Metro Jacksonville

Governor Crist was in Clay County today at a Chamber luncheon....he was to talk about transportation in Florida....the luncheon was followed by a press conference (likely just ended) out at Oakleaf where he was to provide an update on the status of the Outer Beltway

Here's hoping the status is "indefinitely postponed"!

Crap!!

Crist says work on Outer Beltway will be expedited
Posted: March 25, 2010 - 3:12pm


By Larry Hannan

Gov. Charlie Crist said today that work on the First Coast Outer Beltway will be expedited and the state will begin taking bids for the $1.8 billion project next month.

Crist said it was too early to say whether or not the toll road that will link Interstates 10 and 95 through Duval, Clay and St. Johns counties will be built soon.

The state hopes a private contractor will build the road and recoup its investment through tolls.
Crist made the announcement in Jacksonville; he also spoke in Clay County today.

http://jacksonville.com/news/florida/2010-03-25/story/crist-says-work-outer-beltway-will-be-expedited

&@%$*&%#@*&%@(*&#^*@&^*&%#!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

public unrest seems to be getting attention on Obamacare--minus the brick-hurling--can we do the same thing on this beltway?

Quote from: kells904 on March 25, 2010, 04:09:48 PM
public unrest seems to be getting attention on Obamacare--minus the brick-hurling--can we do the same thing on this beltway?

not when this is being sold as a job creator!

Quote from: tufsu1 on March 25, 2010, 04:14:23 PM

Quote from: kells904 on March 25, 2010, 04:09:48 PM
public unrest seems to be getting attention on Obamacare--minus the brick-hurling--can we do the same thing on this beltway?

not when this is being sold as a job creator!

....Eff.

The outer beltway - stupid as it is - doesn't bother me so much as long as a private company pays for it and charges tolls.

I think the most important battle would be to prevent Jax or FDOT from using public money to extend the beltway north from I-10 back around to I-95.

Looking for a silver lining to this dark cloud, hopefully the Outer Beltway will at least finally bring Sun Pass to Jax. As much as people flip out about tolls, they will probably be necessary for things like the Matthews Bridge (and eventually Hart Bridge) replacements, never mind the continuous widening of JTB.

Putting it out to bid doesn't bother me.  It will be interesting to see who, if any, responds and how much cash will they be willing to put up front.

there is a whole bunch of $ that would have to be spent up front...the shortlisted bidders will all have to develop preliminary design plans (usually 30%)...for a road of this magnitude, that could be in the $20 million range....plus there's all the investment grade toll studies that they'll do to make sure it works financially.

Quote from: thelakelander on March 25, 2010, 04:22:35 PM
Putting it out to bid doesn't bother me.  It will be interesting to see who, if any, responds and how much cash will they be willing to put up front.

I wondered if these hypothetical private companies would dictate the feasability of the plan?  I mean, if you've got business people behind the decision to build the road, then they're using common sense to determine whether or not they're gonna recoup their money.  Maybe they'll come to the conclusion that we're OD'ing on pavement in these parts, and not be so quick to build it because it isn't such a good idea.

I'd definitely trust their judgment over that of politicians and bureaucrats since their playing with their own or stockholders money.

I worried that ol' Charlie and the State will distort the economics of the bidding with well hidden taxpayer paid "incentives" and 'subsidies" starting with us paying for expanding roads and infrastructure to "interchange" with the Outer Beltway and spoon feed it "customers".  With Crist buying votes left and right (no pun intended  :D ), I am concerned about back door manipulations with taxpayer funds to insure we induce bidding on this project.

This is a blatant example of how and why our road network "sprawls".  Buying political votes with promises of flash-in-the-pan, non-sustainable jobs.  You would hink the current recession would have taught us you can't build a sustainable economy on "growth".

Could the voice of any citizen (or, even a "planner") at a public hearing be overheard above the Governor's and other politico's clamoring for this road?  I think not.  Again, this creates another opening for proponents of Amendment 4 because politically motivated land use changes will be next to come to support the new Outer Beltway.

Quote from: kells904 on March 25, 2010, 04:39:44 PM

Quote from: thelakelander on March 25, 2010, 04:22:35 PM
Putting it out to bid doesn't bother me.  It will be interesting to see who, if any, responds and how much cash will they be willing to put up front.

I wondered if these hypothetical private companies would dictate the feasability of the plan?  I mean, if you've got business people behind the decision to build the road, then they're using common sense to determine whether or not they're gonna recoup their money.  Maybe they'll come to the conclusion that we're OD'ing on pavement in these parts, and not be so quick to build it because it isn't such a good idea.

exactly

Here's the latest

http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2010-06-23/story/florida-looks-private-partner-build-first-coast-outer-beltway

Hopefully, this project is as financially questionable as it sounds (article posted below).  Interesting that the bidders may demand a guaranteed profit.  Only when dealing with government!  In the private sector, you take on risks to reap rewards.  Why should anyone be guaranteed a profit?  If they are, the State might as well build the project itself as it's not transferring risk if it guarantees a profit.  And, the State doesn't need financing help as no private company can borrow for less than the State.

If there is no urgency to build the project, why are we even talking about it when there is urgency related to so many other needs that seem to be lagging this project in support by these same State, agency and city players.  By example, I wonder if Ms. Carroll is as concerned about adequately funding education or mass transit as she is this road.

As the quotes in the article make clear, this project is tied to nothing more than growth (=urban sprawl), not quality of life.  Aren't we seeing presently what happens when the primary engine of our economy is nothing but growth?  Do we ever learn our lessons?

MJ should ask for interviews with Rep. Carroll and Ron Barton in which they are asked to address concerns posted here on MJ.  Until and unless they convince me otherwise, this project is just stupid and these politicos come across, likewise, for their unequivocal support of it.

Quote
Florida looks for private partner to build First Coast Outer Beltway
Source URL: http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2010-06-23/story/florida-looks-private-partner-build-first-coast-outer-beltway

By Larry Hannan

Jacksonville isn’t known as a gambling city.


And although the state is hoping a coalition of road contractors, engineering firms and equity partners will soon be coming to Northeast Florida to make a high-stakes bet, the cost may end up scaring people away, and that includes corporations with billions of dollars in capital.

Five companies, three with headquarters overseas, have met with the state to discuss building the 46-mile First Coast Outer Beltway, from Interstate 10 in Jacksonville to Interstate 95 in St. Johns County, for $1.8 billion. Each firm would be part of what the state calls a “concession group” and will, if selected, be expected to recoup its money and make a profit by charging tolls on the roadway.

“A concession group is taking a risk that there will be motorists on the road,” said Jim Knight,  project manager with FDOT. “If there’s an economic downturn, and people don’t drive on the road they are still responsible for maintaining the roadway.”

Investors who’ve examined the project admit to cost concerns.

“It’s an enormous amount of money to put down,” said Antonio Garrastazu,  director of business and government affairs for Globalvia Infrastructures, a company based in Madrid and Miami that has met with the state to discuss the project.

Garrastazu said his company is interested but might need some concessions, such as the state agreeing to reimburse the company if revenue projections are not met.

Knight said the state will not do that.

It will ask the concessionaire to make back its money by collecting tolls, largely because the state lacks revenue to bail out a private group. The state will set the toll rate, likely 15 to 20 cents a mile. And, Knight said, the winning coalition will not be allowed to raise the tolls if it encounters financial difficulty.

At 20 cents a mile, a car would pay $9.20 to travel the entire road. There would also be a $1 surcharge for cars  Â­â€" $2.50 for trucks â€" to cross a new Shands Bridge.

The state is betting, too, that a group exists that will want to do this. If no one steps forward it could be decades before the roadway gets built because Florida lacks the money to build the road itself.

University of North Florida economist Paul Mason  doesn’t see a fair gamble occurring. He expects the private partner to demand a rigged game.

“The state will have to guarantee the private company will make money,” Mason said. “I don’t think anyone will do this without that guarantee.”

State Rep. Jennifer Carroll,  R-Fleming Island, said the state may have to consider breaking up the project into sections and bidding them separately if no one takes on the whole project.

“I hope we get a bidder,” Carroll said. “But if we don’t we’ll have to get creative.”

The areas near I-10 and I-95 would get more traffic at first, so those areas could see tolls before a middle section is built later, she said, after revenue has been generated. But she admitted that she doesn’t know if that’s realistic.

The beltway would be the first toll road in Northeast Florida since 1989. It would incorporate the existing Cecil Commerce Parkway, and Branan Field and Baxley roads.

Ron Barton,  executive director of the Jacksonville Economic Development Commission, said the road is needed to complement Interstate 295 west of downtown Jacksonville.

“As our metro area grows, it will be important to have in place the second outer ring transportation system that will become the equivalent of I-395,” Barton said. “There is not a single metro area that has not grown significantly that did not put in place a series of road systems like the First Coast Outer Beltway.”

A study commissioned by the state suggests the road is a good long-term bet. It estimates that by 2030, with tolls costing 20 cents a mile, it would generate almost $200 million a year.

The private investors would also make their money back around 2030, assuming the roadway was open by 2015. The road would continue to generate around $200 million every year after that.

By 2025, the most highly traveled parts of the road, near the existing Shands Bridge, would have about 76,000 cars a day.

If those cars traveled the entire 46 mile stretch of roadway, it would generate just under $700,000 in revenue a day with a 20-cent toll.

But those estimates rely on an assumption of major growth and job creation in the Jacksonville area. It’s estimated there are just under 1.3 million people living in Duval, Clay and St. Johns counties right now with about 577,000 people employed. By 2030 the study assumes 1.8 million people will live in those three counties, with more than 800,000 people employed.

Knight said the state did not have a timetable yet for selecting a private partner. That means there is no timetable for getting the Outer Beltway built.

Barton said the project is important, but not urgent.

“Speed and timing of construction is less important,” he said. “than getting the funding right and structuring a credible construction delivery plan with a partner that will have staying power through a complex project.”

What amount of insane does it take to calculate how a road running from the St. Johns River at Green Cove Springs, Northwest to Cecil Field, is going to be the solve all for Clay traffic going into JACKSONVILLE? Better yet, how does one get from Orange Park to Town Center faster, by first driving to Green Cove Springs, then WGV? Did ANY of these dopes ever study geography.

These boys and girls are smoking crack! Imagine a job for Joe Lunchbucket here in Jacksonville in which Joe can plop down $18.40 a day or some $368.00 dollars a month for the privilege to drive on this stupid super-slab in lieu of Blanding, Old Middleburg, Lenox, Normandy, Lane, I-10 or I-295...  Not going to happen, not no way, not no how.

I can see it now:

"Dad! I got the job at the new BK at Beltway and I-95, next to the truck stop, can I have $19 dollars so I can drive to work?"

or

On the IRS statement for students the kid writes in his annual BK earnings...

INCOME: $3,693 dollars
TOLLS: $4,4,16 dollars

YEAH RIGHT! Better get somebody to build that road fast because Bessie The Heifer down at Gustafson's Dairy has a hot date over in St. Johns.


OCKLAWAHA

The outer beltway is important to Jacksonville Development. There is nothing out there now but preservation lands along the St. Marys River that needs strip development and low income housing. The river will make a dandy stormwater drain. Much of the land is owned by Coxwell (and other members of the "nifty fifty") and who just lost funding for the Southbank park improvements and needs more income. Most importantly we must drain off revitalization efforts in the downtown core since commerce there has become so overheated that there is no longer any open space for commercial enterprise, and all of the residential neighborhoods are fully redeveloped. There must be at least five or six persons a day who need to travel that route, so let's subsidize the private growth that will occur along the corridor with public tax dollars like we did for Tinseltown and River City Marketplace. It isn't as though there are enough vacant shopping centers or vacant strip centers closer to the center of the city.

Very well done Starbuck!

I stand corrected...

OCKLAWAHA

Nothing in the article is suprising.  Its not going to get built without the State giving up some major concessions.  Roads are worse than rail when subsidies are concerned.  Luckily, when people play with their own money they're more likely to make sound financial decisions.  Spending $1.8 billion to charge drivers $9.20 in hopes of banking on projected growth patterns (that won't be the same once the market comes back) equals bad business.

See this is the problem with JEDC, first of all why are the even commenting on the Outer Beltway? Focus on Downtown and leave the rest of the county to the Planning Department.

Quote from: fsujax on June 24, 2010, 08:15:27 AM
See this is the problem with JEDC, first of all why are the even commenting on the Outer Beltway? Focus on Downtown and leave the rest of the county to the Planning Department.

Well, JEDC is responsible for economic development all over Duval County, not just downtown....that said, Ron Barton's comments are odd at best....and plain wrong (I can think of many metro areas that don'e have 2 ring roads).

More metros are running fixed mass transit than those with two ring roads.

Whats funny is when I lived in Atlanta, the people up there squashed the second beltway that had been planned for years. I will never forget that. Showing up to a public meeting in Gwinnett County with hundreds of people there in opposition to the outer beltway.

Regarding the JEDC and the Outer Beltway for Jacksonville, I don't think the project will have significant positive impact on Jacksonville/Duval County economically.  The small stretch that runs through Jacksonville is already in place, giving Cecil great access to the rest of the country regardless of if the toll section is developed or not.  Once the toll section through Clay and St. Johns is constructed, it's still a huge risk to assume that shipping companies (the few shipping to destinations along Florida's East Coast south of Jax) will choose to use the longer toll road than the existing highway network.

Quote from: thelakelander on June 24, 2010, 09:39:46 AM
More metros are running fixed mass transit than those with two ring roads.

I think this is a very interesting statistic.  If we're trying to keep up with peer cities, why would we choose to do so in a way that other cities are no longer choosing?  Beltways are the past, rail is the present/future.  We're chasing a dis-proven idea.

So lets see,
They want to build the pink route, meaning that for me near Old Jennings/Branan Field, it seems like a no brainer right?

Wrong, the pink is the worst route. For me to drive from my house to SJTC using that corridor, would mean around 20 miles just to get to I95. At 20 cents a mile, plus 1$ to cross the new shands, that would mean around 5$ each way, then an additional 10+ miles to get from I95 to SJTC.

Or, I could drive the 28 mile commute I currently do, down blanding and over the Buckman, use the same gas, and save 10$ a day.

Yeah, the pink route is the most idiotic route, but no one listens to the normal person they expect to use this corridor. Instead, they listen to developers.

Regardless of love/hate for cars, there will be people who will drive. You cannot change stuff overnight. Its going to take decades to get rail to where it needs to be, even if it was focused on solely.

In the meantime, you cannot expect people to not live in clay and st johns and commute by car to work. The corridor from Clay to St Johns is those counties priority, Jax's corridor part is already done save for a few overpasses on 103rd and Normandy and Argyle.

Yes, the pink route is the worst, the purple was the one many of us fought for.

^You're right. However, I think people are starting to realize it may take a couple of decades to build this thing as well.  Primarily, because as you've stated, the route chosen doesn't make much sense for anyone except those looking to make some money off of it.

My fear is if some group pours a bunch of money into this they will fight commuter rail fearing people won't be paying their tolls.

    Inside Outside

I just couldn't subscribe to the big city view
that the metropolis is good for you
You can't resist,the city affects you like this:
Cars jammin',the scammin',heads hangin'
Outside!
Clay & St. Johns!...you are on my mind tonight!!
Outside!...get me out of this big city
Outside! I'm going inside Outside!
You've got to live like you know it-show it
Don't go with the flow,check your soul
Check the Bible,and Chamber "Quality of Life" pamphlet you know
Taking a chance,exploring eccentricities,checking possibilities
Outside! Almost in!
Get me out of this big fat city!
I leave the dark of Duval,for the light and promise of something pretty
I've been waiting for you
When the morning comes,the mourning comes
For what we saw and were sold,inside Outside
is not what we got
They have been waiting
We got the urge to think on the Outside,having discovered the possibilities
For us,"No Growth" becomes our eccentricity
Don't go with the flow,follow your bliss
To Know Growth will affect you like this
And check the county Comp Plan,you know
The Planners & Consultants just can't subscribe
to the view that 'no growth' is good for you
They don't know it-the landscape shows it
Clay & St.Johns have been waiting for you:
"You can't resist,don't raise your fist-we promise our next development will no longer affect you like this.....cars jammin',scammin...Hey,our heads ain't yet hangin'!!
You've taken a chance
You Know Growth inside out....new found clout
It is only planned harmonic boundaries that surrounds dotted lines, DRI and Sector Plan
Inside Outside
When you know the history,it's not hard to solve the mystery:
Even if you escape the big fat city
I say "Oh,what a pity!"
Because the way to relate
Inside Outside
Is to love what you hate
And there is no middle ground inside Outside

-N.Miami
Based in part on lyrics "Outside,Almost In" Planet Earth rec. and decades of experience

Quote from: north miami on June 24, 2010, 12:54:30 PM
   Inside Outside

I just couldn't subscribe to the big city view
that the metropolis is good for you
You can't resist,the city affects you like this:
Cars jammin',the scammin',heads hangin'
Outside!
Clay & St. Johns!...you are on my mind tonight!!
Outside!...get me out of this big city
Outside! I'm going inside Outside!
You've got to live like you know it-show it
Don't go with the flow,check your soul
Check the Bible,and Chamber "Quality of Life" pamphlet you know
Taking a chance,exploring eccentricities,checking possibilities
Outside! Almost in!
Get me out of this big fat city!
I leave the dark of Duval,for the light and promise of something pretty
I've been waiting for you
When the morning comes,the mourning comes
For what we saw and were sold,inside Outside
is not what we got
They have been waiting
Wanting a difference
We got the urge to think on the Outside,having discovered the possibilities
For us,"No Growth" becomes our eccentricity
Don't go with the flow,follow your bliss
To Know Growth will affect you like this
And check the county Comp Plan,you know
The Planners & Consultants just can't subscribe
to the view that 'no growth' is good for you
They don't know it-the landscape shows it
Clay & St.Johns have been waiting for you:
"You can't resist,don't raise your fist-we promise our next development will no longer affect you like this.....cars jammin',scammin...Hey,our heads ain't yet hangin'!!
You've taken a chance
You Know Growth inside out....new found clout
It is only planned harmonic boundaries that surrounds dotted lines, DRI and Sector Plan
Inside Outside
When you know the history,it's not hard to solve the mystery:
Even if you escape the big fat city
I say "Oh,what a pity!"
Because the way to relate
Inside Outside
Is to love what you hate
And there is no middle ground inside Outside

-N.Miami
Based in part on lyrics "Outside,Almost In" Planet Earth rec. and decades of experience

Quote from: JeffreyS on June 24, 2010, 10:50:02 AM
My fear is if some group pours a bunch of money into this they will fight commuter rail fearing people won't be paying their tolls.

...or not be asked to build all those feeder roads into the Outer Beltway's interchanges.  I mean FDOT and JTA, both of which are engineered to do that versus build commuter rail or any other mass transit with gusto and are just looking for excuses to maintain the status quo.

Quote from: stjr on June 24, 2010, 05:28:34 PM
...or not be asked to build all those feeder roads into the Outer Beltway's interchanges.  I mean FDOT and JTA, both of which are engineered to do that versus build commuter rail or any other mass transit with gusto and are just looking for excuses to maintain the status quo.

If FDOT only wanted to build roads, why would they fund studies and construction for things like TriRail, SunRail, AMTRAK/FEC, etc?

I'm sorry, I just can't work in aboslutes.

well part of their job is to respond to community requests, right?

I think I know FDOT well enough to know that there are plenty of folks (both in Tallahassee and in the district offices) that are very interested in rail.

Quote from: tufsu1 on June 24, 2010, 09:59:00 PM

Quote from: stjr on June 24, 2010, 05:28:34 PM
...or not be asked to build all those feeder roads into the Outer Beltway's interchanges.  I mean FDOT and JTA, both of which are engineered to do that versus build commuter rail or any other mass transit with gusto and are just looking for excuses to maintain the status quo.

If FDOT only wanted to build roads, why would they fund studies and construction for things like TriRail, SunRail, AMTRAK/FEC, etc?

I'm sorry, I just can't work in aboslutes.

Tufsu, where is the "absolute" term in my post?  I don't see words like "all", "none", or "only".  What are you referring to?

By the way, what good is a "study" if it doesn't lead to the necessary results?  Let's compare the results from road "studies" with those of mass transit "studies"?  Which, over the years, has FDOT spent most of its monies turning into reality?

In Northeast Florida, what proportion of FDOT's capital and operating budgets goes for mass transit versus roads?  Or, for that matter, statewide?  Maybe the only thing that is "absolute" is that I am "absolutely" on point!  ;D

Follow the money...

stjr...no matter how pro-transit we get in Florida, roads will still get more money...for one simple reason....even in transit-friendly regions like NYC and DC, the road systems serve way more people.

Quote from: tufsu1 on June 24, 2010, 10:22:25 PM
stjr...no matter how pro-transit we get in Florida, roads will still get more money...for one simple reason....even in transit-friendly regions like NYC and DC, the road systems serve way more people.

Maybe, Tufsu, but what should a reasonable ratio be?  Is it roads to mass transit of 95/5?  80/20? 60/40?  My suspicion is it is closer to 95/5 than 50/50 but why don't you tell us for sure?

I went to FDOT's web site where I found listings of hundreds of road projects UNDER CONSTRUCTION OR CLOSE TO IT.  Only thing about rail I could find was a vaguely written 73 page (could have been summed up in one page!) puff piece called "The 2009 Florida Rail System Plan: Policy Element" * that was full of nebulous TALK (BS?, Lip service?) about what would be desirable between now and 2025.  Not one clearly spoken specific detail about rail coming to a neighborhood near you.

Apparently, the FDOT produces these puff pieces on an ongoing basis.  They have ones for 2000, 2002, 2004, and 2006 posted as well.  Here is a section from Page 7, "Executive Summary", from the 2000 report:

Quote3. A Transportation System that
Enhances Florida's Economic
Competitiveness
· Implement a coordinated intermodal planning approach.
· Continue to identify port, airport, rail and transit
infrastructure needs.
· Work with transportation authorities to implement improved
regional transit and rail services.
· Progress the recently completed comprehensive analysis of
need and implementation opportunities for intercity
passenger rail service.
· Continue to implement the High Speed Rail program.
· Improve ground access routes to major intermodal facilities,
freight distribution centers and military installations.

4. A Transportation System that
Enhances the Quality of Life in
Florida
· Continue to support and improve the South Florida Rail
Corridor.
· Promote modal alternatives and connections.
· Design multi-purpose corridors that use medians for
intercity or regional rail lines, and have designated lanes for
specific uses.
· Work with MPOs and local governments to fund
transportation alternatives.

http://www.dot.state.fl.us/rail/Publications/Plans/2000/2000%20Florida%20Rail%20Plan.pdf

Notice the absence of the word "build" in these goals.  In the 10 years since this report, what new projects have materialized for Northeast Florida?  I say it looks like talk-talk-talk.

Like I said, roads over mass transit by a tidal wave.

* See: http://www.dot.state.fl.us/rail/PlanDevel/Documents/2009PolicyElementoftheRailSystemPlan-webfinal.pdf

By the way,  I did stumble on this project:  Bus Shelters paid by FDOT for Weston, FL.  So, why not us?

http://www2.dot.state.fl.us/fmsupportapps/workprogram/Support/WPItemRept.aspx?RF=WP&IT=425120&IS=1&RP=SCHD

Quote from: tufsu1 on June 24, 2010, 09:59:00 PM

Quote from: stjr on June 24, 2010, 05:28:34 PM
...or not be asked to build all those feeder roads into the Outer Beltway's interchanges.  I mean FDOT and JTA, both of which are engineered to do that versus build commuter rail or any other mass transit with gusto and are just looking for excuses to maintain the status quo.

If FDOT only wanted to build roads, why would they fund studies and construction for things like TriRail, SunRail, AMTRAK/FEC, etc?

I'm sorry, I just can't work in aboslutes.

While I'd agree that we have a "new crop" of recent converts to rail in various Florida offices, the balance of power is still such that rail gets "studied" while highways get "built". I'll concede that we're getting Sunrail, but remember they wanted it at the cost of Tri-Rail! Meanwhile the HSR route is a money grab and NOTHING else.

If FDOT wanted rail, and if FDOT listened to the citizens, it would be FLORIDA that:

Owned and operated METROLINK with 145 daily trains, in 32 cycles, covering 8,500 miles a day, in South Florida!
Owned and operated CALTRAIN with 35,041 daily riders on the St. Petersburg/Clearwater peninsular!
Owned and operated AMTRAK CALIFORNIA with with 12 trains and 5,300 daily riders through the heart of Florida!
Owned and operated the SURFLINERS with 24 daily trains between Jacksonville and Miami on the East Coast!
Owned and operated the COASTERS expanding to 72 trains daily between Miami and Tampa!
Owned and operated the ALTAMONTE EXPRESS with 4 daily trains between Jacksonville and Pensacola!
Owned and operated the SOUNDER'S with 9,000 daily riders between Jacksonville and Gainesville!
Owned and operated the CAROLINA CORRIDOR with 4 daily trains connecting Jacksonville and Ft. Myers Coast!

But guess what?

The ONE train our state sponsored is now dead and gone, and our Amtrak services have been cut from 12 daily trains to 2...  

Some desire these people!


OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: Ocklawaha on June 24, 2010, 11:42:19 PMThe ONE train our state sponsored is now dead and gone, and our Amtrak services have been cut from 12 daily trains to 2... 

Some desire these people![/b]

The powers that be won't have you with too many commuter rail lines. The aliens think that is a bad idea. HAHAHA!

Ocklawaha, what was the "one train?" What were the 12 daily trains?

With the Outer Beltway, they should build it to Tampa like they were going to do. At least, the speed traps will be eliminated!

The future of the Outer Beltway is occurring in Greenville, SC right now.  Will we be too stubborn to learn from their mistakes?

Southern Connector toll road files for bankruptcy
http://www.greenvilleonline.com/article/20100624/BUSINESS/100624007/1004/NEWS01/Southern-Connector-toll-road-files-for-bankruptcy-

The train that we sponsored was the "SILVER PALM" which flashed between Tampa and Miami then vanished. The name was later used on a longer overnight train that was also ill fated.

The others?

The CHAMPION - NY-Tpa
The Miamian - NY-Mia
The Palmetto - NY-JAX (extended to Miami/Tampa and killed)
The Vacationer - NY-Mia
The Florida Special - NY-Mia
The Floridian - Chi-Mia/Tpa
The South Wind - Chi-Mia/Tpa

all of the above X 2 for Jacksonville and some of them x 6 as they split here daily making for three arrivals and three departures. So calling it 12 is being generous.

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: stjr on June 24, 2010, 10:56:47 PM
Maybe, Tufsu, but what should a reasonable ratio be?  Is it roads to mass transit of 95/5?  80/20? 60/40?  My suspicion is it is closer to 95/5 than 50/50 but why don't you tell us for sure?

well today it is 80/20....I would guess that in the next 5-10 years, Florida (and the rest of the U.S.) will see something closer to 75-25....and I doubt we'll ever move beyond a 70-30 ratio in regards to state/federal funding.

As for what FDOT is thinking about long-term, check out the 2060 Plan currently underway

http://www.2060ftp.org/

And, finally to Ock's comments....come on, man, you knopw as well as I do that there are far more people in this state that think transit (especially rail) is an absolute waste of $....even "transit supporters" call HSR a mickey mouse train or rat rail.

Quote from: stjr on June 24, 2010, 05:28:34 PM

Quote from: JeffreyS on June 24, 2010, 10:50:02 AM
My fear is if some group pours a bunch of money into this they will fight commuter rail fearing people won't be paying their tolls.

...or not be asked to build all those feeder roads into the Outer Beltway's interchanges.  I mean FDOT and JTA, both of which are engineered to do that versus build commuter rail or any other mass transit with gusto and are just looking for excuses to maintain the status quo.

A pure Beltway vision that does not include concurrent corridor development land use changes, vesting/"Economic development" would never be tolerated because key corridor land owners have been the primary driver.

I'm sure those land owners would have no problem with land use changes that guidd more development to the corridor.

Quote from: tufsu1 on June 25, 2010, 10:11:45 AM
I'm sure those land owners would have no problem with land use changes that guidd more development to the corridor.

Of course not.Delaney giggled over the prospect in one memorable radio show interview.And key landowners have guided and invested in the process-key "Driver".The process has delivered boosterism of a different season to our  present day doorstep.
Certainly affected land owners should be involved and command some influence.For some reason they prefer to not have their I.D. profiled.

The Brannon/Chaffee beltway is a reflection of ardent land owner influence,the dreams and aspirations of a different time,lack of citizen participation in the planning arena due to fear,sense of futility.The Beltway is Blanding Blvd. personified,a process applied on a regional scale,rough and tumple local governement "Growth Management",and the "Beltway" appears as if by magic.
For example, and only a brief profile;on the Clay County side,with the placement of the 1973 Local Government Planning Act  Reinhold Corp quickly established future roadway map concept depicting Brannon Chaffee extension on down in to Penny Farms and over to Green Cove Springs- a graceful ,perfect arc.Citizen busy bodies with links to development such as BettyJane Triplett maintained county liason as if tending to a garden.

Key events included decades long starts and fits promotion of Brannon Chaffee.BC,a north/south alignment far to the west of Orange Park(the only dry land west of the broad,sprawling regional Little Black Creek/McGirts wetland belt)came in to being as a result of Tom Smathers and Gulfstream Land Development Corp. which,in concert with similar proposals statewide unveiled never before imagined 100,000 population "Argyle" on the Clay/Duval line.Even in the early 1970's county commissioners were promoting a 'much needed" third North/South arterial roadway for Clay,since the county had "only" two-State Road 21/Blanding and US 17-both of which were wide open, unencumbered by development.In the very early 70's commissioners promoted a new roadway parallel and west of Blanding.This effort soon failed due to existing neighborhood opposition in the Park Ridge area, and the fact that a subsequent route proposed further west would have traversed the Little Black Creek wetlands-not only prohibitive in cost but likely illegal under looming new wetland protection laws.
So all eyes focused on Argyle and Brannon Chaffee and a Kingsley Avenue extension proposal which spurned speculative land transfer.The Kingsley extension saddled with prohibitive costs-basically a bridge across wetlands.During the course of the 1980's Blanding Blvd. compromised/ruined due to what a grand jury would describe as "Inept" local government planning efforts strangled by undue development political influence.That same influence enjoyed solid footing and was at work on the Beltway.Although Brannon Chaffee was never intended or devised as a viable "alternate" to Blanding,the promotion as such under many clever angles directed to a gullible public ( and lax FTU editorial board) really flourished-and worked!  Our own Jacksonville Delegation under Pacjic placed low emphasis on B/C funding efforts,one member made a concerted effort to scrutinize the "alternate" claims and became staedfast in opposition to funding.
Gulfstream had suffered criminal investigations,Argyle went bust.(A Gulfstream official ,Mike Garretson would later pop up in the Delaney Administration for a short time....).Some former Argyle lands,approx. 1800 acres along the BC corridor were held by Trust For Public Lands-a pesky detail,County workshop minutes reflect such- and eventually the Trust lost it's grasp,most acreage going to well connected Jax area persons (who would rather remain unknown-Don Pittman was key player.After this episode he went across the River to St.Johns and created SilverLeaf.Hunting on much of Pittman's lands is like making love to a terminal partner-the lands are slated for development.) A couple of hundred acres went to the abbreviated Game & Fish Commission Brannon/Chaffee Mitigation Park,the rest became OakLeaf.
And Horne,King,Thrasher to the roadway funding rescue.

Clay County Sector Plans were key events. The first,addressing the Brannon/Chaffe area,over 20,000 acres extending down to "Middleburg", initially saw about 90 persons/citizens in workshop attendance.As the records will show,this soon dwindled to a core group of land owners and their representatives seeking vesting rights.(Like magic,all six or so design charette map tables would have the same "vision" emerge in vivid crayon....)Brian Wheeler/Genesis Group was selected by the county to conduct this first Sector Plan.Genesis promoted inclusion of thousands of affected land owners- including glowing account in "Water's Edge" however the largest land area was comprised of a handful of landowners involved in the process.

The second Sector,'Lake Asbury',grew contentious largely due to a different demographic.Lake Asbury citizens were more knowledgeable, inclined to participate ,more numerous and influential in pre determined "consensus" format, and energized over opposition to a proposed Brannon Chaffee extension (Beltway) on in to what had become state conservation area lands-Ravines.Now trying to be at arms length from Genesis,the County selected Prosser Hallock Planners & Consultants (Nocatee) for Lake Asbury.Also by this time the county planning head position was filled with a former Prosser Hallock employee,Thad Crowe.
Reinhold was present at the Lake Asbury public proceedings,as was Genesis mixed in the crowd on Reinhold's behalf.
For months the citizen's battled in multiple meetings against a beltway alignment that would not go away.Events were clearly,as a matter of formal record, not in favor of  Beltway promoters.Proceedings were put on hold for a time,citizens advised "the professionals' at Regional Planning Council would weigh in.When the meetings reconvened the Ravines alignment remained.(Florida growth management rules require public input-buy not held to accepting input)
Turns out Lake Asbury Sector Plan # 1 was not even authorized by Tallahassee/DCA.At the county commission meeting to transmit the Plan to the State I asked the Chairman if in fact the Sector Plan proceedings were in fact authorized,to which he shrugged his shoulders.Sector plans require specific authorization from DCA-we had just gone through many months of motion,to no avail.    ***Curious-and worthy of follow up***
During this first LA process the citizens were admonished by the county Planning head that the promoted growth the citizens were being asked to agree with/vest was "inevitable" and in weak response to Landowner influence concerns the County Planner claimed that 'no one powerful individual' would dominate.
There was eventually another authorized Lake Asbury Sector Plan,churned out and submitted to the state.
We were able to remove the beltway Ravines alignment away from the Ravines at the DCA level.

The gerrymandered present day beltway route, a departure from earlier depictions and in fact most actually built facilities reflects many such events and influences.

(The role of the FTU in all of this is telling,but not to be told here.)

At one point Reinhold approached the Water management District in a brazen attempt to swap the Ravines State Lands for more remote acreage south of Penny Farms.It almost worked had it not been for a first ever possible state constitution state lands Amendment challenge threat which would have really put us on the map.................

Also curious and worthy of follow up;The DOT Brannon Chaffee permit application for the section extending to Blanding Blvd. placed before Corp of Engineers and Water Mangagement District was under the guise of a "stand alone" project with "no...plans for extension."John Delaney,at the height of his "Green" hue, helped nudge the Agencies to permit approval.  

Coincident during the course of above brief outline events were broader regional DOT Beltway efforts-the legally viable "No Build " option quietly came and went.

Most readers who now question the viability of the beltway are unaware of the events profiled here in this very brief outline and that is the most empowering and dangerous aspect of the Beltway promotion.

Quote from: tufsu1 on June 25, 2010, 09:06:24 AM

And, finally to Ock's comments....come on, man, you knopw as well as I do that there are far more people in this state that think transit (especially rail) is an absolute waste of $....even "transit supporters" call HSR a mickey mouse train or rat rail.

HA! Maybe because our HSR "plan" is a mickey mouse plan, that smells of Rats large and small. Bottom line, it's designed by the folks who have brought us decades of more pavement and massive international airports, the ones now claiming that they have "always" supported rail. NOT.

I realize a knee jerk reaction might have been in order here since you might have had some hand in that planning, but really? You, Lake, I, or any other transit professional who would have taken that job would be just another guppy in a very big fish bowl.

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: north miami on June 25, 2010, 11:43:31 AM

Quote from: tufsu1 on June 25, 2010, 10:11:45 AM
I'm sure those land owners would have no problem with land use changes that guidd more development to the corridor.

Of course not.Delaney giggled over the prospect in one memorable radio show interview.And key landowners have guided and invested in the process-key "Driver".The process has delivered boosterism of a different season to our  present day doorstep.
Certainly affected land owners should be involved and command some influence.For some reason they prefer to not have their I.D. profiled.

The Brannon/Chaffee beltway is a reflection of ardent land owner influence,the dreams and aspirations of a different time,lack of citizen participation in the planning arena due to fear,sense of futility.The Beltway is Blanding Blvd. personified,a process applied on a regional scale,rough and tumple local governement "Growth Management",and the "Beltway" appears as if by magic.
For example, and only a brief profile;on the Clay County side,with the placement of the 1973 Local Government Planning Act  Reinhold Corp quickly established future roadway map concept depicting Brannon Chaffee extension on down in to Penny Farms and over to Green Cove Springs- a graceful ,perfect arc.Citizen busy bodies with links to development such as BettyJane Triplett maintained county liason as if tending to a garden.

Key events included decades long starts and fits promotion of Brannon Chaffee.BC,a north/south alignment far to the west of Orange Park(the only dry land west of the broad,sprawling regional Little Black Creek/McGirts wetland belt)came in to being as a result of Tom Smathers and Gulfstream Land Development Corp. which,in concert with similar proposals statewide unveiled never before imagined 100,000 population "Argyle" on the Clay/Duval line.Even in the early 1970's county commissioners were promoting a 'much needed" third North/South arterial roadway for Clay,since the county had "only" two-State Road 21/Blanding and US 17-both of which were wide open, unencumbered by development.In the very early 70's commissioners promoted a new roadway parallel and west of Blanding.This effort soon failed due to existing neighborhood opposition in the Park Ridge area, and the fact that a subsequent route proposed further west would have traversed the Little Black Creek wetlands-not only prohibitive in cost but likely illegal under looming new wetland protection laws.
So all eyes focused on Argyle and Brannon Chaffee and a Kingsley Avenue extension proposal which spurned speculative land transfer.The Kingsley extension saddled with prohibitive costs-basically a bridge across wetlands.During the course of the 1980's Blanding Blvd. compromised/ruined due to what a grand jury would describe as "Inept" local government planning efforts strangled by undue development political influence.That same influence enjoyed solid footing and was at work on the Beltway.Although Brannon Chaffee was never intended or devised as a viable "alternate" to Blanding,the promotion as such under many clever angles directed to a gullible public ( and lax FTU editorial board) really flourished-and worked!  Our own Jacksonville Delegation under Pacjic placed low emphasis on B/C funding efforts,one member made a concerted effort to scrutinize the "alternate" claims and became staedfast in opposition to funding.
Gulfstream had suffered criminal investigations,Argyle went bust.(A Gulfstream official ,Mike Garretson would later pop up in the Delaney Administration for a short time....).Some former Argyle lands,approx. 1800 acres along the BC corridor were held by Trust For Public Lands-a pesky detail,County workshop minutes reflect such- and eventually the Trust lost it's grasp,most acreage going to well connected Jax area persons (who would rather remain unknown-Don Pittman was key player.After this episode he went across the River to St.Johns and created SilverLeaf.Hunting on much of Pittman's lands is like making love to a terminal partner-the lands are slated for development.) A couple of hundred acres went to the abbreviated Game & Fish Commission Brannon/Chaffee Mitigation Park,the rest became OakLeaf.
And Horne,King,Thrasher to the roadway funding rescue.

Clay County Sector Plans were key events. The first,addressing the Brannon/Chaffe area,over 20,000 acres extending down to "Middleburg", initially saw about 90 persons/citizens in workshop attendance.As the records will show,this soon dwindled to a core group of land owners and their representatives seeking vesting rights.(Like magic,all six or so design charette map tables would have the same "vision" emerge in vivid crayon....)Brian Wheeler/Genesis Group was selected by the county to conduct this first Sector Plan.Genesis promoted inclusion of thousands of affected land owners- including glowing account in "Water's Edge" however the largest land area was comprised of a handful of landowners involved in the process.

The second Sector,'Lake Asbury',grew contentious largely due to a different demographic.Lake Asbury citizens were more knowledgeable, inclined to participate ,more numerous and influential in pre determined "consensus" format, and energized over opposition to a proposed Brannon Chaffee extension (Beltway) on in to what had become state conservation area lands-Ravines.Now trying to be at arms length from Genesis,the County selected Prosser Hallock Planners & Consultants (Nocatee) for Lake Asbury.Also by this time the county planning head position was filled with a former Prosser Hallock employee,Thad Crowe.
Reinhold was present at the Lake Asbury public proceedings,as was Genesis mixed in the crowd on Reinhold's behalf.
For months the citizen's battled in multiple meetings against a beltway alignment that would not go away.Events were clearly,as a matter of formal record, not in favor of  Beltway promoters.Proceedings were put on hold for a time,citizens advised "the professionals' at Regional Planning Council would weigh in.When the meetings reconvened the Ravines alignment remained.(Florida growth management rules require public input-buy not held to accepting input)
Turns out Lake Asbury Sector Plan # 1 was not even authorized by Tallahassee/DCA.At the county commission meeting to transmit the Plan to the State I asked the Chairman if in fact the Sector Plan proceedings were in fact authorized,to which he shrugged his shoulders.Sector plans require specific authorization from DCA-we had just gone through many months of motion,to no avail.    ***Curious-and worthy of follow up***
During this first LA process the citizens were admonished by the county Planning head that the promoted growth the citizens were being asked to agree with/vest was "inevitable" and in weak response to Landowner influence concerns the County Planner claimed that 'no one powerful individual' would dominate.
There was eventually another authorized Lake Asbury Sector Plan,churned out and submitted to the state.
We were able to remove the beltway Ravines alignment away from the Ravines at the DCA level.

The gerrymandered present day beltway route, a departure from earlier depictions and in fact most actually built facilities reflects many such events and influences.

(The role of the FTU in all of this is telling,but not to be told here.)

At one point Reinhold approached the Water management District in a brazen attempt to swap the Ravines State Lands for more remote acreage south of Penny Farms.It almost worked had it not been for a first ever possible state constitution state lands Amendment challenge threat which would have really put us on the map.................

Also curious and worthy of follow up;The DOT Brannon Chaffee permit application for the section extending to Blanding Blvd. placed before Corp of Engineers and Water Mangagement District was under the guise of a "stand alone" project with "no...plans for extension."John Delaney,at the height of his "Green" hue, helped nudge the Agencies to permit approval.  

Coincident during the course of above brief outline events were broader regional DOT Beltway efforts-the legally viable "No Build " option quietly came and went.

Most readers who now question the viability of the beltway are unaware of the events profiled here in this very brief outline and that is the most empowering and dangerous aspect of the Beltway promotion.

The above worth repeating............