Taking advantage of what we already have
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This presentation outlines Metro Jacksonville's solution for decreasing the cost of JTA's Bus Rapid Transit proposal, while creating an overall mass transit system that works best within our neighborhoods.
Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/541
Let's face it. JTA will not let BRT go and they surely won't rethink any of their plans. It seems there is nothing any of us citizens can do about it. I wonder when this BRT thing is constructed, will the people at JTA actually ride this thing as well? Probably not because they won't live near any access points to it, "Damn we should have done that rail thing 25 years ago"
There's a lot us citizens can do about it. For one, we can continue to speak out and educate people about this and keep the council from giving final approval to JTA to spend their $100 million of BJP money on BRT right-of-way.
Second, despite JTA's dreams, this thing still needs a lot of money from the Federal level. That's another avenue we can take this fight to.
Also, this type of thing has been successfully pulled off in the past, elsewhere. In Kansas City, a group of residents were able to successfully get light rail approved by local voters, which was in direct opposition to that city's transit authority's plans for BRT.
So the most critical thing, is to never give up hope and continue the education process for residents, JTA planners and city officials.
i meant to quote something from the article above, but i can't find it now. it was something in the "take advantage of what we already have" section (if that was even quoted correctly). anyway, i don't mean to sound like my former city is a shining example, but i believe st. louis' metrolink system was started using a federal funds-matching program.
"The capital cost to build the initial phase of MetroLink was $465 million. Of that amount, $348 million was supplied by the Federal Transit Administration (FTA)." -Wikipedia
"MetroLink is an example of cooperation between local and federal governments. The light rail system has benefited from a unique marriage of local and federal partnering and a shared vision that has made the project a resounding success. When funding for MetroLink was being sought, planners realized that the local match to federal funds could be found right in the City's backyard. Fourteen miles of abandoned rail right-of-way, structures, tunnels in the downtown area and the rail deck of the historic Eads Bridge, which spans the Mississippi River connecting the Missouri and Illinois region, were assessed at a value of more than $110 million and accepted as the local match of federal funding for this multi-million dollar infrastructure investment. Local political leadership working together with the federal government was the key to creating such a unique funding strategy. As a result, the St. Louis regions has a 21st century transportation system that is enjoying strong community support." -fmr StL Mayor Freeman Bosley, Jr, 1996.
http://www.mayors.org/USCM/us_mayor_newspaper/documents/08_26_96/documents/MetroLink_Is_Study_in_Cooperation_100396.html
basically, st. louis contributed existing rights of way assessed at $110 million for the project and the feds paid the rest of the $465 million of the original metrolink that opened in 1993, i believe (it's been expanded through local sales taxes since). it's a good example of how to use what you already have. i think i've said this before, but i don't think jacksonville has that much in usable assets. i could be wrong, though.
Ock can provide further detail, but the St. Louis light rail system is also another recent rail system that was constructed for less per mile than our current bus rapid transit proposal.
QuoteWhen funding for MetroLink was being sought, planners realized that the local match to federal funds could be found right in the City's backyard. Fourteen miles of abandoned rail right-of-way, structures, tunnels in the downtown area and the rail deck of the historic Eads Bridge, which spans the Mississippi River connecting the Missouri and Illinois region, were assessed at a value of more than $110 million and accepted as the local match of federal funding for this multi-million dollar infrastructure investment.
Seems like the 5 mile city owned abandoned S-line rail right-of-way and the existing overpasses at I-95 and MLK Parkway that are associated with it.
The concept of the Skyway is great. But the concept is no way finished (is it?) When the Skyway was put together did the City really think that The Prime Osborne was the marquee of the city and the route? Is there one logical reason the Skyway goes nowhere near the Stadium, Arena, Zoo, any of the museums, or any shopping areas. I have friends that say that it goes near The Landing. Well not really. Its almost 2 blocks from there. The Skyway is a great , just dont plan to go anywhere.
At a meeting with Metro Jacksonville a few months ago, Mayor Peyton stated it would not be a good reason to extend it because it could not handle the extra amount of riders it would get if it served the sports district. I believe JTA isn't interested in extending it because of the overall costs for such a move. Instead they believe local transit is more effective with BRT and trolley shaped buses running down downtown's streets today.
The skyway does go near the landing - like you said, under two blocks. Listen, with any transit system, you are not going to hit every destination on the nose - it's not possible.
Now, the think that makes the skyway seem miles awayt from the landing is the surface parking lot on one side, and the vacant lot on the other side (where Kuhn supposedly will build one of his projects sometime between now and 2025). Imagine if this was retail and restaraunts, or even buildings for that matter - it wouldn't seem as long as it is now.
I think one area that would experience huge growth due to Commuter rail, and not BRT, would be Murray Hill. One TOD would really ignite the area and bring traffic to their already growing town center area. That place is on the edge of a rebirth, and rail would definitely cause it to tip.
More info on the Kansas City Light Rail situation:
QuoteLight Rail Plan Threatened with Legal Action
KANSAS CITY â€" Light-rail activists are threatening to sue Kansas City officials if they significantly change or delay the plan approved by voters in November. Lawyer Valerie Chastain, wife of light rail activist Clay Chastain, is representing her husband and the committee of petitioners for the voter-approved light rail initiative.
Clay Chastain said the city’s new mayor and new City Council would face legal action if any of the following conditions occurred: The new mayor does not take action on the initiative, the new City Council votes not to take action on the plan or to significantly change the plan, or the new Council tries to retract the initiative through the city charter.
The City Council heard reports from transportation experts on January 18, who said the voter-approved plan must be significantly revised in order to be legally and legislatively plausible. Assistant City Attorney Bill Geary said in a release that the council “is taking a rational and methodical approach to deal with the light-rail issue, in order to respect the will of the voters to provide light rail.†In response to the possible forthcoming litigation, Geary said, “The threat of a lawsuit does not impact the need for a revised plan.â€
http://tomwarnereport.com/twr/twr_v4n4.html
QuoteLight Rail Support Growing With Local Business Leaders
The Kansas City Star reports that local business leaders â€" historically opposed to every single light rail proposal in the past â€" are now experiencing a change of heart. While this most likely has everything to do with the potential dollar signs they're seeing related to private development along the line, it's still a step in the right direction. It could be a double-edged sword, however, if these leaders feel compelled to pressure the city into changing the approach for routing or technology. Most impressive are the words of Tom Hoenig, president of the Federal Reserve Bank of Kansas City:
"People say light rail is a subsidy. But I watched the Grandview Triangle, and the amount of money spent redesigning it gives you a sense of the cost of maintaining a highway system as well. Light rail would relieve some of that and also provide cleaner air."
Elsewhere in today's Star, Teresa Williams rambles on excessively about light rail on the opinion page, finally leaving us with this nugget: "Woo us, tease us, make us want it." And no, we really didn't need another comparison between Clay Chastain and Don Quixote.
http://kclightrail.com/2006/12/30/light-rail-support-growing-with-local-business-leaders/
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This is a good read for those in Jax as well. Its a pretty comprehensive article on KC's quest for an affordable rail solution using different types of rail technology.
What will run on the rails? Parts 1 through 4 1: Diesel Multiple Unit (DMU) railcar (ex. Colorado Railcar DMU)
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2: Light Rail Vehicles (ex. Minneapolis Hiawatha Line)
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3: Self-propelled light railway cars (ex. New Jersey RiverLine, Austin Capital MetroRail)
(http://thekansascitypost.com/blog_images/camden-trenton_Bombardier_LRV.jpg)
** of interesting note: similar systems are being planned in Harrisburg, PA, Madison, WI and Spokane, WA. All metros smaller than Jacksonville.**4: Ultra Light Rail (ULR)
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full article: http://thekansascitypost.com/blog_archive/2007_05_13_blog_archive.html
Quote from: Captain Zissou on August 13, 2007, 12:13:07 PM
I think one area that would experience huge growth due to Commuter rail, and not BRT, would be Murray Hill. One TOD would really ignite the area and bring traffic to their already growing town center area. That place is on the edge of a rebirth, and rail would definitely cause it to tip.
Murray Hill would greatly benefit from a local rail system that could include a stop at Edgewood Avenue. Instead of portions of the area being demolished for bus expressway lanes, the Hill's entire commercial district would increase in value from being directly connected to the rest of the city and downtown with rail. Like San Marco Square or Avenues Walk, it could be an instant destination spot, further eliminating the question of where do you go when you get off the train.
A light hearted barb pointed at JTA and City Hall, If you are insulted by this, "I ask forgiveness because I just love this stuff, and you obviously have me confused with someone that gives a damn..."
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A sound advice for JTA!
Want to really enrage that Jacksonville Pride? It's true we are NOT TO SMALL or NOT DENSE ENOUGH for rail. We want to jump start our downtown and we already own the answer. Add to the "S" line the "J" line... a line of Railroad from Gateway Plaza to Bay Street at Maxwell House. Their is already an overpass for it at Hogans Creek on the Union Street Expressway. Using the historic trolley as a development tool downtown, and using the SAME tracks downtown as a distributor for the DMU's that Lakelander has outlined. MIX THEM, run them as trolleys downtown, then sprint up the old "S" or "J" line to Gateway. The historic cars could just do the "figure 8" downtown, while the DMU's did both. Further the DMU could run electric while downtown, which would quiet noise and remove pollution.
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Just imagine this scene re-created in downtown Jacksonville today!
I'm preaching to the Choir, but I'm telling you, if we can force this City awake, LRT will be like pouring gasoline on a flame!
Oh yes, that rage? Well indeed we are "just to small", "not very dense" and "way too spread out" for rail... oh really? Lakelander and I left a few cities off that list he posted... Here are the others WITH RAIL up and operating and almost all with designs to expand it:
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Here come the Trolley in terribly dense Whitehorse Yt.
Ft. Collins, Co, population 379,800 MSA
Ft. Smith, Ar, population 224,600 MSA
Galveston, Tx, population 196,000 MSA
Kenosha, Wi, population 162,100 MSA
San Pedro, Ca, population, 58,622 MSA
Issaquah, Wa, population 50,646 MSA
El Reno, Ok, population 17,822 MSA
Astoria, Or, population 17,187 MSA
Whitehorse, Yt, population 23,000 (NOTE: for JTA planners, Yt. stands for Yukon Territory which is in Canada, and no where near NAS JAX)
Nelson, Bc, population 9,700 (NOTE: for JTA planners, Bc has nothing to do with cave men, it stands for British Columbia, which is also in Canada).
and now... add to the list... our big brother to the North...
S A V A N N A H G E O R G I A
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(Two cars are already in the roundhouse. Roundhouse? Well yeah, they ALREADY HAVE a railroad museum!)
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These JTA guys wouldn't know a Light Rail Vehicle if it ran over them... oops!
An analogy? How about, "Watching JTA planning, is gives one the same queasy feeling as standing on the banks of the Amazon and watching Dolphins devour the carcass of a dead Jaguar..." DAMN!
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A suggestion for JTA's fake $200,000 dollar trolleys (which have failed to meet any ridership projections). I want to be there when this day comes and we give them the old "Deep Six!"
Ocklawaha
"The abbie Hoffman of the Transit World..."
If Fort Collins, Colorado can do it, then there's no reason Jax can't.
would you rather jump on an elevated busway paralleling I-95 or something like this?
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9 Circles of JTA HELL
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In case this is very confusing. DMU, LRT, LRV, BUS, JTA... ETC...
The reason WHY the light Diesel Motor Unit or DMU is able to run on trolley trackage is because:
1. They are both just different (slightly) types of TRAINS. It is very common to mix them in Europe and on light track in the USA.
2. Both run on the same type of track as CSX or FEC it just doesn't have to be as massively built.
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A typical Trolley draws it's power from a "TROLLEY POLE".
3. Both are basically electric Trolleys
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A leggo locomotive, to demonstrate what's inside the car body, big engine up front, big generator in back.
4. Those big "diesel" locomotive on CSX? FEC? or NS? are also electrically powered, the only thing in the big car-body that you see when it roars past is a huge diesel engine 2,000 to 6,000 HP, which is turning a power-plant size generator, which in turn feeds power to the "trucks" or sets of wheels where the REAL MOTORS ARE.
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This view allows one to see the electric part of the system, the motors and REAL power.
5. So what does this mean to us? Well, if one puts trolley poles or pantographs on top of that Diesel unit, so it can draw power directly from the overhead trolley wire, you COULD shut down the diesel power plant or toss it into idle and run on electric from the wire. Since that power would simply bi-pass the diesel and generator set.
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Heavy Rail, LRT and most Modern Streetcars use Pantographs for power pick-up, they can be lowered or raised at will.
6. This is why I keep saying, if we built the historic trolley for downtown and tourism, and the DMU system that Lake is laying out on the "S" or old "J" (Maxwell House) spur line, they COULD work together on the SAME track. The historic streetcars just stay in downtown and the DMU's have the ability to leave the wire and go solo to Gateway.
7. For the lines South, Southwest and West, we need a different vehicle, one that is more railroad size or we would be caught in a very narrow window of operation if any.
8. The "River-Line" LRV that Lake is showing, is operating on freight railroad track, but it MUST be divided from freight by a tight operation window as well as a system of locking out other trains while it operates. That would be fine for a lightly used track such as North Main Street, but it won't work for a busy mainline like FEC, or CSX.
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Trolley or diesel locomotive? Well, try Interurban Trolley... This set is ready for the car in San Pedro.
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Little Rock has found the bridge to be something of a reigonal attraction, EVERYONE wants to ride the trolley over the bridge and take photos!
9. There has also been questions on how we get a trolley over the river, and I hope in this case that one photo is worth 1,000 words. Yes, they can climb and in FACT do the downgrade thing better (safer) then buses in the rain
Ocklawaha
"The Abbie Hoffman of the Transit World..."
Quote"Woo us, tease us, make us want it." And no, we really didn't need another comparison between Clay Chastain and Don Quixote.
Everyone in Colombia call's me "Don Roberto," and old Quixote has been added more then once! Glad I'm not the only one. Ocklawaha
Quote8. The "River-Line" LRV that Lake is showing, is operating on freight railroad track, but it MUST be divided from freight by a tight operation window as well as a system of locking out other trains while it operates. That would be fine for a lightly used track such as North Main Street, but it won't work for a busy mainline like FEC, or CSX.
Considering Orlando's commuter rail deal will involve relocating freight traffic on the A line over to the S line, the CSX corridor from downtown to Orange Park, Green Cove and Palatka would also potentially fall in that light range category. Combining it with the abandoned S-line through the Northside would present the possibility of a decent sized +20 mile starter DMU served transit corridor at a pretty affordable price (compared to building BRT's North and SW routes). It also doesn't significantly alter JTA's planned route patterns for BRT because the bus expressway is planned to simply parallel this same exact line.
As you stated above, the FEC line is pretty busy track and any system using those lines would have to serve more a traditional commuter rail type service (I can't imagine FEC only running freight at night on that line). However, it's not like things along that route are compact and pedestrian friendly either, so traditional commuter rail between Jacksonville and St. Augustine makes a lot of sense as well.
The only things left on the CSX line will be the Palatka Coal fired generating plant which get's a coal train and the paper mill, which ships out paper and "could" get pulp wood in by rail. Add to that 6 Amtrak trains with more to come that run contra-flow to the rush hours. Heavy Southbound in the MORNING and Northbound in the EVENING. We could, and probably should have our City transportation guy work with Amtrak to do a 12 hour flip of at least two of those trains, running overnight to/from Miami via Orlando. That would put them through Jax about 12:01 - 2 AM Southbound. The other could run South a bit later... Well, all in all, a VERY workable plan. Yes, the old "A" line is not going to see much traffic unless the FDOT is working with DOT in Washinton, on this North-East-Corridor project. It could also be that with push from Amtrak, the CSX "A" line will get the nod as the new EAST-COAST CORRIDOR PROJECT comes along. We could still get some years of service out of it before the change was made.
Ocklawaha
Someone should look into Phoenix, and contact their transportation dept for more informational support, as they're right in the middle of constructing their light rail system.
Use of S-rail for commuter rail and jogging trail is great! I would use it tomorrow! I hope JTA and the city, who claim to have no oversight over JTA, will reconsider their ridiculously expensive and ill-thought out system to do the thing the customers/residents/users want.
How can this presentation be used to get petitional support in affected districts? If anyone is going to do this, be sure to ask, and indicate, non-riders and riders (to thwart JTA's "those aren't riders" response). Then maybe the council would listen?