Transit Numbers Released: How Does Jacksonville Rank?
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/814697301_QigXJ-M.jpg)
Ever wonder how Jacksonville's transit ridership numbers compare to other cities across the country? The American Public Transportation Association's (APTA) Fourth Quarter 2009 Ridership Report shows that JTA has some work to do.
Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2010-mar-transit-numbers-released-how-does-jacksonville-rank
JTA's answer will be to build more roads and buy more bus's! Still have shelter issue's but we have money for a Transportation Center which will increase ridership right?
a few notes on Florida ridership #'s
1. Miami and Ft. Lauderdale also include portions of Tri-Rail (listed as Pompano Beach)
2. Orlando's system (Central FL RTA or Lynx) includes service to metro area, not just Orange County
3. Tampa and Pinellas systems may get combined at some point into an RTA (like Orlando)
4. Gainesville # include on-campus routes in addition to citywide routes
5. Why isn't Tallahassee listed?
1700 Skyway riers per day = 443,000 weekday riders or 620,500 annual riders.
Interesting.
We don't stack up very well against other major cities in Florida, and we do really poor against other U.S. major cities; when Gainesville has more increased ridership than us (slightly), and we're supposedly a much bigger city (vis a vis consolidation), then something's wrong; and I know those numbers are reflective of the size of the consolidated city of Jacksonville. If that ridership was based on old city boundaries "pre consolidation" or new city boundaries (contemporary) outside of consolidation, we'd be below other Florida cities as well (sarasota, pompano beach, west palm beach, etc.).
"HU"
Quotewhen Gainesville has more increased ridership than us (slightly), and we're supposedly a much bigger city (vis a vis consolidation), then something's wrong;
The Gainesville numbers are skewed due to campus ridership. UF has made it a point to eliminate parking on campus which forces the majority of students living off campus to ride the bus. So most students have no choice. The fare for students is free because it is built into their tuition. I would venture to guess that non-campus ridership is no where close to the Jax system (if it really matters).
With all the bus lines we have, why is ridership not higher?
Ineffective routes?
Ridiculously long headways? (Actually that's a gimmie - the headways suck)
Ineffective management?
What else?
^Little things like a lack of bus shelters, long headways, poor customer service, inefficient transfers and a bad image add up to be huge stumbling blocks. In short, we have a hostile and unreliable system. Until that changes, ridership won't be as high as it possibly could.
I went to college at UCF in Orlando and was not a regular bus rider, but did so when needed, a few times a month. I have never used JTA because I perceive (maybe errantly) that it is kinda sketchy and not safe. I don't know if that is a widely held opinion, or if I would be in the minority. It seems like in Jacksonville people have to use the bus, they don't choose to use the bus.
Quote from: thelakelander on March 24, 2010, 09:18:05 AM
^Little things like a lack of bus shelters, long headways, poor customer service, inefficient transfers and a bad image add up to be huge stumbling blocks. In short, we have a hostile and unreliable system. Until that changes, ridership won't be as high as it possibly could.
And that changes how? New city administration appointing new people?
Quote from: cline on March 24, 2010, 08:58:35 AM
Quotewhen Gainesville has more increased ridership than us (slightly), and we're supposedly a much bigger city (vis a vis consolidation), then something's wrong;
The Gainesville numbers are skewed due to campus ridership. UF has made it a point to eliminate parking on campus which forces the majority of students living off campus to ride the bus. So most students have no choice. The fare for students is free because it is built into their tuition. I would venture to guess that non-campus ridership is no where close to the Jax system (if it really matters).
UF students make up a quarter of the city. Students do have choices and options. I rode the bus probably 4 times in gville, just because I preferred to bike my 2 miles to campus. There are multiple surface lots that are really cheap (100 hours for $100, or $500 a semester) adjacent to campus. Students for the most part live within two miles of the campus. RTS is just a well run bus system so you can predict what time you'll get picked up and dropped off, or make it to your destination without switching buses. I would say only about 33% of students ride the bus.
QuoteUF students make up a quarter of the city. Students do have choices and options. I rode the bus probably 4 times in gville, just because I preferred to bike my 2 miles to campus. There are multiple surface lots that are really cheap (100 hours for $100, or $500 a semester) adjacent to campus. Students for the most part live within two miles of the campus. RTS is just a well run bus system so you can predict what time you'll get picked up and dropped off, or make it to your destination without switching buses. I would say only about 33% of students ride the bus.
Actually, UF students make up 40% of the population of Gainesville (which is approximately 120k according to BEBR 2006 estimates). You are correct though students do have choices such as walking, biking or paying to park. However, many students do not live within walking distance (and some do not live within biking distance). Also, many students do not have the funds to pay for parking. I will agree with you on the fact that RTS is a fairly well run bus system. The headways are good (as long as you are not one of the last stops on the route) and the stops convenient, which is why I rode the bus my entire time there.
Not sure where you got the 33% number, but assuming it is true that is still 16k students everyday, not including any faculty or staff that may ride.
Quote from: Doctor_K on March 24, 2010, 09:58:29 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on March 24, 2010, 09:18:05 AM
^Little things like a lack of bus shelters, long headways, poor customer service, inefficient transfers and a bad image add up to be huge stumbling blocks. In short, we have a hostile and unreliable system. Until that changes, ridership won't be as high as it possibly could.
And that changes how? New city administration appointing new people?
Most likely a combination of things. Here are two ways to start to improve things.
1. Bus Shelters.
By allowing the private sector the right to advertise on them, most shelters could be provided and maintained free of charge. However, like with many issues facing this city, there's strong opposition to this. Nevertheless, its still a viable solution to protecting riders from the elements, which would help make the system more user friendly.
2. Downtown Loop/Skyway/PCTs
Most buses are required to take a crazy loop through downtown's streets. This burns fuel and increases the time required to access several destinations throughout town. At the same time, we have a skyway and PCTs already being funded that serve many of the same downtown destinations. Eliminating the duplication by better integrating these services (that are already being paid for) would enhance the service of several existing bus routes and increase ridership numbers on the skyway and PCTs.
These are just two simple examples of improving and better utilizing whats already in place. Other areas could be implementing a couple of proposed BRT corridors with regular high frequency bus service and improving the end user's ability to transfer between routes and modes.
It seems minor, but I think a better route naming system could help as well.
Our failures are the product of decades of neglect, of building a city for the wealthy, on the backs of $10 dollar an hour jobs. The mindset that all mass transit is for the poor and working class, and THEY won't complain too loudly as we hand them their daily rations. Decades of "good enough" rather then "best of the best". Decades of smoke and mirrors such as "HYBRID AC", and then selling it as "Green" and a real "Hybrid System"... Which it it not. Decades of 1/2 way efforts, incomplete projects, mountains of studies, molehills of action, dead end Skyways and routes completely out of touch with the demands of a modern society.
Maybe I should tell them what I really think??
OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: cline on March 24, 2010, 11:05:14 AM
It seems minor, but I think a better route naming system could help as well.
I don't think that's minor. On top of everything else that's horribly wrong with puiblic transportation, it's just another thing that makes riding the bus a pain in the ass.
Quote from: kells904 on March 24, 2010, 01:21:24 PM
Quote from: cline on March 24, 2010, 11:05:14 AM
It seems minor, but I think a better route naming system could help as well.
I don't think that's minor. On top of everything else that's horribly wrong with puiblic transportation, it's just another thing that makes riding the bus a pain in the ass.
I agree, this just follows on my previous statements, it's a system designed for the convience of the JTA rather then the riding public. Ditto the new "Hybrid AC" units, ask any rider if it matters to them HOW the air get's cooled... But a big chunk of change that could be making riding a better experience is being spent so the political machine can boast about green. Bogus. OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: Doctor_K on March 24, 2010, 08:47:04 AM
1700 Skyway riers per day = 443,000 weekday riders or 620,500 annual riders.
Interesting.
Dr. K, not sure how you made the leap from 443K to 620.5K.
Dr. K, I figure it this way:
1,700 trips/day x 5 weekdays = 8,500
8,500 x 52 weeks = 442,000 trips
1,700 trips, if they are round trips, equals 850 unique riders per day. If the system served regular daily locals, that would come to $14,000,000 annual operating loss/850 unique riders = $16,470/SUBSIDY/rider/year. Equal to buying a car for each rider.
Another way to look at this is:
$14,000,000 annual operating loss/442,000 trips = $31.67 SUBSIDY/trip.
Before Ock and others jump on to say public transit isn't suppose to make money, I agree. But, that is not the question. The question is which mode delivers the most service for the total cost (fare + subsidy). It doesn't appear to be the $ky-high-way. Not even close.
Quote
Dr. K, not sure how you made the leap from 443K to 620.5K.
1700 riders per day x 365 days in a year.
And I don't disagree with your figures. My challenge to you is this: figure out the subsidy for the JTA bus system with as much zeal as you have for the Skyway.
And again I say to you: extend the Skyway to a destination or two and see how your subsidy figures drop.
Assuming your numbers are right, how does that compare with the annual operating/maintenance cost of a road or air based example?
QuoteThat house deep in suburbia might look like a palatial bargain when compared with the high-priced urban real estate, but a new study says that if home buyers factor in the cost of transportation, they might think twice.
The report, produced by the Chicago-based nonprofit Center for Neighborhood Technology, coupled census data on population and income with local transportation costs to find the bottom-line cost of living in a particular neighborhood. Not surprisingly, the combined cost of a home that requires a longer commute by car might exceed that of a more expensive home within walking distance of transit.
"The farther you get out, the cost of transportation can double," said Scott Bernstein, president of CNT. "Somewhere between eight and 12 miles out from the center . . . housing costs dropped precipitously, but transportation costs went way up."
Larger urban areas such as New York, Chicago and San Francisco, with more established transit options, faired better than smaller cities where the car is still king.
http://sneakpeak.htaindex.cnt.org/
QuoteMy challenge to you is this: figure out the subsidy for the JTA bus system with as much zeal as you have for the Skyway.
Agreed. And also add in what lakelander said and compare it to road and air transit. The Skyway subsidy may not look all that bad then.
and remember that half of the $14 million annual skyway cost you cite is depreciation....factor that in for all modes as well.
Quote from: cline on March 24, 2010, 02:23:51 PM
QuoteMy challenge to you is this: figure out the subsidy for the JTA bus system with as much zeal as you have for the Skyway.
Agreed. And also add in what lakelander said and compare it to road and air transit. The Skyway subsidy may not look all that bad then.
I agree, road and air subsidies are likely far greater. I don't support the way those systems are played out either as is evident by my posts on MJ in which I favor mass transit over road building in particular. That's not the standard to use here. Mass transit of any kind should blow away road and air travel costs almost always. Moving 1 to 4 people at a time over land or jetting people into the air versus dozens to hundreds being moved on land is inherently less efficient for most situations.
The question, as I have stated before, is of all the MASS TRANSIT modes, which is most efficient?
$ky-high-way supporters consistently turn the other way when faced with this comparison. That's my problem with the $ky-high-way and its costs. It's my opinion that buses, trolleys, streetcars, and commuter rail move people far more effectively (more users, better user interface, and less overall costs per user) than the $ky-high-way. Haven't seen anything yet to convince me otherwise. And the $ky-high-way's history of HUGE failure (both in Jax and elsewhere) in the face of the same promises and expectations made on MJ to support its next expansion speaks volumes about its viability under any circumstances. Quote from: tufsu1 on March 24, 2010, 02:56:50 PM
and remember that half of the $14 million annual skyway cost you cite is depreciation....factor that in for all modes as well.
Tufsu, factor it in for any mode. I have no problem with that. Apples to apples. We agree! It's a real cost of doing business and shouldn't be left out.
QuoteI agree, road and air subsidies are likely far greater. I don't support the way those systems are played out either
So why aren't you advocating tearing down I-95 with as much zeal as you are with tearing down the Skyway?
It's not just about the numbers, it's also about the ride itself. In downtown traffic the LEAST efficient vehicle in terms of negotiating the gridlock is a streetcar or interurban/LRT car. Even Trolley Buses do better since they are designed to be able to swing out and away from obstructions. Sometimes the devil is in the details, build a 100% streetcar transit system, and have one big building downtown along the line catch fire at 4PM. Holy Hell! I don't think I have seen a "hose jumper" since I was 5.
If just half of that system were gliding above the streets like the Skyway, the problem could be solved. But because of expense, we wouldn't want to put all of our eggs in that basket either, and what do we do with routes that have light patronage but are needed just the same?
I've got it, let's buy highway vehicles! They can weave through the maze of traffic and fire trucks, hoses and angry streetcar patrons with ease. But OOPS!
Out at Dunn Avenue, Philips, Beach, Blanding, San Jose etc... that damn bus is still weaving in and out through the maze and going nowhere fast. Sooooo?
We take the patrons to the edge of the urban district and fill your streetcars, which by the time they are out of the congestion are on private right of way... IE: RAILROAD TRACK without pavement. We'll have to take the Skyway patrons too, because now that we're as far as the Stadium, San Marco, Shand's etc... the Skyway becomes just too damn expensive to construct for light density. Likewise the Trolley Bus is now limited to a couple of restricted lanes and very limited suburban routes.
A certain relief is addition of a commuter train to take folks to those more distant Burbs, and they can flash past all of those buses on Roosevelt, Philips, North Main, or Beaver. But Damn! They don't do Gateway Mall very well at all, so what to do now?
How about a STREETCAR on the old Railroad grade?
Does this help explain why even though I am the ORIGINAL STREETCAR EVANGELIST in the City, I still see a place for each and every mode in a city as sprawled and diverse as Jacksonville. Each mode needs it's downtown core or contact, and all of the systems should be woven into a tapestry of transit. The tighter the weave, the better the system... and your ridership problems will fade as the system image soars.
OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: Doctor_K on March 24, 2010, 02:04:46 PM
Quote
Dr. K, not sure how you made the leap from 443K to 620.5K.
1700 riders per day x 365 days in a year.
And I don't disagree with your figures. My challenge to you is this: figure out the subsidy for the JTA bus system with as much zeal as you have for the Skyway.
And again I say to you: extend the Skyway to a destination or two and see how your subsidy figures drop.
JTA buses should NOT go to Rosa Park Station. There should actually be 3 or 4 of those kinds of skyway terminals that feed downtown. The Skyway system is incomplete. Its like a bike with no back wheel and no damn handle bars.....whos gonna ride that?
Quote from: cline on March 24, 2010, 07:29:23 PM
So why aren't you advocating tearing down I-95 with as much zeal as you are with tearing down the Skyway?
Cline, first, unlike the $ky-high-way, and regardless of the cost, people use the heck out of I-95 and development has been fixated around its location. Can't say either of those statements can be applied to the $ky-high-way after 30 years or so.
But, you are right, if we had a great commuter and intercity rail system in place, I would be on board for considering dismantling the interstate. Unfortunately, I won't live long enough to see it probably, but within the next few generations, I wouldn't be surprised to see the interstate system dismantled as rail transit supplants it. We already have the first steps in this with the creeping introduction of rail down interstate highways in many metro areas and the growing dependency of major world cities on mass transit over auto. I fully expect at some point the pendulum swings so far to rail, that the interstate succumbs. More a matter of when, than if. Could be another 100 to 200 years, who knows.
Second, I have advocated NOT EXPANDING the interstate system in N.E. Florida by questioning why we want to construct both the Outer Beltway and 9B instead of mass transit.
So, to your point, I think I am consistent with your expectations.
Just another reason why Jacksonville Sucks a$$. They should scrap the whole system and start fresh.
Quote from: Ca3rice on March 29, 2010, 11:07:18 PM
Just another reason why Jacksonville Sucks a$$. They should scrap the whole system and start fresh.
Welcome aboard Ca3rice! We don't need to scrap a thing my friend, just FINISH what we started. Follow the Skyway's plans and phases and complete the line to:
The Shands/VA Medical Complex
San Marco - Atlantic at the FEC Railroad
Brooklyn - Riverside at Rosselle
Stadium - Bay Street at N. Georgia
The current Skyway is the equal of the old Jacksonville Expressway Authority building out our FREEways with 18 lanes, from Durkeeville to Gateway, and then walking away and tossing up our hands... 30 years and it STILL doesn't work... DUH! OCKLAWAHA
Lights won't ever go on Ock! JTA is too focused on "concrete" or BRT! Rail is not in their vocabulary and the current administration could not find their way out of a phone booth much less look into the future!
Ca3rice, welcome to MJ. Ock and I agree on many things, but the $ky-high-way and ads on bus shelters are where we respectfully see things differently.
I encourage you to visit the several view count and post leading threads on the MJ "Transportation, Mass Transit, and Infrastructure" forum for an energetic review of the pros and cons on both these issues.
Among these threads, you will find my oft repeated response to Ock about how the $ky-high-way is already a once-expanded and completed system in its existing state as self declared by JTA, it's godfather. Without regard to additional expansion options, this current completed system has dismally failed twice (once for Phase I, and again for expansion Phase II) by 90+% its "expert" traffic projections after 30 years of booming economies and population. And, with every passing year, it declines into the abyss ever more with no end in site, promises of better days be damned. Any Phase III (the arguments for which mirror those for Phases I and II) would be pure folly based on the $ky-high-way's history. More importantly, I believe we have far more appealing options using streetcars and buses.
Unlike Ock, and given the lousy taste the $ky-high-way has left in the mouths of many taxpayers about mass transit, I don't see this City contemporaneously building multiple integrated mass transit systems over the foreseeable future. With such limitations, I support pursuing the "most bang for the buck" options, buses and streetcars, followed by commuter rail. If in 30 more years, the $ky-high-way hasn't been reduced to rusting metal and crumbling concrete, Ock can try again to raise his flag for it.
That's my side and I'm stickin' to it! ;)
As one who TRIES to use the Skyway when necessary, I can share my quibble.
I use the Skyway for two events annually. The Auto Show at the PO and the Gator Bowl Parade.
The station at the PO was a mess. The elevators were broken, the change machines were off (or broken) and we almost had to jump a turnstile if not for someone who happened to have change.
For previous Gator Bowl Parades we simply parked in the JTA Kings Street Garage, walked to the station and rode. Only in 2010, JTA kicked us out of the garage saying it was a "private" garage and could only be used by the new Hilton Garden Inn customers or with monthly passes. After some back and forth, I was pushed into a private lot as you go under I-95.
In 2009, the Skyway broke down at the peak ridership for the Gator parade and the change machines were still broken. I called and complained bitterly about how the tourists were being treated by this carelessness. In 2010, everything worked. Change machines were on, there were 3 JTA employees on all platforms with radios to alert for any issues. All the elevators were working as well.
I know they can do it when they want to. But getting booted out of the Kings Street Garage after this many years of use still irks me. Especially when it sits there half empty 7 days a week.
Quibble complete.