No money for public safety? Check.
No money for education? Check.
No money for social services? Check.
No money for non-profits performing public functions? Check.
No money for cultural enrichment? Check.
No money for maintenance and repairs? Check.
No money for parks and recreation? Check.
Money for roads to support developer led urban sprawl as usual? Check.
Despite the grossly misleading headline below (shame on you, Times Union!), this is CITY money paying for this road. The breakdown: $375,000 for eminent domain plus $4.4 million in foregone infrastructure fees equals the $4.7 million cost of the road. And, the icing on the cake, developer friendly (NE Florida Builders Association's) Dan Davis and his City Council friends thinking he might be able to pull an additional $2.1 million rabbit out of the hat. What happened to that budget tightening, Mr. Davis?QuotePrivate developer will build road if city lets him construct shopping centers near Interstate 295 and Collins Road
The project to connect two busy roads is only partially funded.
* By Larry Hannan
* Story updated at 1:15 AM on Tuesday, Mar. 9, 2010
A four-lane road that would connect Youngerman Circle to Collins Road may end up being partially built by a private developer.
Under a plan going to the Jacksonville City Council today, developer Thomas Dumas would help build Parramore Road - currently a two-lane dirt road - and then build two shopping centers nearby.
The plan concerns the Council Auditor's Office, which objects to Dumas only building a portion of the roadway, for $4.7 million. The rest, which would connect to Youngerman Circle and is expected to cost $2.1 million, is unfunded.
Councilman Daniel Davis said the council, at today's meeting, will try to figure out a way to find the extra money.
Under the proposed agreement, Dumas would build Parramore from Collins Road south to where one of his developments will end. In return, Dumas would be allowed to build a 285,000-square-foot shopping center on 41 acres of land south of Collins Road and a 150,000-square-foot shopping center on 13 acres of land north of Collins Road, between Interstate 295 and Rampart Road.
The city also would pay the developer $375,000 to settle an eminent domain lawsuit over the land and waive about $4.4 million in fair-share money - meant to pay for infrastructure work - the developer would normally have to pay for building permits to build the shopping centers.
Auditor Kirk Sherman said the roadway construction would not offset the extra traffic that would be on Parramore and Collins if the road doesn't go to Youngerman Circle. Building the entire road would ease his concerns.
http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2010-03-09/story/private_developer_will_build_road_if_city_lets_him_construct_shopping_ce
I know, this made me throw up a little in my mouth.
Technically this is infill in an already developed area. Furthermore, it increases road connectivity which is a very good idea, and a necessary component to mitigating the problems of Jax's sprawl.
I wholeheartedly concur that the basic existence of the entire Blanding/Argyle area makes me want to throw up a little in my mouth. However, the fact remains that it is already there, and has been there for years. Consequently, railing against this project is tantamount to advocating against connectivity and infill.
Yeah, sprawl sucks ... but once the sprawl is already there, it's usually considered an improvement when you can add little components of density and connectivity.
Quote from: Joe on March 09, 2010, 08:28:05 PM
Technically this is infill in an already developed area.
Joe, you just wrote the prescription for urban sprawl. One large development and everything else is infill. On this basis, every plot of land is fair game. Why don't we just infill everything from Jax to Palm Coast. And, if we are in Daytona, why don't we inflill everything from there to Palm Coast. Now, we have infill all the way to Daytona. Now, let's infill from there to Orlando. Etc. etc. So, what ISN'T subject to infill?.
QuoteFurthermore, it increases road connectivity which is a very good idea, and a necessary component to mitigating the problems of Jax's sprawl.
This comment poses two issues IMHO. First, ROAD connectivity through virgin land is not a good idea and it epitomizes the creation of sprawl (i.e. bringing development to virgin land, which is exactly what two large shopping centers and whatever else follows will do). Second, if there is a desire for better connectivity, it should not be a ROAD, but MASS TRANSIT. Did Mr. Davis consider that option?
One more point to add: WE JACKSONVILLE citizens are being asked to use our SCARCE CITY dollars to benefit CLAY County which is where this road is connecting to. Don't we have our own more pressing issues in DUVAL County to spend this money on? And, where is money from Clay County for this project?
actually the project would be funded with both public and private dollars....the City had previously committed to building a 2-lane road...the Developer will chip in the extra to build it with 4 lanes.
as for being broke....there is a major difference between capital spending and operations....and rarely can the money be mixed.
Good point on the Clay County connection stjr. 4 lanes makes it quicker for them to get out of Duval. In fact, think about all of the money Duval has spent making it easier for them to live in their quaint little subdivisions and still be able to have a decent job in Duval. Shouldn't Clay County pay for the next 295 and connector interchange? In fact they should pay for the future improvements to 295 and Blanding because that will after all only benefit Clay people who work on the Southside. ::)
Quote from: tufsu1 on March 09, 2010, 10:15:07 PM
actually the project would be funded with both public and private dollars....the City had previously committed to building a 2-lane road...the Developer will chip in the extra to build it with 4 lanes.
Tufsu, I guess you completely missed my point. Whatever the developer "chips in" is effectively public dollars the City gave him. Laundered money, so to speak. Where are the "new" private dollars?Quoteas for being broke....there is a major difference between capital spending and operations....and rarely can the money be mixed.
OK, Tufsu. Spend the $6+ million on Downtown streetcars, new or improved parks, fixing or improving existing roads, the fountain, anything else but another road to Clay County that we will have to maintain forever and ever after it's built when we don't have money to pay for what we already maintain. Bottom line: There are plenty of better ways to spend this money... if it can be found.
Quote from: brainstormer on March 09, 2010, 10:30:17 PM
Good point on the Clay County connection stjr. 4 lanes makes it quicker for them to get out of Duval. In fact, think about all of the money Duval has spent making it easier for them to live in their quaint little subdivisions and still be able to have a decent job in Duval. Shouldn't Clay County pay for the next 295 and connector interchange? In fact they should pay for the future improvements to 295 and Blanding because that will after all only benefit Clay people who work on the Southside. ::)
Amen
^You want to really fix this problem? Add these at the county line and generate some extra income in the process.
(http://www.drivinglikeass.com/storage/toll_booth_fast_lane.jpg)
In any event, I don't think this road goes into Clay County. It just connects Collins Road with Youngerman Circle.
I get the distinct impression that stjr hasn't actually looked at a map of where this is proposed.
This "virgin land" is a vacant parcel adjacent to I-295 that has been completely surrounded by development for over 10 years.
Quote from: thelakelander on March 09, 2010, 11:24:40 PM
In any event, I don't think this road goes into Clay County. It just connects Collins Road with Youngerman Circle.
You are correct Lake. Youngerman Circle is just above the county line at its intersection with Argyle Forest. Nonetheless, the traffic improvement appears designed to benefit Blanding and I-295 and that is, for all intents and purposes, Clay County traffic.
With nearby Ramparts Road, mentioned as well in the article, connecting already between Collins and Argyle Forest, why is there a need for Collins to connect a short distance away back into Youngerman, one end of which also terminates into Argyle Forest?
If the intent is to feed more Collins Road traffic back and forth into Youngerman at I-295, it would seem this would make an already terrible intersection which is way too close to the Blanding/I-295 on/off ramps, even worse than it is already. So, where is the relief here?
Below is a link to a Google maps aerial of the area: http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=orange+park,+florida&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=49.223579,79.013672&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Orange+Park,+Clay,+Florida&ll=30.201149,-81.753087&spn=0.026445,0.038581&t=h&z=15
Quote from: Joe on March 09, 2010, 11:41:19 PM
This "virgin land" is a vacant parcel adjacent to I-295 that has been completely surrounded by development for over 10 years.
Noted, Joe. My point is, we have so many areas that are completely developed and in need of much improvement, why pursue infill on virgin land, regardless of its surroundings and add to our woes, when we are so short of funds for the fully developed areas?
Looking at the aerials, the only "benefit" I see to this road is enabling the developer to build two more shopping centers. The proposed road appears of questionable traffic benefit, and with two new shopping centers, it would appear whatever little benefit it might provide would be more than wiped out by the shopping center traffic created.
stjr ....I agree with your take on the situation! Not only is fair shair being circumvented again, but the taxpayers get to fund another road for developers to make more money on! You gotta love Dan Davis taking care of all of his GOB buddies one more time! No conflict of interest here...........just one GOB taking care of the rest of the network!
The 'virgin land" and other parcels like it in proximity to I-295 would have been developed long ago had it not been for the development emphasis on Clay County,leaving large swaths of Duval behind.
The entire region is a mess.
What's wrong with leaving a few trees for the birds and squirrels? Must all of Northeast Florida be retention ponds and paved parking lots! Good grief!
Im glad people know all about Duval County.
Born and raised a westsider, and I hate to burst your bubble, but Youngerman Circle is all Duval County. Same with Collins rd, same with Blanding to the Ortega River bridge. Matter of fact, most traffic from Argyle Blvd onto Blanding Blvd is from Duval County. So who would benefit here? Most assuredly not Clay County. Most of Argyle is Duval County.
So how/why should Clay pay for this?
This area is a field, nothing more. Has a few trailers on it, and a few trees, nothing natural at all. (it was former pasture land, like most of Argyle was). It has an old man made pond on it.
To be honest, if it was built, I could see some redirection of traffic from youngerman onto it and then onto the new interchange @ Collins Rd.
It is no different than someone building a new rd @ Baymeadows and 9A and connecting it to Gate Parkway.
Quote from: jandar on March 10, 2010, 08:50:10 PM
To be honest, if it was built, I could see some redirection of traffic from youngerman onto it and then onto the new interchange @ Collins Rd.
It is no different than someone building a new rd @ Baymeadows and 9A and connecting it to Gate Parkway.
Jandar, if an interchange gets built at Collins with I-295 AND this road gets built AND two large shopping centers get built AND the last little bit of infill gets squeezed in on the remaining "virigin" land, you will have a duplicate of the very bottleneck at I-295 and Blanding that is supposed be assisted by this. What is the point of this project other than to support the developer building the shopping centers? It certainly doesn't appear to be for real traffic relief.
I do agree that Baymeadows to Gate is more of the same. But, two wrongs don't make a right. The madness needs to stop somewhere. Don't forget, a big issue is the use of City money when it says it's broke for everything else.
As to Clay benefiting, if Blanding dead ended at Youngerman in Duval, I don't think it would be the bottleneck at I-295/Blanding that it currently is. It is only because Blanding continues into Clay and serves all of its residents that I-295/Blanding is overwhelmed. So, if this is to relieve that interchange (again, a questionable proposition in itself) then why shouldn't Clay assist? By the way, isn't Blanding a STATE road? Maybe FDOT should pay for this project. Then both counties could party! 8)
Help me understand how the "City money" in this. I will give you the $375,000 "eminent domain" money - not sure I even understand that - what government exercised eminent domain? Did someone take some land from this landowner? And, if the good councilman finds $2.1 million to finish the road down to Youngerman, yes, that is City money. But the $4.4 "fair share" money would not exist if the developer weren't developing something. Instead of paying into a fund, and the money perhaps being spent elsewhere in the City, the developer is building part of a road (they should build all of it).
Now, don't get the idea I'm endorsing this thing - adding two shopping centers to the end of the brand new exit ramps is not a good idea for traffic. But, there isn't $6 million of City money in this thing. The $2.5 is plenty, though.
Why isn't the developer on the hook for building the entire thing? Is the city planning to build this road regardless of whether these shopping centers come or not?
From the BJP website:
QuoteParramore Road Extension (to Youngerman Circle)
Construct a new, two-lane section with curbs, gutters, sidewalks and bike lanes on both sides.
Budget: $267,600
Looks like just enough for a preliminary study.
the 2-lane Parramore extension has been shown in the 5-year TIP as a funded project for at least 1 year...so I guess the answer to Lake's question is yes
Quote from: Charles Hunter on March 10, 2010, 09:24:37 PM
But the $4.4 "fair share" money would not exist if the developer weren't developing something. Instead of paying into a fund, and the money perhaps being spent elsewhere in the City, the developer is building part of a road (they should build all of it).
Charles, let's say the developer intends to build the shopping center or some other development sooner or later and it's really not a must to widen the road. Then they would owe the City $4.4 million for impact fees. The City could take that money and spend it as it wishes, say to solve traffic issues on existing roads.
If, instead of paying the impact fees, the developer pays for the new road, then the City gets a road it might not need for any other real purpose than further improving business at the developer's shopping centers. That's not a benefit primarily serving the community, its a benefit primarily serving the developer. And, it's the benefit that keeps on giving as the City begins the race all over again to keep up with another self-inflicted traffic headache. Meanwhile, the traffic issues elsewhere that the City could have fixed with the $4.4 million paid in cash have to be funded with other City dollars.
In my book, this all adds up to a redirection of $4.4 million in dollars due the City to the self interests of the developer, not the rest of us. I count that as City money lost.
Quote from: stjr on March 10, 2010, 09:13:17 PM
By the way, isn't Blanding a STATE road? Maybe FDOT should pay for this project. Then both counties could party! 8)[/b]
Oh yeah, that would be awesome. I do agree that more feeder roads need to be looked at by FDOT for financing. I see way too many roads with horrid intersections because the FDOT and local DOT had no discussions before hand.
QuoteIf, instead of paying the impact fees, the developer pays for the new road, then the City gets a road it might not need for any other real purpose than further improving business at the developer's shopping centers. That's not a benefit primarily serving the community, its a benefit primarily serving the developer.
But what if residents in the surrounding community choose to shop at the stores located in the shopping center. Perhaps they see a benefit in that, then it would be benefitting the community. Or were you appointed to determine what does and does not benefit the community?