Inside the Jacksonville Terminal
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-1736-p1030528.JPG)
Now known as the Prime Osborn Convention Center, the Jacksonville Terminal was once the South's largest railroad station.
Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/522
i've seen union train stations in other cities turned into malls. usually touristy malls, where most of the stores sell novelty items. that might be hard to do here.
(http://photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/MYFECPRINTATJAXUNIONSTATION.jpg)
This painting hangs on my wall, the artist and I have a running joke about the little boy at the fence, he swore it was me! I think it is the artist himself, for either of us, skin color makes no difference, so the joke rolls on...
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/GatesatJaxTerminal.jpg)
In case you ever wondered how those big white blocks were used? They were part of a system of bumping posts at the end of the stub or "Head Tracks". Several were busted up in the reconstruction, I worked the better part of a day trying to get one of those huge flower pots off the top of one, all I got was a sore back... Yes, I had City permission!
Beautiful Article, I nearly grew up in that place. Even well into the 1960's over 60 trains daily came into our station. What made it so unique to the railroad World was it's breaking down and building up of nearly every train that entered it. A train of 22 passenger cars would pull in from the North or West, often while the sleeping car passengers snored, the switch crews would gingerly cut the train into sections, one for the Florida East Coast to Miami, another perhaps down the Atlantic Coast Line for Orlando and Tampa, and at least one sleeper and a few cars for the old Atlantic Coast Line to Ocala, Leesburg, Trilby and St. Petersburg. The same was true of Southern Railway trains which were sent South on the FEC or ACL. Seaboard Air Line brought theirs in over the "S" line through Springfield, and sent them out either West toward New Orleans or South to Tampa or Miami via Baldwin. But whatever happened, it happened in Jacksonville. The reverse order was in effect for Northbound trains that would be "built" here from the various sections.
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/JacksonvilleTerminalbreakingdownthe.jpg)
The part you have identified as the "Colored Waiting Room" was really the great patio shed at the rear of the Terminal. The "Colored Waiting Room" was through those doors to the right of the photo. Looking at the building from downtown. The main waiting room was in the center (the high vaulted section) The ticket counters at the North end of the Vaulted room. The "Colored Waiting Room" occupied the entire North wing and had a beautiful entry off of Bay through a rotunda of sorts. It also contained sundry services as did the main waiting room. Race is always a hot button issue, but it is interesting to note that the railroads of Jacksonville (and the South in general) were the pioneers in breaking down the barriers. Passenger Trains were a major investment, and the stupid "separate but equal" Jim Crow laws dictated that every train have a white sleeper and black sleeper, a white coach and a black coach etc... Finally the railroads took their case to the US Courts and the ICC and won approval to do away with those laws on all interstate trains. Soon the "Colored Waiting Rooms" vanished too, and the first step in the Great March had been taken. I have a photo from Jacksonville Terminal of a sign that reads "ANYONE CAN USE THIS RESTROOM REGARDLESS OF RACE OR COLOR".
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/ChampionarrivinginJax.jpg)
The South wing of the building contained woman's and men's "lounge" divided by a hallway with a stained glass arched ceiling. At the South end of the hall was a cafe that served the best breakfast in downtown. All of these let out onto the patio or concourse, at the South end of the building the concourse went down a long ramp into a pedestrian subway. This allowed passengers (Just like Los Angeles) to walk to the proper platform and go up another ramp and onto a platform between the trains. A simple solution to our future Transportation Center Rail Side... Or are we still that smart.
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/SEABOARDRAILROADEMBLEM.jpg)(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/SOUTHERNRAILWAYEMBLEM.jpg) (http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/FLORIDAEASTCOASTRAILWAYEMBLEM.jpg)
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/ATLANTICCOASTLINERAILROADEMBLEM.jpg) (http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/JACKSONVILLETRACTIONTEMPLOGO.gif)(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/RAILWAYEXPRESSAGENCYSIGN.jpg)
Oh and that little museum, well I have a marketing study done for the City Trolley Project that says just the "Trolley Museum" and "Operation" alone would bring in 500,000 persons per year... That's 6.5 Superbowls. Toss in a DC-3, 707, Scenic Cruiser and a few rail cars and the numbers would only go up. But then, who needs 6.5 Superbowls Right? SPELL IT LIGHT RAIL JACKSONVILLE!
Ocklawaha
Great post, those old pictures are amazing.
Here is the link to the Jacksonville Terminal Railroad Museum website.
http://www.jacksonvilleterminal.com/
Ock, click this link and look at the railway drawing at the top of the page. All the way to the left is the station with an outline of a "subway" beneath the tracks headed in the Brooklyn direction. Do you know what that is??
http://www.flarr.com/jtc4.htm
Yes, Jason, I have some of the signs that once hung inside that "subway". It was/is a wide (maybe 20') tunnel under all of the tracks out to the last gate. between every two tracks, there was a ramp or stairs that brought one up to platform level, often between two trains! We had 29 boarding tracks and about 15 platforms. The platforms were labeled as "gate 1 - ?" Then the tracks labeled 1 - 29. It was easy to find your train, for example gate 8 track 16. The subway had pumps (hidden) that kept the creek out of it. After the depot closed, it flooded with really nasty water and became a toxic waste dump for the homeless. I seem to remember it being done in tile with concrete floors. My understanding is that when they built the new Convention Center on the site (huge mistake) they pushed construction debris into the subway and covered it over. Bottom line, since it was built to hold up the weight of steam locomotives, I don't think it was completely caved in, in fact, it is probably still there, waiting for TC to restore it.
Ocklawaha
Remnants of it still exist. A few of these images from Mica's DMU demonstration capture pieces of it.
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/commuter_rail/dmu_demo/DSC_0058.jpg)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/commuter_rail/dmu_demo/DSC_0056.jpg)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/commuter_rail/dmu_demo/DSC_0044.jpg)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/commuter_rail/dmu_demo/DSC_0060.jpg)
You are a wealth of knowledge Ock. Thanks!
I'm going to be working on modeling the terminal as it once stood. Tracks, trains, and all. The problem is that I'm not able to get downtown much, and was wondering if you or anyone else would be willing to stop by and try to get an up close photo (multiple photos forming a panoramic would be ideal) of the fromt face and side of the building. There are a few shots floating around the net of the terminal from the skyway that gives a great view of the building as well as some frontals but all are thumbnail size and won't work. Any help woud be immensely appreciated!
This photo is a good example, but the angle cuts off much of the building and there are too many obstructions. Perhaps a shot of the main center section and then individual shots of the wings.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7b/Jacksonville_Union_Station.jpg)
In the meantime, you can also get detailed images from different angles from the property appraiser's GIS site at coj.net.
Jason the "Subway" as it was called is marked on this photo for you. If I recall, the big concrete block areas out on the Subway Platforms were not full height, but more like decorative walls around the ramps to keep people from falling down into the darn thing. The Platforms were quite wide. You might see a photo or two of wooden platforms, but these were only temporary or in use for train engine crews, at the far end as trains grew longer during the war effort. Overall, everything was concrete, marble, stone and brick.
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/JACKSONVILLETERMINALFROMAIR.jpg)
Ocklawaha
Quote from: thelakelander on August 08, 2007, 11:54:01 AM
In the meantime, you can also get detailed images from different angles from the property appraiser's GIS site at coj.net.
Thanks Lake.
QuoteJason the "Subway" as it was called is marked on this photo for you. If I recall, the big concrete block areas out on the Subway Platforms were not full height, but more like decorative walls around the ramps to keep people from falling down into the darn thing. The Platforms were quite wide. You might see a photo or two of wooden platforms, but these were only temporary or in use for train engine crews, at the far end as trains grew longer during the war effort. Overall, everything was concrete, marble, stone and brick.
I saw quite a few photos of the platforms while googling for photos of the terminal. I have wondered how they might have provided access to the other platforms. To me, a tunnel is much neater than an elevated walkway.
I spent some time exploring Washington, DC's Union Station earlier today. Its a place served by the Metro (heavy rail subway), Amtrak (Northeast Corridor), VRE (commuter rail) and MARC (Commuter Rail). It also has a multiple level shopping mall area with a food court and underground movie theater. If we can find a way to get the convention center out of our terminal, I think ours can be just as successful.
I actually think we'd trump Washington within just a few years of Amtrak Expansion, Commuter Rail, Transit Center-AKA: UNION TERMINAL, new convention center and some decent planning. DC gets the subway and Maryland or VRE commute trains in addition to Amtrak. But we'd get more Amtrak ROUTES, with the potential of more trains in the distant future...Plus Florida regional Rail (Al La Rail California), Commuter Rail, LRT-Streetcar, Skyway. Then toss in the freeway close, all new development around the station, new hotels, retail and offices, and we'd blow most of the other cities away. The shame is we have Peyton, with a distinct lack of vision...
Never have so many, owed so few, to one so little... (sorry Sir Winston)
OCKLAWAHA
Ock...I highly doubt (even in your wildest dreams) that our terminal could ever be more than Union Station in D.C.....right now, its the second largest (ridership) Amtrak station in the country.
Its a pretty busy place. Not only with Amtrak, but also the metro and two commuter rail systems. I would be happy if the Jax Terminal could attract 1/4 of the traffic generated by Union Station.
Quote from: thelakelander on January 18, 2009, 06:44:06 PM
I spent some time exploring Washington, DC's Union Station earlier today. Its a place served by the Metro (heavy rail subway), Amtrak (Northeast Corridor), VRE (commuter rail) and MARC (Commuter Rail). It also has a multiple level shopping mall area with a food court and underground movie theater. If we can find a way to get the convention center out of our terminal, I think ours can be just as successful.
I spent some time there last year. It really is a great place. I have taken an Amtrak to Union Station and then jumped on the Metro to get to my hotel.
well we could be huge... we are the only way into south florida by (amtrack) rail, no?
yes....we are the Amtrak gateway to the Florida peninsula....
But DC serves as an end point for the Acela northeast high speed line corridor...and with Philly, serves as a hub for Amtrak routes to points west (like Chicago).
We will never compete with that!
My father worked with the man who owned building before city bought it, He gave us a tour inside when it was still abandoned. Simply incredible. IMO, one of Jacksonvilles most astounding peices of architecture.
Quote from: tufsu1 on January 19, 2009, 08:04:47 AM
Ock...I highly doubt (even in your wildest dreams) that our terminal could ever be more than Union Station in D.C.....right now, its the second largest (ridership) Amtrak station in the country.
I don't. Did you know back when we were a far - far - smaller town and Washington was the nerve center of the free world - we had the busiest railroad station in the world... NOT THE USA, THE WORLD!
Philadelphia is the gateway to routes west? Not really. There is the old PENNSY to Pittsburgh and beyond. Then over in DC there was the former Chessie - aka: C&O, Baltimore and Ohio, Western Maryland, not to mention routes west via Virginia, on the old Norfolk Western and the Southern. Washington west and names like Cavilier, Powhattan Arrow, National Limited, Capitol Limited, Sportsman, Royal Blue... a bunch.
Now could WE compete with that? YES. We can send them west via:
Jacksonville - Valdosta - Macon - Atlanta - Cincinnati - where ever.
Jacksonville - Waycross - Manchester - Birmingham
Jacksonville - Waycross - Manchester - Atlanta - Nashville
Jacksonville - Waycross - Valdosta - Montgomery - Birmingham - Nashville
Jacksonville - Waycross - Columbus - Birmingham - Memphis
Jacksonville - Lake City - Valdosta - Atlanta -
Jacksonville - Tallahassee - Dothan - Montgomery - Birmingham - Cairo - Chicago
Jacksonville - Pensacola - New Orleans - Houston
Florida:
Jacksonville - Daytona - West Palm - Miami
Jacksonville - Orlando - Tampa
Jacksonville - Ocala - Tampa
Jacksonville - Ocala - Miami
Jacksonville - Orlando - Sarasota
Jacksonville - Ocala - Ft. Myers
Jacksonville - Orlando/Ocala - Tampa - St. Petersburg
Yes, when it comes to Amtrak routes, and pure passenger appeal we CAN beat Washington. Station close to equal. Weather - Jacksonville wins.
oops - left out our North-South routes. OCKLAWAHA
Ock...get real....check the Amtrak routes....trains from Philly and DC go thru Ohio on their way to Chicago...and from there to St. Louis and the west coast!
Also, Amtrak's HQ are at Union Station in DC.
As with the highway system, Jax and Florida are pretty much at the edge, not the center...so what makes you think that they would move train routes to Jax?
(http://www.daylightsales.com/images/fisher-all_roads_lead.jpg)
This hangs in the condo in Colombia, the title is "All Roads Lead To Jacksonville".
Don't have to move a thing, Jacksonville is the ONLY rail gateway to Florida and the Southern most City in the USA with direct West and West Coast (as in Oklahoma - Texas - California etc...) rail lines.
I wrote a history on Jacksonville Terminal, as well as the passenger train routes in Florida back in 1984, and am now considering a new "JACKSONVILLE" book. My statements here are not dreams or fiction but facts of history. We can regain what we once had, and with a bit of vision, we could have it in abundance. No argument here - just vision that I hope is contagious.
It was stated by the USDOT back in the early 1960's that the last remaining passenger train in the USA would run down the east coast to Florida. That the last remaining railroads in the country would radiate from Jacksonville, and that we would someday lock up the last station.
Things have certainly changed since then, and the railroads are back with a vengence. It may not be "Amtrak" in it's final form, but whatever it is, Jacksonville is positioned on the rail map to capture the most traffic South of Washington DC - a position we have nearly always held. With return of our many different Chicago-Cincinnati-Louisville-Detroit-Cleveland-St. Louis-Memphis-Kansas City-New Orleans routes, and the return of a direct Norfolk - Jax and Charlotte - Jax route. Calculate all of these end points with the more traditional Florida trains ending in New York-Boston-Washington-Atlanta-Miami-Tampa-St. Petersburg-Orlando-Sarasota/Venice-Ft. Myers/Naples. Now consider which city that EVERY SINGLE ONE of these trains MUST pass through (hint: JAX), Plus the planning going on right now in DC for the 5 trains per route "Amtrak Florida" plan, (there is NO I-75 on the rails) we'd be STUPID for not jumping on this.
TO HELL WITH THE PRIME OSBOURNE, we are talking about hundreds - maybe even thousands of high paying transportation jobs right in our downtown core. Get that damned concrete circus tent pitched someplace else besides the middle of the rail yard, for the one time busiest train station on earth. (see the Florida Boom 1920's)
Unless Jacksonville is completely blind, totally stupid, hasn't one transportation thinker in public office or led by an Orangutan Gang of Tasmanian red haired Pleistocene period Neanderthal's, this is a ripe plum - peeled and served to us on a silver platter.
I'm not promising we'll pass DC in a couple of years. All I'm saying is we have a better shot at a top rank as THE South's rail passenger transportation hub then any place else. As that corridor inches toward Jacksonville, (also in the plans), think about where America plays. It sure as hell isn't Prince Georges County Maryland! So planning on seeing Mickey? Shamu? Miami Beach? Ybor City? Space Center? or headed North for business in Philadelphia? New York? Portland? Richmond? Cleveland? Your royal coach awaits you through the tunnel to gate D - Track Number 7 - JACKSONVILLE TERMINAL.
OCKLAWAHA
Jacksonville Terminal averaged 15 MILLION passenger per year from 1919 until 1974!
Does anyone have internal pictures of the Jacksonville Terminal back in it's prime? I'm looking for pictures of the boarding area. I'm doing a model of it and I am going into great detail with it. Or Does anyone have like a floor plan of the Terminal?
You wil find copies of such things as this in several places, The Ed Ball Building downtown has the building plans for the city. The Library downtown has teh 4Th floor Photo Collection, my book "Rails 'Neath the Palms" has a chapter on Jacksonville Terminal. I also have a slightly crumpled 11x17 floor plan reduction I'd be willing to dig out and share with a fellow foamer.
In Colombia, I have some HO scale equipment, all set in Palatka - Ocala circa 1960. This was the historic Ocklawaha Valley Railroad and I modeled it in the "WHAT IF" it had survived past 1923. I have a website for it at: http://ocklawahavalley.ning.com/
If your interested in the prototype as well as photos and some hidden bits on Jacksonville Terminal, see my blog: http://jacksonvilletransit.blogspot.com/
HIGH GREENS !
OCKLAWAHA
Hey OCKLAWAHA,
Thanks for the info. Really appreciate it. Im also doing an HO scale model of Jacksonville (well little bit of downtown) because space would be a little bit of a problem :) I'm doing "what if" Jacksonville continued passenger rail and is Norfolk Southern and CSX hadn't formed. I have all my engines and they just need to be painted. They are being painted Atlantic Coast Line, Southern, Seaboard, and Florida East Coast Colors. They are modern locos but with new paint. They look really cool. Thanks for the info.
Very interesting whats the roster on the new Locomotives?
My stuff is pre-1955, EMD, ALCO, BALDWIN, FM on the connecting lines, and Pure BALDWIN on the Ocklawaha Valley, including some brass Centipedes (Hallmark) and a fleet of AS-16's and VO1000's, the only "weird engines" I have are 5 FM switchers that came from a hobby shop deal in OKC OK that I couldn't pass up. They WERE Santa Fe FM's and he couldn't give them away, so I offered $25 for the lot and he took it. BRAND NEW!
The REAL OV was one fo the rare shortlines to use new power, and was a loyal Baldwin Customer. My excuse is with the end of WWII and the surplus of FM (submarine) diesel mechanics, the OV got the lot of them for a song, and put them into service. The mechanics came from NS LEE FIELD in Green Cove Springs. (Well at least that is the story).
Are you going to stay with SCALE on the Jax Terminal? Wow, that is going to EAT a lot of space, I'd love to see the finished model. Please post a photo, or PM me here or at Jacksonville Transit Blog.
OCKLAWAHA
All of my engines are Athearn Locos. I have an EMD F59PHI, GE AC4400, GE "Dash" C44-9W, ALCO RS-3, EMD SW1000, EMD 150o, I dont know which ones Im going to paint what scheme yet. Some of the switchers will be painted in the last paint jobs that existed. I'm still looking for some passenger cars that look good but don't kill the budget. I'll post a pic when I start the project. I'm still gathering information of the Terminal.
Ock, have you ever written books? You ought to - seriously, your brain is a national treasure. You've got recollections most of us wish we could have experienced. You rock, Ock!!