Metro Jacksonville

In light of some of the recent discussions and comments, I thought perhaps an overall discussion would educate everyone what the overlay actually says about automotive uses.  I have tried to touch on what we have now, what the history behind the handling of the Automotive uses was and what we may need or want for the future.

We have some good knowledgeable people out there and I hope they will chime in and add their own insights to this discussion.

Below are three quotes from recent threads having to do with the appeal of the planning commissions approval of the exception for a car wash. They actually indicate a lack of understanding of what the overlay says about automotive uses and why they were considered “intensive”: to start with and so less desirable.  It was during the original debate over the car wash that it was actually said that the car wash was “against the overlay”.

“I'm sure its going to be the same answer that has been batted around for the last few months..."It's against the overlay" which is wrong, it's use is in the overlay is listed as a permissible exception, if it was against the overlay it would say that it was not allowed, period.”

“…….… fund raising for the car wash appeal. …… to help
fight this threat to our overlay.

“The overlay specifically notes the intrusive use of auto based businesses and aims to curb more of the same.”

While the last statement is actually close to being accurate (we‘ll see how it is somewhat wrong later), claims that a car wash or other automotive uses are “against the overlay” or a “threat to the overlay “ are incorrect.  But rather than  just accept that statement, let’s look at the overlay and what it says about Automotive uses:

First Automotive reference in the overlay is in the “Sec. 656.365. Legislative findings and intent.”

(e) Within the one square mile area of the Springfield Historic District, the Council finds there is a disproportionately large number of rooming houses (13), group care homes, community residential homes of seven or more residents and automotive uses (20), including automobile sales and repairs and related automotive uses.

Note that the reference is to the number of theses businesses rather than an issue with the type of business and the quantity referred to is not just automotive, but a group made up of several different types of businesses. Another interesting note is that the numbers for both “rooming houses” and the others were probably low as I believe there were really over 40 in the rooming houses, ALF’s and group care home category alone.  I have no info on the total number of automotive uses other than being told there were too many of them.

It should also be noted that the previous paragraph to this one in the overlay does mentions:  “the City allowed intensive and intrusive uses to locate in the neighborhood.”  One could certainly construe this to include automotive uses.

The second reference has to do with the sales of auto parts and is found as a permissible use under the CCG-S zoning:

IV. Commercial Community/General-Springfield (CCG-S) District.
(a) Permitted uses and structures.
(1) Retail outlets for sale ……..new automobile parts (including rebuilt parts not installation, repair or rebuilding of parts) and accessories

The next Reference is further down in  CCG-S zoning where automotive uses are now listed as permissible by exception. 

(5) Service stations, service garages for minor repairs and car washer.

Again, permissible by exception , not disallowed.  By exception basically means that each case must be looked at individually for it’s particular use, any possible issues and impact on the community.  As things like this effect the immediate neighbors most of all, their opinions are often given the most credibility. This is also backed up by the requirement that a appeal be submitted by someone who lives within 350 feet of the proposed site.

This is the only reference to automotive uses in zoning covered by the overlay.  CCG-S is the most intensive zoning covered by the overlay as IL is not addressed in anyway.  Regular zoning code will apply at any IL zoning within the overlay boundaries with some issues I’m sure being resolved with the historic nature of the area in mind. IL zoning does allow for the very intensives uses and automotive uses are a part of them.

Next we have under: “(d) Intensive uses.” the following :  Note that this refers to Existing Automotive related uses.

(2) Automotive uses. Existing automotive-related uses, including auto repair, auto sales, tire stores, and similar uses, must conform to the following standards within three years from the effective date of this ordinance:
(A) No outdoor storage or car display is allowed unless it is screened from adjacent residences by a wall, fence or hedge. This visual screen must be at least six (6) feet in height and at least 85 percent opaque.
(B) Any new outdoor car display or temporary storage of properly licensed automobiles and pick-up trucks must be screened from a public street by wrought iron style fencing of iron, steel, or aluminum construction with vertical pickets, or by a combination of a masonry retaining wall with wrought iron style fencing, which fencing shall be located within ten (10) feet of the public right-of-way.
(C) Hours of operation are limited to 7:00 a.m. to 7:00 p.m.; and
(D) Parking of cars and storage of material is not allowed on public right-of-ways, sidewalks, and adjacent properties.
(E) Facilities that are adjacent to residentially zoned property or that are located across a public right-of-way or alley from residentially zoned property must perform activities that produce sustained and objectionable noise solely within soundproofed buildings or within buildings with bays that do not face residentially-zoned properties.

I believe it says existing in this section because it was believed that these issues would be addressed when exceptions for any new automotive use were being decided on.

Now let’s address the idea that Automotive uses are on the same level as say rooming houses and so part of the intrusive uses that should be banned per some.  The problem here is that  automotive  uses, while considered intensive, were not part of the special uses that were out right banned and not allowed at all, they have been selectively allowed by exception.  This is a nod to the fact that the number of these uses were far more the issue than the use.

As we can see, automotive uses are not the “harbingers of death” some might wish to believe.  In fact, not only do we have several “existing” ( here at the time the overlay was passed in 2000), we have at least two new automotive uses already on main.  It should also be noted that these two businesses were granted exceptions as required per the overlay and have been accepted here without issue.  Even so,  many of the above criteria for existing automotive business were not followed.  AA Auto (right?  That’s Mikes?) I believe simply puts everything inside every night to compensate for the lack of space and fencing.  Some, well the chain link remains, some, no fence at all and so I believe this section to have been deemed mostly unenforceable and so we have what we have.

Now let’s take a look at why automotive businesses were maligned at all to begin with. In speaking to those who were actually part of the decisions made involving the overlay,  it was the car dealerships primarily.  It wasn’t so much that they posed a problem, but the shear number of them.  Next we have the way they look….smallish buildings with large empty lots at the street to display their wares.  Not very “historic looking” to most.  Then add in the chain link and barbed wire that I’m sure got added in the eighties and nineties.  The repair shops can also be “guilty” of bad appearance as they store cars out in front where they can be seen.

We also have historic service stations and gas stations left in the area.  Unfortunately, they are not currently in use as what they were built for.  We do have several gas stations and service shops still in service but they are far more contemporary in appearance.

In addition, since the main issue was the number of dealerships, we can all see that the overlay has successfully reduced that number.  Though I will say it seems to have been a “watch what you wish for” scenario to some degree as we went from car lots that potentially brought more people here to the commercial corridor to empty and forgotten lots.  It’s too bad some ‘compromise” … they move out, something  different moved in … couldn’t have been made with the universe.

Basically, due to appearance, the car dealerships have been deemed unwelcome in the historic district as non-historic uses.  I personally think that is very, very wrong.  We still have two cool historic buildings left that were indeed  built as car dealerships.  Anyone know which ones they are?

Yep, back then, dealerships were smaller and they were “city built”, meaning a larger building up front that housed the show room, the service shops and everything a dealership did.  You can still see them today in large cities.  I think it was later as dealerships moved out to follow the rush to the ‘burbs that they became what we see today.  So even a new car dealership that wished to come in and redo one of those old dealership buildings should be welcomed.  Though I would think that it would have to be a specialty dealer as there would be a size limitation.  And not to mention require a PUD.  Of course it is probably unlikely in any case, which is unfortunate as it would certainly help make the commercial corridor much more viable.

Does anyone remember the famous car racing team that had it’s shop in Springfield for many years?  They built a state of the art shop somewhere else.  Perhaps if they had been encouraged in some way, they may have  redone the buildings they were in.  Perhaps they could be enticed today to do something like a museum or some such for the historic racing cars they still hold.

We have seen that though some may wish to believe otherwise, automotive uses were not disallowed  and while they were not exactly encouraged, they were not banned nor have they been pushed out, in fact new ones have been welcomed already. We live in a car based society no matter the cost of gasoline and we will be in one for some time to come.  They are a part of Springfield today and even a part of the history of Springfield.

By the way, the two dealership buildings are the current Horne’s at 1st and Main as a Chevrolet dealership and the old “EH Thompson” building which was the first Cadillac dealership in Jacksonville and a dealer who still exists…Claude Nolan’s.  I believe that building, if not both of them, to have been originally designed by Klutho. 

The racing team was Brumos Porsche, who in the seventies and eighties were perhaps the most successful Porsche racing team in this country if not the world.  Many famous drivers and cars were at the white building located at 5th and Main from (I believe ) sometime in the seventies through the eighties.  I understand that when they were here it was kept pretty much on the down low as the cars and equipment were very expensive.  Though I also heard they never had any trouble.

Very informative strider.................makes me wonder just what SPAR thinks about the situation!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Gregg_(racing_driver)

Quote

Gregg was born in New York City, the son of a mechanical engineer and manufacturer of marine incinerators.[1]

He graduated from the Deerfield Academy, a private prep school,[1] in 1957 and moved on to Harvard University, where he earned a degree in English.[2] He had a brief career in film making, coupling that as a squash player and then eventually settling as an automobile racer.[1] After his graduation from Harvard in 1961,[3] he moved to Europe and attended the Centro-Sud Driving School.[2] He then joined the U.S. Navy and became an Air Intelligence Officer, and was assigned to the Naval Air Station in Jacksonville, Florida and served there until he was discharged in 1965.[2] He was at this time married to Jennifer Johnson and had two sons, Jason Gregg and Simon Gregg.
[edit] Racing career

Whilst he was at school, he began his motorsport career in gymkhanas and ice races after an initial appearance in a hill climb in 1958 in Laconia, New Hampshire.[1]

April, 1963 he drove an unmodified production Corvette in Osceola County, Florida and won the SCCA sanctioned race. He became a serious Porsche racer in 1964 with a Porsche 904 and then moved into competition with a Carrera.[1] In August 1965 he purchased a local Porsche dealership named Brumos Porsche after the death of the owner, Hubert Brundage.[2] He was the SCCA's Southeastern Division champion in 1967 in two classes and had scored victories in Daytona and Sebring.[1] In 1968 he acquired a Mercedes-Benz dealership. In 1968, he entered competition in the SCCA's Under-2-Litre section of the Trans-Am Series. He won six Trans-Ams and the title in 1969 and also took the SCCA's B Sedan National Championship. In 1970, he opened a third dealership called SportAuto selling Fiats and MGs.[2]

In 1971, he was part of the major Trans-Am Series, driving Bud Moore Ford Mustangs, alongside teammate George Follmer.[2] He won the Trans-Am Series in 1973 in a Brumos Porsche and again in 1974. By this time, he was involved with IMSA and won the IMSA GTO overall championship in 1971 and 1973 earning him the nickname "Peter Perfect" possibly a reference to a character in a Hanna-Barbera Cartoon called the "Wacky Races" and his clean cut Naval Officer image. In 1973 he won the 24 Hours of Daytona in a Porsche Carrera co-driven by Hurley Haywood. He then announced his retirement, to lead a life as a director of the Jacksonville National Bank,[2] a club tennis player and a speedboat racer out of the Ponte Vedra Yacht Club.[1]

He retracted his retirement and went on to win the 24 Hours of Daytona three more times, in 1975, 1976, and 1978.[2] He won IMSA GTO overall championships in 1974, 1975, 1978, and 1979, giving him six career titles in the class. But in June 1980, he was due to compete at the 24 Hours of Le Mans in a 924 Carrera GTS for the Porsche factory team along with fellow American Al Holbert, but was injured near Paris when his car, en-route to a practice session for the race,[2] attempted to overtake a ox cart, but a car pulled out in front of him and whilst avoiding them,[4] the car careered into a ditch.[3] Artist Frank Stella was his passenger.[5] His place was taken by Derek Bell, when doctors refused to allow Gregg to race.[3]

He later returned and was given the clearance to compete at the Paul Revere 250 at Daytona the following month. His partner Haywood, who was scheduled to drive for most of the race, soon fell ill whilst leading, leaving Gregg to fill in for the rest of the race, but their Porsche fell back, eventually finishing third. Suffering from double vision, he was soon barred from racing by IMSA.[3]
[edit] Death
"I just don't enjoy life anymore. I must have the right to end it. I don't want to live with my lifelong (unintelligible word) of driving everything away, with making myself and other(s) miserable. I don't feel crazy. I done all I want to. Thats it. 2.30pm
â€"Gregg's suicide note.[3]

Peter Gregg was discovered dead aged 40 on December 15, 1980 at the sand dune by the A1A highway south of Jacksonville by a hiker, who discovered him with a gunshot wound to his head, an hour earlier than he had written on a suicide note (right)[3] that was found in his briefcase, addressed to Deborah Mars, who he had recently married to, his former wife, his two sons and his business associates.[4]

The official finding was suicide.[6] Reports at the time suggested that Gregg was suffering from a progressive and incurable nervous system disorder which would have slowly degraded his physical capabilities and would have eventually been fatal - and that this, in the context of his perfectionism for which he was known, was what motivated his suicide. He was believed by some to be a manic depressive.[7]

At the time of his death Gregg had achieved a reputation as one of America's greatest and most successful road racers with just 152 wins out of 340 races he started.[3] Although Gregg was highly respected as a driver, his pursuit of perfectionism alienated those around him.[7][4]

Deborah Gregg would subsequently take over the business. Gregg's endurance racing partner, Hurley Haywood, would assist Deborah Gregg (herself a racer) as she took the position of Owner/CEO at Brumos Motorcars. Deborah Gregg became a successful driver in the Trans Am and endurance series driving for Brumos in the 80s, following in her late husband's foot steps.[8] She re-married and sold the dealerships in the mid 90s.

In 1991, Brumos Porsche entered a two-car Porsche team in the newly created IMSA SuperCar series and won three straight manufacturer’s championships for Porsche with a pair of traditional white, red, and blue 911 Turbos. Peter's son, Simon, later competed as a driver, partipicated in Trans-Am and the GrandAm Series.[9]
[edit] Awards

    * Gregg was inducted into the International Motorsports Hall of Fame in 1992.
    * He was inducted in the Motorsports Hall of Fame of America in 2000.

http://www.argusbenefitsonline.com/brumos/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=51&Itemid=85

There is a picture of a dealership here, is it the one from Springfield?

QuoteBasically, due to appearance, the car dealerships have been deemed unwelcome in the historic district as non-historic uses.  I personally think that is very, very wrong.  We still have two cool historic buildings left that were indeed  built as car dealerships.  Anyone know which ones they are?

Claude Nolan Cadillac (opened in 1912 and designed by Henry Klutho).
(http://fpc.dos.state.fl.us/reference/rc17942.jpg)


Claude Nolan Cadillac building today
(http://www.prairieschooltraveler.com/html/fl/nolan/Claude-Nolan001.jpg)


Downtown Chevrolet today (opened in 1929 & designed by Carlos Schoeppl)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-8021-p1170441.JPG)

Lake, thank you for the pictures.  I have to admit, I was hoping you would have them and post them.  And also the correction on the Chevrolet dealership's architect. I have been told that the elevator that once moved Cadillac’s from floor to floor is still in the building and operational so that building could be a really cool auto museum.   I have also heard somewhere, but could not confirm, that the two story building in the middle of the east side of the 1600 block of Main (now We're For Jesus) was also a dealership. (I want to say Buick?)

Sheclown, very nice article on Brumos Porsche’s Peter Gregg.  I used Goggle and looked at the white building on fifth, and it does look similar but not exactly right - door location on the left in the dealership picture is not there and the facade around the corner door is different, but who knows.  A stop at Brumos is in order ...  besides, it's a great excuse to look at some cool cars.

That old white building certainly looks like an old dealership and the "carport" to the side does look like it is right out of the fifties, early sixties.  How about a car museum in the front and rear building with the little addition on the side of the front one as an old fashioned drive up restaurant with the cars parking under the "carport". The fast food restaurant could help raise the money to sustain the museum.  Any wealthy car collectors out there?  The building does have a place in racing history after all.

Strider
Peter Gregg was indeed a great driver.  It should be noted, his then teamate Hurley Haywood just retired from racing two weeks ago at the commencement of the running of the Rolex 24 Hours of Daytona.  It's a real shame Mr Gregg and Mr Haywood were not able to retire together.

To your note about Brumos, the racing operations were moved to South Florida a few years ago.  They do indeed have a musuem of sorts at their Atlantic Blvd location behind the Mercedes dealership.  It is housed where the race team once held operation.  I have been inside the 'musuem' and it is indeed impressive for someone who enjoys racing, however I don't believe that the general public has general access to those facilities. 
Just dreaming with unlimited resources, restoring the Claude Nolan building to its original splendor would make a fantastic automobile musuem.  Not quite the Peterson, but a scaled down version of the auto musuem in Tallahassee would be neat.  Whether or not that is feasible economically, I wouldn't know. 

I once worked in the industry, if you have any racing-related questions  :)

I don't live in Springfield so I dont have a dog in the hunt, but Main Street was definately on the verge of looking more like Cassat Ave than say Hendericks Ave before the overlay was passed.  I could see how some residents would fear the flood gates rushing back in, however I do feel that everyone deserves to state their case and sink or swim on their merits if permissible special exceptions give them the right to open their business.  I live a few blocks away from Charles and Georges Car Wash and their operations do not negatively affect my neighborhood from what I can tell.  I can only assume chemicals from the car wash do not run off into the creek feading the Ortega River nearby.  But from an operational standpoint there is no negative affect to my neighborhood.  In fact, I patron their establishment from time to time.

Strider it is funny that you specifically mentioned the building at 5th and Main as having potential for a car museum. Years ago Stephanie Greene had a customer interested in that building for just that purpose. If I remember correctly he wanted to do a car museum and restaurant. The interested party said that the owner (most likely the owners agent) was so nasty to him that he didn't want to continue looking in Springfield and only stuck around because of Steph. Unfortunately nothing ever came of it.

There are other issues with that particular piece of land.  I do not know how much they would effect it being used as a museum and restaurant.  As it was used by Brumos Porsche and many know this, I’m sure the idea has been brought up before.  Repetition sometimes is what it takes for ideas to stick and get done.

So, we have a car wash coming, a specially service shop, a transmission shop, a general repair shop, a specialty truck service and accessory shop, a hand detail shop, at least two used car dealerships and a convenience store/ gas station already on Main Street within the Historic District.  Did I miss anything?

strider.....when I dropped by the store , had a discussion with sheclown regarding what it would take to move a streetcar or something similar to a spot in Springfield.......it would be expensive unless you broke it down into something that a cherry picker or something similar could handle! What is the status on your Hot Dogs from Hell? Still a going thing or is it on hold?

The current Hogan's Creek improvement plan shows the Claude Nolan Cadillac Building as gone.  Someone needs to show the planner and the City the 1912 photo. Chris Farley says the existing facade is under the cruddy concrete panels.  It needs to be restored and stay.

The Hogan's Creek improvement plan is a conceptual plan that has not been adopted by the city.  At this point, there is also no funding set aside to purchase and demolish private property.  With that said, as long as the owner wants the building there, it will most likely stay.  Nevertheless, it is something to keep our eyes on.

This conceptual plan seems to leave the historic components of the neighborhood out of the equation.  The balustrades, the Claude Nolan Building, the original concept of the Venetian canal -- I hope if this plan ever gets to the City Council, the neighborhood will try to protect its historic assets and not let the city flood and plow over its history.

QuoteThe current Hogan's Creek improvement plan shows the Claude Nolan Cadillac Building as gone.

QuoteThis conceptual plan seems to leave the historic components of the neighborhood out of the equation.

Neither of these two statements is accurate.

An early concept showed a portion of the building altered to enable better northerly traffic access onto Main St, and SPAR Council communicated clearly to the planning consultants it did not support that suggestion. Current modified concepts show the Claude Nolan/EHT building as it currently exists. Concepts also show the restoration of Klutho and Imeson's pond at 4th & Pearl, and allow for the restoration of existing balustrades that can be saved (per a separately consulted expert whose family was apparently involved in the original balustrade casting).

The way this plan is being developed is consistent with Springfield's status as a National Historic District, AND with attempting to solve the many other problems (environmental, stormwater to name two) that exist in the system today. Don't let anyone convince you otherwise.

Thanks for the info Zoo.

Also...

"....but Main Street was definately on the verge of looking more like Cassat Ave than say Hendericks Ave before the overlay was passed."

- Cassat Avenue? No thank you!

Zoo, I did see that several buildings were recommended to go in the latest park “vision“,  but I think it is the Urban Core Vision Plan rather than the actual Hogan Creek study.  I’m sure that was what people were remembering as I think it was shown most recently.

I also do remember it being said that it was questionable to save the balustrades. Good to hear that has either changed or was incorrectly reported. As you are close to this project, perhaps you could give a complete update on another thread. It does sound like the concpets have changed somewhat as the project evolves.

FSU813 and Fieldafm, your comments about Cassat Ave. illustrates very well that the real issues with Automotive uses were the quantity and the appearance rather than the actual use.  Even a car dealership could be appropriate in Historic Springfield of done in a historic manor.

Here is an example in downtown Orlando.

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/453953216_wm9or-M.jpg)

(http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u235/mpribanic/brundagemiami-1.jpg)

Above MIAMI picture before Jax thanks to a Florida Porsche Owners Forum ( http://www.356registry.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8878 ) along with a little more history below:

Quote
Brundage moved the operations to Jacksonville, Florida in 1955. He was one of 6 distributors licensed to import Porsche in 1957 and was the distributor for 7 southern states. Other well known distributors of this time were Max Hoffman (NY) & Competition Motors (LA). In 1959 Brundage Motors changed their name to Brumos Porsche. “Brumos” was the company’s international cable address and an abbreviation for Brundage Motors on their telex receipts. In 1962 Brundage opened his first Porsche showroom at 5th & Main St. in downtown Jacksonville. After Hubert Brundage was tragically killed in 1965 while riding his motorcycle, Peter Gregg acquired the dealership. In 1968 Hurley Haywood joined Brumos and the tradition of racing excellence continued. Since that time, Brumos has become one of the most successful Porsche race teams in history. Brumos has raced several generations of Porsche’s, including the 356, 911, 914, 935, 962, 917, Porsche Riley & Porsche Fabcar. The most recent win for Brumos Racing was the 2009 Rolex 24hours of Daytona again proving that Brumos Porsche is one of the most successful Porsche race teams in history. (The above information is believed to be accurate and correct based on my research through multiple sources. However, as there is no definitive or official written history, this paragraph could contain discrepancies)
--------
Drive 'Em!

Mark Pribanic
1958 Coupe
Neptune Beach, Florida
Registry# 13617
Florida Owners Group - Trustee/Webmeister
www.356FOG.com

QuoteIn 1962 Brundage opened his first Porsche showroom at 5th & Main St. in downtown Jacksonville. After Hubert Brundage was tragically killed in 1965 while riding his motorcycle, Peter Gregg acquired the dealership. In 1968 Hurley Haywood joined Brumos and the tradition of racing excellence continued. Since that time, Brumos has become one of the most successful Porsche race teams in history. Brumos has raced several generations of Porsche’s, including the 356, 911, 914, 935, 962, 917, Porsche Riley & Porsche Fabcar. The most recent win for Brumos Racing was the 2009 Rolex 24hours of Daytona again proving that Brumos Porsche is one of the most successful Porsche race teams in history.

Good things come from investing in Springfield!

Thanks stjr!

Here is another photo related to Brundage and Porsche:

(http://www.formulavee.us/gallery/NardiWhiteside.jpg)
NardiWiteside - last time it was in Brundage hands. Modified back (cut down to reduce drag).
Brumo's Public Relations PHOTO, 961/678, Box 3095, Jacksonville 6, FLA.

QuoteThe Nardi, as it is generally called, is the result of a commission to Enrico Nardi in Italy by Hubert Brundage   for a Formula Junior using standard VW parts.   A new 1958 113 VW beetle was sent to Torino by Mr. B for Nardi to disassemble and use engine, transmission, suspension,etc. for the single seat race car. This car was the beginning of the class that we still today recognize as "Formula Vee".

http://www.formulavee.us/history/the_nardi.htm

Say, maybe there are some parts still floating around in that building on 5th and Main. ::)

This is wonderful to know.  There were really cool World Class race car drivers hanging around the streets of Springfield -- in our not-so-distant past.

From Florida State Archives, auto show in Jax featuring Brundage Motors (looks like the Armory Building to me):

(http://fpc.dos.state.fl.us/rfisher/RF01167.jpg)

QuoteSign in the middle of the image reads, "Brundage Motors". The car under the VW logo is a Karmann Ghia.

Here are some more photos from the Florida State Archives under search for "Auto Jacksonville" that may relate to Downtown or Springfield based on the types of buildings.  Anyone recognize any of them?

(http://fpc.dos.state.fl.us/spottswood/sp02368.jpg)

(http://fpc.dos.state.fl.us/spottswood/sp00135.jpg)


(http://fpc.dos.state.fl.us/spottswood/sp00133.jpg)

(http://fpc.dos.state.fl.us/spottswood/sp02038.jpg)


(http://fpc.dos.state.fl.us/spottswood/sp00267.jpg)

Quote from: stjr on February 15, 2010, 09:51:06 PM
Here are some more photos from the Florida State Archives under search for "Auto Jacksonville" that may relate to Downtown or Springfield based on the types of buildings.  Anyone recognize any of them?
(http://fpc.dos.state.fl.us/spottswood/sp00133.jpg)

I know this one! This looks different today, but it is at 6th and main, and is the home of AA Auto and Mike and Waffas!

^Wow, that's a big change.

That was unnecessary, Zoo. I don't try to convince people of falsehoods. You just said the plan had been altered, and the original plan is all I've seen at SPAR meetings. Has the community been presented the most current concept and I missed it? I don't think I've missed a SPAR member's meeting since the original concept was introduced to the community.

On the plan I saw at the SPAR meeting to introduce the concept, there was green space on the corner of Main and Orange. I wasn't sure, so I asked (edit to clarify) a member of the design firm. (end edit.)  At the vision meeting at the Karpelis, we were told (edit to clarify) by the design firm (end edit) it would be too expensive to replicate the original balustrades.

I'm glad to hear the voices of the community were heard when we protested the importance of both the historic Klutho building and the historic balustrades at the meetings.

It would be nice to see the most current design at the April SPAR member's meeting. Can you arrange it?

Quote from: stephendare on February 16, 2010, 08:32:57 AM
In fact, it would probably be a good idea to take this Hogans Creek design process online, so that there are constant updates and people can see the process and make input.

That is a great idea.

At this stage of the project, it is not likely any further research/planning for it will occur online -- it has already mostly occurred over the course of this past year, and the master plan is nearing its completion.

The planning included several community interviews and small-scale focus groups in late Spring '09, an online survey by PPS, and two larger input sessions each for residents and other stakeholders (in Jul and Sep, if I recall correctly). Following this, the community held an additional meeting on Oct 29 at which first concepts were presented and feedback received. All three of the larger community input meetings (dates, times, locations) were announced and publicized on this and other urban blogs/pages and in SPAR's weekly update emails.

This is the City's project, and anytime someone has reached out to me to be involved in providing input/ideas, I have notified them of the next input session or suggested they get in touch with the Parks & Rec Dept representative to convey their thoughts. This is where any request to put online or not should also be directed.

On a separate note regarding project-based online information collection/participation, I agree this is a good idea. However, I would also warn that one of the fallacies of the online input process is that participants, while being listened to, often get the idea they will see their input included in the final plan. Anyone who has participated in the online surveys by JTA and the COJ's past year budget process knows that is not always the case (or Springfield would have more transportation and budget attention than we currently do).

As has been shown on these forums many times over, there are so many differing opinions in Springfield alone (and we have to include Downtown and the larger region in the Hogans Creek Parks project, too), there will always be at least 2 sides and someone will not get their idea implemented -- in every case, someone will "lose."

Truth:

QuoteCurrent modified concepts show the Claude Nolan/EHT building as it currently exists. Concepts also show the restoration of Klutho and Imeson's pond at 4th & Pearl, and allow for the restoration of existing balustrades that can be saved (per a separately consulted expert whose family was apparently involved in the original balustrade casting).

The way this plan is being developed is consistent with Springfield's status as a National Historic District, AND with attempting to solve the many other problems (environmental, stormwater to name two) that exist in the system today.

Debbie, I apologize if it seemed I believed you to be attempting to persuade others using false information. While your earlier statement is now incorrect due to the community's feedback (including yours), my "Don't let anyone convince you otherwise" comment was more in response to this false statement:

QuoteQuote
This conceptual plan seems to leave the historic components of the neighborhood out of the equation.

Btw, that change at Mike's Auto at 6th & Main is significant. I rather like the way the old "storefront" came up to the street edge, subtly concealing the autos parked out front awaiting service. I'd guess this treatment also made visibility better coming from the south. Anyone showed this to Mike?

Here is the original plan that was posted here back in November.

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2009-nov-hogans-creek-park-master-plan

I think this is the graphic Debbie Thompson was referring to:

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/716772916_BZGuj-M.jpg)

In that graphic the most significant portion (the front facade and interior) of the Claude Nolan building is demolished.

Yes, Lunican, that is the early conceptual drawing that was presented on Oct 29 that has been changed per community and City input. When the City is ready to release further information, they will.

QuoteWhen you have a lot of great ideas, then obviously a number of them wont get implemented, but limiting yourself to a few 'ok' ideas isnt really an acceptable alternative to someone being mad that their idea wasnt used.

Unfortunately, many people who I expect would have had great ideas to contribute did not participate in any of the various ways input was collected. If you don't show up when your opinions are asked for, you can expect to be heard anytime, but may not see associated results. On the fortunate side, an endless number of great ideas came from within the community, from the City and its various departments, from the Downtown and regional audiences, from major corporate and institutional stakeholders, and from two major international consulting companies with significant experience in public space planning. If the project goal had been to limit input "to a few 'ok' ideas" you would have been contacted.

Zoo, if you don't have any further information because you are out of the loop, then fine, just say that.  You are coming across like you are complaining that anyone asked you for information. As it does seem like this project has moved ahead further and it has been indicated in the past that you were a good and important contact for information on this project.  If you are not any longer, sorry, don't take that out on us.

I also believe that some may have (possibly mistakenly) assumed that the best interests of the community were going to be looked after by various organizations and so the input that was put forth on this and other  forums would have made it to the organizational meetings for this project.  Was that not the case?

Meanwhile, unless this Hogan’s Creek project has been finalized and is on it's way to being funded, it does still seem like new ideas could considered.

Who else thinks it would be a great idea to see if Brumos Porsche would be interested in working with us and others to get a racing Porsche museum here in Springfield?  And does anyone know how much the supposed contamination at the 5th and Main site would have on that idea?

I don't understand "conceptual" at all.  As unsophisticated as I am, I don't know if a plan is a plan or a dream is just that, a dream.  What does a conceptual plan really mean, after all?

Quote from: strider on February 16, 2010, 12:10:22 PM
Who else thinks it would be a great idea to see if Brumos Porsche would be interested in working with us and others to get a racing Porsche museum here in Springfield?  And does anyone know how much the supposed contamination at the 5th and Main site would have on that idea?

A conceptual plan? 

strider...............you may consider a JEDC contact along with contacting Brumo's! If John Rood can get a Five Million Dollar Grant, along with 2 low-interest loans totaling Thirst Million plus, why not you? Brumo's may be enticed with tax incentives......several people who post on this Blog seem to swear by that mantra,ain't that right tufsu? Either way the worst that could happen is .............they say NO!

A "conceptual plan" just provides guidelines for a future project; it is preliminary.  Once a budget is established for the project the planners use the ideas in the conceptual plan to create an actual working plan.

In this case, no specific funding for the project has been announced (at least not to my knowledge).

With the burden of opening new dealerships recently, I doubt incurring the expense of moving their current musuem would be given much serious consideration.  Strider if you want a good point of contact, please let me know.

I agree though about the useage vs quality statement.  A building like the old Riverside Chevrolet would blend in with the historic fabric of Main Street quite nicely.  Whether that makes economic sense is another story.  
Service stations and car dealerships do not by themselves destroy a particular street.  In fact, its clear that b/c these businesses thrive in their locations that the economic need/incentive for these business to exist necessitates they be there.  As long as the street isn't overun with service stations, and those stations and car dealerships that remain do not litter their store frontage with broken down autombiles.  Its all about the presentation of that business.

Quote from: fieldafm on February 17, 2010, 11:25:15 AM
  Its all about the presentation of that business.

Here, here!

We need to get over the idea that certain types of businesses - automotive, convenience stores, bars, etc. -
are "bad" in any form - it truly should be "all about the presentation."

fieldafm, this idea of a museum, to make something like this work in today's economy, would/ could be done under a non-profit and would need both government and private support. And it would have to serve a larger audience, like the various car clubs, do some training and hold classes in things like race prep, mechanics, etc. (one way to involve federal funds) and be self sustaining once complete and operational. I also can’t find information on line about their current museum, which I didn’t think was really open to the general public? 

Main Street needs something like this to make it a destination.  Without it, Main Street is just another small part of a highway system that some hope to be more

Correct, it is not a 'musuem' in that sense.  I think it is meant to be kept that way.

I do very much agree it would be a very cool idea in the abstract.  As the stewarts of First Coast Racing LLC will tell you, the city certainly doesnt jump through hoops for assisting automotive endeavours like these.
Even an individual like Devoe Moore built the Tallahassee Car and Antique Musuem entirely from his own pockets and collection.

If you would like some contact info... Brumos, SCCA Bucaneer Region, First Coast Car Council, JSO's Beat the Heat liason, etc I'd be happy to give you all the contacts I have.

Quote from: fieldafm on February 18, 2010, 11:04:17 AM
Correct, it is not a 'musuem' in that sense.  I think it is meant to be kept that way.

I do very much agree it would be a very cool idea in the abstract.  As the stewarts of First Coast Racing LLC will tell you, the city certainly doesnt jump through hoops for assisting automotive endeavours like these.
Even an individual like Devoe Moore built the Tallahassee Car and Antique Musuem entirely from his own pockets and collection.

If you would like some contact info... Brumos, SCCA Bucaneer Region, First Coast Car Council, JSO's Beat the Heat liason, etc I'd be happy to give you all the contacts I have.

This man (Strider) is building a sailboat in a warehouse using pieces and parts and dreams and hopes.  His crew are guys who have cheated death on more than a few occasions, certainly have given up on themselves and their world for years -- and they now, all, have a reason to get up in the morning.  They are going to sail this boat that they are building.  Or cry trying.

(Its a bit like Noah's ark only with heavy metal T-shirts, and lots of cigarette smoke).

So who knows? 

But  p l e a s e, try not to encourage him in another endeavor.  I'll never get a new kitchen.