Metro Jacksonville

Time for us to stop pandering to Miami exiles and quit this economic terrorism of Cuban people.  >:(

Cuba's government is an extreme oppressor of free expression, democratic process and basic civil rights and liberties.  Blaming the US for Cuba's own oppressive government makes no sense. Perhaps it might be good for "US is bad" apologists to actually spend time in countries like Cuba to understand what goes on there.

The Cuban government would hate for us to lift the embargo.  It gives them a unifying enemy to blame for all their troubles.  The embargo keeps their kleptocracy in power.

If we had lifted the embargo twenty years ago, the Castro brothers would be long gone.  We've embargoed them for fifty years now.  If it was going to work it would have.

Quote from: rjp2008 on February 26, 2010, 09:01:23 AM
Cuba's government is an extreme oppressor of free expression, democratic process and basic civil rights and liberties.  Blaming the US for Cuba's own oppressive government makes no sense. Perhaps it might be good for "US is bad" apologists to actually spend time in countries like Cuba to understand what goes on there.

I've actually been to Cuba--and I can tell you that what we think we know in the USA is not necessarily true. I went on a three week tour of the island with a native Cuban, so I did see all the sights, sounds, and people around.

First, Cuba is not nearly as oppressive as one would think. Our media is obsessed with extolling the United States and it's "great values", etc etc. If our media spent 1% of it's time on taking more in depth looks at Cuba, instead of blindly following what the State Department says, we would know much of this information is MISinformation.

Let's take a look at some of our closest allies, and see why the argument doesn't hold water (this places are much more oppressive, and much more responsible for human rights abuses than Cuba): Central African Republic, Columbia, Pakistan, Israel, Turkmenistan, Kazakhstan, (all the Central Asian Republics, actually), Saudi Arabia, etc etc.

Second, and most importantly, the United States IS the reason that much, if not most of the problems of the Cuban people. When they had their successful revolution against big-money interests, US kingpins, and Casino owners (I went to school with Batista's son, as well)--we decided to throw an economic embargo on them to make them "feel pain" (like we did with Chile in '79).

It's very hard to run a country when (A) you have no import/export partners and (B) every move you make for a more sustainable and just life is tackled by the big imperialist nations of the world.

People need to take a much closer look at American history....We aren't the great nation we always think we are.

Funny side note: Cuba, embargo in full gear, still has one of the best healthcare systems in the world. They actually export their doctors to other countries!

Looks like their priorities are a tad better than ours...  ;)

There is no "economic terrorism"  Your term is a bumper sticker and no more.  That said... I do think its usefulness is probably past and it is time to begin talks with Cuba to normalize relations.  We have done so with China, North Korea and others...

Quote from: ben says on February 26, 2010, 09:22:35 AM
Funny side note: Cuba, embargo in full gear, still has one of the best healthcare systems in the world. They actually export their doctors to other countries!

Looks like their priorities are a tad better than ours...  ;)

In Nicaragua some of the hospitals advertise that they have Cuban trained doctors.

The embargo was worth giving a try. It however proved to not be useful enough long ago and the policy should be changed.

Quote from: BridgeTroll on February 26, 2010, 09:39:22 AM
There is no "economic terrorism"  Your term is a bumper sticker and no more.  That said... I do think its usefulness is probably past and it is time to begin talks with Cuba to normalize relations.  We have done so with China, North Korea and others...

Yes, there is such thing as economic terrorism. It's a bumper sticker only to the uninformed. Please, please, please--read when happened to Chile in 1979 at the hands of the CIA and the USA. See the following.

U.S. President Richard Nixon ordered the CIA to depose President Allende in 1970 â€" immediately after assuming office â€" with Project FUBELT. The U.S. intervention in the internal affairs of Chile was a foreign policy meant to worsen the economic crisis that President Allende faced â€" in order to propitiate a right-wing coup d’état.[31]. This is further corroborated by a document sent on September 15, 1970 by President Nixon, in which he orders CIA director Richard Helms to "Make the economy scream [in Chile to] prevent Allende from coming to power or to unseat him"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._intervention_in_Chile

Economic terrorism=free-market Capitalism. That's what it's all about. Breaking down borders, putting locals out of business, into pain. Flooding with cheap goods. Forcing others to adopt US policies.

I am quite informed and am quite familiar with the incident you cited...

The term remains a bumper sticker.  But feel free to call Kennedy and every president and member of congress since then terrorists... It is silly. ::)

I will agree that it certainly is a national policy worthy of review and probably time for negotiations to normalize relations.

Quote from: BridgeTroll on February 26, 2010, 10:17:43 AM
I am quite informed and am quite familiar with the incident you cited...

The term remains a bumper sticker.  But feel free to call Kennedy and every president and member of congress since then terrorists... It is silly. ::)

I will agree that it certainly is a national policy worthy of review and probably time for negotiations to normalize relations.

I didn't mean to call you, in particular, ignorant. Just a general statement. Most of America (misinformed) has no idea what happens, ever, outside of their own bubble.

But yeah, I do think Kennedy, and every President thereafter is a terrorist. How many children/civilians has Obama killed in Afghanistan over the past year and a half? How many children did Clinton kill in Iraq with economic sanctions (economic terrorism)...800,000 to 1.5 million. How many people did Bush kill? Over 2 million...

Let's be real here--we aren't what we say we are.

Quote from: ben says on February 26, 2010, 10:41:19 AM

Let's be real here--

Okay.  You can start whenever you'd like.

Quote from: redglittercoffin on February 26, 2010, 10:43:24 AM

Quote from: ben says on February 26, 2010, 10:41:19 AM

Let's be real here--

Okay.  You can start whenever you'd like.

I've started. Open to any real evidence to the contrary.

Ben... your outrage is misplaced.  The proper entities you should be angry with are... Castro, Saddam, Taliban/alqaida et al... Without those folks... there would not have been any "economic terrorism".

Quote from: BridgeTroll on February 26, 2010, 10:53:46 AM
Ben... your outrage is misplaced.  The proper entities you should be angry with are... Castro, Saddam, Taliban/alqaida et al... Without those folks... there would not have been any "economic terrorism".

Quite the opposite.

The Taliban/Al Qaeda were "blowback" groups created by the United States because of our policies from 1979 onward. These groups/tyrants didn't just "pop up" out of nowhere--they were responses to our policies.

Looks like you've been reading too much one-sided history.

The quickest way to end the regime in Cuba is to open the doors wide open, and let the cash and tourism flow in.

Your right ben... we created those entities... so we could do some economic terrorism and kill babies.

QuoteLooks like you've been reading too much one-sided history.

Right back at ya baybee... ;)

Quote from: BridgeTroll on February 26, 2010, 09:39:22 AM
There is no "economic terrorism"  Your term is a bumper sticker and no more.  

Bumper stick or not, terrorism is what it is. We use the word, "terrorism" self-servingly. When other nations resist us, we use certain words to describe them like "terrorists" and "insurgents". We use euphemisms like  "regime change" and "liberation" to describe our own terroristic actions. If the denial of human rights is the reason for the Cuban embargo, let's be consistent and embargo every other nation that denies human rights to their people.

"First, Cuba is not nearly as oppressive as one would think."

Both the US and the European Union understand that basic human rights, political freedom, and essential private property protections and civil liberties are severely restricted in Cuba by a one-party system socialist government. There is no question on that.

But I guess some people want government to think for them, control their lives, throw them in prison when they disagree...etc. Looks like things are moving that way in this country unfortunately too...


I suppose his next defense will be supporting how humane and free things are in NK, Iran and Venezuela.

Our embargo of Cuba certainly does not create "terror".  Suicide bombers create terror, suicidal pilots flying into buildings create terror.  

Not being able to sell bananas in the U.S. is an economic embargo.

You are right... Terrorism is what it is... an economic embargo... is what it is also...

Quote from: BridgeTroll on February 26, 2010, 12:01:56 PM

You are right... Terrorism is what it is... an economic embargo... is what it is also...

You made my point.

When we are directly responsible for wholesale anxiety in a country by depriving them of the same trade rights that we extend to other countries, notwithstanding their own human rights records, that is economic terrorism. Take off your stars and stripes glasses for one minute and see that it is time that we acknowledge like Canada and the EU that our embargo is serving no purpose but showing us to be the big bad bully that we are.

Quote from: Dan B on February 26, 2010, 11:11:42 AM..........The quickest way to end the regime in Cuba is to open the doors wide open, and let the cash and tourism flow in.......

My Cuban connection agrees with you.

He also says that the majority of Cubans today have grown up under Castro and don't know any different. If you are well placed you have stuff from other countries. South American and European countries don't have trade or travel embargos. They come and visit regularly.

He has relatives there that report restrictions on internet usage and any outside communications. If you get outside of the tourist areas you find the poverty. He says it is the middle class and below that are hurt by the embargo. It is time to end it.

The problem is the old timers in South Florida have some political clout and don't want it. There are some radio stations down there that campaign against Castro's Cuba every day.

Hey Cricket... I think I have said a number of times that the embargo has outlived its usefulness and we should negotiate a return to normal relations.  Please go back and carefully read my posts... :)

QuoteWhen we are directly responsible for wholesale anxiety

:D :D  Holy smokes... you have redefined terrorism to include "wholesale anxiety"?  Do you hear yourself? :D :D

Cuba is responsible for it's own actions! It has chosen state-controlled socialism, let it reap what it has sown. They chose to ally with the Soviets, piss us off, and continue to maintain a freedom-despising socialist state.

Socialists like the poster here now wants to bully the US to ignore the crap Cuba continues to put it's own people through. We are under no obligation to trade with them. Their misery is their own fault.

The sad thing is - if Raoul would open that country up to political freedom, allow other points of view and participation besides his own thugs, we would be right there offering concessions in return. But they won't, because control (socialism) hates free democracy.

For those interested in facts rather than emotional hyperbole...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_embargo_against_Cuba

QuoteThe United States embargo against Cuba (described in Cuba as el bloqueo, Spanish for "the blockade") is a commercial, economic, and financial embargo partially imposed on Cuba in October 1960. It was enacted after Cuba expropriated the properties of United States citizens and corporations and it was strengthened to a near-total embargo in February 1962.

Entitled the Cuban Democracy Act, the embargo was codified into law in 1992 with the stated purpose of maintaining sanctions on the Castro regime so long as it continues to refuse to move toward "democratization and greater respect for human rights".[1] In 1996, Congress passed the Helms-Burton Act, which further restricted United States citizens from doing business in or with Cuba, and mandated restrictions on giving public or private assistance to any successor regime in Havana unless and until certain claims against the Cuban government are met. In 1999, U.S. President Bill Clinton expanded the trade embargo even further by ending the practice of foreign subsidiaries of U.S. companies trading with Cuba. In 2000, Clinton authorized the sale of certain "humanitarian" US products to Cuba.

It has been advocated that the pro-embargo Cuban-American exiles, whose votes are crucial in Florida, have swayed many politicians to also adopt similar views.[2] The Cuban-American views have been opposed by business leaders whose financial interests prompt them to argue that trading freely would be good for Cuba and the United States.[3]

At present, the embargo, which limits American businesses from conducting business with Cuban interests, is still in effect and is the most enduring trade embargo in modern history. Despite the existence of the embargo, the United States is the fifth largest exporter to Cuba (6.6% of Cuba's imports are from the US).[4] However, Cuba must pay cash for all imports, as credit is not allowed.[5]

Quote from: BridgeTroll on February 26, 2010, 01:20:43 PM

QuoteWhen we are directly responsible for wholesale anxiety

:D :D  Holy smokes... you have redefined terrorism to include "wholesale anxiety"?  Do you hear yourself? :D :D

Look it up yourself, my learned friend: 

QuoteQuality of causing terror: an instance or cause of intense fear or anxiety 

The ignorance is frightening. Anything the US State Department/US media throws at you, you buy without thinking twice.

Quote from: rjp2008 on February 26, 2010, 01:30:29 PM
Cuba is responsible for it's own actions! It has chosen state-controlled socialism, let it reap what it has sown. They chose to ally with the Soviets, piss us off, and continue to maintain a freedom-despising socialist state.

Socialists like the poster here now wants to bully the US to ignore the crap Cuba continues to put it's own people through. We are under no obligation to trade with them. Their misery is their own fault.

The sad thing is - if Raoul would open that country up to political freedom, allow other points of view and participation besides his own thugs, we would be right there offering concessions in return. But they won't, because control (socialism) hates free democracy.

You sound like George Bush...

We are allies with the EU, yet all those countries are state-run socialist countries...

and by the way, we are also allies with Russia, too...

Quote from: BridgeTroll on February 26, 2010, 11:54:51 AM
Your right ben... we created those entities... so we could do some economic terrorism and kill babies.

QuoteLooks like you've been reading too much one-sided history.

Right back at ya baybee... ;)

Do you know anything about the history of Al Qaeda/Taliban? Clearly not, or you would know that we funded them, groomed them, gave them weapons, had them fight a proxy war for us, etc...

Click the following link to see the Taliban in the Oval Office....

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://whitenoiseinsanity.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/reaganmeetstalibanwhitehouse.jpg&imgrefurl=http://whitenoiseinsanity.com/2009/04/20/remember-when-reagan-met-with-taliban-leaders-in-the-white-house/&usg=__A1wFuzPl0s31lkGdG_newV4WgkE=&h=499&w=750&sz=68&hl=en&start=1&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=nU2_6IBUFwS09M:&tbnh=94&tbnw=141&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dreagan%2Bwith%2Bthe%2Btaliban%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dsafari%26sa%3DN%26rls%3Den%26tbs%3Disch:1

 :D  Right... Cricket... OK... you go right ahead and call it whatever you want... :D  embargo = terrorism  :D tomato/tomahto... potato/potahto  same thing.

Ben... Well aware of where the Taliban and al qaida came from.  I know the history and better yet... Why these things happened.  I also am fully cognizant of the context of the times... when they happened.  Something you apparently have only recently learned on the internet.

End the embargo.  They almost never work and this one certainly hasn't.  Cuba will gradually become a lot more like Russia, China and Viet Nam and a lot less like North Korea.

Quote from: ben says on February 26, 2010, 11:10:44 AM

Quote from: BridgeTroll on February 26, 2010, 10:53:46 AM
Ben... your outrage is misplaced.  The proper entities you should be angry with are... Castro, Saddam, Taliban/alqaida et al... Without those folks... there would not have been any "economic terrorism".

Quite the opposite.

The Taliban/Al Qaeda were "blowback" groups created by the United States because of our policies from 1979 onward. These groups/tyrants didn't just "pop up" out of nowhere--they were responses to our policies.

Looks like you've been reading too much one-sided history.

The lack of historical knowledge is frightening almost as bad as the made up knowledge of the revisionist historians.

The Godfather of the mid eastern terrorist community is just 90 miles off the Florida coast.  Including a good deal of evidence that leads a 911 researcher straight back to Cuba. In his tirade during the so called Tri Continental conference" Fidel and Che, promised to destroy all of their imperialist enemy's, to never give them a moments peace or tranquility, bringing death at his work, home and places of recreation. Who is this imperialist enemy they asked? The great enemy of all of mankind, The United States of America!  Who was at the long ago seminar on hate? Yasir Arafat, and Ilich Sanchez, aka: Carlos the Jackal, most wanted terrorist in the world for decades. Sanchez enrolled in Che's school of terror in Havana in 1959, and at the Conference they had a hug fest with dozens of other infamous names. The conference ended in April of 1967. No doubt the discussion included such subjects as their two failed attempts to deliver on their promises, as the FBI uncovered two separate plots, ending one just an hour before execution and the other thanks to Canadian Mounted Police following the poor girl that was being used to transport the explosives. The Black Panthers were recruited to blow up most of the major monuments in Washington DC. The next outrage was a plot to blow up Grand Central Terminal, Bloomingdale's, Macy's and Gimble's department stores in New york City (I think this was the 1962 plot?) it was set to roll on the day after Thanksgiving, for maximum effect with women and children. 500 Kilo's of TNT were moved back out of the city.

In 2002, Al-Hayat the French Arabic newspaper interview the Jackal in prison, he told them "I'm proud of the path Bin Laden chose, he chose a trail that I myself had blazed... In March 2004, 10 locations in the Madrid Metro were blow up, killing or wounding 2,000 innocent people and who took credit for the event? The Spanish Al-Qaeda coalition... The weapon, 100 pounds of TNT, meaning the New York bombings were to be 5 times stronger... Take that 911 plane right back to 1959 if you wish, because the dots are easy to connect if you have just a modicum of historical sensitivity. Who would have thunk Che, Fidel, Bin Laden, Arafat and the Jackal all from the same kindergarten. The freedoms they have brought Cuba is something to behold, as long as your not one of the 77,000 blacks, homosexuals and hippies rounded up by the secret police and executed.

Yes, cut the embargo, because perhaps we can slip someone in there that will take out these criminals. We hunted down various gangsters, Nazi's and Fascist's, and presented them with death penalties, but we have grown into such a watered down "correct" society that we don't want to read the historical facts, so we just rewrite them! We want to buy sugar and socks from these hyena's.

America (or Colombia for me) aren't perfect, but as democratic, representative republics they are a damn sight better then the alternative.


OCKLAWAHA

Thanks, Ock.  If it wasn't for the better (slightly) sentence structure, it was beginning to look as if Bos had created a sock puppet.

I read the headline of Ock's piece and saw the author was Abbie Hoffman and I read no further. Plus the bold type was blinding.

Forget all this historical mumbo jumbo. Even forget the moral reasons for closing the embargo. Just think of it in pragmatic terms. The embargo is not serving its intended purpose. Castro has defeated (survived) every US president since JFK. We are losing an export potential for hard goods, however meagre. We could benefit from Cuba's tremendous doctors and medical resources.

I have respect for Ock's "Ferroequinology", as he calls it. On this subject, however, I think he ran off the rails.

Quote from: stephendare on February 26, 2010, 05:51:25 PM
Meh.

Middle Eastern Terrorism is basically a kind of pentecostal Muslim fanaticalism.  Cuba doesnt have a damn thing to do with it.

Castro is apparently an asshole, but werent we supposed to be against Castro because he was allied with the soviets?

They are gone, and now the Maximum Leader is about to finally drop dead in the most cunning Assassination Plot ever hatched by our clownish CIA:  The Plot to Kill Fidel Castro with extreme, morbid old age.

Im with Ben on this one.  And I think we would have done a lot better to leave international policy to the State Department instead of discovering the joys of unintended blowback that came out of skullduggery in the Century of Communication.

Perhaps this kind of stuff went over well before the advance of electronic surveillance and telephones, but this inept cloak and dagger dastardliness has come back to bite our government repeatedly.

We armed and trained Mr. Tim Osment (Usama Bin Laden's CIA code name during the Afghan Soviet Conflict, and we armed and trained Mr. Saddaam Hussein back when we were enemies with Iran.

That worked out well didnt it?

End the silly embargo, and this time I bet the international business of Cuba becomes Medicine, instead of the traditional gambling, prositution and slavery.

;D

Not to patronize anyone in particular, but as a serious recommendation, I'd check out these three books by a former State Department member, Chalmers Johnson.

The Blowback Trilogy:

http://www.amazon.com/Blowback-Second-Consequences-American-Project/dp/0805075593/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1267231876&sr=8-2

http://www.amazon.com/Sorrows-Empire-Militarism-Republic-American/dp/0805077979/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1267231876&sr=8-3

http://www.amazon.com/Nemesis-American-Republic-Empire-Project/dp/0805087281/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1267231876&sr=8-1

AND, I can't help but throwing this in there...the history of the United States + it's foreign policy from the eyes of the people, i.e. not the elite:

http://www.amazon.com/Peoples-History-United-States-Present/dp/0060838655/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1267231942&sr=1-1

1492-Present (and yes, it covers Cuba...I think from 1800 onwards)

Quote from: Cricket on February 26, 2010, 07:02:08 PM
I read the headline of Ock's piece and saw the author was Abbie Hoffman and I read no further. Plus the bold type was blinding.

Forget all this historical mumbo jumbo. Even forget the moral reasons for closing the embargo. Just think of it in pragmatic terms. The embargo is not serving its intended purpose. Castro has defeated (survived) every US president since JFK. We are losing an export potential for hard goods, however meagre. We could benefit from Cuba's tremendous doctors and medical resources.

I have respect for Ock's "Ferroequinology", as he calls it. On this subject, however, I think he ran off the rails.

Sorry Cricket, but the bold print and purple name are unregistered trademarks of my Thermian Kingdom (just beyond the Klatu Nebula). Well that and the fact I'm half blind --- on a good day!

What part of the Castro story do you not agree with? Abbie only wrote the part about the Penis! All of the rest is simply recording of things as they happened... While I wasn't in Havana, I was in Jax at that time, and have lived most of my last 10 years or so in the Latin Speaking world, so Ben is right, they do have a different view of things then we do. Our flirtation with Castro, and thugs like him, Tatoo's of Che, Books, Movies, Hero Worship, is misguided at best, and a death wish at worst.


OCKLAWAHA

Any reason we shouldn't trade with them or travel there?

Ock, I meant no disrespect by not giving alot of weight to your historical perspectives.

All I am saying is that we sometimes forget that history is written by historians who are people like you and me with prejudices, political leanings and blind affinities to one country or another.

Che and Fidel are as much beloved in Cuba and in much of Latin America as Reagan and JFK are idolized here in the US.

The people we call thugs are heroes to them and our heroes are thugs to them.

For every one evil deed that we accuse them of committing, they can point out at least in their own minds a corresponding evil act that we committed somewhere in that long history between our two countries. 

So we get bogged down with historical tit for tat and nothing changes. That is the reason I say forget about all the mumbo jumbo about history. Let's move on. Scrap this dumb !@#$%^&* embargo.

I do think its time to normalize relationships with Cuba. We live in a different world than we did in the 60's. Russia is no longer a threat to north America via Cuba. The real reason the sanction where put in place to begin with.

Ben you are talking to bunch of brainwashed "patriots" who don't see ANYTHING wrong with US does around world.
They are not that different from Nazis or Serbs,while their" government is killing other people and wage wars they simply stand at side,watch and cheer and even think they are right.

You tell them about million people killed in Iraq and they say "Oh well" or try to come up with good excuse why that doesnt matter.
Just like Serbs under Milosevic who always blame everyone else and dont see anything wrong with them.even that they fought war with 5 different nations/entities in one decade they still dont see anything wrong.
They also call that "patriotism" just like righ-wing Americans here.
When Serbs get attacked,even if it is something small, they cry and whine but when they attack others and kill without mercy then "its ok and they deserved it".
Primitive human mentality of defending your "own kind" no matter what,wrong or right.
Unless you change their mentality not much will change,they wil keep coming up with new excuse for every new war and conflict.

I do know for a fact that the people of Cuba are repressed by there government. I have been to Cuba 7 times, twice to repatriate Cubans found at sea. One thing that sticks in my mind is they were forced to wash there feet prior to stepping on Cuban soil to remove the American soil from them. But its fine for Americans to visit there state built resort area and walk around in there duty American shoes

QuoteLet's move on. Scrap this dumb !@#$%^&* embargo.

I dont disagree... And thank you for calling it what it is... An embargo... :)

Quote from: BridgeTroll on February 27, 2010, 08:02:43 AM

QuoteLet's move on. Scrap this dumb !@#$%^&* embargo.

I dont disagree... And thank you for calling it what it is... An embargo... :)

x2

QuoteWhy did he put out an order to arrest ALL hippies and all homosexuals? anyone that listened to rock music was reeducated.

Che never had to hide how he really felt about us in this country. He publically stated that you and I and every other American Citizen, were "hyena's, worthy only of execution."  He could say that sort of insanely threatening thing because he could trust our Famous Elite, news media, and Hollywood, to spin it exactly the way he would want it, for the most part they all sleep together.

Ock thanks for saying it like it is, I always like the way you describe the history.   I always have to shake my head and laugh every time I see someone like Carlos Santana or other musician (artist) wearing their famous Che t-shirt.

Quote from: Bostech on February 27, 2010, 12:16:12 AM
Ben you are talking to bunch of brainwashed "patriots" who don't see ANYTHING wrong with US does around world.
They are not that different from Nazis or Serbs,while their" government is killing other people and wage wars they simply stand at side,watch and cheer and even think they are right.

You tell them about million people killed in Iraq and they say "Oh well" or try to come up with good excuse why that doesnt matter.
Just like Serbs under Milosevic who always blame everyone else and dont see anything wrong with them.even that they fought war with 5 different nations/entities in one decade they still dont see anything wrong.
They also call that "patriotism" just like righ-wing Americans here.
When Serbs get attacked,even if it is something small, they cry and whine but when they attack others and kill without mercy then "its ok and they deserved it".
Primitive human mentality of defending your "own kind" no matter what,wrong or right.
Unless you change their mentality not much will change,they wil keep coming up with new excuse for every new war and conflict.

Couldn't agree more. There's two sides to every coin, and American's conveniently forget that they aren't the only people on this planet.

Americans have been taught that their nation is civilized and humane. But, too often, U.S. actions have been uncivilized and inhumane.

“(Nationalism is) a set of beliefs taught to each generation in which the Motherland or the Fatherland is an object of veneration and becomes a burning cause for which one becomes willing to kill the children of other Motherlands or Fatherlands” - Howard Zinn

I'm not "anti American" by the way...just not a blind follower to whatever I hear on the news. Remember the famous quote...dissent is the highest form of patriotism...

Quote from: Cricket on February 26, 2010, 11:30:07 PM
Ock, I meant no disrespect by not giving alot of weight to your historical perspectives.

All I am saying is that we sometimes forget that history is written by historians who are people like you and me with prejudices, political leanings and blind affinities to one country or another.

Che and Fidel are as much beloved in Cuba and in much of Latin America as Reagan and JFK are idolized here in the US.

The people we call thugs are heroes to them and our heroes are thugs to them.

For every one evil deed that we accuse them of committing, they can point out at least in their own minds a corresponding evil act that we committed somewhere in that long history between our two countries. 

So we get bogged down with historical tit for tat and nothing changes. That is the reason I say forget about all the mumbo jumbo about history. Let's move on. Scrap this dumb !@#$%^&* embargo.

Also very true!

Glad to see more open minds here on the history records. I have been debating and fighting with the history community establishment for years to examine the legality of the Federal governments war against the South, 1861-65. If one doesn't want to admit that the South was right, at very least they should be able to see that Lincoln broke every law in the book, in an undeclared, illegal war of conquest. Panama is likewise illegal, and was seized by American troops using the excuse that US Policy in 1901 was that EVERY people in the America's has the right to self determination. When in FACT that was everybody except: Florida, Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana, South Carolina, North Carolina, Virginia, Tennessee, Arkansas, Missouri, Maryland, Oklahoma, Texas, and Arizona! So the seizure of "Panama" from Colombia, another crime? Then there was WWI, we were actually friends with the Germans and the Britt's. It was Germany that discovered that we were smuggling weapons and ammunition to the British military aboard commercial vessels. They found a huge shipment of munitions were about to sail on the Lusitania, and demanded it be unloaded. We refused. The Germans then took out full page advertising in all of the Northeastern press, "DO NOT SAIL ON THE LUSITANIA, she is a ship of war and will be targeted as such." The Germans were right, it sailed, they sunk it, we declared war!

So yes, I too think far too much is put on one side of the story, it's just with Cuba and their government, there are way too few pointing out the truth about these people.


OCKLAWAHA

History is written by historians appointed by winners.

After the Federal governments war against the South most state rights where striped from every state.

Including the right to own other people as property.

Quote from: Bostech on February 27, 2010, 02:44:46 PM
History is written by historians appointed by winners.

In most cases, yes, you're dead on.

But I think it's fair to point out--almost mandatory, in light of his recent death--the historian Howard Zinn.

I linked it already in this thread--but please check out A People's History of the United States, 1492-Present.

Quote from: Dog Walker on February 27, 2010, 03:37:50 PM
Including the right to own other people as property.

To own a person's right to his income is to own the person.

One of the reasons for the civil war

In March 1861, the New York Evening Post editorialized on this point:

That either the revenue from duties must be collected in the ports of the rebel states, or the port must be closed to importations from abroad, is generally admitted. If neither of these things be done, our revenue laws are substantially repealed; the sources which supply our treasury will be dried up; we shall have no money to carry on the government; the nation will become bankrupt before the next crop of corn is ripe. There will be nothing to furnish means of subsistence to the army; nothing to keep our navy afloat; nothing to pay the salaries of public officers; the present order of things must come to a dead stop.

At Jamestown, Va. in 1611 a group of Scottish women and children were sold as slaves. 7 years later in Jamestown the first Africans were sold in slavery. From 1611 until 1865 people from virtually every society on earth were sold into slavery in North America. Citizens in each of the thirteen colonies enslaved people, but slavery was viewed as a southern institution after the early 1800's. Along the coastal areas of the South a majority of the slaves were black. In some inland areas whites and Native Americans outnumbered black slaves.

It goes without saying that slavery is an abomination.

Let's get back to Cuba ...

My guess is that if Castro had not embraced communism whole hog he would still be our friend today. He would have been okay with us if he had become a moderate dictator like Tito.

Don't forget we were still fond of Fidel even after he got rid of our good friend, Batista. America could tolerate a corrupt Cuba in the days of Batista. But communism, never!

Remember, communism has always been our bogeyman.

Yeah only of Fidel had accepted mafia and their US bosses to run their country,everything would be OK.

Yeah,right winger posters are not giving up with their version of history and whos good and bad guy.

 :D those darn right wingers... :D  Someone here insisted every president and congressperson since Kennedy is a terrorist... :D  So what does that make you?

Why even as we speak those famous right wingers Hillary and Barack are trying to figure out how to impose an embargo on Iran...

Those darn right wingers... :D

Quote from: stephendare on February 27, 2010, 07:00:39 PM
yeah.  funny how our right wing posters never seem to know who allende or pinochet screwed over, raped or killed in backstabby power moves.

Quote from: Dog Walker on February 27, 2010, 03:37:50 PM
Including the right to own other people as property.

Really? Are you certain that the North didn't do the same thing? Better check the record friends, because THEY HAD SLAVES TOO! In fact the Confederate States Constitution outlawed the slave trade, and the US Constitution did not! The north (Ken Burns) Boasts that 90,000 African Americans fought for the north, but he never told his viewers that an estimated 350,000 fought for the south. The north had (until Korea) the US Colored Troops, they had a limited MOS, and drew pay at half the rate of the white units. The Confederate National Army had a similar program in the last months of the war (the only ones Mr. Burns mentioned) but from the first battle, thousands of "men of color" fought on the battle line as Confederate STATE troops, which drew identical pay, and experienced no segregation. At both the Gettysburg and the "Confederate Park" reunions of veterans of the war, the black Confederates found the government had not constructed tents or dormitory's for them, as officially, "THEY DIDN'T EXIST," So their brothers in gray, agreed en masse to surrender their bunks to their comrades and sleep in the tent cities. Amazing that this makes some folks so uncomfortable.

Even more interesting, those who attacked my comments on Castro and Che as being "right wing wacko rage" spun right around and jumped in bed with the same right wing when my comments threatened the American's ill founded worship of Lincoln and his war criminals. We all tend to toss that baby out with the bath water if the subject gets tender. As a historian I could have had even more fun with this... I know Stephendare knows... For example:

Japan was a member of the allies during WWI, and while the Pacific was not a major theater of that war, the Austrian-German empire had a number of Pacific colonial possessions. Coming off Admiral Togo's humiliating defeat of the Russian Imperial Navy in the Russo-Japanese War, Japan was in a power position to help us defeat the Germans. As a result of WWI, Japan obtained her first Imperial Colonial Possessions. Korea and Manchuria were both LEGALLY annexed by Japan after the Bolshevik Revolution, demonstrated that a newly aggressive Communist Soviet State could be held in check by this feisty little oriental power. When the League of Nations created the Washington Naval Treaty and the Arms Limitations, it was clear that the West was worried that Japan was a bit too strong (even though she was a loyal Allie and trained her officers in the US and Brittan). So the treaty was created to give the United States and Great Brittan FIVE capital ships for each THREE that Japan could have!! The Japanese protested, then walked out. So we froze and "Embargoed" their assets. On December 8, 1941 (Tokyo time) they suddenly balanced that naval ratio. You have to ask yourself, WHO'S FAULT WAS THAT?

OCKLAWAHA

A lot of arguing on a topic where everyone seems to agree we shouldn't be using a trade embargo.

Quote from: BridgeTroll on February 27, 2010, 08:20:35 PM
:D those darn right wingers... :D  Someone here insisted every president and congressperson since Kennedy is a terrorist... :D  So what does that make you?

Why even as we speak those famous right wingers Hillary and Barack are trying to figure out how to impose an embargo on Iran...

Those darn right wingers... :D

It is not a matter of rightwing or leftwing, it's all about our foreign policy madness regardless of who is in power. We all know who is driving the Iran embargo, it is ofcourse Israel who has us in their back pocket. And we know who is driving the Cuban embargo, it is our own south Florida voting bloc of exiles.


By the way, where is that "someone here insisted" quote. I would like to read it.

Here ya go Cricket... :)

Quote from: ben says on February 26, 2010, 10:41:19 AM

Quote from: BridgeTroll on February 26, 2010, 10:17:43 AM
I am quite informed and am quite familiar with the incident you cited...

The term remains a bumper sticker.  But feel free to call Kennedy and every president and member of congress since then terrorists... It is silly. ::)

I will agree that it certainly is a national policy worthy of review and probably time for negotiations to normalize relations.

I didn't mean to call you, in particular, ignorant. Just a general statement. Most of America (misinformed) has no idea what happens, ever, outside of their own bubble.

But yeah, I do think Kennedy, and every President thereafter is a terrorist. How many children/civilians has Obama killed in Afghanistan over the past year and a half? How many children did Clinton kill in Iraq with economic sanctions (economic terrorism)...800,000 to 1.5 million. How many people did Bush kill? Over 2 million...

Let's be real here--we aren't what we say we are.

Maybe I've missed it but, what concessions has Cuba offered in return for the lifting of sanctions?

Good question.  I am certainly in favor of a serious review of the policy with a desire to see it removed but Cuba needs to come to the table also...

QuoteThe United States embargo against Cuba (described in Cuba as el bloqueo, Spanish for "the blockade") is a commercial, economic, and financial embargo partially imposed on Cuba in October 1960. It was enacted after Cuba expropriated the properties of United States citizens and corporations and it was strengthened to a near-total embargo in February 1962.

Quote from: jaxnative on February 28, 2010, 09:56:30 AM
Maybe I've missed it but, what concessions has Cuba offered in return for the lifting of sanctions?

Oh yes, we are the mighty arbiter of human rights, how dare this Castro government not concede to our demands. They MUST release their political prisoners while we protect their assassins here in this country. Even though we look foolish in the eyes of EU, UK and Canada we will continue to demand concessions. We are always right. ALWAYS. ::)

Who said anything about being right??  For relations to normalize would require discussions of the issues... IE... we will lift the embargo if you will...(fill the blank) (return american property?)

Quote from: BridgeTroll on February 28, 2010, 11:01:54 AM
Who said anything about being right??  For relations to normalize would require discussions of the issues... IE... we will lift the embargo if you will...(fill the blank) (return american property?)

Whenever you talk about returning american property from third world countries, you are always going to be walking on thin ice. Then you are going to open a can of worms too universal and too exploitative for this one thread to handle. So let's confine this debate to the practicality of continuing this terroristic embargo on the Cuban people. Does it work or does it not work?

Until recently, the largest trading partners of Cuba has been Canada, Netherlands, China, and Spain.  The oil deal with the marxist clown in Venezuela has now make that country the largest.  They also trade with Mexico and other Latin American countries.  With that many partners they should have a nice little vibrant Euro-dandy culture in full swing.  

So what do you see happening when the moral demon to the north admits it's grave errors in it's treatment of the Marxist paradise in Cuba?  Who will American businesses deal with in Cuba?  Entrepreneurs and private groups and citizens using their initiative to better their lives or the central economic czars who will decide how many rice cookers and food to distribute.  Do you see them changing Castro's '76 Constitution outlawing private property.  Have you ever looked to see how many people have been executed and jailed in Cuba since the glorious revolution for following their conscience?

There is no amount of false moral equivalency that would induce me to support the current dictators in the police state of Cuba.  

Concessions?  HELL YES!!

QuoteWhenever you talk about returning american property from third world countries, you are always going to be walking on thin ice.

With who?  The Cuban government?  I assume if they want normalized relations they would be willing to address the concerns of those who have them.

Quoteterroristic embargo

There you go again...  So... you want to end the embargo but anyones concerns but your own are the only ones that matter? ::)  Also... when you use hyperbole like "terroristic embargo" your credibility among those who you are trying to convince fades quickly. ;)

"Terroristic embargo"?  Oh, gag!  Everything is terrorism now?

The thuggish government of Cuba LOVES the U.S. embargo.  They can point to all of the things wrong in their country, all of the shortages and pain and blame the U.S. rather than their own failed policies.

They trade with the world and the U.S.  Cuba could be, and I believe once was, the richest country in Latin American.  They have fantastic mineral resources and unbelievably fertile soil; abundant sea life, timber, fresh water and everything else a country could need, even a little oil.  The place is incredibly beautiful and could be a tourist paradise.  Instead it is a basket case that survives on welfare, first from the Soviet Union, now from Venezuela. 

The embargo should be lifted because it doesn't work.  And it helps keep in power the tinpot, narcissistic, power addicts that run the place.

Quote from: Dog Walker on February 28, 2010, 01:05:23 PM
The thuggish government of Cuba LOVES the U.S. embargo.  They can point to all of the things wrong in their country, all of the shortages and pain and blame the U.S. rather than their own failed policies.

The embargo is not hurting the government of Cuba, it hurts the masses and gives them more reasons to despise our own government's policies and support their own. It also hurts the US in the eyes of the world. Yes, they do have trading partners in Canada and other countries, who by the way we tried to blacklist in the beginning for not joing with us in the embargo.

It is laughable that we do business with China and Vietnam and Russia and Saudi Arabia, etc. etc. but we continue to hold hostage a small island nation 90 miles from our shores.

Quote from: Dog Walker on February 28, 2010, 01:05:23 PM
"Terroristic embargo"?  Oh, gag!  Everything is terrorism now?

Okay, I get it ... terrorism is when other people disrupt our American way of life either by way of suicidal missions or shoe bombs, but when our policies make life difficult for other people it is called something else. ::)

Yes!  You've got it!  Making life "difficult" is not terrorism.

Quote from: Dog Walker on February 28, 2010, 01:05:23 PM
"Terroristic embargo"?  Oh, gag!  Everything is terrorism now?

Animals breath air, but American animals steal it
Water flows freely, but American water is dammed
There is a hole in the ozone layer, but only over America
The world suffers light pollution, and it's all America's fault
Fish swim in the off shore waters, but America poisons theirs
Government is a choice, except in America where we dictate to the world
If there is a shortage, America did it
If there is a disease, America failed to stop it
If there is a war, America caused it
If there is evil, it must be American
If there is poverty, America caused it
if there are jobs, America meddled to profit from it


There is a certain element of social elitist, neither left nor right, that feel their finite wisdom is most acceptable to the world community when they surrender their Americanism on any one of the alters offered by our avowed enemys. We would be corrected and told, certainly no other country has done as much harm, so much evil, so much murder. They can cite chapter and verse for every political, scientific  or military atrocity, as they quote from luminary's like Abbie Hoffman, Jane Fonda, Robert Redford, uncle Joe Stalin, Adolph, Fidel or Che. Never mind the 60 million murdered under uncle Joe, or the 14 million by an Austrian paper hanger, our hearts bleed for humanity, and America is inhumane.


OCKLAWAHA

Exacly DW... disruption and difficulty is not terrorism.  Crickets use of the word in this context cheapens it.  

I would be unopposed to the start of a process to normalize relations with Cuba.  Of course part of that process must include Cuba addressing issues raised by Americans as I would expect the U.S. government to address issues raised by Cuba.

You see Cricket... this is the way things are done.  No one is expecting Cuba to cave to some silly demand that they become a model of democracy in exchange for lifting the embargo.  BUT... there ARE legitimate grievances on this side that will be addressed during that negotiation.

:)

Quote from: BridgeTroll on February 28, 2010, 02:20:59 PM

You see Cricket... this is the way things are done.  No one is expecting Cuba to cave to some silly demand that they become a model of democracy in exchange for lifting the embargo.  BUT... there ARE legitimate grievances on this side that will be addressed during that negotiation.

:)

That's fair, I'm all for negotiations. We can address our grievances if that helps us to save face in aborting this failed embargo. But there are still some hardnosed posters here who would like our CIA to send another poisoned cigar to Castro for making us look foolish.

QuoteBut there are still some hardnosed posters here who would like our CIA to send another poisoned cigar to Castro for making us look foolish.

I really dont think so... most understand that the embargo has outlived its usefulness.

Ock hits three fastballs right out of the park, yet a rebuttal has not been composed.

America has faults, the greatest of which was the "Civil" War. You'll notice he never referred to it thus, and for good reason. It was not a war for governmental control, rather an agressive war which plundered the south.

How soon we forget.

If you want to see real racism, head north of the Mason-Dixon.

It seems we all agree the Cuban embargo has long outlived it's usefulness. Shame on Kennedy and his mafioso legions. ;) (I can play that game too!)

Quote from: buckethead on February 28, 2010, 04:19:48 PM
America has faults, the greatest of which was the "Civil" War. You'll notice he never referred to it thus, and for good reason. It was not a war for governmental control, rather an agressive war which plundered the south.

I hate to digress from the embargo. The embargo is a more clear cut issue. You are getting into much deeper waters with the Civil War, a much more volatile subject.

But I would ask you one question: Which do you think was worse, the plundering of the South or the dehumanization of an entire race?

Slavery is an abomination, and the dehumanization of slaves occurred in the minds of the captives and captors alike. Their Creator knows the tally.

The war was not about slavery any more than Iraq was about WMD. I'm sure you see it differently.

Quote from: buckethead on February 28, 2010, 04:54:14 PM
The war was not about slavery any more than Iraq was about WMD. I'm sure you see it differently.

I agree, but my question still stands.

Perhaps a Civil War thread would be a better place to continue this... :)