.
Quote from: stephendare on April 07, 2010, 12:04:20 AM
http://www.youtube.com/v/HegX-_zET5Y
The problem with being 20 something is that you are usually too young and ignorant of the world around you to effectively comment on exactly what 'agenda' they are seeing.
Nice way to generalize a whole lotta people.
Watch out, you'll be called a Nazi for supporting our troops!
Sportmotors assessment is really pretty good. I find many a young person wise beyond their years when they have had their own ass on the line. Raindoggie, you are of course correct in stating the conventions, but the situation is rarely that clear when you have a couple of months of living in the sand, under fire for hours, crappy radio coms and people dressed as civilians driving Toyotas shooting at you. Of course people can carry a rifle, but that act is ill advised in an active fire fight location, no matter what your intentions. No American serviceman wants to hurt a non combatant and certainly doesn't want to hurt kids (they were not killed, by the way), but you have to protect yourself and the other American forces around you. Aircraft such as was depicted in the video are lifesavers on the battlefield. Countless Americans live today because of our tactical air power. Contrary to what some here like to state (without experience or merit) those that serve for us do not turn into "beasts". They fight for their friends and comrades in arms to the best of their ability. Trading bullets with others will never be a completely sterile, clean mistake free experience. It will always be something done to the best of the training and ability of those involved. Armchair soldiers don't realize that.
Like I said ,these kind of "mistakes" happen EVERY MONTH.
They are not mistakes but clear message by US army they will KILL ANYTHING THAT MOVES.
They have been killing like this in Afghanistan,Iraq,Serbia,Bosnia...you name it.
when they bombed Serbia they bombed Chinese embassy by "mistake",they bombed Serbian TV by "mistake" killing journalists,they bombed bridges and civilian trains by "mistake",they bombed civilian areas by "mistake",in Afghanistan they bombed weeding by "mistake",in Iraq they shot people on street by "mistake".
Its not a mistake,those are messages to people who is BOSS and they will kill even innocent if it is in their interest.
Criminal act,crime against humanity.
Did we also forget USA is INVADING force in Iraq?
Shouldn't be there in first place.Those Iraqis have right to walk around their country and even carry gun if they want.Its their business.
By the way those soldiers should kill half Texans,because they are walking around with guns.
Oh yeah,how about US army bombing "by mistake" Al-Jazeera offices in Kabul and Baghdad???
http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2001/nov/17/warinafghanistan2001.afghanistan
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2003/apr2003/jaz-a09.shtml
and then bombing Serbian TV
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_bombing_of_the_Radio_Television_of_Serbia_headquarters
then killing these journalists on video.
It was all "mistake".
For my inaugural post I will start by quoting Major General Smedley Butler.
QuoteWar Is A Racket
WAR is a racket. It always has been.
It is possibly the oldest, easily the most profitable, surely the most vicious. It is the only one
international in scope. It is the only one in which the profits are reckoned in dollars and the
losses in lives.
A racket is best described, I believe, as something that is not what it seems to the majority of
the people. Only a small "inside" group knows what it is about. It is conducted for the benefit
of the very few, at the expense of the very many. Out of war a few people make huge
fortunes.
If you cant accept these words as truth, if your memory is so short that you cant recall the stated justification for US involvement and then the actual reasons for US involvement in most conflicts than all hope is lost for you.
Someone above stated that 'no American soldier wants to kill non combatants.' Are you sure about that? Have you spoken to all service members? Has it been so long that you have forgotten the Haditha massacre, where 15 out of 24 KIA were civilians, including women and children. Just Google SSGT Frank Wuterich. Check out the Mahmudiyah killings where the family of 14 year old Abeer Qassim Hamza was murdered before she was gang raped by US Marines who then shot her to death and burned her body. These are just a few high profile incidents which have occurred in Iraq but there are many others that go unreported.
I mean hell, there are boatloads of soldiers who cant even control themselves enough to not force themselves on their fellow soldiers.
QuoteThere are more women serving in the military than ever before, and they're in dangerâ€"but not just from combat. Last year, nearly 1,400 women reported being assaulted and raped by their fellow soldiers, in some cases by their commanding officers. The shocking phenomenon is called military sexual trauma, or MST.
http://www.pbs.org/now/shows/421/video-seg1.html
Quote
As I see it, they saw what they truly believed to be an RPG launcher aimed directly at them. From that point on, they were taking no chances that another person would pick it up and fire it at them.
I think it's pretty clear from listening to the back-and-forth radio chatter that they did in fact believe they were under threat, but watching the video I honestly can't figure out how they came to such a conclusion. And it still doesn't explain why they attacked the people who had stopped to help the wounded photographer.
QuoteRaindoggie, you are of course correct in stating the conventions, but the situation is rarely that clear when you have a couple of months of living in the sand, under fire for hours, crappy radio coms and people dressed as civilians driving Toyotas shooting at you...
No American serviceman wants to hurt a non combatant and certainly doesn't want to hurt kids...
Contrary to what some here like to state (without experience or merit) those that serve for us do not turn into "beasts".
1) Absolutely you are right that the situation is rarely clear when trying to fight an insurgency. It's made even worse by the fact that these soldiers rarely get more than 3-4 hours of sleep per day and they've probably already witnessed some pretty harrowing crap. That's why I said that stuff like this is pretty much inevitable when you go to war which is why I believe we should avoid going to war unless absolutely necessary and try to avoid these sorts of prolonged occupations.
2) That's a nice thought but... I'll just refer you to JC above for a few examples. I'll concede that most American servicemen don't want to hurt civilians however there are some that do. The military can't weed out all the unhinged crazies in its ranks, especially when they're desperate for volunteers.
3) I'm not sure who said those who serve turn into beasts. I made the statement that war tends to make otherwise decent people do some pretty awful things and I stand by that statement. I'm not passing judgment, it's just an observation that the very nature of war requires soldiers to do things that would be considered reprehensible under any other context, sometimes just to survive. Which brings me back to my first point about avoiding war in the first place.
RainDoggie, sometimes war just comes to your door. Someone has to stand and fight when the fighting needs to be done. Someone has to do those "reprehensible" things. Otherwise, "reprehensible" things will be done to you. We have been some of the luckiest people in the world in that all of our wars for the past one hundred years have been fought "over there".
I am not condoning criminal acts. Those examples that were given resulted in criminal prosecution, as they should. When I said no American serviceman wants to kill noncombatants I was talking about guys like you heard in the video. I know it sounds bad to most people when they hear soldiers cheering after an enemy is killed, but that is the reality of it. In combat, it is us versus them. Me and you trying to kill the guy that is over there trying to kill us.
I think that you would find that most people who have put their own butts on the line in battle or on our own streets are the most peace loving of us all. Those that have had to do "the hard work" or "reprehensible acts" know how awful humans can be to each other. I have found that in general, they are the most gentle and involved among us. They also know what kind of world we live in, and know the wolf is ALWAYS at the door, waiting for the opening.
Post one more NotNow, you're so very close to 1,000!!!
Who are you fighting in Iraq???
Reason war doesn't come to your door is because US starts wars everywhere else except here.
Here in US government will quickly eliminate any militia or revolutionary movement while they support all sort of evil around world.
US literally gave Saddam Husein his power,without US he wouldn't last one week in power.
Quote from: NotNow on April 08, 2010, 01:12:02 PM
the wolf is ALWAYS at the door, waiting for the opening.
unless you have a doggy door ;D
:)