A Vision For Jacksonville's Southside
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/782182749_tL4Bd-M.jpg)
Metro Jacksonville highlights the Guiding Principles of the City of Jacksonville's Southeast Vision Plan.
Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2010-feb-a-vision-for-jacksonvilles-southside
That's a great article.
Ok, so that is awesome. But my question is HOW do you make it happen? I get that once mass transit is announced developers buy up land. But this article, and this whole site for that matter, I always get a sense that this can be done with a "I Dream of Genie" wink and the resources appear to make it happen. I would love for this to happen, looks great, very "big city". This just looks impossible, and I am told I am an optimist. Do other cities do it this way, or do they already have the land rights way before development has started?
Money and much more people. Less consolidation. I think many locals prefer the small town feel of the area and would resist this kind of bigger city urban development.
I think a good first step to this plan would be to allocate money more responsibly for smarter, more sustainable development. River Oaks park really is underutilized. More money also needs to be allocated to TODs.
The Article Looks Great!!
Quote from: rjp2008 on February 09, 2010, 09:34:42 AM
Money and much more people. Less consolidation. I think many locals prefer the small town feel of the area and would resist this kind of bigger city urban development.
You are right that is a fear here and one of the things we need to educate people about. Adding life to an urban core and some dense development lines enhance surrounding suburban and rural lifestyles. Right now we sprawl suburbia over our rural areas destroying those rural lifestyles. Then the unsustainable of the new sprawl developments devalue the suburban homes that have come before causing suburban blight. If only the newest have elevated value then homes lose their investment value. If we manage our growth to concentrate on urban and infill it is good for all of us.
We have a billion dollar budget. We continue to spend money we already have on unsustainable ideas and sprawl producing projects. What we need is a change in our financial priorities and a promise to actually implement a vision or plan for a change. We don't have to recreate the wheel. Just take a look at what sprawlers like Phoenix, Houston, Charlotte and Nashville are doing and apply their successful concepts locally.
This looks fantastic. Who put this together?
Example:
Goal: You want to develop a starter rail line to start implementing the vision.
Problem: It will cost you around/under $10 million/mile and you don't have the money. You're broke but you have $45 million set aside for an isolated interchange at Atlantic and Kernan Blvds.
Solution: Improve the intersection with a cheaper at-grade alternative and spend the remaining $35 - 40 million on the design and construction of a basic no-frills 4-5 mile starter rail line.
Result: Foundation for vision plan moves forward without raising taxes.
Quote from: Tripoli1711 on February 09, 2010, 10:03:35 AM
This looks fantastic. Who put this together?
Zyscovich Architects out of Miami.
Quote from: thelakelander on February 09, 2010, 10:08:51 AM
Problem: It will cost you around/under $10 million/mile and you don't have the money. You're broke but you have $45 million set aside for an isolated interchange at Atlantic and Kernan Blvds.
Solution: Improve the intersection with a cheaper at-grade alternative and spend the remaining $35 - 40 million on the design and construction of a basic no-frills 4-5 mile starter rail line.
I don't disagree...but remember that the Better Jax Plan was a compilation of ideas/projects to satisy just about everyone.....sigificant changes to this project may anger folks as much as losing the $100 million for transit ROW....or the increased cost of the courthouse.
Of course the point is moot now that the interchange is open.
Don't take it literally, this is an example (a project most are familiar with that I can use to relate cost and strategy) of the discussion that needs to take place. There seems to be a misconception on the price of projects with things we actually already spend money on that don't deliver the same benefits. Until we can bridge that link and sell it, the entire idea will tread water locally.
Fantastic article.
There really isn't much money needed to redesign the zoning and land use overlays. Once that is done, new infill will follow a pedestrian friendly layout naturally. All that will be necessary then is the implementation of transit corridors (that's where the money comes into play). We can, however, have more pedestrian friendly nodes and corridors without transit. Just look at the historic areas we enjoy already.
Quote from: rjp2008 on February 09, 2010, 09:34:42 AM
Money and much more people. Less consolidation. I think many locals prefer the small town feel of the area and would resist this kind of bigger city urban development.
To me, a dense and smart urban neighborhood feels more small town than SJTC. The town center just feels like disneyworld or anywhere, USA. San Marco Square, Avondale, Riverside, and the beach hubs are what feel like small towns, and those are the areas that are beginning to incorporate density (with the exception of Avondale).
Good point, Jason. If we can change the setback requirements in our zoning codes, all new development would have to be built in a more pedestrian friendly manner, which would really help along existing and proposed mass transit corridors.
Quote from: Captain Zissou on February 09, 2010, 11:19:09 AM
Quote from: rjp2008 on February 09, 2010, 09:34:42 AM
Money and much more people. Less consolidation. I think many locals prefer the small town feel of the area and would resist this kind of bigger city urban development.
To me, a dense and smart urban neighborhood feels more small town than SJTC. The town center just feels like disneyworld or anywhere, USA. San Marco Square, Avondale, Riverside, and the beach hubs are what feel like small towns, and those are the areas that are beginning to incorporate density (with the exception of Avondale).
SJTC is a traditional regional mall without a roof. Nothing more, nothing less.
Quote from: thelakelander on February 09, 2010, 10:24:43 AM
There seems to be a misconception on the price of projects with things we actually already spend money on that don't deliver the same benefits. Until we can bridge that link and sell it, the entire idea will tread water locally.
Agreed...I surprised a few folks last week when I told them we could build a streetcar system connecting Riverside, Downtown, Stadium, and Springfield for $100 million....and that most of our major interchange projects were costing more than that these days!
Yes, Mullaney was suprised when we told him that it would cost less to build a streetcar from Riverside to DT than it cost for the construction of the Beach/Kernan overpass ($43 million). Since we had internet access at our meeting, we immediately pulled up information and photos of streetcar projects in Little Rock and Memphis as visual examples. It was one thing to preach it but being able to offer visual proof (on the spot) of successful implementation and resulting TOD (in cities Jax's size and smaller), then tying it in to his vision (the one from his KC trip) was pretty impactful.
When you think about the fact that the I-10/I-95 interchange is going to cost 148 million in construction alone (205 million total), it is really eye-opening. What are the totoal benefits of that project compared with building a streetcar system that would cost roughly half that amount (or less)? I'm not saying we don't need a new interchange, but I see much more benefit (direct and indirect) with a streetcar system than I do with this interchange. And this is only one example, there are many.
Lake, is the total document available over the internet to view? There are references to detailed pages I would like to see but I don't see any links.
Was this study done for the City of Jax? What do the users plan to do with this next?
Is the full plan available for download?
edit - Sorry, I didn't see stjr's post asking the same question. Anyway, I'd love to see the documents if they are available.
Info. on all 3 vision plans currently underway can be found here
http://www.coj.net/Departments/Planning+and+Development/Community+Planning/Visioning.htm
This is great. It all begins with a vision. Many of you need to have a positive outlook and hope for the best rather than look at this negatively.
It's improvements like these that drive people to our city and can help fund it in the future. Cities across the country take steps like this to better themselves and Jacksonville really needs to start.
I'm just curious how these Vision Plans fit in a "no vision, no plan" administration...any thoughts CS ;D
Jacksonville won't go for it unless all those modern glass buildings in the rendering look like faux Mediterranean revival buildings cheaply built out of eifs!
tufsu.............still going through all of the links right now...........vision is real nice, but a plan to reproduce the pretty pictures......don't see anything about it yet! Real easy to draw color pictures, I could do that, but to have something spring into reality, something completely different! Talk is real cheap and so is the art work, don't see anything about funding or making it come to life! Try walking across Southside Blvd at rush hour, you will understand just what I refer too! NTPO had come up with plans to upgrade Bay Meadows and don't see anything about that being integrated into an overall concept.........once again wish in one hand, excrete in the other and see which fills up first!
Quote from: cline on February 09, 2010, 11:43:42 AM
When you think about the fact that the I-10/I-95 interchange is going to cost 148 million in construction alone (205 million total), it is really eye-opening. What are the totoal benefits of that project compared with building a streetcar system that would cost roughly half that amount (or less)? I'm not saying we don't need a new interchange, but I see much more benefit (direct and indirect) with a streetcar system than I do with this interchange. And this is only one example, there are many.
Good point. This is a problem we're going to be facing more and more. All of our aging infrastructure will need to be replaced soon, often times with little to no capacity/efficiency improvements. In a lot of cases, it's essentially like millions of dollars are being spent simply to replace what already exists. As you said, it's necessary but it can be a little disheartening.
MJ ran an article about a year ago on the overland bridge replacement project that will get going underway soon. It's $170+ million just to replace the bridge. Again, no one is saying it's not necessary, but at some point we have to take a step back and look at the bigger picture. Even now, with the economy down and unemployement up (read: fewer cars on the road), traffic is still backed up on the major highways throughout town. What about when those cars return? We can't continue to build bigger roads because, in many places, there simply isn't room. Look at the JTB/95 interchange. They could only make small improvements because there isn't room to 'properly' reconstruct the interchange.
Adding to this problem is the 'creative' infrastructure that is prevalent throughout the area. There are far more highway engineers, planners, construction workers, etc than the equivalent rail workers. That's not to say we can do mass transit, but the average planner/engineer's response to transportation issues has just been to build more roads. This attitude is changing (with increasing pace, thankfully), but it is still a problem that needs to be overcome.
As Lake said, would it not be better to implement cheaper road fixes and spend the savings on mass transit infrastructure? We can't continue to spend so much money just replacing existing roadways that are already overburdened at peak hours. By investing in mass transit, we can take cars off the roads, making our roadways better without spending a dime on the roads themselves. We're getting there, but the public, politicians, and the designers and construction workers all need to continue to be educated on the issues.
they need to think something up for the north side,
Quote from: OhJay on February 09, 2010, 07:36:03 PM
they need to think something up for the north side,
Northside and Westside? Bah, who cares about those. Its all about the Southside and beaches. You need to move there. Closer to jobs, you cost the city less in road repair from commutes, and you too can live the american dream!
Seriously though, Westside and Northside will always be a second thought in this city. Has been this way for over 30 yrs.
Good article.
jandar...............nothing has been done to the southside in the last 14/15 years that I know of! Talk is cheap and don't see much happening now either! Supposedly the Bay Meadows corridor is ITS'd (Intelligent Traffic System) .......try going down it at any rush hour............controlled by whom or what? No change from 10 years ago that I can see and this cost us what?
Quote from: CS Foltz on February 09, 2010, 08:21:20 PM
jandar...............nothing has been done to the southside in the last 14/15 years that I know of!
Does your "nothing" include
1. completion of SR 9A
2. opening of SJTC
3. further development at Tinseltown
4. growth at UNF
5. widening of JTB
Shall we keep going?
The biggest problem for Mandarin is the suburban sprawl in Julington Creek creating traffic and various other nightmares... and that area is in St. Johns County, not Duval. Somehow I am pessimistic about the two counties getting together to do anything about it. Sigh.
Well tufsu.............(a)9A is just another developers acess along with truck traffic (b)glad to hear the doors are still open, world is a better place with another MALL (still no mass trasit to and from to speak of(c) Try getting to Tinsel Town at rush hour (outstanding planning from FDOT)(d)Glad to hear Mr Delaney is so good at his job. For what he gets paid he should be.........got nothing to do with the students and bettering them, just make that money happen!(d) JTB.....yep great job.........still not through and it cost what? Could have started a rail system for the money involved! so.............yeah.....please do continue!
So CS, you're saying..
Quote"nothing (to support sustainable development and smart growth) has been done to the southside in the last 14/15 years that I know of(because my knowledge is very limited)!"
(a) 9a isn't the best solution, but it is good to relieve traffic off 95, Phillips and Southside Blvd.
(b) SJTC is a regional mall that has brought new retailers to Jax that previously did not serve our market.
(c) Tinsel Town at rush hour? Is that because you just ate at Denny's for the early bird special and don't want to miss matinee prices? Or are you just generalizing for the overall area?
(d) Growth at a University is not a bad thing...? A larger university with more resources definitely improves the experiences and education of the students. Schools, like everything else, have economies of scale.
(e*)Widening JTB is still doing something.
I'm not a southside advocate by any means, but the Southside has enabled Jax to land huge corporations, retailers, residents, and opportunities that might have otherwise passed up Jax entirely. This is a result of poor planning and leadership for failing to incorporate these assets into the core, but at least they're here.
Tapestry Park has set a new benchmark for what faux urban development can look like, and they can't build SJTC out much more without adding density, so maybe the Southside will turn a corner.
Quote from: CS Foltz on February 09, 2010, 08:21:20 PM
jandar...............nothing has been done to the southside in the last 14/15 years that I know of! Talk is cheap and don't see much happening now either! Supposedly the Bay Meadows corridor is ITS'd (Intelligent Traffic System) .......try going down it at any rush hour............controlled by whom or what? No change from 10 years ago that I can see and this cost us what?
Tax Breaks/incentives for companies for Downtown/Northside/Westside are all but forgotten about by this current administration.
Yes, the Southside is where the bulk of the people live in Jax, but 80% of jobs should not be isolated to one location.
Southpoint is a ghost town in the evenings, yet because they continue to build businesses there, they have to expand belfort/jtb/i95 onramp.
Tinseltown is 1/4 its size after work hours. Yet you see daytime traffic there.
This is how Northside/Westside are forgotten about. Its the same as when you build a community in Clay or St Johns, you still have to commute to the southside for any work outside of retail and industrial.
Zissou - Indeed, Tapestry park is a great New Urbanist sort of development. I hope other developers take notice of how nice it is - it's a good illustration of how much can go into a site that would normally be reserved for a single office building.
As for CS Foltz - I'm not really sure where you are heading with your argument. At this point, everything north of the Dee Dot Ranch is going to be developed anyway. It's far more sustainable to develop the rest of the Soutside than acreage out in Clay, St Johns or Nassau (or Flagler or Baker). Plenty is going on in the Southside, and if the city ever fixes its zoning code, some of the newer development might even turn out OK.
I'd also be very interested in discussing the vision's recommendation for Beach Blvd. Particularly the light rail they included. It's an attractive and exciting idea to build rail on the existing road. By avoiding additional ROW acquisition, the city could build rail at a more reasonable cost.
I guess I'm just skeptical/cynical that this idea is politically feasible. Off the top of my head, I can think of the following concerns:
- Getting FDOT on board with reducing the capacity of an arterial road they control
- Getting FDOT on board with high density urban zoning along an arterial they control
- Getting public support for the two items above.
- Budgetary concerns: if recent rail projects are any indication, a 17ish mile route along Beach Blvd would cost around 1 billion dollars. That's billion with a "B." Even if Jax were responsible and cut costs like a private developer, I'm assuming it would still be at least 500 million without breaking a sweat. (This is where I'm hoping someone with more transportation planning experience might set me straight.) I just can't imagine the Jax public swallowing the cost.
- Regardless, how would you fund it? A TIF district along Beach? TIF combined with federal funds? You certainly couldn't use a sales tax or property tax increase. That would be DOA.
- Is it practical to have light rail in the right-hand lane of such a major road? The trains would either need to share the ROW with traffic, or at least have cars cross the ROW to turn right. Are there example of other American systems which successfully use this configuration. (Obviously, Houston has some severe problems with sharing the roads with cars, but that's for the opposite left-hand orientation).
QuoteI'd also be very interested in discussing the vision's recommendation for Beach Blvd. Particularly the light rail they included. It's an attractive and exciting idea to build rail on the existing road. By avoiding additional ROW acquisition, the city could build rail at a more reasonable cost.
Why limit it to Beach? Look at the medians on Beach, Atlantic, JTB, Phillips Hwy... Crape myrtles, palm trees, and weeds could be replaced with Light rail... No ROW required... :)
Captain..........let me take it from the top (a)takes 25 min's instead of 10 to make it to the I10 split, 9A helps out alot (wait till we get BRT Lanes going......who knows how much additional time)take into account rush hours (b)SJTC.....whopee.....lots of service jobs going on there, high dollar no less(wait till Wal-Mart sets up shop on one of those big empty lots that are for sale next week (c) Don't eat at Denny's anymore than I would eat at a Waffle House. Hate crowds therefore movies are out or at least not often, wife has allergy's not smart(d) Delaney earns his 300K salary, tuition's keeps going up so where is the benefit for the students? Bigger class's, more academia?(e)round file current management at JTA, reduce concrete and go to rail........but what do I know, me and all you taxpayers out there just get to pay for it! Great job JTA!
Joe..........let me remind you that, we the taxpayers, get to pay for the roads that permit developers to develope! They don't build their own roads......they get FDOT to build it for them............or they get FDOT to build them a road and charge a Toll to use it like Cecil Field Commerce Parkway or whatever it is called! Zoning won't help since it is only one way enforced just like Code Enforcement. I disagree with just plain development for the sake of development such as "Nocatee"......suburb where streets are named after trees cut down! Only thing going on that I know of is at some point Bay Meadows is supposed to be enhanced and those plans are not finalized............Southside Blvd is included but only as far as JTB......whopee!
CS...come on, you have to be smarter than this!
They need to be meeting with the Davis family and make a large development plan for their land, and not letting it go to waste. Well, too late for the Nocatee section.
^ reednavy - I was wondering about this as well. The consultants seem to assume that the Davis family is going to keep Dee Dot mostly undeveloped. They briefly reference a "SMA" area that sounds like a conservation easement program. That's a really cool plan (and probably exactly what I would suggest if I were the one writing a "vision" plan) but it definitely leaves you scratching your head about implementation.
I hope someone has actually bothered to get the Davis family's opinion on all this. Especially with the potential changes to the Florida Comp Plan laws - the landowner is going to be able to do whatever is in the future landuse element of the comp plan (which is probably low-density residential) and it won't matter a damn what the city thinks.
I guess it's no big deal either way. I'm just a guy on a message board. But I would definitely be interested in knowing what the single largest landowner in the metro area actually intends!! :)
I thought St. Joe owned the most in the JAX metro area?
Quote from: reednavy on February 10, 2010, 11:40:48 PM
I thought St. Joe owned the most in the JAX metro area?
JOE does not own much in our area at all...the majority of their land is in the panhandle
As previously discussed on another MJ thread ( http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,6223.0.html ), I would hope the Davis family would seriously consider a plan that leads to most or all of their remaining property becoming publicly preserved land. While they have done much for Jax, this would be the most enduring legacy they could leave the community with.
QuoteWhat we need is a change in our financial priorities and a promise to actually implement a vision or plan for a change.
A promise isn't enough. You need an actionable plan, and for that, you need the support of the voters and the developers (who basically own politics in Florida.) Jacksonville has plenty of plans and promises not kept thru its long history.
I would also argue that you need the desire for this kind of development. When people chose Jacksonville to live, was having a TOD-focus on development at the top of their minds? Was suburbia? Affordability? If the grand majority of people just want a nice plot of land to homestead upon, and a Wal-Mart to call their own, you're not going to find support for this kind of development.
It's also incredibly unfair to Jacksonville to use Arlington's Orange and Blue line corridors as examples to achieve. In the first place, DC's metropolitan statistical area population is nearly
five times as large as Jacksonville's, and is nearly
8 times the regional population. There was/is a pressing, population-driven need for TOD in DC and its surrounding suburbs.
In the next place, the Washington Metro is a gold-plated "Tiffany" transit system. The reason it became the 2nd most used system in the country relates to this high quality standard (conversely, because it's so damned expensive, it's also hard to expand the Metro, which is much wanted and needed up here.) So, you can't compare the truly awesome development that happened in Arlington, due in no small part to the success and middle-class appeal of the Metro, to a less-funded line elsewhere. It's just not fair. If you're promised an Arlington (upper-middle to upper-class urbanity,) and you're missing a key component (a well-funded, complete and expensive transit system,) you're probably going to be annoyed with the eventual results. (Mind you, I don't question the need for TOD...I question the use of Arlington as the model, when there are others that are more applicable.)
Finally, Arlington exists as we know it today because of the
political will of the citizens of Metro DC. In both New York City and the District, there were huge, massive political battles fought to minimize or eliminate highways from the central core of the cities. Out of this battle came the plans for the Washington Metro, and the movement of the highway in Arlington north towards the coast, with the Orange Line buried under the main drag. There was, in short, political
will to make this occur, on both the macro and the micro levels. The overall region
wanted a transit system to link cities to suburbs, and to create places in-between, like Arlington, or Bethesda...and what they are finally trying to do at Tyson's Corner with the Silver Line expansion. Individual cities, counties and districts wanted to use the transit system to create tax revenue through TOD. And individual citizens all over the urban core flat-out didn't want highways cutting through the city.
Does this plan have support at any level, beyond New Urbanist junkies like myself? Is it realistic to implement? Are the images presented as "vision" too lofty for what can actually be achieved? Is it a part of an overall, overarching metro vision, or is it an isolated corridor that connects nothing to nothing?
Let me give you a real-world example. My parents, who live in suburban South Florida, consistently vote against mass transit expansion. Consistently vote against TOD in their 'hood (currently Boca.) Why? Because they moved there for this lifestyle. They
chose suburban Florida for the heat and the yards and the gated communities and the shopping plazas,
specifically because they didn't want to live in a
city. They
do not and never will understand how I can possibly live in the depths of an urban environment, how I can pay more for less space, more noise, no car and no Wal-Mart! Mind you, this isn't for lack of
trying on my part. And it isn't for lack of
intelligence on their part. If given the
choice between urbanity and suburbia, they
choose suburbia (and indeed, considering the density of SoFla, they have much more of an urban choice they could make, and many examples to choose from...fake downtown, Main Street or real downtown included.)
So, in order for this to work, you have to figure out how many people in Jacksonville are seeking the other side of this choice, who would
choose a TOD over suburbia. How many of those would fork over their money to live in this style of development, and would give up space and affordability to live in a walking, pedestrian-friendly place. If you have the necessary critical mass who will make the trade-offs, execute the plan, and provide the choice. But if you don't, if you have people who
won't make all of the trade-offs (less space, more money, no yard, less Wal-Marts,) then you have a plan destined to fail.
Mind you, I'm a New Urbanist. I totally support TOD. But I hear this all the time up here in Metro DC, where there's an actual choice between urbanity and suburbia (unlike Florida for the most part, where the "choice" is between horizontal or vertical suburbia.) "I'd live in the city but there's not enough space." "Man, I love the city but I need my car." "I love Ballston (in Arlington,) but it costs twice as much as my place for half the space!" [SIDEBAR: ironically, in the Snowpocalypse, it's actually much, MUCH better to live in the city than the 'burbs.] You
do give up space. You
do give up drive-thru capabilities. And you
do spend more money. The pay-off for some is unmatched. I don't think I could ever not live in a city again...
...and that's why I moved
here. There are many people who aren't "city." And that's why they moved
there.
Quote from: AaroniusLives on February 11, 2010, 01:48:39 PM
QuoteWhat we need is a change in our financial priorities and a promise to actually implement a vision or plan for a change.
A promise isn't enough. You need an actionable plan, and for that, you need the support of the voters and the developers (who basically own politics in Florida.) Jacksonville has plenty of plans and promises not kept thru its long history.
I would also argue that you need the desire for this kind of development. When people chose Jacksonville to live, was having a TOD-focus on development at the top of their minds? Was suburbia? Affordability? If the grand majority of people just want a nice plot of land to homestead upon, and a Wal-Mart to call their own, you're not going to find support for this kind of development.
It's also incredibly unfair to Jacksonville to use Arlington's Orange and Blue line corridors as examples to achieve. In the first place, DC's metropolitan statistical area population is nearly five times as large as Jacksonville's, and is nearly 8 times the regional population. There was/is a pressing, population-driven need for TOD in DC and its surrounding suburbs.
In the next place, the Washington Metro is a gold-plated "Tiffany" transit system. The reason it became the 2nd most used system in the country relates to this high quality standard (conversely, because it's so damned expensive, it's also hard to expand the Metro, which is much wanted and needed up here.) So, you can't compare the truly awesome development that happened in Arlington, due in no small part to the success and middle-class appeal of the Metro, to a less-funded line elsewhere. It's just not fair. If you're promised an Arlington (upper-middle to upper-class urbanity,) and you're missing a key component (a well-funded, complete and expensive transit system,) you're probably going to be annoyed with the eventual results. (Mind you, I don't question the need for TOD...I question the use of Arlington as the model, when there are others that are more applicable.)
Finally, Arlington exists as we know it today because of the political will of the citizens of Metro DC. In both New York City and the District, there were huge, massive political battles fought to minimize or eliminate highways from the central core of the cities. Out of this battle came the plans for the Washington Metro, and the movement of the highway in Arlington north towards the coast, with the Orange Line buried under the main drag. There was, in short, political will to make this occur, on both the macro and the micro levels. The overall region wanted a transit system to link cities to suburbs, and to create places in-between, like Arlington, or Bethesda...and what they are finally trying to do at Tyson's Corner with the Silver Line expansion. Individual cities, counties and districts wanted to use the transit system to create tax revenue through TOD. And individual citizens all over the urban core flat-out didn't want highways cutting through the city.
Does this plan have support at any level, beyond New Urbanist junkies like myself? Is it realistic to implement? Are the images presented as "vision" too lofty for what can actually be achieved? Is it a part of an overall, overarching metro vision, or is it an isolated corridor that connects nothing to nothing?
Let me give you a real-world example. My parents, who live in suburban South Florida, consistently vote against mass transit expansion. Consistently vote against TOD in their 'hood (currently Boca.) Why? Because they moved there for this lifestyle. They chose suburban Florida for the heat and the yards and the gated communities and the shopping plazas, specifically because they didn't want to live in a city. They do not and never will understand how I can possibly live in the depths of an urban environment, how I can pay more for less space, more noise, no car and no Wal-Mart! Mind you, this isn't for lack of trying on my part. And it isn't for lack of intelligence on their part. If given the choice between urbanity and suburbia, they choose suburbia (and indeed, considering the density of SoFla, they have much more of an urban choice they could make, and many examples to choose from...fake downtown, Main Street or real downtown included.)
So, in order for this to work, you have to figure out how many people in Jacksonville are seeking the other side of this choice, who would choose a TOD over suburbia. How many of those would fork over their money to live in this style of development, and would give up space and affordability to live in a walking, pedestrian-friendly place. If you have the necessary critical mass who will make the trade-offs, execute the plan, and provide the choice. But if you don't, if you have people who won't make all of the trade-offs (less space, more money, no yard, less Wal-Marts,) then you have a plan destined to fail.
Mind you, I'm a New Urbanist. I totally support TOD. But I hear this all the time up here in Metro DC, where there's an actual choice between urbanity and suburbia (unlike Florida for the most part, where the "choice" is between horizontal or vertical suburbia.) "I'd live in the city but there's not enough space." "Man, I love the city but I need my car." "I love Ballston (in Arlington,) but it costs twice as much as my place for half the space!" [SIDEBAR: ironically, in the Snowpocalypse, it's actually much, MUCH better to live in the city than the 'burbs.] You do give up space. You do give up drive-thru capabilities. And you do spend more money. The pay-off for some is unmatched. I don't think I could ever not live in a city again...
...and that's why I moved here. There are many people who aren't "city." And that's why they moved there.
Best thing I have seen written in a long time.
Sportmotor................I agree!
tufsu.......you have to take into account..........lip service for how many years, before Delaney to now and all we get is a waste of our resources (Ship Yards $36 Million plus), Trail Ridge still counting,Jaxport Tony Nelson they are guessing what that cost was(Scott Teagle 300k plus, Inspector Generals Office $7 Million plus, AMIO's all 227 @ $27 Million Year,Vesco, not only a $5 Million Dollar grant but $34 Million plus in a low cost loan of 1.5 % for one and 1.4 % for the other! Don't forget JEDC and the money they hand out..........our tax dollars one more time and I get upset because we don't have anything to show for the Millions that have been handed out! DO WE? Vision and a plan is one thing.........but I need to find out just what City Hall is on so I can make sure I don't get any big guy!