Bus Shelters: Time to Grow up Jacksonville
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/bus_shelters/shelter-home.jpg)
Our transit system is a joke. Finally JTA comes up with a plan to improve end user conditions, without taxpayer dollars and some civic groups, including DVI and JaxPride, are opposed because some shelters would include advertising space, such as this. Jacksonville isn't Mayberry anymore. It's time to grow up and here's why.
Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/531
I'm glad to see that the bus shelters are back on the hot plate. They are sorely needed.
two questions stemming from this issue would be, what happens to existing shelters? The new stops put into Springfield dont have any built in sign space. Would we be exempt, or would they try to add signage?
Secondly, will there be restrictions for ads? I don't want to see adds for Cigarettes or Colt 45 on our bus stops.
Yes, these shelters are badly needed. And I think MetroJacksonville should sponsor a design competition for the New JTA Bus shelters. Let's get the creative juices flowing and really get the community involved in a project like this. It's not just a voice that needs to be heard in City Hall. People need to see the possibilities too. And not in the context of another city and what they have done. But in Jacksonville's own context. What do you say?
Ok, why exactly are the civic groups against shelter that would have advertisements? I don't understand. ???
They don't want the advertisements or billboards on the side of the bus shelter.
Quote from: archiphreak on August 07, 2007, 08:37:42 AM
Yes, these shelters are badly needed. And I think MetroJacksonville should sponsor a design competition for the New JTA Bus shelters. Let's get the creative juices flowing and really get the community involved in a project like this. It's not just a voice that needs to be heard in City Hall. People need to see the possibilities too. And not in the context of another city and what they have done. But in Jacksonville's own context. What do you say?
If given a chance (the vote for this is coming up pretty soon), Metro Jacksonville would love to be a player in some sort of a design competition or study to show that with creative solutions, these things can be designed to be quite attractive.
Quote from: downtownparks on August 07, 2007, 08:35:32 AM
two questions stemming from this issue would be, what happens to existing shelters? The new stops put into Springfield dont have any built in sign space. Would we be exempt, or would they try to add signage?
I spoke with Mike Miller about this at the BRT/Commuter rail meeting last week. From how it was explained to me, not all stations would have these advertisements. However, the new ones with advertisments would pay for the installation of more (without advertisments) in areas like Springfield that did not want ads placed on them. In downtown, Miller also mentioned that these shelters could also have long ignored wayfaring signage included that would list various destinations and information on how the trolleys, buses and skyway would connect to them.
QuoteSecondly, will there be restrictions for ads? I don't want to see adds for Cigarettes or Colt 45 on our bus stops.
Yes, there would be restrictions. We (either JTA or the city, I'm not sure which entity) would have control over the type of ads and their design, that would be displayed. I know some in our community may view these as visual blight, but this seems to be a logical and affordable solution to make our existing transit system more end user friendly. Given the current state of our budget, we really need to dig deep and find away to make this work, before outright tossing out the middle finger.
There's additional info, including answers to some of the questions above, here (http://www.folioweekly.com/folioblog/?p=466).
Quote from: thelakelander on August 07, 2007, 10:05:20 AM
Quote from: archiphreak on August 07, 2007, 08:37:42 AM
Yes, these shelters are badly needed. And I think MetroJacksonville should sponsor a design competition for the New JTA Bus shelters. Let's get the creative juices flowing and really get the community involved in a project like this. It's not just a voice that needs to be heard in City Hall. People need to see the possibilities too. And not in the context of another city and what they have done. But in Jacksonville's own context. What do you say?
If given a chance (the vote for this is coming up pretty soon), Metro Jacksonville would love to be a player in some sort of a design competition or study to show that with creative solutions, these things can be designed to be quite attractive.
I'll throw in some 3D images of some different ideas. Anyone care to share their sketches either in the open forums or via PM?
Jason,
Ill sketch some things out tonight and try to post them tomorrow evening.
any idea if they'd all be the same design, or if they'd be flexible for different neighborhoods. something that fits in downtown might not fit in on a corner in riverside, springfield, or the southside, etc.
from what i've seen of these in other places, the advertisements are the last thing i notice. it's not like you go to a baseball game, or a football game and complain about the advertisements on the walls by the field or by the scoreboard and those advertisements are a lot more blatant than any bus shelter advertisement.
Hopefully the shelter's would be unique to each neighborhood. That is the ideal scenario. But a few designs could be chosen for mass production out of a host of entrants. That is what was done in Paris for the Metropolitan entrances. Done by Goudi, I believe. He did several designs, all unique, and they make for very interesting installations. The hope would be to do the same with Jacksonville. Perhaps even to assign individual spots that would house a winning shelter design. If any one at MetroJax wants help in setting up a competition for this let me know. I'll be glad to help, as long as that won't preclude me from entering myself. ;-)
Quote from: archiphreak on August 07, 2007, 01:45:05 PM
Jason,
Ill sketch some things out tonight and try to post them tomorrow evening.
Sounds great. I'll work on some of my own as well.
Quoteany idea if they'd all be the same design, or if they'd be flexible for different neighborhoods. something that fits in downtown might not fit in on a corner in riverside, springfield, or the southside, etc.
from what i've seen of these in other places, the advertisements are the last thing i notice. it's not like you go to a baseball game, or a football game and complain about the advertisements on the walls by the field or by the scoreboard and those advertisements are a lot more blatant than any bus shelter advertisement.
I wouldn't mind seeing 5 or so designs that could be reproduced in the areas they fit. For example, one design for each historic district (Riverside, San Marco, Springfield,) and then one suburban design and one for downtown. That way things could be streamlined and help to keep costs lower.
Here is a quick view of what I would designate as a standard suburban bus stop. Its very similar to the ones along Baymeadows. Simple, cheap, and have ample room for advertisments, wayfinding signage, and bus routes.
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/asonj23/Google%20Earth%20Snapshots/ProposedBusStop1-1.jpg)
I think that's a good start. Jacksonville is a growing city, still one of the fastest growing cities in Florida and the US, so there is room to get a little more edgy, modern, futuristic, flashy, whatever. Anyone else have something they want to throw up?
Here is something with a little flair. This would fit perfectly downtown as a bus or trolly stop.
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/asonj23/Google%20Earth%20Snapshots/ProposedBusStop2-1.jpg)
Here is a better image...
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/asonj23/Google%20Earth%20Snapshots/ProposedBusStop2-2.jpg)
nice...
Here are a few examples I came across on Google.
Logic would say we should be able to set the standards, dimensions, etc. for any type of advertisement that would go up on our streets. It's no different from a zoning ordinance that states what you can build on your property. As I said earlier, Jax is about 10 years behind most similar sized cities regarding this issue. That means there's both good and bad stories to learn from. I'd say the Pinellas image on Folio Weekly would represent the bad side of things. Here's a few good ones from a simple google search.
(http://files.turbosquid.com/Preview/Content_on_1_15_2004_11_11_00/image1.jpg6127508b-410a-4c28-a975-4078fe09c449.jpgLarge.jpg)
(http://www.city.vancouver.bc.ca/engsvcs/streets/furniture/images/thumbnail/DSCN13721.jpg)
(http://www.curbed.com/2006_12_street2.jpg)
(http://farm1.static.flickr.com/197/498800956_5e9bb097b1_o.jpg)
(http://www.archidose.org/Blog/Old/decaux.jpg)
(http://www.publicartinla.com/sculptures/sm_promenade/bus_shelter4.jpg)
Bus shelters with ads don't have to look like crap if we don't want it. We control that. Demand these types of shelters or no ads at all.
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/133088130_04cde2cb57JAXWHOREHOUSEPA.jpg)
A JTA bus? A mobile billboard? A rolling whore-house? But PLEASE, PLEASE, don't put up a small poster? Duh?
Okay y'all, mark the date on your calender... Blaylock, Miller, JTA and Company, I'm going to be NICE to JTA!
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/197667078_3101867faaJAXSPRINGFIELDB.jpg)
This is not a bad start, ever wait at a bus stop in Bakersfield, California in August?
Having traveled far and wide, there is much good about our City Bus system as it is. The whole system was redesigned after Ed Muller and myself spent several long meetings talking about the old Streetcar routes which were still being used (for buses) in the 1970-80's. We identified all major employers, schools, retail, residential and re-aligned the routes in a hub and spokes. Then wrapped the hub with cross-town cut-off buses such as University Blvd. I am sure that this process has been done again and that there is up dated information on where people are moving about the City. Armed with good route information and a new design, (recall that buses are "better" then rail because they are flexible... oops sorry, said I would be nice) the City and JTA should work to incorporate parts of the BRT concepts into EVERY stop. I would argue that this should NOT be from the CBD out, but from the audited passenger boardings system-wide, priority being given to the stops that have the heavy load factors.
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/406435122_ab2002029aORLANDOLYNXBUSI.jpg)
This small stop has "real time information" and a small seating area in Orlando.
The issue at hand is advertising at the bus stops. This is not rocket science. We have several buses in the fleet that we have allowed to be painted reminiscent of "rolling whore houses." Yet City Council is worried about a 4'x 6' poster behind a glass frame? If you really want to attack Transit Advertising, get it the hell off the total bus and back onto placards mounted on the front, back or sides. There is more then money at stake here, though I can't yet prove it, I have a theory. I would challenge the City and JTA to have an independent study done of a standard painted transit bus, and a "rolling billboard" bus, running the same route. Allow the passenger to make a choice which to ride, then tally the results. If Light Rail out performs Bus with as much as a 2/3 margin, no small part of that is the psychological aspect of a FIXED ROUTE. Standard Transit Buses have more of that appeal then a giant "TV SET" or "Whore House on Wheels." Walk though ANY URBAN City and notice the stores and walks are chock full of small posters and signs. In front of our own award winning downtown library is a big fold up sign advertising the Library and it's services! What difference is there in a sign in front of the library, (blocking the middle of the sidewalk), or one professionally designed to blend into a Transit Stop? MONEY! Neither hurt the City, neither should be banned, to do so is to flush away much needed improvements to our JTA system.
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/662580665_c94511fc8fMIAMIBUSPULLOUT.jpg)
Like JTA along Atlantic, Miami-Dade employs many pull out stops, yet like the Jacksonville proposal, they work from the inside out, so major stops such as the VA clinic have a sign in the mud and nothing else. Let's get it right the first time.
The Stops themselves, (again starting with the high traffic stops) should be made into turnouts. Bus traffic should be able to exit the mainstream of the roadway and pick up or discharge passengers. HOV lanes and signal priority could also be added giving us a deep discount version of the ridiculous BRT plan. Every bus stop should be coordinated with City Sanitation to have an attractive trash receptacle nearby. Lesser stops should be provided with a smaller "mushroom" shelter or simple covered bench. No one should have to stand in the grass (in a bed of fire-ants and trash), and every stop should have a small paved slab. EVERY ONE of these improvements could be sponsored by advertising and nearby businesses.
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/JAXPROJRealTIMEBUSORLRTARRIVALSIGN.jpg)
Wow, imagine this above your commuter stop, would this help? What about those confused T-U reporters that couldn't find the bus? Would this guide them?
Lastly, major stops on EVERY route should have REAL TIME bus arrival and departure information signs. These are tied to tracking systems aboard the buses themselves and can tell you: "The next #9 bus will arrive in 10 minutes.....Thank you for using JTA....Thirsty? The BP station offers ice cold coke for .75, come on in, it's cold inside.... The next #9 bus will..."
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/JAXPROJLRTBUSINTERCHANGEPHOTO.jpg)
Okay, so I couldn't resist just ONE photo of Transit Perfection, imagine this next to Shands, ask yourself, which way to you want to go?
It's not time for BRT (see guys I'll save my venom for another day) it is time to allow what we have to mature into the system it can be. I mean, what the hell Jacksonville, we might even get the passenger boardings of Gainesville or Clearwater next year... MIGHT! City Council, the ball is in your court.
For more on BRT, SKYWAY, LRT and JACKSONVILLE TROLLEY HISTORY please visit me at:
http://www.freewebs.com/lightrailjacksonville
Ocklawaha ::) :o ;D
Fantastic insight Ock. Those are all great ideas and its those little details that set apart a mediocre transportation system (even if it is busses) from a great one.
In the spirit of providing a little balance, here are a few reminders from Pinellas County of how hideous these things CAN look:
(http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1010/1050637187_489e43b772.jpg?v=0)
(http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1063/1050637119_c6152aaf63.jpg?v=0)
(http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1332/1050637541_8e05aa32a8.jpg?v=0)
^ Great contrast. Anything owned by ClearChannel will surely be loaded with outrageous advertisments. Panels that large become a safety issue, IMO, by reducing visibility.
The great thing is there are both good and bad examples of how to do this thing. That's one of the benefits of being in a community that's on average 10 years behind most of it's peer cities. With that said, if this is to be approved, it needs to be done with binding conditions that eliminate the possibility of the crap lining Pinellas' streets to pop up in Jax and forces shelters, more in line with the modern shelters.
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/JTAWORLDSUGLIESTBUS.jpg)
Seen this THING lately? I'd rather pass a dozen well done poster ads, in frames, and nice little shelters, then to see this sorry excuse for advertising coming at me. It has the same effect as watching television with out of town guests. Some idiot commercial comes on with a guy selling "peanut-butter proof," house siding or car dealer smashing windows, and jumping up and down on the hood... Your face turns red, your sorry your guests saw this image of our city... and make a note, you'll NEVER EVER be seen in that car lot! We have the power to control this, right now we have it bass-ackward!
Ocklawaha
i saw a bus shelter at the corner of 1st and main that looks pretty good. more springfieldish than downtowney, so it doesn't look out of place.
(http://i13.tinypic.com/4md6urb.jpg)
Here is one of my ideas for a bus canopy. There is room for signage/advertising that is out of the way, but still visible. The shelter provides just that...shelter but you don't feel like you're sitting in a box waiting to get out. You're a part of the environment that you are surrounded by, not removed from it.
How's this look Archiphreak?
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/asonj23/Google%20Earth%20Snapshots/ProposedBusStop3-1.jpg)
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/asonj23/Google%20Earth%20Snapshots/ProposedBusStop3-2.jpg)
Jason, that looks GREAT, doing away with any downward roof tilt toward the bus means happy and DRY passengers!
Like I said before, if it's a two sided station you simply employ a "Vee" shape to the roof allowing water to run off the ends of down spouts built into the support posts. The proper Transit name for that type of "Vee" roof shelter is "Butterfly Shed". BTW, posted your graphic on the SLC - LRT thread.
Ocklawaha
Jason,
That's great. I was going to play with it some more in Sketch-up myself. The signage should be an integral part of the structure though, not separated from it. Otherwise it gives an "after thought" feeling. Ocklawaha is almost right on the water shedding onto passengers. The portion of roof that tilts toward the street is so minimal that it wouldn't make that much difference one way or the other. If it's raining, they'll get wet one way or the other. There wouldn't be a sheet of water pouring down upon them, so it's a moot point. Pretty good graphic. A little simpler than my sketch, but I like it.
I realised after I created the image in Sketch-Up that i didn't quite get the exact model your sketch shows.
I'm going to be working on a few more ideas over the next couple days. I wonder if it would be a good idea to compile the images and send them over to the city?
I think it would be a great idea to work up some concepts and send them over to our council members. This seems like the perfect opportunity to show examples of how we can demand quality in our communities before they make their ultimate decision on the shelter issue.
Let's get to it!
Anyone interested in modeling their own bus stops in Sketch-Up just download it here: http://sketchup.google.com/
It very easy to learn to use and you'll have automatic full access to the "3D Warehouse" community where you'll find thousands of other models that people are sharing with the world.
If you don't care to give Sketch-up a shot then post your sketches here and I or someone else can take the ideas and turn them into 3D renderings.
Let's post everything we come up with in this thread. How much time should we alot to give everyone ample time to share before this gets sent over? 2 weeks from today sound good?
QuoteLet's post everything we come up with in this thread. How much time should we alot to give everyone ample time to share before this gets sent over? 2 weeks from today sound good?
Everything depends on when the council decides to vote on the issue. Whatever is posted here probably needs to be sent a few weeks before then.
Makes sence. That may give everyone more time to come up with ideas bacause we all know how fast the city moves...