Jacksonville Excluded From Funded Transit List
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/600738235_GHEKE-M.jpg)
Our peers continue to implement major transit based capital projects that are proven to stimulate economic development and sustainability. The Federal Transit Administration recently unveiled their list of capital projects recommended for major financing. Cities such as Orlando, Salt Lake City, Denver, Honolulu, Minneapolis and Houston are big winners. Not surprisingly, Jacksonville was no where to be found. Are we falling further behind in the economic development race?
Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2010-feb-jacksonville-excluded-from-funded-transit-list
Well, either our current Administration is asleep at the switch (like normal) or Tallahassee has gotten on that bus with them along with our Congressional representatives...........to me it sure seems like no one gives a damn other than a select few............I say get rid of all them and lets do it ourselves,because thats the only way something will happen in our life times (probably our next generation also!)
"Orlando, Salt Lake City, Denver, Honolulu, Minneapolis and Houston are big winners"
They have the population numbers and density to support it. Jacksonville does not. It may be chicken or egg, but Jax needs to draw more people before it can move in this direction.
From the article:
QuoteAs of 2008, Metropolitan Jacksonville (pop. 1,313,228) was estimated to have 197,599 more residents than Salt Lake City (pop. 1,115,629).
Chicken or egg? I've come to the belief that this is not a chicken or egg situation and that this is an assumption based on bad information. You don't grow to become dense enough for rail or sprawled enough for roads. Can anyone here offer an example of a city growing into rail? Nine times out of ten, the presence of good reliable mass transit was a major factor in the development of this country's densest areas in every major city. Mass transit (pedestrian oriented) builds density and roads (automobile oriented) enable sprawl. Sprawling Salt Lake City got their first rail line back in 1999 and haven't looked back since.
It's funny the question of which comes first is never asked about constructing a highway. JTB is the perfect example. There was nothing out there until JTB was built.
Salt Lake City hosted the Winter Olympics in 2002, which was probably a major reason and need for some rail into their system. Salt Lake also has a major tourism draw in mountains and skiing.
In terms of attracting national/federal attention, Jax has to up their game to compete for national funding because as it stands, there isn't much reason.
Salt Lake City is building an impressive system. No suprise...its getting high ridership and pedestrian oriented transit friendly development along the corridors. I wonder why they aren't proposing an outer beltway?
(http://www.rideuta.com/images/frontlines2015map92809.jpg)
Who knew big boxes like Dick's Sporting Goods could invest in pedestrian oriented projects? In SLC, they do.
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-4711-delts145-ssp-5.jpg)
Quote from: rjp2008 on February 10, 2010, 09:02:49 AM
Salt Lake City hosted the Winter Olympics in 2002, which was probably a major reason and need for some rail into their system. Salt Lake also has a major tourism draw in mountains and skiing.
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-4030-houstonmetrorail-wordjunky-2.jpg)
Houston used the 2004 Super Bowl to justify the construction of their 7.5 mile LRT starter line. Jacksonville lit a few bridges, repaved some roads and set up a circus on Bay Street for the 2005 Super Bowl. Today, Houston's LRT line averages 40,000 riders a day and its success has led to federal money for major LRT expansions throughout the city. On the other hand, we can't keep the Main Street Bridge's LED lights working properly. Go figure.
QuoteIn terms of attracting national/federal attention, Jax has to up their game to compete for national funding because as it stands, there isn't much reason.
What's so special about Little Rock? Some type of way they got the feds to help them fund a streetcar line in their community. Maybe one day we can shrink to be just as significant as Little Rock.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/454392130_MdcTP-M.jpg)
^^so true Lake....very sad. We can't even maintain lights properly.
We voted to let our local government use 100 mil of our local taxes for transit and they still wouldn't do it. Why would the feds look at us. I wonder if any where else in the world if a cities population has done this and been balked at by the local government.
People that post here say all the time we do not have the funding and the people of Jax won't go for it. Both of those hurdles have already been jumped the leaders here just want us to forget about it.
The circle will now continue with see the feds won't fund it so we shouldn't do anything now and the feds saying they haven't done anything even with cash in had so we won't give them more money.
Damn it.
Seriously, would you trust Jacksonville with transit dollars after the skyway disaster?
Yes, but Houston is a near 6m MSA range city, so they had a lot more money and willpower to work with.
They had vision, but having 6m in a sprawling MSA had nothing to do with a 7.5 mile line that doesn't even stretch outside of the Inner loop. In any event, for every excuse we can make with a Houston, there's a Memphis, Charlotte, Little Rock, Santa Fe, Tucson, Salt Lake City or Kenosha to take its place. Point blank, if we can lobby for multi billion dollar expressways and $200 million dollar interchanges, we can lobby or scrape the funds together for a $30-$50 million mass transit project. Its all about priorities.
The Skyway is a disaster because we have a DEAD downtown! plain and simple.
Quote from: Johnny on February 10, 2010, 09:19:44 AM
Seriously, would you trust Jacksonville with transit dollars after the skyway disaster?
To be honest, I rather for Jax to take transit dollars than highway dollars. We could do more with less, saving a ton of local money in the process.
Quote from: fsujax on February 10, 2010, 09:26:07 AM
The Skyway is a disaster because we have a DEAD downtown! plain and simple.
The skyway is incomplete. It was never intended to be a stand along mass transit system. Its like building i-295 with no interchanges or the Buckman halfway across the St. Johns, declaring completion and then complaining when no one uses it.
Why Little Rock? Clinton and his library. National clout for funds.
well, that too Lake, but even when there are special events DT the platforms are usually packed. Even with FBC Pastors Conference, you should have seen the FCCJ station after the services....lines!!
We have to show some good faith after having the feds pay for the skyway and then we reneged on our part to expand it. Where is our 100 mil in transit funds. I want it used for streetcar now.
Good points Jeffrey. We already have voter approval and we HAD the money. What happened?
We voted for transit 10 years ago and now we are hearing from local officials that we are still 20 years from considering it?
Why doesn't someone try contacting the Mayor's office and asking them? Don't you guys have a good relationship with Adam?
Quote from: rjp2008 on February 10, 2010, 09:29:35 AM
Why Little Rock? Clinton and his library. National clout for funds.
How about Kenosha or Albuquerque?
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/assets/thumbs/image.604.feature.jpg)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-2418-rail-runner_map.jpg)
I just find it hard to believe that Jax has no assets that it can capitalize off of for mass transit but we can find a way to build more expensive overpasses and highways. I just can't drink that type of kool aid.
well, in Albuquerque's case....a Governor that wanted it and funded it. We do not even have a Mayor that wants it now.
All I see in each example is where there is a will there is a way. Our leadership wants highways, so we get highways regardless of what the voters approve of. These other communities desired something different and found a way to get it, regardless of size, money and density. So it would seem that we need to stop making excuses and start holding our officials accountable.
MONORAIL!!
(http://liftlab.com/think/imgblog/monorail.gif)
Jacksonville.... ;)
(http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/05_04/035ostrich_468x538.jpg)
Well, Jax is just very stubborn, what can I say.
True. I would add a degree of ignorance to the description as well. I say this because we have no problem justifying spend more money on things that bring us less benefit, long term budget deficits and a lower quality of life.
Good luck! Been in Jax almost 10 years and it hasn't changed one bit - not even a little.
The proverbial "they" do not want change here And that sucks because Jax could be an amazing city.
Maybe that can be the new slogan - Jacksonville: the city that could have been.
Hold them accountable how? Many in Jax are not really aware of whats going on in the world outside of Jax. Its no surprise Jax is left off of another list.....The Big Small Minded Engine that Cant.
Quote from: fsujax on February 10, 2010, 08:59:18 AM
It's funny the question of which comes first is never asked about constructing a highway. JTB is the perfect example. There was nothing out there until JTB was built.
Thats a really great point.
Quote from: thebrokenforum on February 10, 2010, 10:19:47 AM
Good luck! Been in Jax almost 10 years and it hasn't changed one bit - not even a little.
The proverbial "they" do not want change here And that sucks because Jax could be an amazing city.
Maybe that can be the new slogan - Jacksonville: the city that could have been.
I've been here since 2003 and I've seen a lot of change. However, I do understand that these things don't happen overnight. I've always expected this fight to be a good 10 year process. Anyway, here are some important changes that have occurred since 2003.
1. In 2003, there was no rail talk on the radar. There was a billion dollar BRT plan or bust.
2. Now we've completed a commuter rail feasibility study and a streetcar prefeasibility study.
3. The billion dollar dedicated busway plan has been scrapped in favor of a cheaper option using existing streets.
4. The plan to convert the Bay Street entertainment district and Adams Street into a bus mall has been taken off the table.
5. We now have a mobility plan being developed that includes money for multimodal transportation improvements.
6. COJ is now looking at modifying the comp plan to make it easier to develop sustainable ped friendly development.
7. Washington's stance on mass transit has done a complete 180 since Obama took office last year, setting us up in the perfect position to push a rail oriented agenda.
8. Peyton's term ends next year, meaning we have the perfect opportunity to get a new leader in place that understands the economics of whats at play and their impact on the future of Jacksonville.
9. The Amtrak/FEC project was dead in 2003 but now its alive and kicking.
10. FDOT appears to be jumping on the rail bandwagon, thanks to wanting federal money from a government that values rail.
This stuff may not seem like much but the foundation is being layed and the stars are aligning right before our eyes. Opportunity is knocking again, we just have to open the door this time.
Quote from: Coolyfett on February 10, 2010, 10:24:03 AM
Hold them accountable how? Many in Jax are not really aware of whats going on in the world outside of Jax. Its no surprise Jax is left off of another list.....The Big Small Minded Engine that Cant.
Get educated on the issues and vote smart in 2011!
Funny how the decision was made after this announcement:
"Walking in Jacksonville is dangerous everywhere, according to a national study released Monday. It found that Jacksonville is the fourth most dangerous metropolitan area in the country for pedestrians.
The rest of Florida isn’t so safe, either: The three most dangerous areas were Orlando-Kissimmee, Tampa-St. Petersburg-Clearwater, and Miami-Fort Lauderdale-Pompano Beach."
http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2009-11-09/story/jacksonville_is_fourth_most_deadly_city_for_pedestrians
Guess Jacksonville will be on that list for a while to come. It already has been. I found an article from 2002 stating the same 4th position.
Quote from: thelakelander on February 10, 2010, 10:32:04 AM
This stuff may not seem like much but the foundation is being layed and the stars are aligning right before our eyes. Opportunity is knocking again, we just have to open the door this time.
I hear what you're saying and while there has been a lot of planning over the years I'm talking about major changes. Things that change a city's landscape and or its impact in the region. It always seems to get talked about here but it's never really implemented. There's a reason for that.
The biggest change I've seen? The Town Center...which is great but in 10 years - that's it?
I hail from Denver and I know that's not exactly a fair comparison but wow...in the time I've been here Denver has changed greatly. For one thing, their light rail system is a huge success and goes all over the city and suburbs - and it's still being added to. That wasn't like that when I was there 10 years ago. 10 Years ago it did pretty much what the rail does here in Jax.
I'm talking about major things that either attract people/tourism to the city or benefit the population that already lives there. This has been discussed to death regarding what could be in Jax...
Jax is a fantastic city and has a lot to offer. However, it just seems like it's a broken record spinning around and around. "They" don't want to change. That's very frustrating for people here that do want it to change and change drastically.
I will say this: for Denver, it all started with a single mayor.
Quote from: fsujax on February 10, 2010, 09:26:07 AM
The Skyway is a disaster because we have a DEAD downtown! plain and simple.
Why call it a disaster they never finished it. 2.5 miles of rail is nothing. They built a nothing that goes nowhere. Nowhere = Convention Center, King Ave & fccj......Even when the 5uperbowl came there was no hustle to finish at least one of the three legs. Notice everytime rail talk in Jax comes the Jta Skyway comes up??? It is the rail face of Jax. Like it or not that train represents what Jacksonville actually is. It represents, neglect, carelessness & lack of vision. Three things that COJ and its 1.3 million minds excel at. Why do the turtles keep winning the race?
Quote from: Coolyfett on February 10, 2010, 10:57:51 AM
Quote from: fsujax on February 10, 2010, 09:26:07 AM
The Skyway is a disaster because we have a DEAD downtown! plain and simple.
Why call it a disaster they never finished it. 2.5 miles of rail is nothing. They built a nothing that goes nowhere. Nowhere = Convention Center, King Ave & fccj......Even when the 5uperbowl came there was no hustle to finish at least one of the three legs. Notice everytime rail talk in Jax comes the Jta Skyway comes up??? It is the rail face of Jax. Like it or not that train represents what Jacksonville actually is. It represents, neglect, carelessness & lack of vision. Three things that COJ and its 1.3 million minds excel at. Why do the turtles keep winning the race?
This is a great point.
Look, before anyone starts talking about connecting Jax to any other city, we need to talk about connecting Jax to it self! It needs to start there. The "skyway" should connect to the stadium, the beach, and the freakin' airport! It should have at least some use.
That's where all of this energy should be focused, imo. Start local and then worry about branching out.
"It's funny the question of which comes first is never asked about constructing a highway. JTB is the perfect example. There was nothing out there until JTB was built."
- GREAT point fsujax.
Quote from: thebrokenforum on February 10, 2010, 10:52:13 AM
I hear what you're saying and while there has been a lot of planning over the years I'm talking about major changes. Things that change a city's landscape and or its impact in the region. It always seems to get talked about here but it's never really implemented. There's a reason for that.
The biggest change I've seen? The Town Center...which is great but in 10 years - that's it?
You can't have a "major" change without laying a foundation for it. Although it just popped up, SJTC was years in the making. The same goes for River City Marketplace. The reason you don't see major change in Jax on the urban front is because all we've heard was hot air. However, laying the foundation had never been followed through.
QuoteI hail from Denver and I know that's not exactly a fair comparison but wow...in the time I've been here Denver has changed greatly. For one thing, their light rail system is a huge success and goes all over the city and suburbs - and it's still being added to. That wasn't like that when I was there 10 years ago. 10 Years ago it did pretty much what the rail does here in Jax.
The major difference is that there was "background" work being done in Denver over a decade ago. A decade ago in Jax, we we're being sold that BRT was the best thing since the invention of sliced bread and too foolish to question the expiration date of the bad baloney being sold. If we would have been having the discussions that are taking place locally today....in 2000, we would have a starter line already up and running today with some fed stimulus money paying for it's expansion.
QuoteI'm talking about major things that either attract people/tourism to the city or benefit the population that already lives there. This has been discussed to death regarding what could be in Jax...
Jax is a fantastic city and has a lot to offer. However, it just seems like it's a broken record spinning around and around. "They" don't want to change. That's very frustrating for people here that do want it to change and change drastically.
I will say this: for Denver, it all started with a single mayor.
Locally, I believe the tide has already started. However, a good change in leadership could knock open the flood gates.
Quote from: fsujax on February 10, 2010, 09:32:51 AM
well, that too Lake, but even when there are special events DT the platforms are usually packed. Even with FBC Pastors Conference, you should have seen the FCCJ station after the services....lines!!
That was nothing!! Packed? Packed you say? build a station in Riverside, Springfield & San Marco where humans actual LIVE.....ill show you packed.
I place the most of the blame at the feet of poor leadership at JTA. After all, they are supposed to be our "transportation experts" looking out for us. JTA, to date, has only cared about building roads for developers, giving lip service to mass transit. Another culprit, is JTA's partner in crime, FDOT, also a long time lover of road building to the exclusion of all else.
Coincidentally, just last night/early AM, before this article was posted, I noted JTA's propensity to chase dollars that are easy because they are associated with poor quality projects few others care to do (e.g. BRT, riderless $ky-high-way) while it fails miserably pursuing the much more competitive grants for great projects like commuter rail and street cars. This article is just confirmation and validation of same.
Meanwhile, City leaders compound our misery from JTA by sitting silently on the sidelines, or worse, encouraging them to appease fat cat developers that contribute to their political campaigns. Regardless, no leadership here either.
Between 9B, 9A, the JTB/9A interchange, I-95/I-295 North and South interchanges, I-95/I-10 interchange, the BJP overpasses, the newly proposed I-295/Blanding projects, widening JTB, Brannen-Chafee, I-10/Chafee, the Downtown I95 Overland Bridge, and added lanes at I-95/JTB with more to come, over a billion dollars easy has been, or is planned to be spent, on road projects essentially within just Duval County. Yet, we can't even find a few hundred thousand dollars for bus shelters that should be an integral component of a decent bus system. That says it all about JTA, FDOT, and the City regarding mass transit to date.
You are right stjr, it's all about priorities. We drop $100 million on a useless overpass and no one even blinks.
We did have $100 million set aside for rapid transit. That money should have been used to implement well before it disappeared. You use it or lose it.
Quote from: thelakelander on February 10, 2010, 11:05:14 AM
Locally, I believe the tide has already started. However, a good change in leadership could knock open the flood gates.
Again, Lake - great points. But when does that tide come in? 20 years from now?
Why not 2011? We have a chance to elect a new mayor. This is the time to make the topic a key issue in the upcoming election.
Quote from: Lunican on February 10, 2010, 11:17:10 AM
You are right stjr, it's all about priorities. We drop $100 million on a useless overpass and no one even blinks.
And, just think if we did with one less $100 million overpass and invested that money in our grossly underfunded education system! We are becoming a very sick society if our spending priorities are any guide. >:(
These types of transportation projects can spur economic and other type growths within the city; its definitely not a "chicken and egg" thing or issue; and...its not a "build it and they will come" thing or issue either. Jax has the infrastructure, population, and potential to field these transportation projects whether rail, commercial, metro, or otherwise. As someone said, we need wise leaders who are willing to convince both State and Federal governments that we do have what it takes to be granted or even acquire/ask for the funds to build these projects; sadly, our State, Federal and even local leaders have no faith in Jacksonville (our history in this respect may have a lot to do with it) and don't see it that way.
"HU"
Quote from: thelakelander on February 10, 2010, 11:32:32 AM
Why not 2011? We have a chance to elect a new mayor. This is the time to make the topic a key issue in the upcoming election.
Agreed. But I am hoping for someone with some vision and the guts to get that vision implemented. Is there a candidate like that running?
I am expecting more of the same but I'm a pessimist. ;)
My outlook is we force the vision instead of waiting for candidates to come up with visions on their own.
Where's the $100 million???? I know there are some folks over at JTA just waiting to spend it and build a darn streetcar line!
My outlook is we force the vision instead of waiting for candidates to come up with visions on their own.
[/quote]
Excellent insight and comment.
We get the government we deserve.
It's simple: Our focus has been Illusion. Sprawl. ***The Beltway*** the latest aspect to emerge.
And double speak. The sprawl machine well oiled by a Mayor who-briefly- exclaimed we can not build our way out of conjestion.
Yeah...........I believe he also said "Run the City like a business"! Yup...........I take everything that Johnny says with a barrel of salt!
The city leaders that are against urban core developement, need to be voted out or office! That is, if we can bring awareness to the cause that, making Jacksonville a real city again would be benafical to all who live here in so many ways.
No offence to you Southerners, but I think that we need to elect city leaders who are not from here. Yankees know how to build cities. Just look at New York, Boston, Philadelphia and even Baltimore, just to name a few! Let's get some of them in our city council, and an actual city will rise from these ashes we call, Downtown Jacksonville.
Quote from: urbaknight on February 10, 2010, 09:34:01 PM
The city leaders that are against urban core developement, need to be voted out or office!
hardly any of them would say they are against downtown/urban core.
Quote from: urbaknight on February 10, 2010, 09:42:39 PM
No offence to you Southerners, but I think that we need to elect city leaders who are not from here. Yankees know how to build cities. Just look at New York, Boston, Philadelphia and even Baltimore, just to name a few! Let's get some of them in our city council, and an actual city will rise from these ashes we call, Downtown Jacksonville.
well, those cities were all built long before current northerners were born.
Lake, can you become planning consultant for one of the candidates? Preferably one that stands a good chance of winning?
The "we can't build anything because we don't have density" argument is unpersuasive. because most of the cities discussed above (Houston, Orlando, etc.) are spread out Sun Belt cities JUST LIKE JACKSONVILLE.
According to the latest Texas Transportation Institute urban mobility study, Jacksonville has 1377 people per square mile (regionwide, not just in Duval County). Atlanta (which has two subway lines) has 1444, only a tiny bit more.
Quote from: urbaknight on February 10, 2010, 09:42:39 PM
No offence to you Southerners, but I think that we need to elect city leaders who are not from here. Yankees know how to build cities. Just look at New York, Boston, Philadelphia and even Baltimore, just to name a few! Let's get some of them in our city council, and an actual city will rise from these ashes we call, Downtown Jacksonville.
And Detroit, Cleveland, Kansas City, Newark, Rochester and other such successful and thriving places.
To be fair, Jacksonville had built a great city, but then it all got torn down.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/History/Historic-Images-Florida/Forsyth-Main/574193759_h2Psn-M.jpg)
actually Kansas City is on the way back up (our Chamber just visited there for ideas)....and Newark is making great strides under Mayor Booker.
Let's just fudge some numbers on the census inquiry... we'll show Jax has double in population and needs funds for transportation and education immediately!
What is stupid about the census is that people get offended by what is on the form, then bitch about city services or lack of. Hmm, if you would jsut fill out the damn form, then maybe we'd get our fair share or everything, doesn't seem that hard. These are usually the same people saying that it infringes on their privacy.
Quote from: stephendare on February 11, 2010, 11:35:48 AM
Quote from: Shwaz on February 11, 2010, 11:23:27 AM
Let's just fudge some numbers on the census inquiry... we'll show Jax has double in population and needs funds for transportation and education immediately!
Funny you say that, Schwaz. Every other city fights and squabbles with the Feds over the census counts. The census bureau invariably undercounts the number of people. Jacksonville could care less that we are undercounted, and we always end up getting less than our fair share of consideration from the tax money we send to washington as a result.
This doesn't surprise me at all.
Quote from: reednavy on February 11, 2010, 11:39:18 AM
What is stupid about the census is that people get offended by what is on the form, then bitch about city services or lack of. Hmm, if you would jsut fill out the damn form, then maybe we'd get our fair share or everything, doesn't seem that hard. These are usually the same people saying that it infringes on their privacy.
I could definitely see parts of Jax as candidates for census worker shootings...
If anyone thinks the census is intrusive on your privacy then they have never been audited by the IRS! LOL!