Inside First Baptist Church Jacksonville
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/785750141_VH8A5-M.jpg)
Metro Jacksonville shares a behind-the-scenes look inside Downtown Jacksonville's largest religious institution, First Baptist Church.
Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2010-mar-inside-first-baptist-church-jacksonville
The sanctuary and other interiors are very nice. I'm still amazed that they operate debt free. It says a lot about their membership.
In the history, you left out some stuff.
http://www.bethelite.org/History.aspx
the most evil church in the world....echo world orld rld ld d
I went to church here as a teenager and all they tried to do was brainwash me into hating people for not being baptist and trying to get my divorced mother to remarry some fat baptist guy with a combover
Wow. I have been to Saddleback church outside of LA and it always amazes me how much money gets put into these facilities.
Since First Baptist Chruch takes up so much of downtown; can anyone tell me in it's defense, what contributions it makes to the community it sits in?
Quote from: Captain Zissou on March 04, 2010, 10:49:18 AM
...it always amazes me how much money gets put into these facilities.
"Then Jesus said to his disciples, 'I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.'" Matthew 19:23-24
"The wealth of the rich is their fortified city; they imagine it an unscalable wall." Proverbs 18:11
"There will always be poor people in the land. Therefore I command you to be openhanded toward your brothers and toward the poor and needy in your land." Deuteronomy 15:11
"Command those who are rich in this present world not to be arrogant nor to put their hope in wealth, which is so uncertain, but to put their hope in God, who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment. Command them to do good, to be rich in good deeds, and to be generous and willing to share. In this way they will lay up treasure for themselves as a firm foundation for the coming age, so that they may take hold of the life that is truly life." 1 Timothy 6:17-19
"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.' They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?' He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least among you, you did not do for me.'" Matthew 25:41-45
"People who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge men into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs." 1 Timothy 6:9-10
"Rich and poor have this in common: The LORD is the Maker of them all." Proverbs 22:2
"No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money." Matthew 6:24
"Do not wear yourself out to get rich; have the wisdom to show restraint. Cast but a glance at riches, and they are gone, for they will surely sprout wings and fly off to the sky like an eagle." Proverbs 23:4-5
"Wealth is worthless in the day of wrath, but righteousness delivers from death." Proverbs 11:4
"If they obey and serve him, they shall spend their days in prosperity, and their years in pleasures." Job 36:11
"For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and lose his own soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul?" Matthew 16:26
"Riches and honour are with me; yea, durable riches and righteousness. My fruit is better than gold, yea, than fine gold; and my revenue than choice silver." Proverbs 8:18, 19
"The wicked borroweth, and payeth not again: but the righteous sheweth mercy, and giveth." Psalm 37:21
"Then [Jesus] said to them, 'Watch out! Be on your guard against all kinds of greed; a man's life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions.'" Luke 12:15
"I know how to live on almost nothing or with everything. I have learned the secret of contentment in every situation, whether it be a full stomach or hunger, plenty or want; for I can do everything God asks me to with the help of Christ who gives me the strength and power." Philippians 4:12-13
dang i didn't know there was a basketball court in there. what the heck am i playing with the homies for at liberty street park when i could be playing indoors there.
Did I read the begining of this article correctly and this curch was founded on racist ideals? Doesn't sound very christian to me.
Being as how there were close to thirty years between its founding and dividing the assets between blacks and whites? No. It wasn't founded on racist principles.
the truth is out there
Quote from: Dan B on March 04, 2010, 10:35:12 AM
In the history, you left out some stuff.
http://www.bethelite.org/History.aspx
QuoteAt the close of the Civil War, an effort was made to separate the Colored and White members but an agreement could not be reached over possession of the property. The opposing fractions went to court and the decision was in favor of the Colored members since they were the majority. They retained the name of the Bethel Baptist Church and were the rightful owners of the Church Street property. A short while after the court’s decision, the Colored members sold the property on Church Street to their White brethren and purchased a lot on the northwest corner of Union and Pine Streets (now Main). In 1868, they erected a one-room frame building where the Bethel Baptist Church congregation worshipped for twenty-seven years and grew from a few souls to several hundred. Also from the separation, the White members established the Tabernacle Baptist Church, located on Church Street, which was later named First Baptist Church (Downtown).
"First Baptist Church of Jacksonville was established in July 1838. At the close of the Civil War, an effort was made to separate the Colored and White members but an agreement could not be reached over possession of the property. The opposing factions went to court and the decision was in favor of the Colored members since they were the majority. They retained the name of the Bethel Baptist Church and were the rightful owners of the Church Street property. From the separation, the White members established the Tabernacle Baptist Church, located on the corner Hogan and Church Streets, which was later named First Baptist Church (Downtown)"
LoL. they had to establish a new church because the "Colored congregation members" had been ruled in favor of in the division of assets. I still don't see the racist undertones.
Now, if you were questioning the actual need for or cause of the split, that'd be one thing, and might be worth looking into. Then again, since the split came in the immediate aftermath of the Civil War, it's not at all surprising that there was a split in the integrated congregation.
However, a recently de-churched congregation seeking to start a new church for themselves hardly qualifies as racism or having racist causes.
Stephen...you noted last year (or so) that FBC's membership had declined from 28,000 to nearly 7,000....is it now increasing again?
^ Just adding the part of the history that MetroJax's article left out. It seems to have been added now, or perhaps I missed it when I first read it.
Much-needed paradigm shift?
"Since First Baptist Chruch takes up so much of downtown; can anyone tell me in it's defense, what contributions it makes to the community it sits in?"
I would like to know that also. I see on their website giving to the Baptist ministry and missionary efforts, but what about the homeless, the helpless and the sick?
As I mentioned in another thread regarding this Church, when I was in the Navy, I once experienced financial hardship and went to First Baptist Church for help; at the time I was tithing to them, I wasn't a member mind you, but was tithing to them. When I went to the person that could help, she looked at me like I was a cancerous sore, didn't even investigate into my situation, and told me that they couldn't help with such situations. I didn't get bitter, but I did quit tithing to that Church. That was in the past.
Great Church and I attended a few times while living in Jacksonville though it was not my membership Church. In the early 70's, there were very few black members, and then into the 80's the black membership rose significantly. I think they now have a healthy black membership.
It's kind of weird how the two Lindsey's died within days of each other. I get the feeling that this was an act of God; maybe Homer was trying to keep all out power of pastoral leadership away from Doctor Vines; this is my best guess and assessment; him dying suddenly and then his Son dies suddenly right after him. No one will ever tell for sure what was going on but it appeared that there was a power tug of war going on between Homer Linsey and Jerry Vines, moreso on the side of Doctor Lindsey.
Only God Knows.
"HU"
To me it seems the church has too much property. While on the tour, it was clear the amount of space in possession was developed for a much larger congregation. Imo, the church should consider consolidating many of the programs it has spread out over 11 blocks and leasing out or selling the additional left over space.
Stephendare said: "Its a new age, I think and as the mean old quasi political guys are dying off, there seems to be a new younger generation that is more in line with the values traditionally associated with faith and spirituality."
I don't know what "values traditionally associated with faith and spirituality" means. I hope they don't throw God and the Bible out the window and embrace worldly views along with new age and worldly spiritualism practices. This would be a big mistake (my opinion and I won't elaborate on it so please don't ask).
"HU"
debt free, amazing.
When I went on the church tour, this church was the only one with armed security:
(http://i.imgur.com/PHiMS.jpg)
I've been a member of First Baptist since Nov. of 93 and have seen alot of changes over the past 16 years. Under Dr. Lindsay the church grew at a rapid pace. The annual Pastors Conference in Feb. was allways packed out to the point that they had an overflow location in the Ruth Lindsay Auditorium. Dr. Lindsay knew that he was called to be a Pastor, thats why unless he was sick he was allways in the pulpit. Every Sunday in the bulletin the amount of money given to the church in tithes and offerings was allways published. Now jump to 2010. The church is experiencing a decline in attendance and tithes and offerings. Members have no ideal how much money was given for the chest of Joash or Lottie Moon offering. Alot of things are kept secret from the members now. Most of you know about what the church did to the blogger, but some of you might not know that this Pastor was asked to be on a committee about crime but the Times-Union reported that Brunson only showed up for 2 out of the 8 meetings and just in the last 2 months the Times-Union did a series on downtown and some of the churches that are downtown and Brunson declinded to be interviewed for the story. I'm sorry to say but this preacher has not united the church but has divided it. This preacher has been out of the pulpit more in his 4 years here than both Drs. Lindsay and Vines combined during the last 16 years. Brunson has a tendency to take alot of "mission trips" overseas, this month his "mission trip" is to the Danube. Ain't GOD good.
Coredumped: I was going to mention about their security. Yes, all security persons carry handguns. I work at a hospital and even our own security can't carry any type of weapon. The number of loco folks who enter EDs at area hospitals would outnumber those entering religious establishments.
Growing up in the Protestant Bible belt of Middle GA, it always seemed that every 10 years or so a Baptist congregation will split on some issue within the church resulting in the party that opposes leaving and starting their own Baptist church in town. I swear, I see more Baptist churches in the South than any other denomination. I guess I have to give my background for making a post on this topic. I grew up First Methodist and converted to Catholicism before marriage.
Nice story. I love my church. Thanks for sharing. Don't forget the church also has a South Campus located in Ponte Vedra, so many members who use to come Downtown now go to the south campus, the church is still doing just fine. Wednesday night attendance is no where near what Sunday morning attendance is.
Quote from: stephendare on March 04, 2010, 07:12:26 PM
HU. (huh?)
Faith and Spirituality don't seem like they need an explanation, Pvt me if you must or read the link provided. (The pastor offered you a ticket to the conference, if you remember). Your fear seems a bit hysterical. It is also not showing any signs of becoming a car dealership or a tool and dye factory either.
You did post your experience in the other thread as well. It sounds like you need to come to some internal healing for the experience. Im not sure how you should do that, but perhaps contacting the pastor would be a great start.
I wasn't dissing the Church Stephendare, just reposting in case someone missed it. I did say "that was back then," which means it's all past now and I've moved on (maybe I should have explained).
Quit judging (judging Stephen); no, I don't need healing; I've forgiven but not totally forgot because if you are a christian, you will help with no strings attached. I understand the offer that was made and am appreciative of that, that one member reached out for so called "healing" on my part and gratitude on his part. That doesn't mean ALL of the Church is the same as he, but, I will treat all as though they are like him if I ever meet them.
I don't need to private you Stephen; maybe I should have explained myself better; these days faith and spirituality, in general, have a different meaning; it can mean new age, satanism, or something else. If you're talking faith and spirituality relative to God and Christ, then I agree and forgive me.
Drink a cup of coffee Stephen.
"HU"
Quote from: stephendare on March 05, 2010, 09:35:40 AM
Well considering you have taken every opportunity to regurgitate your experience with the one person, as an outsider, it certainly seems like its still bothering you.
When something still hurts, you should try and heal it man.
Well you're wrong Stephen; yeah "IT SEEMS" as you say, and seems, and seems. And it has HEALED MAN. So please sir let's drop the subject, eat your grits, and drink some coffee. I can post my feelings as often as I wish (if I don't hurt or disrespect anyone). I don't think I stepped on First Baptist's toes, and if I did, then they need healing; it was you whose toes I think I stepped on. So let's please drop this subject. Thank you MAN.
"HU"
Quote from: uga_jax on March 04, 2010, 09:11:20 PM
Coredumped: I was going to mention about their security. Yes, all security persons carry handguns.
I worked for the FBCJAX security for a while and I can tell you most assuredly they do not carry handguns, some that have had special training have defensive weapons like ASP batons or pepper spray but no one is armed. There are several JSO officers that work officially sanctioned by the Sheriffs Office and are paid by the church to provide traffic and security when the church is having services or programs and as such are armed law enforcement officers, but employees of FBCJAX are not.
SJ
By the way, I was born in Jacksonville, lived in Jacksonville as a child, lived in Jacksonville over 70% of my 20 year Naval Career, and left Jacksonville in 1995; I'm hardly an outsider. I know Jacksonville like the back of my hand (it's changed some but not by much). I still visit each year sometimes more than twice. Thanks.
"HU"
That picture wasn't a statement on the church or what they do (in fact I know little about it), but just an observation. I didn't see any other churches on the tour with security. Perhaps they need it, there are a lot of nuts (on both sides) out there:)
Quote from: thelakelander on March 04, 2010, 06:54:50 PM
To me it seems the church has too much property. While on the tour, it was clear the amount of space in possession was developed for a much larger congregation. Imo, the church should consider consolidating many of the programs it has spread out over 11 blocks and leasing out or selling the additional left over space.
Does this mean all of that property is off the tax rolls?
No wonder the city's got a budget shortfall! Practically nothing pays taxes downtown! Poor planning.
Wrong, it is my understanding the church pays property tax on all the garages and maybe even the bookstore. Yes, a bookstore that is many times overlooked!
What does the FBC do for the City of Jacksonville? I keep asking this question and have never seen a response. Do they sponsor a homeless shelter? A meals program? A free or low-cost health clinic? A jobs program? A rehab program for addictions or outreach to criminals to turn their lives around? Anything? Does anyone know?
Quote from: Doctor_K on March 05, 2010, 10:54:08 AM
No wonder the city's got a budget shortfall! Practically nothing pays taxes downtown! Poor planning.
this is true all over the state...government and non-profits (like portions of churches) don't pay property taxes...that's why Tallahassee has to charge extra for utilities to make up the shortfall of having the most valuable property (downtown area) off the tax rolls.
They help ensure souls shan't reach the fiery inferno due to premarital physical contact, dancing, or practicing any other religion.
Quote from: stephendare on March 05, 2010, 09:35:40 AM
Well considering you have taken every opportunity to regurgitate your experience with the one person, as an outsider, it certainly seems like its still bothering you.
When something still hurts, you should try and heal it man.
Are you sure you're still an outsider? It sounds like you may have drank some of their Kool-aid on your tour.
Stephen how can be so in favor of FBC and all the business they've held down and shut down across the urban core... but so against a group like SPAR that does this on a much smaller scale?
We're not talking about car washes and halfway houses either... but night life and cultural destinations that urban core so desperately needed.
Naked Poetry :o
;D
Is the poetry naked or the poet?
Stephen would be in a better position to say than I, but I agree that the 'FBC shuts down everything before it can even open' is an urban legend/myth. I have seen no evidence of it. I think it is merely a convenient excuse that needs to fall by the wayside for good.
FBC shouldn't be singled out either. ALL churches are tax-exempt, and if they do pay property taxes on the garages, that speaks well of them. Having a nice facility (within reason) shouldn't be a point of shame. In their eyes, and the eyes of many, it is the house of God.
I agree that charity begins at home, but the poor abroad are much worse off than American poor, and with fewer opportunities to change their plight.
I was borned and raised Southern Baptist but am Episcopal now, just as disclosure.
Quote from: PJparker on March 05, 2010, 12:59:43 PM
What does the FBC do for the City of Jacksonville? I keep asking this question and have never seen a response. Do they sponsor a homeless shelter? A meals program? A free or low-cost health clinic? A jobs program? A rehab program for addictions or outreach to criminals to turn their lives around? Anything? Does anyone know?
No one wants to answer this, because they want to assume that FBC does community services.
Go ask the homeless though how hard it is for them to attend service.
Stephen: I think Shwaz was refering to all the liquor licenses that FBC was rumored to have bought and the old zoning ordinances that keep establishments (i.e. Bars) within so many feet of there property.
And please tell me you weren't the naked one on stage!
Quote from: vicupstate on March 06, 2010, 08:50:12 AM
I think it is merely a convenient excuse that needs to fall by the wayside for good.
A convenient excuse for what?
Right or wrong, I think that when the public sees, by example, the lengths that FBC went to unveil and pursue the disgruntled blogger in their midst, it "enhances" the understanding by outsiders that they will pursue their interests above and beyond the pale.
I have no idea what is real and what isn't about FBC for the most part, but, if they care at all what others think (maybe they don't), they could, perhaps, be more engaging of the community at large and transparent with respect to their interests. This might help to remove the shroud of mystery that surrounds their inner workings and motivations so others don't define them and to enhance their standing with non-members.
Glad to hear the public nudity was light years ago! The physical difference between the 23 year old me and the me of today . . . Sorry I was shuttering to much to finish the sentence. :)
Ground zero for homophobia and intolerance. FBC is a shameful black eye on the city of Jacksonville.
Homophobia and intolerance are an integral part of several religious institutions, not just FBC.
Quote from: ubben on March 07, 2010, 09:40:05 PM
Ground zero for homophobia and intolerance. FBC is a shameful black eye on the city of Jacksonville.
I'm always amazed at how much the presence of a church full of worshipers disturbs some people. Most have probably never considered why in a nation of freedom of worship, a church like First Baptist would become so large in the first place... Go ahead... try it...
Need some help?
Give Up?
Because they are in tune with what the majority of worshipers of any given faith believe. Rarely if ever will one see a mega-church with narrow isolated views. This is not to say that a case may or may not be made in scriptures for labeling certain things as sin, and helping in certain ways, or eating certain foods, or other particular beliefs, but the church of hate is thankfully very small. There is also a huge gulf between refusing to accept or practice that which is percieved as sin and acceptance of those who might be trapped in it's practice. That I consider Jesus as a God of Love, was a learned concept directly from the Southern Baptist Churches.
Did you know that "Miss Nude USA" was a member of FBC JAX? After winning her title, she ran into a lot of personal problems and decided to try church as a last resort. FBC JAX was the church, under Lindsey at the time, that opened their doors and hearts for her, no strings attached.
Did you know that about 1/2 of Guthrie, territorial capitol of Oklahoma, is taken up and/or owned by the Masonic Lodge? The largest Masonic Temple in the USA is there, and it is massive. A building that started out to be the state capitol, until the state charter was stolen one night by some hard riding cowboy raiders from Oklahoma City. There are also two sprawling Masonic Home properties in Guthrie, and I hear that they even have meetings in those buildings! Family activities! Charitable events! Serve pancake suppers! Help the sick! But you know what I've never heard? I've never heard anyone in Guthrie talking about how horrible it is that such people are in their downtown!
An Ocklaism...
"Those demanding equality and acceptance in all things would be best served by employing acceptance within an equality of love in their own lives..." OCKOCKLAWAHA
Quote from: PJparker on March 05, 2010, 12:59:43 PM
What does the FBC do for the City of Jacksonville? I keep asking this question and have never seen a response. Do they sponsor a homeless shelter? A meals program? A free or low-cost health clinic? A jobs program? A rehab program for addictions or outreach to criminals to turn their lives around? Anything? Does anyone know?
That is a loaded question PJ. The church and its membership is involved in many things. I'm not a member and can't speak to what FBC as a whole is in sponsorship of, but there are gobs of ministries, programs, and charities they provide. Check out the website http://www.fbcjax.com/ and see for yourself. Click the ministries, calendar, and missions tabs and you'll see the many things the church has to offer. The missions trips sponsored by this church are huge and I've heard of LOTS of donation money being used to fund the trips and to help those far away. They also work with other churches in the area (my church included) to combine forces for ministries and missions.
Churches, especially FBC, are in buisness to help people BUT the underlying message is to spread the word of God through giving that help.
Quote from: Ocklawaha on March 08, 2010, 12:14:55 AM
I'm always amazed at how much the presence of a church full of worshipers disturbs some people.
Maybe it's because all too often those "worshipers" want to impose their views and values on everyone else. I'm amazed at how many religionists don't seem to understand that freedom of worship also includes the freedom NOT to participate in a religion.
Quotea church like First Baptist would become so large in the first place
This cuts both ways. Seeing how the membership has dropped precipitously over the last few years certainly says something about how people view their positions as well.
Quote from: Jason on March 08, 2010, 09:26:08 AM
That is a loaded question PJ. The church and its membership is involved in many things. I'm not a member and can't speak to what FBC as a whole is in sponsorship of, but there are gobs of ministries, programs, and charities they provide. Check out the website http://www.fbcjax.com/ and see for yourself. Click the ministries, calendar, and missions tabs and you'll see the many things the church has to offer. The missions trips sponsored by this church are huge and I've heard of LOTS of donation money being used to fund the trips and to help those far away. They also work with other churches in the area (my church included) to combine forces for ministries and missions.
Churches, especially FBC, are in buisness to help people BUT the underlying message is to spread the word of God through giving that help.
Jason, I have been to their website, and I did look at the ministries page. I see that they help people who are members of the church, and they travel the world to teach. I do not see any city missions.
The homepage mentions a missions trip to Argentina and they are apprently involved in Haiti disaster relief and have sent over volunteers. That's about all the info I have and would rather an actual member speak to the other church offerings to its membership and community.
The church sponsors mission trips all over the world. I know for fact because I have donated to the causes. After the Haiti earthquake donations were taken and a team is being assembled to go down to Haiti and help with the recovery. Anytime there is a mega disaster the church always takes up money and usually sends teams of people to help with any recovery efforts. The church also sends money and members to the various shelters around town to help them as well. The church has a very nice bookstore and serves lunch Tues-Thus all open to the public. There are also members who go out into the lowest income neighborhoods in Jacksonville and hold vacation Bible School and backyard Sunday School classes. The church also brings in hundreds of low income Jacksonville children at Christmas time, we serve them lunch, put on a Christmas play and then send them out with all kinds of presents, that are wrapped! I know because I volunteer at these events. It doesn't matter how much good the church does, there will always be those who look down on the church. These are only a few examples of some of what the church does for the community.
Just like the good deeds of its members are attributed to the church, so too are the actions of its members.
Quote from: fsujax on March 11, 2010, 08:39:48 AM
After the Haiti earthquake donations were taken and a team is being assembled to go down to Haiti and help with the recovery.
Sure it wasn't assembled to kidnap Haitian children?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/centralamericaandthecaribbean/haiti/7160065/US-Baptists-charged-with-kidnapping-Haitian-children.html
Well seeing that the accused kidnappers were from Idaho, I doubt FBC members had anything to do with it.
Quote from: Jason on March 11, 2010, 01:39:10 PM
Well seeing that the accused kidnappers were from Idaho...
Those are just the ones who were caught. ;)
Quote from: fsujax on March 11, 2010, 08:39:48 AM
The church sponsors mission trips all over the world. I know for fact because I have donated to the causes. After the Haiti earthquake donations were taken and a team is being assembled to go down to Haiti and help with the recovery. Anytime there is a mega disaster the church always takes up money and usually sends teams of people to help with any recovery efforts. The church also sends money and members to the various shelters around town to help them as well. The church has a very nice bookstore and serves lunch Tues-Thus all open to the public. There are also members who go out into the lowest income neighborhoods in Jacksonville and hold vacation Bible School and backyard Sunday School classes. The church also brings in hundreds of low income Jacksonville children at Christmas time, we serve them lunch, put on a Christmas play and then send them out with all kinds of presents, that are wrapped! I know because I volunteer at these events. It doesn't matter how much good the church does, there will always be those who look down on the church. These are only a few examples of some of what the church does for the community.
Thank you FSUJax. I only saw your response to my question today, so I am a bit tardy expressing my gratitude. This is the first time I ever heard that FBC helps the city shelters. Good to know.
Call him bitter, call him cynical, but darned if Watchdog doesn't run the most enlightening blog.
http://fbcjaxwatchdog.blogspot.com/
Crap like all of the backstabbing, doublespeak, and underhandedness of the First Baptist Church is part of the reason I'm a proud, cynical and jaded atheist. (Mind you, I was also raised Catholic, so that's about 90% of it right there.)
Quote from: RiversideLoki on March 31, 2010, 10:02:49 AM
Call him bitter, call him cynical, but darned if Watchdog doesn't run the most enlightening blog.
http://fbcjaxwatchdog.blogspot.com/
Crap like all of the backstabbing, doublespeak, and underhandedness of the First Baptist Church is part of the reason I'm a proud, cynical and jaded atheist. (Mind you, I was also raised Catholic, so that's about 90% of it right there.)
My name is buckethead and I'm a recovering cathaholic.
*group responds:* Welcome!
Did you give it up for Lent (permanently) like I did?
The pictures are beautiful.
I do think it's commendable that First Baptist operates debt free. As for the amount of property or money they have, that's all relative. Compared to some churches, FBC is poor; compared to others, they are rich. I don't think you can judge a church or a person by how much money they have or don't have.
I could never go to FBC due to certain beliefs they have, which I don't share. If I were to go to church at all, it would probably be Unitarian Universalist.
Quote from: PJparker on March 10, 2010, 08:56:11 PM
Quote from: Jason on March 08, 2010, 09:26:08 AM
That is a loaded question PJ. The church and its membership is involved in many things. I'm not a member and can't speak to what FBC as a whole is in sponsorship of, but there are gobs of ministries, programs, and charities they provide. Check out the website http://www.fbcjax.com/ and see for yourself. Click the ministries, calendar, and missions tabs and you'll see the many things the church has to offer. The missions trips sponsored by this church are huge and I've heard of LOTS of donation money being used to fund the trips and to help those far away. They also work with other churches in the area (my church included) to combine forces for ministries and missions.
Churches, especially FBC, are in buisness to help people BUT the underlying message is to spread the word of God through giving that help.
Jason, I have been to their website, and I did look at the ministries page. I see that they help people who are members of the church, and they travel the world to teach. I do not see any city missions.
When The City Rescue Mission was founded, that is the homeless shelter that is around the corner from the church, FBCJ was very much involved in founding of it. As a teen and college student, we would go and sing at Sunday night services that were held there, plus give a hand at dinner time on different nights. Now I can't tell you about if the church is still involved with the mission, as I now live in Georgia, but back when I was going to church there, it was very much involved with providing funds, volunteers, etc to the mission.
First Baptist is neither the abominable monster some of you think, nor the epicenter of love that they would have us believe. I went there for years, and my parents still watch the services. It HAS turned a bit of a new leaf, it is more accepting than ever. But it's still got a lot of old fashioned members and a lot of people that were raised as racists/homophobes etc. That's not the structure's reason for being though, and in all of the services and meetings and musicals I have been a part of there, never once have I heard (nor would I ever expect to hear) anyone say "homosexuals/black people are the worst kinds of sinners who are going to hell, and also let's all hate them." Just because that element is there does not leave the church nonredeemable.
I think it's a more fair point to look at their works (ye mighty and despair) and note that their programs aren't doing all they can. I would think a church that could open a private school could open a staffed homeless shelter or a halfway house. I don't care if they minister to the people they help, so long as they help. (which, by the way, is what they WILL do, no matter what you think about 'pushing your religion' on people. Christians will/should minister because it is their 'calling.')
I know this is all slightly off topic but Ive got a lot of pent up frustration both in offense from FBC and defense of FBC.
Hopefully they move out there permanently http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=549317
Doesn't sound like they're moving, just expanding. Looking back at the original tour posts, this would be a great entertainment complex. Sadly, we'll probably only see membership decline and the buildings be used less and less until funds from the baby boomers dry up. This campus is waaaay too large for them.
If membership downtown does decline and they eventually decide to part ways with a few buildings, it would seem FSCJ would be in position to create a cohesive urban traditional college campus in the core of the Northbank. So many of those buildings are designed for a cultural or educational oriented type of use.
Quote from: stephendare on February 10, 2017, 11:55:54 AM
Actually, the 'Trey' I referred to is Trey Brunson. First Baptist has suffered from the decline of Downtown as much and more as any other institution down there, btw.
I think people speak from assumptions, when they talk about the mammoth organization---- rather than any real insight most of the time.
Agreed.
Quote from: thelakelander on February 10, 2017, 12:24:58 AM
If membership downtown does decline and they eventually decide to part ways with a few buildings, it would seem FSCJ would be in position to create a cohesive urban traditional college campus in the core of the Northbank. So many of those buildings are designed for a cultural or educational oriented type of use.
I have said it before, FBC Campus would make a fantastic urban university.
Quote from: stephendare on February 10, 2017, 10:29:28 AM
...and with SSI she was able to get an apartment of her own.
Another 'taker' sucking off the government teat.
Quote from: spuwho on February 10, 2017, 12:04:31 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on February 10, 2017, 12:24:58 AM
If membership downtown does decline and they eventually decide to part ways with a few buildings, it would seem FSCJ would be in position to create a cohesive urban traditional college campus in the core of the Northbank. So many of those buildings are designed for a cultural or educational oriented type of use.
I have said it before, FBC Campus would make a fantastic urban university.
I honestly don't see a reason that those buildings during the day could not be used for classes and such even now.
Quote from: stephendare on February 10, 2017, 12:42:41 PM
Quote from: FlaBoy on February 10, 2017, 12:38:33 PM
Quote from: spuwho on February 10, 2017, 12:04:31 PM
I have said it before, FBC Campus would make a fantastic urban university.
I honestly don't see a reason that those buildings during the day could not be used for classes and such even now.
Many of them are. There is actually a pretty large academy there during the day, and the facility is in constant use.
You should check out the coffeeshop that just opened to the public in addition to the 900 seat cafeteria.
Is that the one on Laura that is kind of hidden by the block-looking exterior?
I know they have their school. I also know they have done a good job trying to allow public access to their garages as much as possible with potential liability that comes with that. They are much much better about that than other private companies/organizations in downtown.
And the wealthy are undeserving of Christs message?
What about poor Zaccheus?
And where does the money come from to support the poor and homeless? More poor and more homeless, not likely.
Jesus had a wealthy dude in his gang, he was the despised tax collector Matthew.
While I am not a proponent of prosperity gospel, I dont think that is what FBC is pursuing.
Its about supporting the ministries they have today.
I dont hav e any bones in an argument about FBC as I am not affiliated with them, but judgement based on externalities will always come up short.
I highly encourage jlmann to request a tour of the church facilities and have them explain what they do behind the scenes.
Come back here and share what you learned, I would be interested in hearing feedback.
I visited the FBC once, several years ago, to view a visiting choir, which was rumoured to be quite the thing. I stayed for about fifteen minutes, as it was crowded. I feel uncomfortable in crowds and churches, both tending to avoid the best thinking of which humankind is capable.
Some individuals convey their belief in a god by saying something like ... "You all need God". Being an atheist, I would always use the word "god" as ... "there are millions of people who apparently believe in the existence of a god of some type." When one uses the word "god" as if the entity actually exists, such as ... "And God said ... ", then one not only conveys one's belief in the existence of a god, but also, simply by the use of the phrase, a slight support is offered for the validity of the belief in the existence of a god for others, when there has been no evidence for the belief over the entire history of the world.
One can imagine the existence of anything. The sensible individual, of sober mind, will seek validation to support the reality of what is imagined. Although one's imagination can contrive possibilities ... such as the existence of gods ... the validation of the possibility endures an eternal wait. For the individuals gaining from beliefs in gods, whether they gain power, money, or spiritual comfort, there is little pressure to restrain the imagination.
Meanwhile, as has been the case through thousands of years, the individuals who believe are comforted in their belief, even though the belief is without support from the senses. What appears to be from the senses ... as preached by church leaders ... is only from the imagination ... and is without sound confirmation from any form of reality.
However, just as one measures the good or bad consequences of a fantasy film upon the viewer; that is, as to whether the film positively or negatively impacts the mind of the viewer, one can ponder the ultimate impact upon an individual or a community, as rendered from the consequences of an established belief system such as Christianity.
Mental stability and comfort to the mind is a valuable state, sought in desperation by most at some time in their lives. In desperation, many seek changes in partners, cities, homes, books, drugs, and belief systems promoting a particular religion or god. For most, these prescriptions for mental sufferings are used only until stability is assured with some finality.
I ponder on occasion the ultimate effect ... subtle even ... on our city core .. and our entire city ... our community ... as rendered by the FBC, and other churches of course. Enduring the flu this morning ... possibly affected by my consumption of a dose of NyQuill, I shall hesitate to engage the subject until I gain full sobriety. I shall return with some further thoughts. Meanwhile, does anyone have some thoughts on the subject?
A discussion about the qualities surrounding an institution such as a church or a religion can be awkward, even somewhat dangerous, as evidenced by millions killed over the centuries by religious enthusiasts. Speaking truth against established powers can be dangerous, as evidenced by the assassinations of M. L. King, Malcolm X, both Kennedy's and, further back in history, Giordano Bruno, who was burned at the stake in 1600 by the Catholics. There are hundreds more. Martin Luther, that bold soul who refused to recant, protected by strong princes, was lucky; and Galileo, who did, was shackled.
The lack of any sound evidences as to the merit of a belief system or a church can place any defenders at a loss, and thus to a kind of desperation, and to possible anger. Surely most can see the benefit of a discussion, the goal of which is only to examine .. to explore some realities ... to measure impacts on individuals and communities.
Fantasy is candy for the mind, a pleasant mental exercise. An imagination allowed to run wild will eventually settle upon necessary reality. In the end, to achieve ultimate gain for the individual and for the community, reality must be recognized and engaged ... fantasy must at some point surrender to reality.
Excesses in fantasy ... the unrestrained imagination ... might offer to the individual or the community a temporary comfort or stability, but the demands of long term stability, prosperity, and even survival, waits for the return of reality and truth.
Any system of thought ... any teachings ... such as those of a church ... that encourages the avoidance of the truths as offered by nature and the sciences, is to place the individual or the community in a position vulnerable to competition from that part of the world not shackled by the impairments of a belief system fortified by fantasy and illusion.
To teach the young, thought habits encouraging the avoidance of the truths as offered by nature and the sciences, is an offense to the intellectual development of the young. It is detrimental to the child's long term goal of achieving a balanced and superior position in society. An eloquent attorney could even argue that doing so is a subtle form of child abuse, as the church indoctrination infects the child with untruths and poor habits of thinking that will impair the mind over decades or a lifetime, if recovery isn't achieved.
If the avoidance of some truths of nature is one negative consequence of beliefs in a religion or in church attendance, what might be the advantages to the individual or the community, as they consume and endure an association with the church and its religion? Of course the advantages seem to be that of supporting a cohesive community ... of having a place via a building, and via the mind .. to meet and share a common belief ... all of which encourages stability and soothes the minds of all.
The inner peace offered by the church and its teachings, along with the social gatherings, comforts the mind at least once a week, so that when the effects wane, the next meeting arrives to bolster the spirit. This occasional dip into the world of weekly religious injections to the mind precludes the necessity to gain secular knowledge, as in history, the sciences, and all the humanities and literature -- all of which usually encourage a cultivated and balanced mind. The deluded followers of ministers and churches are happily drugged with the spirits of religion.
One might suggest that the church and its religion is needed to encourage proper behavior of the citizen. The absurdity of this notion is evidenced by all the horrendous behaviors perpetrated by followers of religions over the many centuries of their existence. All that is needed for humanity is the Golden Rule. "Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You." Nothing else matters ... nothing else is needed as a guide to behavior.
One might ponder some possible detriments to the community, and to individuals affected, when a religion and its teachings ... its thought habits ... are encouraged upon individuals perpetually, when those thought habits are in question as to their ultimate benefit to the individual and the community.
Here of course, we engage the idea of a culture, created by and perpetuated by the sum of many individuals, as they live the way of life as encouraged by large systems of indoctrination, such as religions and churches.
I shall leave the subject for a break ... inviting anyone else to enter the conversation.
I won't argue the merits of this church or any other, but there is one thing about this particular church that bothers me: They are and have been literally surrounded by homeless people for decades now. Maybe they have done a lot to help a helpless situation, but I haven't been able to find much evidence of that. They are on track to take in at least $50,000,000 this year, they pay very little in taxes, they have more buildings than they need, and they are still surrounded by hundreds of homeless people. Are they doing something about it and they just don't put it on their website? If grants were sought and fundraisers were held, a day resource center may even be a good business decision for the church.
Sorry for reopening the can of worms.