QuoteJacksonville Businesses Cited for Illegal Banner Signs
Ken Amaro Taren Reed Created: 3/8/2010 6:07:46 PM Updated: 3/8/2010 6:50:42 PM
JACKSONVILLE, Fla. -- Banner signs are everywhere, from Main Street to the shopping centers and promote the respective businesses. But Jacksonville's Property Safety Division said the signs are illegal.
"There was no warning that this is against the law, " said Jack Turk, manager of the China Super Buffet restaurant on Dunn Avenue.
The business has had a large banner sign advertising its menu, until this past weekend.
"They came in and said it was an illegal sign and gave us a $250 citation," Turk said. "They could have told us first and we would have taken it down."
Turk's fine is actually $255; $250 plus a $5 court cost. But Turk said he plans to fight in court.
"I don't think they gave us fair warning," he said.
"If it is something that needs a permit, we will be more than happy to get a permit," he added.
The China Supper Buffet is just one of several businesses cited by zoning code enforcement officials. More than 150 citations were issued over the weekend.
The city ordinance allows permits for the signs. But according to the zoning code, the banners are illegal if they are tacked, tied, or pasted to a hydrant, tree, lamppost, telephone or utility pole, fence or building.
The chief of the division said because the illegal signs are temporary in nature, the officers do not have to give a warning they can cite immediately.
Turk said he's looking for his day in court. And he has a message for other business owners: "All I can say to the next person with this kind of sign is beware."
http://www.firstcoastnews.com/news/local/news-article.aspx?storyid=152937&provider=rss
What a town. What a town.
Many of us younger folks who plan on starting businesses of our own are giving serious consideration to doing so outside of Jacksonville. I just don't understand. Was this sign hurting people? Did it disturb anyone? Am I reading this right -- it's illegal to tie a sign to a building?? I can understand a fire hydrant or a utility pole, but a building?!
Don't advertise your business unless the sign fits within the confines as specified by the sign ordinance. Be careful walking on the Riverwalk or you're liable to break your neck on loose boards. Don't even think about moving or restoring an historic structure - it's cheaper and easier to knock it down and fence off the vacant lot.
Sometimes I'm embarrassed and frustrated to call this place my hometown. I don't understand the mindset. I recall vividly as a kid growing up in the St Nicholas area, a friend and I had a little Kool-Aid stand set up in my driveway. I think the two bucks we made came from our parents. Anyway, some neighbor came by and, frowning, said to us, "now, you know you're supposed to have a business license." He spoke to my friend's aunt and she made us take the stand down.
What a town.
That was an easy way to score 38 grand in a weekend.
Can you say fundraising?
What we need, during tough times, is a bit of common sense. Give the guys a warning and then impose a fine if the warning is not heeded.
Don't fine a business (which provides jobs, pays a landlord, buys from suppliers, ie. helps fuel the economy) in such drastic times. Most businesses are just trying to hold on -- the city ought to be helping them, not hurting them.
A code enforcement officer came to us at the thrift store and told us we had to remove all outdoor merchandise: clothes & etc and our outdoor sandwich board sign. We did and did not get fined. A $250.00 fine would have really hurt us.
I feel badly for this restaurant, and any business who struggles during these times against unreasonable government actions. Life is hard enough. Let's help small businesses hang on, not pull them down.
They have been doing this to individuals for a while now. On one of my properties I was cited for having an illegal fence (that was installed in the 1980s, btw). Up until a few months ago, I had no idea it was illegal since the city hadn't complained about it since I purchased the property in 2005.
No one is complaining in Clay or St. Johns county, move to another county if you want a different decision. You need more than cash and assets to run a business, you need a brain and have a plan and sometimes you need to know the law.
One guy with 1 restaurant complaining? 255 was a gift.
Quote from: mtraininjax on March 08, 2010, 10:56:29 PM
No one is complaining in Clay or St. Johns county, move to another county if you want a different decision. You need more than cash and assets to run a business, you need a brain and have a plan and sometimes you need to know the law.
One guy with 1 restaurant complaining? 255 was a gift.
What could possibly have been wrong in issuing a warning and not a citation?
Furthermore, "knowing" the law, all of the ordinances? Come on. Perhaps educating businesses about signage could have been done (ie. with a warning?) first.
How many local businesses have gone under in the past year? Why not support local businesses instead knee-capping them when lost business has hit them so hard.
Yeah, move to another county! That will show 'em all. Take your jobs, your taxes, your supply purchases elsewhere (but let us keep the $255).
Anti-stimulus package.
I can see it both ways.
Yes, in a fair world a warning for the store would be nice and appreciated.
However, there's something said for personal responsibility. If you're a restaurant owner you should darn well know what the rules on advertising and signage are.
Can't count on the "but I didn't know! but noone told me!" excuse once your an adult.
There seem to be two types of organizations out there now. The first kind sees the economic downtown and screams "OMG, I need to make sure I can get mine" In this camp are the credit card companies who (for no apparent reason) raise interest rates for...just because...reasons. JEA is in this group -- blast those who are having trouble paying their bill by demanding excessive deposits (and therefore make sure they really have a hard time paying their bill). COJ is in this group with its tax increases and multitude of "fees."
The second group finds a way to work with people, understanding that all people are having a tough time now and if a tad of compassion is displayed perhaps, invested, then the businesses may just be around for a bit longer.
These are small businesses, I'm sure, who were punished this weekend. Not the big boys who receive "bail outs". The small guys don't even receive appreciation for their continued struggles in this economy.
Keep it up and that $255 fee will turn into many more dollars of lost revenue, a real burden to the local pockets of Jacksonville.
Once again, let's put the onus on the business owner or the property owner, after all, they should and must know every single law and code that might possibly effect them someday.
Of course, and this is from personal experience, the code enforcement people seldom know the laws and codes as well as they should so how can we expect the regular citizens to know them either?
Is the purpose of the code enforcement department to penalize the citizens for not knowing everything there is about the laws and codes or is it to protect the citizens from the issues that caused the codes and laws to be written. If it is the latter, then they should be educating and warning then fining.
In fact, from listening to the Special Master, he believes the latter and feels it is his job not to always fine immediately, but to work with the citizens to help them comply. Code enforcement, by going out and fining without warning is not educating, they are fundraising. And while it may be legal, it shows a lack of understanding of how hard these current times are and a lack of common sense.
To cite or not to cite depends on your objective. If your objective is to have an illegal sign removed you just give the owner a warning end of story. If your objective is to hassle the guy or raise some money you cite. Simple.
When I saw this, I was like you have to be kidding me? wth??? The City has way more important issues to be dealing with.
Not sure anyone can expect "I didn't know I couldn't do that" to work every time. I'd like a warning every time I get pulled over by FHP but when you break the rules you pay the consequences.
Just as they say, "Ignorance of the law is no excuse."
And I personally think that those signs scattered all over the medians are hideous and need to remain outlawed.
QuoteJust as they say, "Ignorance of the law is no excuse."
And I personally think that those signs scattered all over the medians are hideous and need to remain outlawed.
Agreed. It probably would have been nice to give the guy a warning but whatever. At least the sign is down. Those things are really tacky.
Don't be so quick to move to another county. St Johns County and Clay County have sign ordinances too.
They also have tree ordinances that tell a business that if they have a qualified specimen tree they cannot cut it down without a permit. Most businesses then find they need a landscape architect or civil Engineer to do the required drawings. A Chinese restaurant to be owner cut down three large oak trees in the parking lot of the old mandarin medical center, where a inside Atlantic Storage now stands. He was cited and fined a large amount. The fines are related to DBH caliper dimensions. It was somewhere in the $50,000 range. He never opened the business. Trees are not such a problem downtown.
It might be a good idea to spend some time in the codes. This might help.
http://www.municode.com/Library/Library.aspx
QuoteWhen I saw this, I was like you have to be kidding me? wth??? The City has way more important issues to be dealing with.
Well what are the 6000 other employees in the city doing then? Answer me that one! Code enforcement has a job to do and they do it well, enforce the laws, just as the JSO enforces speed at the top of the JTB/Belfort overpass (as they did today writing tickets to motorists who claimed, "Officer, honestly, I wasn't speeding, your laser device is incorrect"), or as the RAP nazis patrol Riverside and Avondale looking for rule breakers, hey, all of the city employees have their gig and they need work.
The sign ordinances in Clay and St. Johns are no where near as restrictive as that in Jax. I've seen the same business in St. Augustine going out of business for almost an entire year. In Jax, you only have a limited amount of time to hang that banner, where as it seems perpetual in other counties.
I am challenging all Business Owners and the community to come to the Murray Hill Preservation Association Meeting at the Murray Hill Library on Edgewood Ave S at 6:30 pm. on Monday April 12.
This includes you Mayor Peyton and City Council Members.
Come and see what is happening in our community in the City of Jacksonville.
I have a business in the Murray Hill area and we are not making the revenue to keep our doors open. We are not aloud to put our signs out on the city right of way to direct traffic to Our Store.
Construction on Post Street has been going on for awhile and the traffic is being redirected through a neighborhood that takes the traffic back to Edgewood Ave S.
The City Ordinances Division came to our Store on March 18th and gave us a Citation Warning and advised that we need to take our signs and banners down and get permits. Since we have taken the signs down our business has went down 95%. Only some of our regular customers come in and hardly any new customers.
Permits and Zoning Departments giving us a run around.
If the signs on the City Right Way is a Traffic Safety Hazard to traffic then the Signs on the Buildings are too. For instance someone slowing down in traffic to look for a name of a business could cause a major accident.
We invited Mayor Peyton and Councilman Michael Corrigan out to our store and neither of them has not even attempted to come.
I have called multiple times to Councilman Michael Corrigan's office and all I get is the secretary that is doing his dirty work for him.
I also have call the Mayor's office multiple times and can't even get him to call back.
I emailed the Mayor and it took him a week to get back to me and he is referring me over to the Chief of the Municipal Code Compliance Division to investigate this issue.
Unemployment at 12.2 % in Duval County State of Florida at 9.7% nationally.
Some of the City Employees are going to loose there jobs. Businesses closing everyday. That means that the Unemployment rate is going up again.
Crime rate is going up everyday. Why is this happening? Because the politicians in Duval County is not listening to the community and doing something about it.
So everyone let's stand up for our rights. And let the Politicians here us.
If this meeting does not do this then Let's go to City Hall and Pickett them
I still think this is bullsh*t because you can't have a small sign on your own property, but other places pay people to stand on sidewalks or medians twirling signs and/or waving to traffic. Those are more of a risk IMO.
Quote from: reednavy on April 06, 2010, 09:11:26 AM
I still think this is bullsh*t because you can't have a small sign on your own property, but other places pay people to stand on sidewalks or medians twirling signs and/or waving to traffic. Those are more of a risk IMO.
The people are more of a risk I agree :/ Esspically when they get in your line of sight.
Yea especially the Dicks Wings sandwich signs. ("I prefer Dicks over Hooters) :o
Methinks Sportmotor is a "Deathrace 2000" fan (who isnt?) ;D
Quote from: reednavy on April 06, 2010, 09:11:26 AM
I still think this is bullsh*t because you can't have a small sign on your own property, but other places pay people to stand on sidewalks or medians twirling signs and/or waving to traffic. Those are more of a risk IMO.
I get your point but the sidewalk twirlers and people waving to traffic are no more hazardous than a few half-naked girls bareing their breasts outside a whorehouse. The hazard is when you go inside. The responsibility is yours, eyes straight, keep driving. ;D
But I do feel that the signs should come down. They have nothing to do with a hazard. It's all about conforming to ordinances. But a fine right off the bat? Ridiculous!
Quote from: Ernest Street on April 06, 2010, 07:54:05 PM
Yea especially the Dicks Wings sandwich signs. ("I prefer Dicks over Hooters) :o
Methinks Sportmotor is a "Deathrace 2000" fan (who isnt?) ;D
Why Ernest, how did you guess? ;D
Quote from: Cricket on April 06, 2010, 08:02:13 PM
I get your point but the sidewalk twirlers and people waving to traffic are no more hazardous than a few half-naked girls bareing their breasts outside a whorehouse. The hazard is when you go inside. The responsibility is yours, eyes straight, keep driving. ;D
But I do feel that the signs should come down. They have nothing to do with a hazard. It's all about conforming to ordinances. But a fine right off the bat? Ridiculous!
Hey, leave the hoes and whores alone!
Quote from: reednavy on April 06, 2010, 09:11:26 AM
I still think this is bullsh*t because you can't have a small sign on your own property, but other places pay people to stand on sidewalks or medians twirling signs and/or waving to traffic. Those are more of a risk IMO.
Trust me, the college kids and homeless who take the $8-10/hr to stand outside and wave those signs LOVE this ordinance :)
Quote from: reednavy on April 06, 2010, 10:06:42 PM
[Hey, leave the hoes and whores alone!
... now that is one business that ain't about to close.
I swear to you the person holding the "Dicks Wings" sign at the Lakewood location was dressed like a Redneck.
Unfortunately when my friend and I drove past him we had his 11 year old in the back seat and we had to maintain composure... :-X :D
OneStop: It would be helpful if you could lobby for a change... allowing banners or other signage and then contacting your CM and asking him to sponsor such an ordinance. We have the same problem at our thrift store on Main Street. People come in and say "we didn't know you were here!"
It is tough out there. Construction doesn't help one bit.
i went to the City Council Townhall Meeting last night at Florida State Community College at Kent Campus, which was a budget meeting. . Richard Clark president of the City Council stated to me in the lobby of the auditorium that the signage ordinances will be enforced even harder on everyone. The council will not change the ordinances unless us business owners stand up against them as a group.
NEWS CONFERENCE
APRIL 14 WEDNESDAY
TIME 11 AM
LOCATION: ONE STOP THRIFT SHOP AT 3644 POST STREET JUST EAST OF EDGEWOOD AVE S. 904-388-9199 OR MY CELL 904-562-8939
I AM CHALLENGING ALL BUSINESS OWNERS AND RESIDENTS TO ATTEND THIS CONFERENCE AND BACK US BUSINESS OWNERS UP.
:)
Questions:
1. Why are businesses closing?
2. Why is Unemployment at at 12.2 % in Duval County and 9.7 % in the State of Florida?
3. Why is the Crime Rate at it's highest in Duval County?
I invited the City Council Members to the News Conference and my feeling from them that I am a joke to them. But guess what I am very serious to keep businesses like mine open and CHANGES NEEDS TO BE MADE.
MAYOR PEYTON also is invited but I feel that he will not come either.
Come all and support your local small business owners.
IF THIS DOES NOT WORK THEN I WILL GO TO CITY HALL WITH MY SIGN AND WALK IN FRONT OF CITY HALL WHERE THE MAYORS' AND CITY COUNCIL MEMBERS OFFICES ARE.
We got signage ordinances but have to have Advertisments to get "Bus Shelters".....................something is wrong with this picture! Now we can not even mark a business location but JTA can charge someone to put their business on a bus...............ONESTOPTHRIFTSHOP.............You need to raising cain with your Council Representative, unless they are term limited, they want to be re-elected and thats your leverage! Start by walking around your neighborhood and start collecting signitures, the more the merrier! Your goal should be 100 then start banging on your rep's door!
CITY COUNCIL MEETING: TUESDAY APRIL 27, 2010 AT 5 PM
CITY HALL IN THE CITY COUNCIL CHAMBERS ON 1ST FLOOR
I WIL BE OPPOSING SIGNAGE ORDINANCE 2010-253 AND ALSO STATING MY RECOMMENDATIONS .
Why are Businesses Closing?
Why is the Unemployment Rate at it's highest?
Why is the Crime Rate at it's highest?
Why are the Permit Fee's so high?
Where are the all the Job's at, that was promised to come to Jacksonville?
All these questions needs to be answered by the City Council Members and the Mayor?
But I will tell you why:
1. Businesses can not afford the high permit fees for signage to advertise.
2. Businesses can not put there signs out to let the community know we are there.
3. Businesses closing everyday due to not able to advertise there business name.
4. Unemployment Rate is high due to the businesses are closing and can't make it here in Jacksonville due to all
the fee's that the City Council and Mayor is posing on us.
5. Crime Rate is high due to people loosing there jobs and finding other ways to survive, by committing a crime.
6. Businesses who stay open they pass these fees onto the consumer to pay them for them.
I have sent a Press Release to all Television Stations in reference to this City Council Meeting. And also I will be speaking at this meeting in reference to the Signage Ordinance 2010-253 (weekend directional signs) that will not benefit alot of businesses in this city.
I am with ONE STOP THRIFT SHOP at 3644 Post Street in the Murray Hill area on the Westside.
We have lost alot of revenue due to we can not put our signs out to direct the people to our store. Also Post Street is closed for construction for the next 4 plus months.