Metro Jacksonville

JTA is getting stimulis money!!!

OK, I'll bite...and going to do what with it?

$9.3 million for new buses and misc. other stuff...its actually pretty impressive consiering the whole state only got $28 million

9 million is what I read on bizjournal. it says that Jax is getting the most in the state....hope they do the RIGHT thing with it.

Lake most be on vacation..the dude is slacking on the news updates lol

From the article:
http://jacksonville.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/stories/2010/03/08/daily3.html

Quote
Florida is in line to receive $27.6 million in federal stimulus dollars to improve its mass transit operations.

The U.S. Department of Transportation said Friday that the grants, part of the $7.5 billion the Federal Transit Administration has awarded since February 2009 under the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act, will fund seven projects in Florida.

The Jacksonville Transportation Authority will receive the largest grant: $9,313,745 to buy nine low-floor, 40-foot replacement buses, and for transit enhancement, facility improvements, bus shelters and shelter enhancements, rehabilitation or renovation of administration and maintenance buildings, cooling systems for buses, park-and-ride lots and miscellaneous bus support equipment.

Other Florida project that will be funded include:

    * Florida Department of Transportation: $3,063,695
    * Lake County Board of County Commissioners: $180,067
    * Lakeland Area Mass Transit District: $3,928,562
    * Martin County Board of County Commissioners: $1,199,564
    * Miami-Dade Transit Agency: $5,255,528
    * Sarasota County Transportation Authority: $4,618,693

“These funds are creating jobs now while investing in the future of our transit systems,” FTA Administrator Peter Rogoff said in a news release. “The public’s need for transit service continues to grow, and these dollars will help meet that need.”

Since President Barack Obama signed the Recovery Act a year ago, the FTA has awarded 881 grants totaling $7.5 billion. The money has supported the purchase of nearly 12,000 buses, vans and rail vehicles; the construction or renovation of more than 850 transit facilities; and the performance of more than $620 million in preventive maintenance, which has helped to save transit service and jobs, and enhance service reliability, according to an FTA news release.

Wait - the article says BUS SHELTERS??? :o

Yeah, i saw that headline on JBJ this morning. It's a sad indication of how disillusioned I've become that I didn't even for a second feel like this might be anything but money for buses. My hopes for commuter rail/streetcar/skyway extensions have plummeted over the past year. And I'm normally an unabashed optimist.

Quote from: Coolyfett on March 08, 2010, 08:52:40 PM
9 million is what I read on bizjournal. it says that Jax is getting the most in the state....hope they do the RIGHT thing with it.

HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA!!

Wow, my friend, THAT was rich!!

Even within the bus fleet, the best buses we own (actually "Coaches" not city buses) are the 3 well worn MCI's used on our long distance express routes. The JBJ article sure doesn't appear to say we're in for replacements... The service was originally planned for 6 Coaches, but in a brand new factory fresh demonstration vehicle, due to dead batteries, cut wires, flat tires, and other sabbotage by some of JTA's directors, only 3 were ever approved for order, and frankly it might be a LONG time before MCI will ever send another new demonstrator for us to try. Some good ol boy didn't get his cut and was willing to wreck the whole system or endanger lives to make his or her point. How stupid our City must have looked to those executives from MCI. Of course it was just a "bus manufacturer," so no great loss if we didn't impress them with our dirty little games right? Let's see... MCI = Motor Coach Industries, was a division of Greyhound Corporation, a division of Armor - Dial Corporation... Yeah, as in canned spam and dial soap! No big deal right? 

Proof that we can't even do buses right in Jacksonville!


(http://lh6.ggpht.com/_bQsuhPJduqQ/S5XZGMBINbI/AAAAAAAACBQ/_keSfna-DUs/s800/Eagle%2015.jpg)

(http://lh6.ggpht.com/_bQsuhPJduqQ/S5XZGaIjdUI/AAAAAAAACBY/4CC9bvS_Ndk/s400/Silver%20Eagle%20Coach.jpg)
"Hey Jax? Your ride is here!"


BTW, I've been talking us up to some old friends over at Silver Eagle Coach, with discussion now focused on bringing a sweet new Eagle down here for a demonstration... If that Eagle Ride Torsion Suspension, Lifting Tag Wheels - Behind Drive Wheels, Latest Design Full Multiplex Electronics, Disc Brakes on all wheels - Detroit Diesel, Silver Sided Stainless Steel - Mirror Finish Original Eagle Fluting & Design, doesn't light their fire, their wood is wet!! This is the same suspension used on European Luxury Cars, and all of the other brands (including MCI) use air bag suspension (which is why they tend to lean the wrong way on turning a corner).


OCKLAWAHA

Ock............JTA would have to really care what the riding public wants or says .....we can't even get shelters at the places that need them and you think they will actually buy bus's that are advanced and efficient? Come on big fella.......now if someone was treading on their turf, ohhhhh nooooo, battle royal would commence but the paying public, getting something for their tax dollars? Surely you are jesting???? (This is tongue in cheek humor Ock..........you do realize this right?)

This is great news!

However, I hope JTA uses the money wisely as well. Is this the money the we were waiting on to break ground on the transportation center? Anyone know?

no duvaldude....that was a $60+ million grant using TIGER stimulus funds....overall, there was about $50 Billion in requests submitted for $1.5 Billion in funds....TIGER projects were announced a few weeks ago and nothing in Florida was funded.

Quote from: tufsu1 on March 09, 2010, 01:08:01 PM
no duvaldude....that was a $60+ million grant using TIGER stimulus funds....overall, there was about $50 Billion in requests submitted for $1.5 Billion in funds....TIGER projects were announced a few weeks ago and nothing in Florida was funded.

OOOO Ok thanks. Well no doubt this is still good news. Atleast we get some for a change. Thats why I say we must use it wisely.  :-\

Tampa, Orlando, Fort Lauderdale or St. Petersburg, the other big cities didn't get ANY.  Poor Miami, they got some, but not as much as us.  Finally, it seems, someone is paying attention to "poor old Jacksonville."

"HU"

QuoteThe Jacksonville Transportation Authority will receive the largest grant: $9,313,745 to buy nine low-floor, 40-foot replacement buses, and for transit enhancement, facility improvements, bus shelters and shelter enhancements, rehabilitation or renovation of administration and maintenance buildings, cooling systems for buses, park-and-ride lots and miscellaneous bus support equipment

So, tell me why we are needing ads for bus shelters, again?  More lies about how the Feds wouldn't fund bus shelters?  We discussed that other communities were getting such monies.  More misinformation by JTA and its proponents for sure.  Will JTA now back off the ads-for-bus shelters plan after putting the community in a tizzy and wasting the City Council's time and political capital once again?

I hope not.  The signage can help fun the shelters we already have and the rest of the money can be used for more shelters.

I still don't get what the big deal is about bus shelter signage and no signage.  I personally don't care what's on them because I don't suddenly want a bag of Doritos just because I saw an ad for them while I was walking by a bus stop.  I've been in some very "liberal" countries and not once have I seen a shelter that could be deemed inapporopriate.  This to me is an element of what I've been calling a Mayberry Mentality, and a reason to make much ado about nothing.

I know this signage stuff has been discussed at length on another thread, so sorry about my mini-rant.  But it's a part of the idea of JTA spending this grant money on something useful, like what Jason suggested.  I just expect them to waste it because they've proven time and again that they're stupid.

Quote from: kells904 on March 09, 2010, 07:19:01 PM
I still don't get what the big deal is about bus shelter signage and no signage.  

Kells. the reason there is a full thread on bus shelter signage is the story isn't as simple as it looks.  See all sides at the thread and then draw your conclusions.

The #1 issue is that allowing signage on bus shelters may endanger our city's decades old ban on new billboards.  Other issues include the exercise of JTA's famous slight of hand with facts and figures and some conflicts of interest among decision makers and consulting attorneys (what else is new in Jax?).  As with any public issues, lot's of twists and turns.  ;)

I've read about the conflict of interest thing with the City Council member (Clark, was it?  Don't remember), and have heard about JTA "cooking the books" to push their own agenda.  Make no mistake, I don't trust those [people].  You don't hire circus monkeys to make a wedding cake.  Sure they look the part (intelligent) but they're still circus monkeys!!!  I will say, stjr, I've only recently begun to get involved with this kinda stuff--found MJ 2 months ago--so I'm still learning.

You bring up another thing though, that I've been puzzled about.  I don't really get the ban on billboards either. Really, in this economic crisis, you gotta do what you gotta do, IMO.  Billboards and bus signs seems like small potatoes to me.  If you can flip out on a Chinese restauarant for a sign on their fence, you can't regulate where some billboards are gonna go?  I don't know why you'd turn away anything that generates revenue at a time where you're clearly not making enough.  I think City Hall's BS-ing and decades-long game of circle jerk has complicated things to beyond common sense answers.  But I suppose this is why I'm not a politician.

^Kells, the billboard issue isn't one of economics, but of visual blight.  At one time, this city was plastered with billboards and blinking-light portable sign boards (thousands of them!).  (Again, please see the several threads on this.) Concerned citizens worked hard to craft a law that would gradually phase out existing boards and ban new ones while holding up to legal challenges.  As a result, our city is much more visually pleasing and positively distinctive.

Sometimes less is more and this is one of those situations.  Part of the problem is that Jax has sold itself out over and over to make a quick buck for its citizens. 

To an extreme, we could stimulate our local economy by encouraging the building of high rises next to your home and mine.  Would you contribute that to stimulate the economy?  I wouldn't.

The point is, we need to have some standards that aim high and stick to them, the mighty dollar be damned.  Our past failure to do so has served our community poorly and often cost us far more dollars than we garnered.

Quote from: stjr on March 09, 2010, 04:56:02 PM

QuoteThe Jacksonville Transportation Authority will receive the largest grant: $9,313,745 to buy nine low-floor, 40-foot replacement buses, and for transit enhancement, facility improvements, bus shelters and shelter enhancements, rehabilitation or renovation of administration and maintenance buildings, cooling systems for buses, park-and-ride lots and miscellaneous bus support equipment

So, tell me why we are needing ads for bus shelters, again?  More lies about how the Feds wouldn't fund bus shelters?  We discussed that other communities were getting such monies.  More misinformation by JTA and its proponents for sure.  Will JTA now back off the ads-for-bus shelters plan after putting the community in a tizzy and wasting the City Council's time and political capital once again?

because most of the $9 million isn't for shelters...let's just say $300k was for shelters...that would fund maybe 25...not exactly a huge improvement...and of course there's the fact that JTA didn't know they got this money until last week!

hmm...good arguments.  

while i still contend that billboards and signage could be regulated to some point that doesn't spill over into what i consider to be somewhat silly stuff like the thing concerning the dunn avenue chinese buffet sign, i don't care that much to go on about it as though i feel so passionate about it.  it is what it is, and there's bigger fish to fry.

but thank you for explaining the origin behind the sign laws, though; i didn't know anything about that.  i don't think i was born yet.

QuoteAs a result, our city is much more visually pleasing and positively distinctive.

You're joking, right?  There are still thousands of billboards up around the city.  The ban has done nothing to help clear up the visual blight around town.  The blight was predetermined years ago.  

Quote from: cline on March 09, 2010, 10:15:54 PM

QuoteAs a result, our city is much more visually pleasing and positively distinctive.

You're joking, right?  There are still thousands of billboards up around the city.    

Maybe you didn't live here before the billboard and sign laws we have now came into existence.  It's hard to appreciate just how bad it was.  Whatever you see now is a world better.  You can often appreciate the difference as well when you visit other cities without any constraints.  It's certainly obvious the difference.  For that matter, just look at some of Clay and St. Johns counties' signs/billboards.

Keep in mind also, it's a phased approach because they could not remove existing billboards without paying just compensation.  That wasn't going to happen due to the expense, so existing billboards only disappear when they are torn down and lose their grandfather rights.  Also, it seems to me, there was an exception they were forced to make for billboards on federally funded highways such as interstates.

good lord how about a decent system rather than this junk. I mean important and all, but fix the main issue-then shelters :-(

Quote from: tufsu1 on March 09, 2010, 10:10:52 PM
..and of course there's the fact that JTA didn't know they got this money until last week!

Don't you think JTA had at least an obligation to disclose they applied or were eligible for these funds?  We even  had posters (I won't call out any names here) on MJ say bus shelters were not a qualifying stimulus project.  Part of JTA's appeal appeared to be that ads were the only hope for any foreseeable funding for bus shelters.  Sounds like JTA wasn't exactly forthcoming about this regardless of the funding level.  What a surprise.

I don't care if you have the taj of bus shelters, if i cannot get where I need to go on time, safely, with a small measure of comfort and serice then why do i care about the freaking shelter?

Quote from: uptowngirl on March 09, 2010, 10:58:51 PM
I don't care if you have the taj of bus shelters, if i cannot get where I need to go on time, safely, with a small measure of comfort and serice then why do i care about the freaking shelter?

Uptowngirl, we agree.  But JTA used riders like you to pry this door open.  They made the public "feel sorry" for you baking in the sun and getting wet and cold in the rain.  It's OK with me if they cancel the project, I am not a bus rider.  Though, I would agree with some that bus shelters are integral to an overall WELL-run bus system and are a reasonable amenity to offer bus riders. (My issue is limited to ads that endanger our billboard/sign laws.)  But, then, as you say, we don't have a well run bus system.  Where do we begin? 

Quote from: stjr on March 09, 2010, 10:56:51 PM
We even had posters (I won't call out any names here) on MJ say bus shelters were not a qualifying stimulus project

for all but this last small FTA grant program, that would be a true statement.

Quote from: stjr on March 09, 2010, 04:56:02 PM

QuoteThe Jacksonville Transportation Authority will receive the largest grant: $9,313,745 to buy nine low-floor, 40-foot replacement buses, and for transit enhancement, facility improvements, bus shelters and shelter enhancements, rehabilitation or renovation of administration and maintenance buildings, cooling systems for buses, park-and-ride lots and miscellaneous bus support equipment

So, tell me why we are needing ads for bus shelters, again?  More lies about how the Feds wouldn't fund bus shelters?  We discussed that other communities were getting such monies.  More misinformation by JTA and its proponents for sure.  Will JTA now back off the ads-for-bus shelters plan after putting the community in a tizzy and wasting the City Council's time and political capital once again?

Sorry STJR, but this money is NOT enough to make the bus shelter changes that advertising could and would make for our system. Advertising would return enough that perhaps some of this money could then be used to upgrade other area's of our bus stops, such as lighting, ADA ramps, litter control, Next Bus Information, WIFI, monitors, sidewalks, etc....  Killing advertising simply slams another door on voluntary private funding of our facilities, monies that will now have to come out of the tax payers pocket.


OCKLAWAHA

^Ock, have you seen any numbers on what revenue these ads will generate?  Based on the last press I read, JTA has not yet (amazingly) disclosed to anyone what the revenue model is?  How can you be so sure that JTA, especially based on their track record, has a competent plan to accomplish your dreams here?  What if the ad revenue turns out to be minuscule after the expenses top generate it?

And, AGAIN, for me, the issue isn't ads or bus shelters per se, it's potentially forfeiting the protections of our existing sign ordinance.  Playing to the savings of taxpayer dollars that are trivial to what JTA and other governmental entities outlay every year for capital projects including waste on mismanaged projects and unneeded roads is like comparing a fly to an elephant.  The total cost of a bus shelter program, especially spread out over say 5 to 10 years (you don't expect ads to build them all instantly either, do you?) is a proverbial drop of water compared to the flood that flows through JTA's hands every year.

Wherever there is a surface, we can put an ad for $$$.  But, we don't do that everywhere.  For various reasons, we draw boundaries based on trade offs.  And, I for one draw it when it endangers our protection against the proliferation of board signs.

JTA is notorius for cooking their books and producing numbers that jive with what they view as pertinant! Some how I do not think those buffons actually know what the heck they are doing! Shelters should not be contingent upon "Adds" being plastered all over them............don't buy one bus and there is money for shelters, thats all just one less bus a year! Note we are talking about bus's.........not LR/trolley or a system such as that!

Quote from: stjr on March 10, 2010, 12:38:48 AM
^Ock, have you seen any numbers on what revenue these ads will generate?  Based on the last press I read, JTA has not yet (amazingly) disclosed to anyone what the revenue model is?  

apparently after all this, you still don't get it.

There is no revenue stream for JTA from the advertising....the deal is a private company builds the shelters and then recoups their investment through advertising.....if the business model doesn't work, then they won't build shelters and you won't have to see those "horrid ads everywhere".

and as for CS's suggestion of buying shelters instead of buses....if the buses are breaking down regularly and/or you want to expand service, then purchasing new ones makes sense....without buses, there are no riders and no need for the shelters!

Quote from: tufsu1 on March 10, 2010, 08:00:52 AM
There is no revenue stream for JTA from the advertising....the deal is a private company builds the shelters and then recoups their investment through advertising.....if the business model doesn't work, then they won't build shelters and you won't have to see those "horrid ads everywhere".

OK, Tufsu.  What type of shelters?  How many will be built and when?  How would this plan compare to one implemented by JTA without private assistance?  Is it a dramatic improvement?  Will the private company only offer to build them on the busiest of streets, or will they build them in less trafficked areas?  Who will maintain them after they are built?  If the private plan is not substantially better than the existing one JTA has followed, what next?  How many shelters should we get sooner than later with ads to justify risking our billboard ordinance?  Seen the answers to any of these questions?

from what I recall JTA installs about 20 shelters per year....the hope is that a deal with a private company would be for at least 80 per year...operations and maintenance of those shelters will be provided by the private operator.

Ads are beautiful.  Economic activity is beautiful.  Jacksonville was beautiful before the sign ordinance and will remain beautiful if it goes away.

Quote from: tufsu1 on March 10, 2010, 03:17:17 PM
from what I recall JTA installs about 20 shelters per year....the hope is that a deal with a private company would be for at least 80 per year...operations and maintenance of those shelters will be provided by the private operator.

Well, Tufsu, the only "fact" in the above is what JTA currently does (giving you credit for accurate recall) and that a private operator is to maintain the shelters it builds.  The "80" figure is someone's hope.  What is the real number going to be?  And, how about answers to the rest of my questions?  Tufsu, I don't expect you to answer because I don't think JTA has a clue itself.  Clueless, that's how they appear to operate.  ???

Quote from: urbanlibertarian on March 10, 2010, 03:59:38 PM
Economic activity is beautiful.

Even if it's criminal or at the expense of unwitting or unwilling others?

stjr wrote "Even if it's criminal or at the expense of unwitting or unwilling others?"

No, not if it involves violence or coercion.  Voluntary win-win transactions are beautiful.

Quote from: urbanlibertarian on March 10, 2010, 11:36:05 PM
stjr wrote "Even if it's criminal or at the expense of unwitting or unwilling others?"

No, not if it involves violence or coercion.  Voluntary win-win transactions are beautiful.

I realize you have a different opinion, Urban, but some may consider the forced look at an oversized sign in a public space or in place of seeing something provided by Mother Nature as "involuntary".  Thus, to them, this "economic activity" may not be so "beautiful".  ;)

"Though we travel the world over to find the beautiful,  we must carry it with us or we find it not."
Ralph Waldo Emerson

Quote from: stjr on March 10, 2010, 11:06:17 PM

Quote from: tufsu1 on March 10, 2010, 03:17:17 PM
The "80" figure is someone's hope.  What is the real number going to be?  And, how about answers to the rest of my questions?  Tufsu, I don't expect you to answer because I don't think JTA has a clue itself.  Clueless, that's how they appear to operate.  ???[/b]

maybe if people like you didn't oppose the idea on principle alone, JTA could actually put out a RFP...then they could solicit responses stating how many shelters would be installed per year!

Yeah, I was wondering why we don't already have large vehicles (trucks, buses, etc.) with diesel electric propulsion like locomotives and submarines have had for many years.

^ big oil

Urban,  A very large number of buses in Europe, especially in Germany are diesel/electric hybrids.  Siemens makes a system that puts 600volt motors on each wheel, run off of one, super-quiet diesel generator that runs at a constant speed and is super clean as well.  Because the motors are in the wheel wells, the buses are very low to the ground and easy to access.

We are so far behind in transportation technology that we begin to look like a third world country by comparison.

More details.....

QuoteJTA to get $9.3 million in federal stimulus money

By Larry Hannan

The federal stimulus bill has been good to the Jacksonville Transportation Authority.

The U.S. Department of Transportation announced this month that JTA was being awarded $9.3 million as part of a new batch of federal stimulus awards that distributed more than $600 million throughout the country.

The JTA money will go toward buying new buses, purchasing new fare collection equipment, a hybrid electric cooling system for buses, bus shelters, operating assistance for bus routes and a regional park-and-ride hub in Clay County.

The Times-Union spoke with Steve Arrington, JTA director of resource management, and Mike Miller, JTA spokesman, to get more details on how this money will be used.


How many buses will be purchased with the stimulus money?

Arrington estimates about nine buses, with about $3.1 million of the stimulus money. The 40-foot buses will look the same as the current vehicles but use a cleaner-burning diesel fuel.


What is a hybrid electric cooling system?

It's a new cooling system for buses that cools the oil in the engine and operates the air conditioning. The $1.25 million allocated for this should allow JTA to install the system in about 65 of its 185 buses.

JTA will replace the buses' electric fans with computer-controlled fans. Arrington said this will allow bus engines to run at a more even temperature, preventing wear and tear and saving money in the long term.


How will the money allocated for operating assistance to bus routes be spent?

The $1.1 million will go to bus routes from downtown to Beach Boulevard, St. Johns Town Center and the University of North Florida. Arrington said the federal rules allow some of the money to be spent on existing bus routes.


Where will the new bus shelters go?

JTA is now figuring out the best places to build the shelters, but Blanding Boulevard appears likely to get most of the money. These shelters will not have advertisements on them.


What is this regional park-and-ride in Clay County?

It is a long-term plan to have a bus station, and possibly a train station, in Clay County that will allow commuters access to downtown Jacksonville. More than $1 million is going toward the design and construction of the facility that will be off of County Road 220 adjacent to the CSX railroad tracks.

The timeline for getting the park-and-ride built is still up in the air, but design work will take more than a year, Arrington said.

larry.hannan@jacksonville.com

http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2010-03-22/story/jta-get-93-million-federal-stimulus-money

This story was scooped by almost 2 weeks...

It's going to be another feeding frenzy in the shark tank when Mike Miller tries to claim that Hybrid AC is the same as a Hybrid bus or coach.


OCKLAWAHA

Interesting, of all the items listed, only one did JTA fail to price and quantify in the answers:  Bus shelters!

Given that JTA is yet to publicize the cost, economics, or quantities of bus shelters associated with the advertising program, why should they spill the beans here?  And, this isn't a cover over?

New buses: $3.1 million for 9 buses
New hybrid electric cooling: $1.25 million for 65 buses
Bus routes: $1.1 million for  3 +/- bus routes
Clay County station: $1 million for 1 regional station
Bus shelters: $ ?? for ?? shelters

Let's see if we can help JTA out with their math shyness:

$9.3 million less $3.1 mil less $1.25 mil less $1.1 mil less $1 mil leaves about $2.85 mil, presumably for bus shelters.  How many does that buy?  At $8,000* each, that would be some 356 bus shelters!!

Now that has to make a serious dent in our community needs.  Why isn't JTA trumpeting this?  Let me guess.

----------------------------
*Average price based on the following information from the Florida Times Union:

QuoteThe cost of building a shelter is between $4,000 and $12,000, depending on the type and location.

http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2010-01-11/story/plan_to_build_bus_shelters_with_advertising_in_jacksonville_moves_forwar

But stjr.......we gotta have that "Advertising" in order to build shelters...........according to JTA and their latest numbers lotto!

well I can tell you the $9.3 million includes several "small" projects...so there isn't $2.85 million for shelters....also, you all seem to forget (or fail to mention) that the other shelters would be built and maintained by a private company in return for the right to advertise.

The current buses have electrically driven fans.  Can one of you transportation tech types tell us what the difference is with the "hybrid" cooling systems that are going to be installed?

My wife's Volkswagen Jetta TDI has electric fan, electric power steering, electric throttle, electric vacuum pump.  Does that make it a "Hybrid" too?

Quote from: tufsu1 on March 24, 2010, 08:29:03 AM
well I can tell you the $9.3 million includes several "small" projects...so there isn't $2.85 million for shelters....also, you all seem to forget (or fail to mention) that the other shelters would be built and maintained by a private company in return for the right to advertise.

Tufsu, I can only go based on the public info.  JTA gave costs and quantity numbers for every project cited but one. They have failed to release any specific numbers in the press on bus shelters and active opponents are claiming the same.  If JTA doesn't fill the vacuum, then don't be surprised when citizens become suspicious and/or do their own math.  I don't see you suggesting what the actual numbers are.

Even if the numbers are off a bit, we are still talking about hundreds of shelters.  How many more could we need after that?  Let's get those done and reevaluate. 

And, once again, you conveniently fail to mention the real issue about ads is about the potential to gut our billboard and sign laws.

Did the paper list every project the JTA was spending money on? maybe the paper only listed the largest or most appealing.

Quote from: stjr on March 24, 2010, 10:19:58 AM
Even if the numbers are off a bit, we are still talking about hundreds of shelters.  How many more could we need after that?  Let's get those done and reevaluate. 

well considering that there are over 3,000 stops and only about 300 current shelters, quite a few!

More typical Jacksonville BS...

"THE TITANIC IS SINKING! PASS THE TEASPOON!"

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: tufsu1 on March 24, 2010, 11:16:21 AM
well considering that there are over 3,000 stops ....!

Tufsu, I am sure you are aware that the 3,000 stops is an over-count that JTA failed to correct on purpose.  That is because  the 3,000 stops includes counting three stops at one spot if three buses go by there.  Like all the other specifics regarding bus shelters and the ad program, JTA seems to like that no one really knows the true number of stops.  Suffice it to say, it's clearly way below the 3,000 so let's stop using that bogus number.

And, regardless of the number of stops, it isn't realistic to put an $8,000 or whatever bus shelter at every single one of them.  Either demand or location prohibits justifying the costs.  And, it's already been indicated that ads will only appear on shelters in commercial areas, most likely with heavy traffic.  Otherwise, advertisers won't pay enough, or anything, to advertise on the shelter.

Certainly, 200 to 300 bus shelters will go a long way to meeting a realistic need for the system, especially over the near term.  Until JTA shows more transparency and these funded ones are done, talking beyond that seems less than credible.

Inaccurate or withheld numbers, misleading statements, conflicted lawyers, lack of imagination or initiative, etc. "ads" up to a backroom deal.

Quote from: fsujax on March 24, 2010, 10:22:36 AM
Did the paper list every project the JTA was spending money on? maybe the paper only listed the largest or most appealing.

FSU, JTA answered the questions.  Why don't you ask them. Better yet, ask them specifically about the bus shelters, what they cost, how many dollars go with it, and how many they are building with these funds.  While you are it, ask them about the economics of the ad program - revenues, costs, numbers of shelters, etc.

I only know what they said and they said nothing about anything else using the money.  The format of the article appeared to be giving a full accounting.  What could eat up $2.85 million when all the major projects listed were mostly less than half of that?

Quote from: stjr on March 24, 2010, 01:22:17 PM
Tufsu, I am sure you are aware that the 3,000 stops is an over-count that JTA failed to correct on purpose.  That is because  the 3,000 stops includes counting three stops at one spot if three buses go by there.  

wrong...the overstatement was when they said there were about 6,000 stops....there are approx. 3,000 unique stops in the system.

as for what the $9.3 million goes for....this was discussed at either the September or October NFTPO board meeting...I'm sure its in the minutes.

Quote from: tufsu1 on March 24, 2010, 02:20:04 PM
wrong...the overstatement was when they said there were about 6,000 stops....there are approx. 3,000 unique stops in the system.

If you say so, Tufsu.  Expect to confuse people when the numbers keep changing.  Who really can say what the final number is?  Hard to trust JTA's "numbers of the day."

Quoteas for what the $9.3 million goes for....this was discussed at either the September or October NFTPO board meeting...I'm sure its in the minutes.

Well, Tufsu, I just ran across this article in the print edition of the T-U and those clever devils printed a chart, not posted on the web site, that gives a more refined breakdown of the $2.85 million.

Let's take a look at that portion further:

Quote$36,000 - Landscaping and irrigation (that will improve the transit system!)
$400,000 - renovate Church Street property (I presume that is JTA digs at Church and Myrtle.  Bus riders will surely notice that improvement!)
$450,000 - TEMPORARY space for JTA mass transit system employees (I guess we can't wait for the new Intermodal/"JTA City" complex, huh?)
$730,000 - Fare Collection System (How is it done now?  This is a top priority?)
$800,000 - Security guards for Rosa Parks Station (at $30.00/hr [pay, benefits, training, overhead], 24 hours/day, that will cover 3 guards for about 1 year.  Maybe 2 years if hours cut.  Then, what?  What do they do now?  Is there a big problem there?  What about all the other "stations"?)
$430,000 - Finally, bus shelters! ($180,000 of this goes for solar lighting and cameras at the shelters.)  Assuming the $8,000 average is a prototypical station with these features, that means this equates to about 53 to 54 shelters.

Overall, it seems JTA thinks it has a lot more important things than shelters to spend money on.  Not sure riders and others would fully agree.  That landscaping money, alone, could buy 4.5 shelters.  $850,000 on JTA digs could build another 106 shelters.  That alone could bring the total to about 164 shelters.  Who says JTA can't find the money?  It is really a matter of priorities.