Metro Jacksonville

Interesting article on Jacksonville.com


http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2010-02-22/story/toxic_past_haunts_hogans_creek%E2%80%99s_future (http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2010-02-22/story/toxic_past_haunts_hogans_creek%E2%80%99s_future)

QuoteJacksonville’s Confederate Park and other land along Hogans Creek could become a Superfund pollution cleanup site, training federal attention on century-old contamination downtown.

Although that could eventually solve a problem deferred for many years, in the short term it complicates efforts of neighbors and city officials, who want to restore the creek’s role as an amenity linking Springfield to the central business district.

“We wouldn’t invest a great deal of money in a city property that we would then have to dig up and remediate,” said Misty Skipper, an aide to Mayor John Peyton.

The mayor mentioned planning for a Hogans Creek greenway during a talk last month about positioning the city for economic recovery by using available resources. That plan is expected to be ready in late March, Skipper said.

The city will keep trying to make other parts of the creek more attractive and useful, she said, but it could delay projects near the park until pollution issues are settled.

The Superfund label would put the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency in charge of deciding how to repair environmental damage around a site east of Main Street, where coal was converted into natural gas, starting in the 19th century.

The ground there contains coal tar, a cancer-causing material thought to have contaminated ground water entering the creek.

The full extent of the pollution isn’t clear. The affected area includes vacant commercial buildings south of the creek and part of the park on the creek’s north bank.

Water in the creek could pose a means for people to come into contact with the pollution, but walking through the park is safe, said Mike Fitzsimmons,  an administrator with the Florida Department of Environmental Protection.

EPA could end up helping finance some work at the site, although responsibility for repaying costs will fall back on owners of the property, including Jacksonville’s taxpayers.

“We’ve got an extensive area of contamination,” said Brian Dougherty, another state environmental administrator. “We’re talking a multimillion-dollar cleanup here. So having EPA able to step in and hopefully provide some funding for it is really a benefit.”

Coal tar pollution has been identified in that area since at least 1993, when a city-financed study for a stormwater project reported contamination in soil and in sediment in the creek. That report recommended the city’s lawyers be brought into planning for handling that contamination.

Skipper said it wasn’t clear Friday whether that had happened 17 years ago.

People interested in the creek have been encouraged by recent talk about a greenway, said Jennifer Holbrook, a Springfield resident who said she was “delighted” by the city’s current efforts to blend ideas from government agencies, neighborhood interests and others.

But tapping the waterway’s potential has been difficult before, she said.

“I think part of that comes from the [Confederate] park … the inability to do anything with it, in part because of contamination,” she said.

“Different departments have worked on it at different times and they have never coordinated their efforts. And now it’s been left in this deteriorating state for so long that it’s a white elephant. I think everybody is afraid to see what the real cost is going to be.”

It’s not clear yet exactly how far the coal-tar pollution reaches, Dougherty said, and it’s far too early to decide the cost and means of handling the site.

The EPA usually proposes new sites for the Superfund program’s National Priorities List twice a year, in the spring and fall, Dougherty said. The next proposals will be made in March, but EPA’s review of Confederate Park probably won’t be ready then, said Barbara Alfano, an EPA project manager.

The state agency supports putting the site on the Superfund list, and is writing a brief to that effect, Dougherty said.

The area known to have some contamination straddles the creek, reaching southward to the closed and deteriorating Park View Inn off State Street, Dougherty said.

The owners don’t expect EPA action to affect that site very much, though, said Robert Van Winkel, vice president of Park View Inns  Inc. He said the hotel is expected to be demolished within months, and the owners want to build a three-story parking garage with ground-level retail space.

Skipper said greenway plans the city is developing represent just a first step in addressing the creek’s needs. She said a longer-term process of restoring the waterway’s environmental health will take years longer, but that there’s no cost or timetable yet for either.

However the EPA handles the site, Skipper said, “the end result is going to be the same, which is that at some point, the contamination is going to have to be remediated.”

QuoteThe owners don’t expect EPA action to affect that site very much, though, said Robert Van Winkel, vice president of Park View Inns  Inc. He said the hotel is expected to be demolished within months, and the owners want to build a three-story parking garage with ground-level retail space.

Interesting.  I think this has been mentioned somewhere on this site before.  What is everyone's opinion on this?

I certainly want to see that eyesore taken down. I'm curious as to what kind of retail the owner's looking at or for, without knowing that, it's difficult to really voice an opinion.

Thrilled to hear the Park View might be coming down in the next few months.  If properly designed the parking garage with street level retail would be an asset.  I know some plans have been floated around that contemplate green space in that area but if preserving the Claude Nolan building is a goal then that green space would be isolated from the park anyway.

Take the Pilot Club Evergreen Cemetery Tour in April, there will be a very interesting story told  of that part of the creek.  Just East of Main is where the fire crossed.

Quote from: Miss Fixit on February 22, 2010, 08:17:18 AM
I know some plans have been floated around that contemplate green space in that area but if preserving the Claude Nolan building is a goal then that green space would be isolated from the park anyway.

Purchasing and then turning that spot into green space would be pretty foolish to say the least.  Its probably the most visible commercial corner in the urban core.  Retail will work there before it could anywhere else on Main and it would be a nice gateway and help bridge the gap between DT and Springfield.

any kind of retail at that place would be an improvement --

I agree with Lake.  Let's get people shopping there.

Quote from: stephendare on February 22, 2010, 09:59:40 AM
It would be idiotic to make the park view green space at this point.

It would make a pretty beautiful spot for a law college though.

Satellite campus for Florida Coastal?  Site's too small for full on college of law.

The real shame is that this was not successfully converted into lofts with retail space as once intended.  I know the market doesn't support the residential, but retail and a parking garage only is not the best use of this space.  It would also seem that the contamination on this site is not as bad as some indicated, as building new still sounds like an option.  My fear is that the old gets torn down and the new never gets built. Green space by default.

I do wonder if some people had campaigned to get this building redone as hard as they have to get it torn down, would it be done already?

I'm pretty sure FCSL originally wanted to move somewhere downtown.  Unfortunately, the City dropped the ball and they moved into their new location on Baymeadows.  I don't see them moving downtown at this point.

"My fear is that the old gets torn down and the new never gets built. Green space by default."

- green space by default is pretty good default scenario.

Quote from: strider on February 22, 2010, 10:23:29 AMIt would also seem that the contamination on this site is not as bad as some indicated

As this is no doubt aimed at me, do you have anything to back that up, because the DEP report indicates the site is pretty contaminated.

Your right. Its all a figment of my imagination based on a personal grudge I have against a person I have never met beyond a few conversations on the phone. It has nothing to do with the info I learned while working on trying get the creek and parks cleaned up.

From DEP report released in 2008
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4052/4379161680_a09f44178d_o.jpg)
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4011/4378409503_11cc527617_o.jpg)
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4011/4378409503_11cc527617_o.jpg)


Interesting note at the end about the foundation remaining in place, and the sub-basement being filled with concrete.

Sounds like a perfectly clean site. Maybe we should open a daycare there.

First of all, Dan, no, it wasn't aimed at you, you didn’t even pop into my head when I posted it. and Second, this indicates a fear that contaminated ground water may get into the building and also other controls on the adjacent property.  It sounds like, yes, there is contamination, and yes, it can be controlled and will be controlled by the methods described. If the controls are in place, then yes, a day care could be there without an issue.

Perhaps if you posted the entire study, people could see what is really being said.

Meanwhile, yes, we need another dirt filled parking lot in the urban core, so just tear the place down and let it sit.  No, let’s at least try to make sure the site is actually used for something worthwhile. 

There is no back hand admission. This site is contaminated. You said it wasn't, I said it was. The report agrees with me.

Its very big of you to give the site a pass because you identify with its owner, who, btw, has never been accused of causing the contamination.

This report covers the Park View site, and its future use. NOT creek or park cleanup, which is my primary concern, and always has been.

Quote from: strider on February 22, 2010, 11:26:00 AM
First of all, Dan, no, it wasn't aimed at you, you didn’t even pop into my head when I posted it. and Second, this indicates a fear that contaminated ground water may get into the building and also other controls on the adjacent property.  It sounds like, yes, there is contamination, and yes, it can be controlled and will be controlled by the methods described. If the controls are in place, then yes, a day care could be there without an issue.

Perhaps if you posted the entire study, people could see what is really being said.

Meanwhile, yes, we need another dirt filled parking lot in the urban core, so just tear the place down and let it sit.  No, let’s at least try to make sure the site is actually used for something worthwhile. 

If anyone wants to read the report, it is a public records, and available at the DEP website for downloading. Thats how I got it.

Quote from: stephendare on February 22, 2010, 11:31:01 AM
Strider the report couldnt have been more clear.

"No further action with engineering and institutional controls"

Way to gloss over the findings.

Its too bad your hatred for me has blinded you so much to the problems of cleaning up the creek. Its clear your far more interested in continuing a personal vendetta, then cleaning the park, not that your opinion means much anyway.

Quote from: Hypocrite on February 22, 2010, 05:28:43 AM
Interesting article on Jacksonville.com


http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2010-02-22/story/toxic_past_haunts_hogans_creek%E2%80%99s_future (http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2010-02-22/story/toxic_past_haunts_hogans_creek%E2%80%99s_future)

QuoteJacksonville’s Confederate Park and other land along Hogans Creek could become a Superfund pollution cleanup site, training federal attention on century-old contamination downtown.

Although that could eventually solve a problem deferred for many years, in the short term it complicates efforts of neighbors and city officials, who want to restore the creek’s role as an amenity linking Springfield to the central business district.

“We wouldn’t invest a great deal of money in a city property that we would then have to dig up and remediate,” said Misty Skipper, an aide to Mayor John Peyton.

The mayor mentioned planning for a Hogans Creek greenway during a talk last month about positioning the city for economic recovery by using available resources. That plan is expected to be ready in late March, Skipper said.

The city will keep trying to make other parts of the creek more attractive and useful, she said, but it could delay projects near the park until pollution issues are settled.

The Superfund label would put the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency in charge of deciding how to repair environmental damage around a site east of Main Street, where coal was converted into natural gas, starting in the 19th century.

The ground there contains coal tar, a cancer-causing material thought to have contaminated ground water entering the creek.

The full extent of the pollution isn’t clear. The affected area includes vacant commercial buildings south of the creek and part of the park on the creek’s north bank.

Water in the creek could pose a means for people to come into contact with the pollution, but walking through the park is safe, said Mike Fitzsimmons,  an administrator with the Florida Department of Environmental Protection.

EPA could end up helping finance some work at the site, although responsibility for repaying costs will fall back on owners of the property, including Jacksonville’s taxpayers.

“We’ve got an extensive area of contamination,” said Brian Dougherty, another state environmental administrator. “We’re talking a multimillion-dollar cleanup here. So having EPA able to step in and hopefully provide some funding for it is really a benefit.”

Coal tar pollution has been identified in that area since at least 1993, when a city-financed study for a stormwater project reported contamination in soil and in sediment in the creek. That report recommended the city’s lawyers be brought into planning for handling that contamination.

Skipper said it wasn’t clear Friday whether that had happened 17 years ago.

People interested in the creek have been encouraged by recent talk about a greenway, said Jennifer Holbrook, a Springfield resident who said she was “delighted” by the city’s current efforts to blend ideas from government agencies, neighborhood interests and others.

But tapping the waterway’s potential has been difficult before, she said.

“I think part of that comes from the [Confederate] park … the inability to do anything with it, in part because of contamination,” she said.

“Different departments have worked on it at different times and they have never coordinated their efforts. And now it’s been left in this deteriorating state for so long that it’s a white elephant. I think everybody is afraid to see what the real cost is going to be.”

It’s not clear yet exactly how far the coal-tar pollution reaches, Dougherty said, and it’s far too early to decide the cost and means of handling the site.

The EPA usually proposes new sites for the Superfund program’s National Priorities List twice a year, in the spring and fall, Dougherty said. The next proposals will be made in March, but EPA’s review of Confederate Park probably won’t be ready then, said Barbara Alfano, an EPA project manager.

The state agency supports putting the site on the Superfund list, and is writing a brief to that effect, Dougherty said.

The area known to have some contamination straddles the creek, reaching southward to the closed and deteriorating Park View Inn off State Street, Dougherty said.

The owners don’t expect EPA action to affect that site very much, though, said Robert Van Winkel, vice president of Park View Inns  Inc. He said the hotel is expected to be demolished within months, and the owners want to build a three-story parking garage with ground-level retail space.

Skipper said greenway plans the city is developing represent just a first step in addressing the creek’s needs. She said a longer-term process of restoring the waterway’s environmental health will take years longer, but that there’s no cost or timetable yet for either.

However the EPA handles the site, Skipper said, “the end result is going to be the same, which is that at some point, the contamination is going to have to be remediated.”

It should also be noted that the Aerostar environmental report quoted here was contracted and paid for by the owner of the Park View Inn property, not by the City, and not by any other independent public agency.

 

Quote from: zoo on February 22, 2010, 11:49:51 AM
It should also be noted that the Aerostar environmental report quoted here was contracted and paid for by the owner of the Park View Inn property, not by the City, and not by any other independent public agency.

QuoteDan B: From DEP report released in 2008

It is a DEP legal  report, is it not?  So it is valid for this site, correct?  Seems like the owner of the building did the correct thing and had an approved site survey done by an approved and certified contractor.  And who would the city or other public agency hire?  An outside contractor like Aerostar?

While one can imply that it was done with the best interests of the owner in mind, it was also done according to federal guidelines by a federally approved contractor and therefore is a valid report as to the conditions of the site and the approved and accepted ways to remediate or control that site.

So you are submitting that the site is perfectly fine, and has no impact on the creek or surrounding parks. Gotcha. Check, no problem.

It seems that the author of this piece should be informed. Nothing to see here. Move it along.

Nope. Never.

The site that I and several others had talked about was north of the Basketball courts, over on Blvd, it is publicly owned, and has no buildings on it.

But thanks for trying to, once again, smear me by making it seem as though I have personal interests in this site. I do not.

You do realize that Hogans creek is polluted pretty much from top to bottom, by many different sources, right?

From a blog entry in 2006

QuoteDue to the ash contamination in Schell Park, the park’s future is very much up in the air. Until some form of remediation, or cap is completed, the park is an unusable site for any sort of recreation.

Quote from: stephendare on February 22, 2010, 03:17:51 PM
I do, in fact.  Something youve never wanted to talk about before

Im aware that your site is the opposite end of springfield from the hotel,

Just wonder why hes an asshole for doing the same thing you are proposing to do with the skatepark.

What the hell are you talking about, I have never claimed the Park View is responsible for the entire creeks ills. This is something you gave birth to, as a way to smear me.

There is a pond that was allegedly filled in with trash at 4th and Pearl, there was once an auto body that sat at McKissick And Laura, there is ask contamination in Schell and McPherson Park.

Not to mention the problem with Fecal Coliforms and other bacteria, the source of which has never been identified conclusively.

Im sorry you didnt sit in countless hours of meeting with DEP, ACoE, Health, State, and City people listening to the laundry list of problems.

Its interesting to watch you spend so much time quoting other peoples posts, so you can nail them on being wrong later. For that reason alone, its entertaining watching you go back and edit your posts when you get info wrong.

Now that I have made a sarcastic post about opening a daycare on the Park View site, I am now on record as wanting a daycare in the parks?

You are so disingenuous, its laughable.

Quote from: Dan B on February 22, 2010, 03:18:24 PM
From a blog entry in 2006

QuoteDue to the ash contamination in Schell Park, the park’s future is very much up in the air. Until some form of remediation, or cap is completed, the park is an unusable site for any sort of recreation.

Nope, I guess not.

Quote from: Dan B on February 22, 2010, 02:58:12 PM
So you are submitting that the site is perfectly fine, and has no impact on the creek or surrounding parks. Gotcha. Check, no problem.

It seems that the author of this piece should be informed. Nothing to see here. Move it along.

Ok, Dan B, no, I did not say that. I was taking offense at the implication by Zoo that this report was somehow invalid because the owner of the site paid for it.  My point was, it had to be done under federal guidelines, just like if it had been paid for by the city.

This report has to do with the Park View Inn site. It does talk about adjacent sites.  It does not talk about the Hogan Creek issues. Why would it?

But, let's take a look at a few things you posted from the report: (I can’t cut and paste them for some reason, but…)

It does state that six (6) JEA wells are close enough to be effected.  It also states that no real data as to whether they are effected is available.  One thing we can say is that the water is treated and tested by the city and so it passes their standards and therefore the water we drink is not contaminated by this site.  Or at least we hope not.  From this one paragraph, we can’t be 100% sure, we can only hope for the best.

This study did indeed find contamination, no one can argue that.

It is also stated that a discussion occurred between  Aerostar (the company hired to do the survey), the Florida Department of Environmental Protection, and the site owners, meaning the survey results were reviewed by the disinterested (for development purposes) third party, the state, and they agreed on the types of controls and the finding of the site survey. 

Overall, it does seem that the suggested controls will do their jobs and make this site safe to use.

As it is adjacent to the park and we can not see any real information about contamination at the park, we can only assume that this site does not or is at least not expected to severely impact the Hogan’s Creek Project.

However, only time will tell, as even this most recent articles says: “The full extent of the pollution isn’t clear. The affected area includes vacant commercial buildings south of the creek and part of the park on the creek’s north bank.” and “It’s not clear yet exactly how far the coal-tar pollution reaches, Dougherty said, and it’s far too early to decide the cost and means of handling the site.”

So it seems like we all have to wait for more information to be released if not further studies to be done as far as Hogan’s Creek Park.  However, from the 2008 DEP approved report, it seems that the Park View Inn site is ready to be used.

Quote from: stephendare on February 22, 2010, 04:06:35 PM
wow.  it just hurts watching the squirming.   In a visceral kind of way.

Yeah, boy you got me alrighty. Oh sure, the creek and parks are still a shithole, but you managed to prove that The Park View is a gleaming gem among the otherwise screwed up, environmentally destroyed area.

Congrats.

Ok, correct me if I'm wrong but this is how I've interpreted the info we've received over time. There is contamination under the Park View Inn. The PV site may be remediated by filling the basement in with concrete but that won't necessarily stop the contamination underneath from continueing to leach into surrounding areas. Problem fixed for the PV but most likely not for the creek or surrounding sites. As far as Zoo's post, I took it that she was saying the report was done by the owner, not the city to show that the owner wasn't being railroaded by an outside party.

Quote from: stephendare on February 22, 2010, 04:21:48 PM
In fact, its soo great, that you are going to do the exact same thing as Robert Van Winkel in order to build a Skate Plaza, right?

To state the obvious....

Dan B said that remediation would have to take place at the proposed site for a skate park before one would be built.

If the land where the Park View Inn is was remediated first, then it would the "exact same thing". If the land was not remediated, then it would not be the exact same thing.

I think one of the issues is whether the contamination should be contained or controlled, as this site survey indicates for both the Park View Inn site and the adjacent site owned by the city or if it is severe enough and if it will continue to contaminate additional areas and therefore should be remediated or removed.

I am beginning to suspect that there could be a conflict between what the guidelines say is cool for a commercial site like the Park View Inn and adjacent city owned properties and what should be done for a very public area like the park that has active flowing water on site.

It would be interesting to see some data on the water quality coming out of the city wells…is JEA removing contaminates from the water that could be traced back to the Hogan’s Creek contamination?  If not, perhaps it is not as bad as some wish to think and containment is all that is required. If so, then perhaps something more would be needed. I suppose that there is a chance that the contaminated area is really stable and not spreading (naturally contained?), but that seems unlikely, because of Murphy if nothing else.

There has to have been a valid study done about this as this city does seem to love it’s studies. And weren’t there a bunch of barrels at the park for a while having something to do with the testing going on? Has a copy been posted somewhere?

Contact Rich Rachal as the FDEP. Last I knew, he was the clean up manager for NE Florida, and intimatly aware of the Confederate Park issues, and was in charge of the ongoing testing around the pond, and along the south bank of the creek.

"To state the obvious....

Dan B said that remediation would have to take place at the proposed site for a skate park before one would be built.

If the land where the Park View Inn is was remediated first, then it would the "exact same thing". If the land was not remediated, then it would not be the exact same thing."

Personally, I don't feel that this site should be used for a skate park. Nor do I feel it should be used as a college. I feel it should either be transformed into retail and or residential.

^to my knowledge, nobody has ever suggested it be used as a skate park.

I will suggest it right here and right now, make it a skate park!

AND A DAYCARE!!!

We don't need a skate park in that location, nor do we need a day care center. As Lakelander said, it's one of the main gateways to our neighborhood and to the commercial corridor, so why not be smart about it's use

Make the sight a museum and art gallery

Quote from: Springfielder on February 23, 2010, 04:08:32 PM
We don't need a skate park in that location, nor do we need a day care center. As Lakelander said, it's one of the main gateways to our neighborhood and to the commercial corridor, so why not be smart about it's use

ok, how about a skate park, day care...................AND FIRING RANGE!!!!!

Quote from: fsu813 on February 23, 2010, 05:21:16 PM

Quote from: Springfielder on February 23, 2010, 04:08:32 PMWe don't need a skate park in that location, nor do we need a day care center. As Lakelander said, it's one of the main gateways to our neighborhood and to the commercial corridor, so why not be smart about it's use

ok, how about a skate park, day care...................AND FIRING RANGE!!!!!

Why not try calling 1-800-ubamoron, they may help with those ideas

skate park, day care, firing range.....and calling center?

now you've gone too far.

Its going to be a parking garage and retail according to the article.  Why continue speculating?

people have tried to post valid ideas, but the one member continues to try and flame the thread

How about retail, parking garage and hotel.

I will speculate if I want to.

Quote from: Springfielder on February 23, 2010, 06:12:59 PM
people have tried to post valid ideas, but the one member continues to try and flame the thread

This thread was lost a looooong time ago.

Yesterday the EPA announced its National Priorities List, naming ten new final superfund sites and proposing others.  Hogans Creek was not on the list but Kerr-McGee Chemical Corp, a 31 acre site on the western banks of the St. Johns River in downtown Jacksonville, is. 

//www.epa.gov/superfund/sites/npt/nar1806.htm

I believe that the creek is much much more than a clean up problem. Until 1906 the area now covered by Confederate Park and the dog park was a swamp with deep cypruss ponds.  I believe somewhat similar to the wetlands or tidal basins you see on the way to Amelia Island.There were saw mills close to the area, at least three, and I believe it was possible to come into the area by water maybe even bringing the lumber to the mills. It was filled in because even then it was considered a health issue, during the dry season when the wetlands were less wet, it was considered an eysore. Just as the Israelis are now finding out that it was a mistake to fill in a wetland and are now trying to recover it, I believe that not only are you fighting the man made contamination (and it IS there, right up to State) but nature itself.

"Yesterday the EPA announced its National Priorities List, naming ten new final superfund sites and proposing others.  Hogans Creek was not on the list but Kerr-McGee Chemical Corp, a 31 acre site on the western banks of the St. Johns River in downtown Jacksonville, is."  


- do they update this list annually?

Twice annually actually; I believe they are Spring and Fall deadlines.

What would it take to place Hogans Creek on the list?

DEP recommendation?

Quote from: billy on March 04, 2010, 04:15:42 PM
What would it take to place Hogans Creek on the list?

I believe that COJ lobbied for inclusion of Kerr-McGee and could do so for Hogan's Creek.

When you say COJ, what City of Jacksonville entity?

Guys, guys, guys. You have it all wrong. Hogans creek is pristine. there is NO pollution, especially not from former industrial sites along the creek.

Quote from: Dan B on March 04, 2010, 11:38:03 PM
Guys, guys, guys. You have it all wrong. Hogans creek is pristine. there is NO pollution, especially not from former industrial sites along the creek.

Why go there, Dan B?  Let's keep this thread on a positive track.

Kerr-McGee is privately owned? Park View Inn site is also, but the Hogan's Creek parks system is not.

 Regardless of what some may wish to believe, the Park View Inn site has a valid and apparently approved plan in place to allow it to be used.  Which is all that has been pretty much been said by some of us.  We apparently do not know how this plan may or may not effect Hogan's Creek clean-up at this point.

There have been preliminary plans made to rehab the Hogan's Creek park system.  While I have not read all of this plan, I would assume that the plan would have addressed the contamination issues as the park is known to have and has been known to have contamination issues.  If the current plan that has been worked on does not have the contamination issues addressed, it needs to be thrown out and the planning started over. 

I'm not sure why you would want the site on the EPA’s  "Most wanted" list, except in hopes that someone else would pay for the clean-up.  From very limited past experience, the current property owner (in this case, the taxpayers) will still end up with paying the majority of the cost anyway. As I understand it, having it on that list may take away some of the control of how it is done and what we end up with.  That may not be the best solution to the problem.

QuoteI'm not sure why you would want the site on the EPA’s  "Most wanted" list, except in hopes that someone else would pay for the clean-up.  From very limited past experience, the current property owner (in this case, the taxpayers) will still end up with paying the majority of the cost anyway. As I understand it, having it on that list may take away some of the control of how it is done and what we end up with.  That may not be the best solution to the problem.

Agree. Clock is ticking on COJ to prove to DEP they are moving forward on it, or, per the article, DEP will likely recommend it for NPL inclusion in the Fall. Question to the taxpayer is "Do you want to clean it now in xx time for $$? Or do you want to clean it later in xxxxxxx time for $$$$$$$?"

Quote from: Miss Fixit on March 05, 2010, 07:22:21 AM

Quote from: Dan B on March 04, 2010, 11:38:03 PM
Guys, guys, guys. You have it all wrong. Hogans creek is pristine. there is NO pollution, especially not from former industrial sites along the creek.

Why go there, Dan B?  Let's keep this thread on a positive track.

Frustration, mostly. I worked for the better part of three years educating myself on the issues surrounding the creek. Meeting with countless people from DEP, the Army Core of Engineers, COJ, health dept, ect, ect, only to be told that Im a liar by someone who, gasp, wasnt at a single one of those meetings.

Keep in mind, we are talking about REALLY bad stuff. Carcinogens, and toxins.

Hogans creek cannot be cleaned up without addressing the industrial contamination that pollutes the sites along its shores. ALL of the sites!, including former autobodys, filled in ponds, and yes, coal gasification sites that are so clean that a basement must be filled with cement to make the site usable. Point blank, and Period. No amount of word twisting, hand wringing, or misdirection changes any of this. This has become a point of personal attacks, and back and forth, when the one thing you would think EVERYONE wants, is a creek that isnt a contaminated cess pool.

This thread will no doubt spin out control again, but for those who ACTUALLY want to know, dont take my word for it. Talk to the city. Talk to the DEP. Get your own information.