Will Jacksonville ever get its act together...I have noticed out of the whole 20 years I have been here, Jacksonville had become a big retirement home. We are the biggest city in the united states (IN LAND AREA) and we put our land to waist. will Jacksonville ever be the city to attract tourists. will youth in Jacksonville be able to enjoy our city. I'm 25 and the only reason I'm here is because of my university, i love Jacksonville and we have so much potential to be a great city but we don't take advantage of it. Will Jacksonville ever get the chance to have a NBA Team, a MLB Team, a Nice facility to host our NBA Games, as well as a well loved NFL team, which is on the rocks. Jacksonville needs some sort of attraction, i suggest a theme park of some sort. look at what Busch gardens has done for Tampa bay. If you go to a city like Miami, they don't even have a amusement park but they attract people from across the world. If you look at Miami's skyline and look at ours they put us to shame...I have just one question...WILL JACKSONVILLE EVER GET THEIR ACT TOGETHER.
OhJay..............really good question! Under the guidance of the current Administration short answer is NO! Long answer is MAYBE if we start a concentrated effort to take back our City..........but I have a question for you..........where would you put a theme park in at? How would you fund said park?
Good question...well i really wouldn't say a theme park inside of Jacksonville, but a theme park in the first coast area, because some in the first coast area don't want to drive a whole 2 1/2 hours to Orlando, I think if we can find land in the first coast area big enough i think that can be achieved in the near future
on the whole funding tip, thats up to the person who would come up with the concept, if the jacksonville administration considered to create a theme park it would take some time because They don't have a slight idea of what to do with our city, now if some millionaire comes out the blue (which i doubt) and says this is where i want my theme park then maybe we can get this ball rolling.
This town hardly supports minor league soccer or hockey, I cant recall any basketball, but it does support the minor league baseball, not sure if it would for major league on any of the said mentioned.
Although I am not sure why everyone thinks we need to be like this city or that city, Jacksonville needs its OWN identity we arnt New York, Chicago, Orlando or San Francisco. We just need to be Jacksonville.
yes we do need our identity, but at the same time we need some attraction or some influence to have our own identity.
I disagree although it would help, we dont NEED one. I think it just needs a clean up.
we need something in the city that everyone can enjoy
Good question Ohjay; in my opinion it starts with leadership and its leaders being focused with realistic goals that the administration and the citizens can embrace. If the leadership pitches it (a good solid sell of those goals), and the public bites, it will become reality and it will be successful. But our leaders are poor judges, poor leaders, are not focused, and don't have a clue relative to what Jacksonville should be or can be. They try to mimick other cities instead of looking at what Jax already has, capitalize on it, are aware of Jax's history and capitalize on that, and the great potential already at our finger tips and at our disposal. We need leaders that are original and not copy cats, and that know what Jacksonville was, what it now is, and the great potential that it can be.
"HU"
(http://jaxhistory.com/Sub-Tropical-Exposition.jpg)
Sub-Tropical Exposition 1888, Main Street, Jacksonville(http://i617.photobucket.com/albums/tt260/archereye/1962_Seattle_Worlds_Fair_model_PC_0.jpg)
Seattle Exposition 1962Two Observations...
1. Thanks to a nationwide media attack on the Jaguars, we are now the "attendance joke," of the USA... Earned or not, fair or not, we now occupy every sports talk show, in every tiny station, from Oklahoma to Omaha. Armed with this erroneous knowledge there isn't a sport's league in the world that would seriously consider us for placement of another team.
Once again, like it or not, we have to prove our metal. We either make them eat shit by blowing the Jaguar attendance figures through the roof, and equally supporting the SHARKS, as well as every other tiny franchise, or we bite the dust for another 50 years or so...
2. Theme Parks are great, they can as we have seen in Anaheim and Orlando, create vibrant growth... but it's been helter skelter at best. Agreed that we could stand some rapid growth, Miami's Skyline should by rights be our Skyline, but we made some stupid progress killing decisions that assured everything went SOUTH! I think we'd be much better off with a careful quality of life approach, rather then grabbing for a quick fix.
We do have a couple of historic opportunities to create unique "theme parks," but nothing like anything offered in Central Florida. Frankly a start-up park trying to compete for some of Disney/Universal/Busch/Sea World's bucks would be paramount to corporate suicide.
We once had one of the coolest midways on any beach between Key West and Cony Island. If someone would take the investment bucks to our beaches, and plop down a hotel and a couple of blocks of beachside fun, 1920's style, we would have something once again, that Orlando could NEVER match, and it doesn't have to be a Billion Dollar project to win.
Our history at DIXIELAND, the trolley park on the southbank, no doubt borrowed much of it's flair from the "Sub-Tropical Exposition of 1888," which was on Main Street. (In fact if you want to mourn the loss of any building, this is YOUR building...) If we really want to persue a completely different path, I'd submit to all of you that a "Worlds Fair" on the JEA site, with duplication of much of the Sub-Tropical Theme of 1888, would be a blow-out attraction. The fair would serve to kick off the attraction, as the buildings could be recycled as a recreation facility, museums, and cultural centers for the next 100 years. The fair has a new venue, which amounts to a small expo, and this might be the thing for us to review... Here's an example:
(http://img.groundspeak.com/waymarking/c93a1e13-9cba-459a-bb11-b6e513bbbd19.jpg)
Map of the Spokane Exposition 1974, note how the fairs are blended into the cities, unlike "theme parks." Quote
Expo '74 was an environmentally themed world's fair in Spokane, Washington that ran from 4 May to 3 November 1974.
Spokane was the smallest city to host a world's fair until Knoxville, Tennessee held the 1982 World's Fair eight years later. The theme for Expo '74 was "Celebrating Tomorrow's Fresh New Environment." The heart of the fair park grounds was located on Canada Island, Havermale Island, and the adjacent south bank of the Spokane River in the center of the city. With the exception of two pavilions, all of the major buildings were modular structures assembled on the site. The fair had 5.2 million visitors and was considered a success, nearly breaking even, revitalizing the blighted urban core, and pumping an estimated $150 million into the local economy and surrounding region.
Among the many attractions, architectural critics were intrigued by the Australian Pavilion with its 36 screen revolving audio visual platform which quickly gained an underground reputation as the place to experience something different. (The artistic director for the project was film director Jonathan Dawson).
After the event closed, the exposition site became the city's 100 acre (400,000 m²) Riverfront Park, containing the former U.S. Pavilion and a clock tower (part of a Great Northern rail depot that was demolished for Expo '74), which prominently featured the park's logo.
Several structures built for the fair are still standing. The United States Pavilion still houses an IMAX theater built for the fair, as well as a winter ice rink that is put to other varied uses in the warm months. The "Sky Ride" chairlift from Expo '74 still stands as well, but not in its original place. It has since been moved to Adventureland theme park in Altoona, Iowa. The Washington State Pavillion still stands and is used as the Spokane Convention Center and the Opera House. The Carousel remains a popular attraction. It originated in Natatorium Park, which closed in 1967, and was restored for the World's Fair.
(http://web.knoxnews.com/web/worldsfair/art/model.jpg)
Knoxville Exposition 1974QuoteThe idea for a World's Fair in Knoxville came from a visit to Spokane, Washington, in 1974 that touted the benefits of the Expo for the city. W. Stewart Evans, president of the Downtown Knoxville Association, came up with the idea of hosting a fair in Knoxville and presented the to the city and the mayor.[1]
Knoxville Mayor Kyle Testerman appointed banker Jake Butcher to lead an exploratory committee on the fair, and Butcher served as the driving force behind the fair. Many Knoxvillians called it "Jake's Fair".[1] The organizing body was the Knoxville Foundation Inc.[2] There was skepticism about the ability of Knoxville, described as a "scruffy little city" by a national publication, to successfully host a World's Fair.[3]
This was the second World's Fair to be held in Tennessee, the first being the Tennessee Centennial Exposition of 1897, held in Nashville.
The 1982 World's Fair, formally known as the Knoxville International Energy Exposition, was held in Knoxville, Tennessee, in the United States. The theme of the exposition was "Energy Turns the World."
It opened on May 1, 1982, and closed on October 31, 1982 after receiving over 11 million visitors. Participating nations included Australia, Belgium, Canada, China, Denmark, Egypt, France, Greece, Hungary, Italy, Japan, Korea, Luxembourg, Mexico, Netherlands, Panama, Peru, Philippines, Saudi Arabia, United Kingdom, United States, and West Germany.
The fair was constructed on a 70-acre (280,000 m2) site between downtown Knoxville and the University of Tennessee. The core of the site primarily consisted of a deteriorating L&N railroad yard and depot. The railroad yard was demolished, with the exception of a single rail line, and the depot was renovated into a restaurant. The Sunsphere, a 266-foot (81 m) steel tower topped with a five-story gold globe, was built for the 1982 World's Fair. It still stands and remains a symbol for the city of Knoxville.
In 2002, the World's Fair Park was reopened to general events and concerts, such as Earth Fest and Greek Fest. A July 4 celebration is held there every year with the Knoxville Symphony playing a free concert with a massive fireworks display. The 2007 July 4 celebration was held in conjunction with festivities commemorating the 25th Anniversary of the 1982 World's Fair.
The following day, July 5, 2007, The Sunsphere's observation deck reopened to the public.
http://www.worldsfairs.com/Worlds_Fairs/Home.htmlOCKLAWAHA
if adventure landing was to expand and grown and purchase land big enough to build a theme park, i think Jacksonville would be very grateful, although it wouldn't compete with the disney empire or the universal studios empire, but it would be a great starter her for us to enjoy and something to call our own.
AREA ATTRACTION EVENT! COME AND HEAR IT YOURSELVES!QuoteDr. Wayne Wood
Tuesday, February 23rd, 2010
at Old St. Andrews
317 A. Philip Randolph Blvd.
7:00 p.m. reception and 7:30 p.m. program
In 1887, as California grew as a rival to Florida's tourist trade, an elaborate Sub-Tropical Exposition was built on on Main Street to lure tourists to Florida. It opened on January 12, 1888. The main building was one of the most outrageous edifices ever constructed in Jacksonville -- a spectacular structure topped by towers and minarets and which covered over an acre of ground. It was designed by the firm of Ellis & McClure. Inside the enormous hall was an electrically-lit fountain of stone and coral with a pond containing rare fish. Exhibits included a Seminole Indian camp, displays of Florida products, an art gallery, two artificial lakes, and a zoo. For a time the exposition proved highly popular. The town went ga-ga when President Grover Cleveland and his young bride came to visit the exposition.
Hear the story of this amazing chapter in Jacksonville's history as told by one of JHS's most popular speakers. Dr. Wayne Wood, author of a series of award-winning Jacksonville history books, will present rare images and discuss this fascinating historical event.
For more information, call 904-665-0064
OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: OhJay on February 08, 2010, 07:16:08 PM
Jacksonville needs some sort of attraction, i suggest a theme park of some sort. look at what Busch gardens has done for Tampa bay.
maybe I missed something...what has it done?
From the looks of the surrounding neighborhood and Busch Blvd, nothing much.
As to the rest of your post, the Miami area has 4.5 million people, the Tampa Bay area has close to 3 million....and we have 1.3 million.
I don't think a theme park makes sense geographically, there is too much in a driveable radius. However, a new trend is vacation treatments, where people get out of town for r&r while they have procedures done. Sometimes they are cosmetic procedures, sometimes they are more serious. We have the beaches, a beautiful river, and plenty of golf courses. We have UF&Shands and tons of medical facilities. It's always warm and sunny (besides today). Maybe high command (as stephendare calls them) should look into this idea. It may be something that we could use as a competitive advantage instead of always playing catch up. Oklawaha, 2300 jags tickets sold in January, last year January was 0 and the year before 13. Go Jags
Quotewe need something in the city that everyone can enjoy
Have you ever been out US 90 or Beach Blvd EAST, until you run into that glob of water at the end of Beach? AKA JACKSONVILLE BEACH? Its there for everyone of us, no cost to get on the beach and it is there 24/7 365 days a year. Enjoy it, and by the way, it is FREE.
A consortium of water parks wanted to add a water park on the northside as it was growing, but the land became too expensive and the plan died. I can't see anything more than a water park here, but a cool one tied to surfing would be great. It could function at least 8-9 months out of the year.
As previous have said, we barely support soccer or hockey here, and there are still tickets for the NCAA Round 1 and 2 available. Basketball was ranked last in a survey of needed sports in the area. There used to be a team at the beach, semi-pro but it folded with poor attendance. We need to fix and clean the river and keep the beaches, because we are a water town and we have the water to offer to people. Most people do not have all the water we have available, so showcase the water and water theme parks, if you must. Personally, I like Jax, just the way it is.
the beach has become soo overrated its not how it used to be
Quote from: downtownjag on February 09, 2010, 10:15:24 AM
Oklawaha, 2300 jags tickets sold in January, last year January was 0 and the year before 13. Go Jags
Yes, that is why I called it erroneous knowledge with regards to Jacksonville. I hope we make the whole sports universe sorry they ever picked on us!OCKLAWAHA
When the population reaches 6.3 MIL then maybe. Nba team hope so...Mlb....the Suns are a great club, lots of history with Jax...yay r nay. Man not sure how much patience you have. Mine eventually ran out and I moved at 28. Left friends and family for MORE....Some do not care about changing where they live. My opinion is with the internet its hard to keep the wool over peoples eyes the way the Jax State of Mind does over its citizens. Talk fan support, they say the team aint winning. Talk mass transit, they say Jax has no money. Talk landing major events, they say no hotel rooms and things to do. The Jax State of Mind is a cowardly thought processs. All everyone wants is options. What you are asking for is just an option. Pick up trucks and fishing is an option, driving on the expressway is an option. The issue is the Jax State of Mind forces you to only have 1 or 2 options in many situations. When you see that Metrocity X has option A, B, C, D & F and the city you live in only has options C & D, its frustrating and you start to push for and support change. People in Jax against change should not blame politics, but blame the internet. Options are important and people want their options.
Quote from: Sportmotor on February 08, 2010, 07:38:57 PM
This town hardly supports minor league soccer or hockey, I cant recall any basketball, but it does support the minor league baseball, not sure if it would for major league on any of the said mentioned.
Although I am not sure why everyone thinks we need to be like this city or that city, Jacksonville needs its OWN identity we arnt New York, Chicago, Orlando or San Francisco. We just need to be Jacksonville.
if the guy down the street owns a bimmer, a benz, and a lexus. All you own is an old benz.....your going to want what he has, especially if he is getting all the chicks. You may not be able to afford all three, but its only natural to want catch up or compete. You may even have to study the guy down the street to see how he gets down, but you can't slack off or dude is going to get a new cadillac while you still riding an old benz. No city is its own measuring stick, not even New York City.
Quote from: Coolyfett on February 12, 2010, 12:10:15 AM
if the guy down the street owns a bimmer, a benz, and a lexus. All you own is an old benz.....your going to want what he has, especially if he is getting all the chicks. You may not be able to afford all three, but its only natural to want catch up or compete. You may even have to study the guy down the street to see how he gets down, but you can't slack off or dude is going to get a new cadillac while you still riding an old benz. No city is its own measuring stick, not even New York City.
That's not true on owning the newer vehicles. (I hate being generalized with the weak minded masses)
I can walk about 25 steps into my garage to find a nice OLD 1969 Chevy Camero :3
I am very happy with my 2001 Nissan Truck.
This is where we differ, you must be the kind of person that wants what he doesn't have. I am the kinda person who is happy with what I already got. We need people who are willing to put forth the effort to make Jacksonville lovely..er and not attempt to turn Jacksonville to a jumbled up mess of ideas..*cough*
Jacksonville needs to be Jacksonville and not any other place nor measured by any other city. The city is as different from others as it is large.
Quote from: OhJay on February 11, 2010, 10:03:47 PM
the beach has become soo overrated its not how it used to be
I give up. How did it used to be?
I think we could support a scaled-down sized theme-park. Since Brooklyn and LaVilla are mostly vacant, and the Brooklyn Park Development is dead, for inside the City Limits , theres the space.. For outside, There is abundance of land in the Northside and the Southside..
Jacksonville used to have amusement Parks.... Unfortunately , along with Drive-in Theatre's These went to the dump.
Sportmotor....do you still have the Camaro?? One of my fav American Muscle Cars !! :D
Quote from: mtraininjax on February 10, 2010, 01:26:00 AM
Quotewe need something in the city that everyone can enjoy
Have you ever been out US 90 or Beach Blvd EAST, until you run into that glob of water at the end of Beach? AKA JACKSONVILLE BEACH? Its there for everyone of us, no cost to get on the beach and it is there 24/7 365 days a year. Enjoy it, and by the way, it is FREE.
When reading about Walt Disney World, I learned that one of the reasons why Walt Disney chose Central Florida is what mtraininjax touches upon in his comments - Mr. Disney did not want his theme park to compete with a nearby beach for tourists.
Fun fact: Did you know that Disneyland and Walt Disney World are both located in counties named 'Orange'? Coincidence? Hmmm...
Quote from: Sportmotor on February 08, 2010, 07:38:57 PM
This town hardly supports minor league soccer or hockey, I cant recall any basketball, but it does support the minor league baseball, not sure if it would for major league on any of the said mentioned.
Although I am not sure why everyone thinks we need to be like this city or that city, Jacksonville needs its OWN identity we arnt New York, Chicago, Orlando or San Francisco. We just need to be Jacksonville.
Thank You! 100% agree :)
Quote from: Timkin on July 17, 2010, 02:33:47 PM
Sportmotor....do you still have the Camaro?? One of my fav American Muscle Cars !! :D
Yes, currently dropping a LS engine into it.
SCHWEET!!!!!!!!!
I think a theme park is a GREAT idea...i believe ppl (atleast within the state) will come because ppl are tired of goin to the same theme parks over an over...I've been to Universal Studios atleast 5 times Islands of Adventure about 3 times (last time being the past 4th of July weekend) Busch Gardens like 3 times Disney twice Seaworld 3 times Aquatica once Six Flags of Georgia once...an not to mention it would attract Georgia residents too being that jax is right at the border line!!!
Now for a place to put it is the question...it doesnt necessarily have to be inside our county limits...could be in st.johns county between here an st. Aug. [went there today for ripley's(been there 3 times)] Or maybe even Baker county...theres nothin there so a theme park would really help development there dont you agree?
A theme park seems like a terrible idea to me. Hard to build a massive theme park without a massive parking lot. Waste of space and money.
I think Jax should start smaller (and smarter). Build a world class business school downtown. As a railroad (CSX) and shipping (JAXPORT) hq, building a school with the best operations/logistics/supply chain department in the world makes sense. Partner with UNF or UF or JU. A theme park brings in revenue through tourism, hotel/sales tax, etc, but it's not reliable, nor sustainable. I've been to Busch Gardens in Tampa, but have never considered buying a condo there. Might be different if I'd gone there for an MBA and started working in the city upon graduation.
My point: With some major Fortune 500's HQ'd in the city (CSX, Winn Dixie, Fidelity, etc.), capitalize on what you're good at. Why try to compete head to head with Disney/Busch Gardens?
Since Ock is the resident train Specialist...... Another thought for a theme park is a partial revival of Ocala's (except located in Jacksonville) Six-gun territory! I kinda think that would be cool near some Former Military Gunnery School !
It would not need to be massive. It could be Mid-sized.. Not another Universal, Disney or Six Flags.
I heard that Disney offered Jacksonville first but the mayor at the time declined... is there any truth to that?
I would have no way of knowing, but my best guess is , there is absolutely no truth to that.
That by the way would have been Mayor Hans Tanzler , no?
Not until you takes pride in it's past, present, and future. You wanted the NFL you got to take pride in it and support it! Remember you got to put out the big bucks to get a return in something. Most people don't want that. They just expect it to come. Build on what you have and the rest will come. Just remember take pride in the city and others will follow!!! 8) You want to be a Great City it mean you got to pay for it. In todays world not all things are FREE!!!
Quote from: Timkin on July 18, 2010, 01:09:03 AM
Since Ock is the resident train Specialist...... Ock, I'd like your thoughts on Adam St. Station and the 25 railroad cars sitting under an FDOT overpass. How should it move forward?
I butchered the quote. Sorry Timkin
Aside from the parks in Orlando and Cali (and Cedar Point), theme parks have been losing their parent companies millions of dollars for several years now and to build one requires hundreds of millions of dollars. To build one without a movie company or world's largest beer company backing it (and Six Flags will not build a new once since they have had financial struggles for years and even went to bankruptcy) would require a Blackstone, or KKR, or some major PE firm. Jax simply has a hard time attracting that kind of money for many many reasons even though it is easy to do business here and we give out incentives.
People went south to Miami not because Jax stunk, but because Miami was further south. It is tropical down there and practically the farthest south you can get. That will always give Miami a leg up on Jax and we cannot help that.
Jax needs to remain the business capital of Florida and like it or not, the family town of Florida. Notice how Orlando has tried to stake itself as the family town in the state (because of Disney). That city realizes that our country and the south especially is an area where families dominate and bring in more tax revenue than singles. I think we are continuing to make strides to boost our medical tourism and local hospitals and grow our finance and insurance business here. We have lobbied to keep a larger military presence in the absence of the JFK.
Overall, aside from a lack of leadership in revitalizing downtown (and some stupid remarks by stupid city council leaders), political and business leaders here in Jacksonville have done a pretty good job of keeping our economy diverse and our identity, small though it is, has remained separate from the other FL cities and unique.
Aside from Orlando, Jax metro has the overall highest growth rate in FL, at least 0.5% higher annual growth than Tampa and well over twice as fast as S FL. Orlando has its own problems of crime (seems worse there than here), traffic, transience, etc. S FL has its obvious load of problems and will never be a good place to raise a family when compared to Jacksonville; and Tampa, while similar to Jax, is uglier, has a much worse layout, much worse traffic, and a whole set of unique problems in Pinellas county, which probably has the poorest retirees I have ever seen and a crazier church than FBC controlling politics and RE in Clearwater. That church is scientology.
Quote from: Noone on July 18, 2010, 07:42:02 AM
I butchered the quote. Sorry Timkin
NP nobodys paying any attention to my stuff anywho :D
Tim..............your just a non-entity taxpaying person...............just like the rest of us big guy! I figure if the herd gets larger, sooner or later, them thats be will take notice! They won't have much of a choice in it!
Thx CS. :)
Quote from: simms3 on July 18, 2010, 11:17:06 AM
To build one without a movie company or world's largest beer company backing it (and Six Flags will not build a new once since they have had financial struggles for years and even went to bankruptcy) would require a Blackstone, or KKR, or some major PE firm.
FYI, Blackstone recently bought the Anheuser Busch theme parks (Busch Gardens and Seaworld brands). They also co-own Universal Orlando with NBC and via Merlin Entertainment, Madame Tussauds wax museums and Legoland. They are now only second to Disney in the theme park business.
Excerpt from pre-A-B acquisition announcement article from last year:QuoteShamu, meet your new boss: Stephen Schwarzman.
Blackstone Group LP, the New York private-equity firm headed by Mr. Schwarzman, is nearing a roughly $2.5 billion to $3 billion acquisition of Anheuser-Busch InBev NV's theme parks, according to people familiar with the situation.
The sale of the Busch Entertainment unit, which owns the SeaWorld and Busch Gardens parks, has been expected as part of InBev's plans to pay for its 2008 acquisition of Anheuser-Busch.
The deal could be announced as soon as the coming week, but still might fall apart, the people familiar with the matter said.
An Anheuser-Busch InBev spokeswoman declined to comment.
If completed, the purchase would add to Blackstone's theme-park holdings. The buyout shop already controls Merlin Entertainment Group, the owner of Madame Tussauds wax museums and Legoland. It also holds a 50% stake in Universal Orlando theme parks.
Blackstone would be acquiring 10 amusement parks located throughout the U.S., from SeaWorld in Orlando, Fla., to Sesame Place in Langhorne, Pa. Among SeaWorld's more famous attractions is the Shamu show, named after the park's iconic Orca whale.
In 2007, the Busch Entertainment division posted $162.9 million in income on $1.3 billion in sales. Under InBev, the company no longer breaks out financial results from the unit.
The theme parks employed about 10,300 temporary workers on average each month in 2008, according to a recent Anheuser-Busch InBev regulatory filing.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125451372825260227.html
Not shocked at all to learn this. I WAS shocked when InBev acquired AB.
Quote from: WillNevaLeaveJAX on July 18, 2010, 01:29:50 AM
I heard that Disney offered Jacksonville first but the mayor at the time declined... is there any truth to that?
This rumor has circulated for years. Below is an investigaton by the Florida T-U. Supposedly, Ed Ball nixed the idea by refusing to meet with Walt Disney. I don't think anyone has been able to prove or disprove it. At a minimum, it's a local favorite "urban myth". :DQuote
Published Tuesday, April 24, 2007
Was Duval a crossroads for Disney?
By KAREN BRUNE MATHIS
The Times-Union,
Walt Disney's future might have turned south in downtown Jacksonville.
Whether folklore, true story or a bit of both, the tale was told last week to more than 700 shopping center executives from across the country who met in Ponte Vedra.
Jerry Ray, senior vice president of communications and raconteur for The St. Joe Co., wove the narrative and added more on Monday. Here goes.
It was 1959. Legendary financier Ed Ball ran the St. Joe Paper Co., which owned more than a million acres, the majority of it in Northwest Florida. The land had been acquired by Ball's late brother-in-law, industrialist Alfred I. duPont.
After Disneyland opened in 1955 in California, the visionary Walt Disney turned his sights for a new park elsewhere, including Northwest Florida.
Disney and his lawyers, lobbyists and friends tried unsuccessfully to reach Ball, who turned them down. In a last ditch effort, Disney made an appointment in March 1959 to meet Ball, a tough businessman, at Ball's Jacksonville office.
Disney arrived at 9 a.m. to quiet offices, whose silence was broken only by a ticking clock.
Ball's secretary, Irene Walsh, told Disney that Ball would like for him to wait. Each hour, Walsh would take stock orders in to Ball's office, returning with the same message. "He's busy."
At noon, she told Disney that "Mr. Ball would like for me to go out and get you lunch."
The afternoon passed and she continued taking stock orders in to Ball. After the last report, she returned to Disney with a note, folded eight times.
"Mr. Disney, I'm not going to see you. I don't do business with carnival people."
As we know, Disney bought almost 27,500 acres in Central Florida and announced Walt Disney World in 1965. The resort grew to 30,500 acres, according to Disney World Trivia.
"That's what you call a crossroads of history," Ray told the International Council of Shopping Centers group. "Mr. Disney's first choice was Panama City Beach."
What a story!
It might be just that. I ran the short version past Raymond K. Mason Sr., a friend and business associate of Ball. Mason published a Ball biography in 1976.
"I have heard the story attributed to Mr. Ball before, but he was very polite and would have been delighted to meet Mr. Disney, so I do not believe that ever happened. I think somebody just being smart probably made it up," Mason e-mailed me.
Ray says the story might be just that, but a lot of people are telling it. Versions ran in The New York Times in 1998, The Miami Herald in 2001 and both the Orlando Sentinel and Fortune magazine in 2005. The Orange County Regional History Center found a reference to it as "company lore" in a 2004 book, Green Empire, The St. Joe Company and the Remaking of Florida's Panhandle.
Peter Rummell, St. Joe's chairman since 1997, was not available for comment Monday about the story or the coincidence that he came to the job after 11 years with Disney in design and development.
St. Joe still farms but also is developing its land - about 800,000 acres today - into communities and resorts. Ray says the company is in a much better position to do that now than it was back then.
Disney died in 1966 and Ball in 1981. Ray says he's talked with "scores" of people about the story, "but all of the people who were actually involved are, of course, long gone."
But the story? It won't be forgotten.
http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/042407/bum_165125931.shtml
Can you imagine where we would be today IF Walt Disney actually DID propose this idea and the Mayor accepted?
I am not sure if Panama City Beach would have made the Disney short list, even with a Walt Disney and Ed Ball hit it off.
The Orlando area is easily accessible via Interstate 4 from Interstate 75, Interstate 95 and also from Florida's Turnpike. This location is a lot more accessible than Panama City Beach.
Speaking of legends surrouning Ed Ball, a friend of mine once told me that the Baptists vetoed the idea of a theme park in North Florida. The speculation continues to swirl, doesn't it?
Thought I had heard that as well, Jaxson ... Actually I thought it was to be a Busch Gardens type theme park. but alas..
I agree with the comment that Jax should develop an identity of its own. Playing the role of "Old Florida" would be great as that is our uniqueness. I am just not sure if we have preserved enough of our historic and natural fabric to pull it off 100%. While theme parks and sports teams are nice and may improve a community's psyche, they are not panaceas and have never been demonstrated to improve the quality of life in a substantive way for the average citizen. Spending money on education would be the far better choice.
As to the particular "problem" of things to do, I believe it is our ongoing failure to fully market our existing attractions and history. While our Convention and Visitors Bureau may work hard to do it, for some reason the message isn't getting out enough. I spoke with self-guided tourists this week from New Zealand and they complained it was difficult finding things in Jax to do. Most people visiting here seem to like the city when informed locals take them around but seem more helpless doing it on their own.
I don't know if its done, but EVERY hotel (and maybe university dorm) room in Jax should have an updated brochure/book with a comprehensive list of every little thing (not just the things CVB members think of or pay for) a tourist might find interesting in this town, from restaurants to even the tiniest city, state, and national parks to historic sites to recreational opportunities at the beach, at the golf course, on walking or bikeways or via ecotours to events, whether the fireworks, Jazz Festival, or shows at the local theaters. MJ has highlighted the inadequacy of signage from downtown to our interstates. Having a part-time staffed/full-time self-served downtown kiosk in Hemming Plaza and at the Landing and another near the Jax Beach pier might help.
The web is great, but that's for people making the effort to do their homework. Most people need to have the info foisted upon them to open their eyes. I was recently at a couple of different NYC hotels, and they both had photos and NYC themes on every floor, in every room, and in all the common areas. Now, everyone is familiar with most sites in NYC, yet they still pound it home at every turn. It's inescapable.
And, we are far more than the Landing, the Beach, TPC, and St. Augustine. More needs to be done to educate both locals and visitors of that. Most of our locals are clueless about what is under their very noses based on my conversations with those who have lived here decades but never bothered to explore their own home town and/or learn its history. By example, I am amazed to go to area parks on par with the best national parks anywhere, and find them underutilized during "peak" outdoor seasons or mostly populated by out of town visitors who did their home work and love them, but not by locals who don't. It may be the same reason why we get comments like the one starting this thread and/or why Jax self-esteem isn't higher.
So, after we put brochures in every hotel and dorm room, maybe we should regularly send them out with every JEA bill. And, having regular "Did you know?" Jax history stories, as well-highlighted here on MJ and occasionally in the T-U, should be sent along too.
Just a few "common sense" ideas. I am sure we could come up with a lot more if input were solicited.
I WHOLEHEARTEDLY concur, stjr! I particularly like the very first paragraph of your post, but agree with all of it in general.
Quote from: Jaxson on July 18, 2010, 10:39:09 PM
The Orlando area is easily accessible via Interstate 4 from Interstate 75, Interstate 95 and also from Florida's Turnpike. This location is a lot more accessible than Panama City Beach.
In 1959, the interstates in Florida didn't exist. They could have been on the drawing boards, but their impact may have been at least more speculative in those days since they were not intended to impact travel quite the way they do today. By the way, Lake City is the crossroads of I-75 and I-10 and in proximity to both I-95 and I-4, and they sure didn't boom like Orlando. ;)QuoteSpeaking of legends surrouning Ed Ball, a friend of mine once told me that the Baptists vetoed the idea of a theme park in North Florida.
I never heard this, but some do give them credit for making sure we lost the movie industry and any chance to be "Hollywood" back in the early 1900's.
OK, here is another old rumor: Anheuser Busch thought they might build a Busch Gardens in Jax when they built their brewery here in the 1960's and that is why they own so much land there. It never happened though. Maybe this is the deal the Baptists nixed? ;D
I have heard this particular one many times over the years. I do not know who is to blame for it not happening , or if in fact it ever did. Still , a Theme Park in these parts could have been good.
Before Disney, Orlando (and most of surrounding Central Florida ) was a Orange Grove. In a way, its too bad that is no longer the case .
Quote from: stjr on July 18, 2010, 10:48:10 PM
Spending money on education would be the far better choice.
Yes. Instead of being known for Mickey Mouse or Shamu, what if Jacksonville's claim to fame was having the best public school system in the US?
Quote from: stjr on July 18, 2010, 10:59:07 PM
Quote from: Jaxson on July 18, 2010, 10:39:09 PM
The Orlando area is easily accessible via Interstate 4 from Interstate 75, Interstate 95 and also from Florida's Turnpike. This location is a lot more accessible than Panama City Beach.
In 1959, the interstates in Florida didn't exist. They could have been on the drawing boards, but their impact may have been at least more speculative in those days since they were not intended to impact travel quite the way they do today. By the way, Lake City is the crossroads of I-75 and I-10 and in proximity to both I-95 and I-4, and they sure didn't boom like Orlando. ;)
QuoteSpeaking of legends surrouning Ed Ball, a friend of mine once told me that the Baptists vetoed the idea of a theme park in North Florida.
I never heard this, but some do give them credit for making sure we lost the movie industry and any chance to be "Hollywood" back in the early 1900's.
OK, here is another old rumor: Anheuser Busch thought they might build a Busch Gardens in Jax when they built their brewery here in the 1960's and that is why they own so much land there. It never happened though. Maybe this is the deal the Baptists nixed? ;D
I read that, in the early 1960s, Walt Disney did a flyover around Central Florida and that is when he fell in love with the location for his new theme park...
Seeing that Haydon Burns was governor at the time, it would have been a golden opportunity to steer Disney our way, but alas...
Quote from: stjr on July 18, 2010, 10:59:07 PM
Quote from: Jaxson on July 18, 2010, 10:39:09 PM
The Orlando area is easily accessible via Interstate 4 from Interstate 75, Interstate 95 and also from Florida's Turnpike. This location is a lot more accessible than Panama City Beach.
In 1959, the interstates in Florida didn't exist. They could have been on the drawing boards, but their impact may have been at least more speculative in those days since they were not intended to impact travel quite the way they do today. By the way, Lake City is the crossroads of I-75 and I-10 and in proximity to both I-95 and I-4, and they sure didn't boom like Orlando. ;)
QuoteSpeaking of legends surrouning Ed Ball, a friend of mine once told me that the Baptists vetoed the idea of a theme park in North Florida.
I never heard this, but some do give them credit for making sure we lost the movie industry and any chance to be "Hollywood" back in the early 1900's.
OK, here is another old rumor: Anheuser Busch thought they might build a Busch Gardens in Jax when they built their brewery here in the 1960's and that is why they own so much land there. It never happened though. Maybe this is the deal the Baptists nixed? ;D
Actually, my parents told me there was a huge fight over the land they wanted to purchase. Anheuser Busch basically gave up on it and decided to go elsewhere (tampa)
Quote from: duvaldude08 on July 23, 2010, 04:31:30 PM
Actually, my parents told me there was a huge fight over the land they wanted to purchase. Anheuser Busch basically gave up on it and decided to go elsewhere (tampa)
But the Busch Gardens in Tampa already existed when the brewery in Jacksonville opened, so that doesn't make sense.
Well hey dont shoot the messager :o
A couple thoughts/responses:
1. Be different than Orlando, Tampa and South Florida
You can't beat them in tourist draw, $$$, attractions, media attention, etc. They're far better equipped and positioned geographically to be superior in those categories. Just as an example - and this is not to denigrate Jax for those thin-skinned - there's only one Cheesecake Factory in Jacksonville compared to 8 or 9 within South Florida! So, let Jax be itself - a family-centric river town, where folks can raise a bunch of kids with good schools, outstanding community groups/activities and churches, family-centered festivals, etc. A local economy that doesn't dazzle, but is stable long term.
2. Highlight the present and future, NOT MORE HISTORY.
Much of Jacksonville's history is disaster, corruption, botched efforts, failure, etc. Forget it! Move on! Start something fresh. How many tourists really care about the history of buildings of a downtown that no one goes to? Maybe a few enthusiasts, but not the masses.
3. Schools and Jobs
Entertainment attracts tourists, but solid schools and jobs attracts NEW RESIDENTS. Make the schools in Jax better. Not just by throwing money at them, but emphasizing character, virtue, respect, etc. Family first, family first, family first.
Quote from: Wacca Pilatka on July 23, 2010, 05:43:32 PM
Quote from: WillNevaLeaveJAX on July 18, 2010, 01:29:50 AM
I heard that Disney offered Jacksonville first but the mayor at the time declined... is there any truth to that?
Definitely not accurate. Jacksonville was never in Disney's consideration. The other serious candidates for Disney's location were St. Louis, DC, and Niagara Falls. This is according to the book "Married to the Mouse," which gives no indication that Disney gave any thought to a theme park in the eastern half of the U.S. until the early 60s, which goes against the Ed Ball story. Bear in mind Jacksonville was a much more established area at the time than Orlando and it would not have been nearly so easy for Disney to covertly purchase large tracts of land, I wouldn't imagine.
Quote from: stjr on July 18, 2010, 10:59:07 PM
OK, here is another old rumor: Anheuser Busch thought they might build a Busch Gardens in Jax when they built their brewery here in the 1960's and that is why they own so much land there. It never happened though. Maybe this is the deal the Baptists nixed? ;D[/b]
There is some basis in fact to this, but it has nothing to do with the 60s and I don't know that it has anything to do with Baptists either. Shortly after the turn of the 20th century, when Jacksonville was still more tourism-oriented and the movie industry was beginning to establish its foothold, Anheuser Busch proposed developing an amusement park, large hotel, and I believe some kind of a studio or theatre complex, basically in the Brooklyn area. For reasons unknown, this ultimately fell through. The plan was not for something as ambitious as modern-day Busch Gardens--I understand the grand hotel was a much bigger part of the project than the theme park--and I do not think Jacksonville was ever in the running for what ultimately became Busch Gardens Tampa (which predates the Jacksonville brewery by several years, I believe).
I think there is some detail about this project in both Broward's "The Architecture of Henry John Klutho" and Shawn Bean's "The First Hollywood."
It is true that Walt Disney talked to business leaders in St. Louis, but they balked at Disney's insistence that a theme park be free of alcoholic beverages.
Quote from: rjp2008 on July 23, 2010, 05:42:33 PM
A couple thoughts/responses:
2. Highlight the present and future, NOT MORE HISTORY.
Much of Jacksonville's history is disaster, corruption, botched efforts, failure, etc. Forget it! Move on! Start something fresh. How many tourists really care about the history of buildings of a downtown that no one goes to? Maybe a few enthusiasts, but not the masses.
Nothing wrong with highlighting the present and future, but I (as an outsider) consider Jacksonville's historical merits highly underrated and think too many Jacksonville residents have too low of an opinion of it...there are stories to tell here of the colonization of the United States, the Civil War, a resplendently triumphant emergence from a catastrophic fire, major contributors to the Harlem Renaissance, unique musical contributions in multiple genres (including being the near-exclusive birthplace of the Southern Rock sub-genre)...Harriet Beecher Stowe, Madeline L'Engle, and Zora Neale Hurston's literary accomplishments...one of the most unusually run plantations in the antebellum South, and the remarkable legacy of Anna Jai Kingsley. And let's not forget the remaining examples of an architectural style found virtually nowhere else in the region.
How many cities have birthed distinct musical and architectural styles, played an important role in the development of the film industry, and seen European powers battle for control of its territory? There may be many regrettable elements in Jacksonville's history, but there is MUCH to be proud of and this city's self-flagellation needs to stop.
Quote from: Jaxson on July 23, 2010, 06:01:56 PM
It is true that Walt Disney talked to business leaders in St. Louis, but they balked at Disney's insistence that a theme park be free of alcoholic beverages.
Yes, it has been widely reported that this was a dispute with the Busch family directly.
Disney did indeed attempt a contact in Jacksonville, St. Joe Corporation, which owned tens of thousands of acres both near and far in Florida. While I don't think we'll ever know the full vision that was floating around in Walt's mind on the March 1959 day he came to Jacksonville to meet with ED BALL. Could have been NW Jax, or St. Johns or Nassau? Could have been the panhandle? What if Ball had stepped up and suggested Jacksonville? What if we offered Walt the red carpet tour? Disneys message was no doubt something to the tune of "I would like to meet with you to consider property purchase for a future project..." Ball stood Disney up and never came to the 9AM meeting at the St. Joe headquarters, in fact Disney stayed all day and St. Joe fed him lunch while he waited and waited and waited. Finally at the end of the day the secretary was called in and returned with a note for Mr. Disney.
TO WALT DISNEY:
WALT, I DON'T WANT TO MEET WITH YOU, JACKSONVILLE DOESN'T DEAL WITH CARNIVAL PEOPLE.
ED BALL
Our fate was sealed, Orlando, Tampa, West Palm, Fort Lauderdale and Miami would all experience unprecedented booms of flashy developments, tourism, population, amenities, resorts and infrastructure and we'd forever more drive the delivery trucks.
Maybe we could hang out a sign, Walt Disney ate here... But then the place where the secretary bought the lunch is probably torn down!
http://www.dapsmagic.com/disneynews/disneynewsarticle.php?id=5311
OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: Ocklawaha on July 24, 2010, 01:07:41 AM
Disney did indeed attempt a contact in Jacksonville, St. Joe Corporation, which owned tens of thousands of acres both near and far in Florida. While I don't think we'll ever know the full vision that was floating around in Walt's mind on the March 1959 day he came to Jacksonville to meet with ED BALL. Could have been NW Jax, or St. Johns or Nassau? Could have been the panhandle? What if Ball had stepped up and suggested Jacksonville? What if we offered Walt the red carpet tour? Disneys message was no doubt something to the tune of "I would like to meet with you to consider property purchase for a future project..." Ball stood Disney up and never came to the 9AM meeting at the St. Joe headquarters, in fact Disney stayed all day and St. Joe fed him lunch while he waited and waited and waited. Finally at the end of the day the secretary was called in and returned with a note for Mr. Disney.
TO WALT DISNEY:
WALT, I DON'T WANT TO MEET WITH YOU, JACKSONVILLE DOESN'T DEAL WITH CARNIVAL PEOPLE.
ED BALL
Our fate was sealed, Orlando, Tampa, West Palm, Fort Lauderdale and Miami would all experience unprecedented booms of flashy developments, tourism, population, amenities, resorts and infrastructure and we'd forever more drive the delivery trucks.
Maybe we could hang out a sign, Walt Disney ate here... But then the place where the secretary bought the lunch is probably torn down!
OCKLAWAHA
Maybe this was a blessing in disguise. If you think about it, Disney would have brought in billions of dollars of projects. These dollars would have then propped up and supported the Jacksonville government. Imagine giving our city politicians and extra billion or two dollars. Imagine what kind of fun city they would design with all that money! I'd imagine with all that money, there would not be a single historic building left in this city based on Jacksonville's history. Add racial segregation and I don't want to imagine what they would have come up with.
Well, this is supposing if Disney would have been a success in Jacksonville vs the Orlando Area. If Ed Ball really had a bad view of Disney just buying land, imagine his view on the creation of Reedy Creek and it's total independence of the local government.
My Mother, God rest her soul, was the receptionist for Ed Ball up until 1964. That story had been going around fro a long time, she always said that she never ever heard of Mr Disney paying a visit.
I don't like Orlando. It's personal. So Disney not coming to Jacksonville and turning it into Orlando is OK with me.
Quote from: danno on July 24, 2010, 07:31:45 AM
My Mother, God rest her soul, was the receptionist for Ed Ball up until 1964. That story had been going around fro a long time, she always said that she never ever heard of Mr Disney paying a visit.
I was here at the time and seem to recall a buzz about a Disney visit. Maybe there was a TU or Journal article or perhaps just a photo of him stepping off a plane? The way the TU archives is, nobody will ever see it again if it is there. One of their people told me when they went digital, they "lost" a couple hundred thousand images...
Anyone else have a similar memory?OCKLAWAHA
I had no problem getting the Times-Union to reprint a photo for me. It was from 1950.
Guess either way, it is for not , now. Disney has obviously done well in its current location in Orlando.
If Mr.Ball actually DID turn down even having a conversation with Mr. Disney, I think that was pretty narrow-minded of him. But if he did not do business with Carnival people, I cannot imagine him making the man wait for hours, or getting him lunch. I do not see the point. I think it would have been a flat refusal for him to be invited at all , only to waste his time. This obviously was before my time. But I personally think Disney could have done tremendous things for this area, assuming they would have located anywhere nearby. Guess it worked out as it was meant to work out. And here we remain ,struggling, losing our fabric and Urban core, and a handful of City Management and their cronies, skimming a tidy profit off the suffering of the rest of us. It isn't right.
Quote from: stephendare on July 24, 2010, 01:16:26 AM
Walt Disney's future might have turned south in downtown Jacksonville.
Stephen, just a pet peeve of mine. I think we should respect our sources and put quotes from others in the quote box with proper attribution and a link. See my presentation of the same quote you made in this very thread, Post #42. I also have a hard time telling your words from others when you do this and, given your excellent writing skills, you deserve credit, too, for your originality, versus the possible assumption you are quoting another. Thanks.
Quote from: stephendare on July 24, 2010, 06:20:12 PM
Thanks man. The shifting nature of the various little sites and blogs often means that what you link to today will be gone tomorrow.
I agree, and that is why I usually both "reprint" the story on MJ in quotes (so, if the link fails, you still have the quote) and also give the link and/or source. I believe in not just acknowledging source sites, but also supporting and "thanking" them with the hopeful reward of a few extra web hits and/or referrals from here when I add their link. Our support may also insure they will be there to generate future source material for us. ;)
I think you'd be beating yourself up to call yourself lazy, Stephen ;)
+1
OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: stjr on July 18, 2010, 10:14:55 PM
Quote from: WillNevaLeaveJAX on July 18, 2010, 01:29:50 AM
I heard that Disney offered Jacksonville first but the mayor at the time declined... is there any truth to that?
This rumor has circulated for years. Below is an investigaton by the Florida T-U. Supposedly, Ed Ball nixed the idea by refusing to meet with Walt Disney. I don't think anyone has been able to prove or disprove it. At a minimum, it's a local favorite "urban myth". :D
Quote
Published Tuesday, April 24, 2007
Was Duval a crossroads for Disney?
By KAREN BRUNE MATHIS
The Times-Union,
Walt Disney's future might have turned south in downtown Jacksonville.
Whether folklore, true story or a bit of both, the tale was told last week to more than 700 shopping center executives from across the country who met in Ponte Vedra.
Jerry Ray, senior vice president of communications and raconteur for The St. Joe Co., wove the narrative and added more on Monday. Here goes.
It was 1959. Legendary financier Ed Ball ran the St. Joe Paper Co., which owned more than a million acres, the majority of it in Northwest Florida. The land had been acquired by Ball's late brother-in-law, industrialist Alfred I. duPont.
After Disneyland opened in 1955 in California, the visionary Walt Disney turned his sights for a new park elsewhere, including Northwest Florida.
Disney and his lawyers, lobbyists and friends tried unsuccessfully to reach Ball, who turned them down. In a last ditch effort, Disney made an appointment in March 1959 to meet Ball, a tough businessman, at Ball's Jacksonville office.
Disney arrived at 9 a.m. to quiet offices, whose silence was broken only by a ticking clock.
Ball's secretary, Irene Walsh, told Disney that Ball would like for him to wait. Each hour, Walsh would take stock orders in to Ball's office, returning with the same message. "He's busy."
At noon, she told Disney that "Mr. Ball would like for me to go out and get you lunch."
The afternoon passed and she continued taking stock orders in to Ball. After the last report, she returned to Disney with a note, folded eight times.
"Mr. Disney, I'm not going to see you. I don't do business with carnival people."
As we know, Disney bought almost 27,500 acres in Central Florida and announced Walt Disney World in 1965. The resort grew to 30,500 acres, according to Disney World Trivia.
"That's what you call a crossroads of history," Ray told the International Council of Shopping Centers group. "Mr. Disney's first choice was Panama City Beach."
What a story!
It might be just that. I ran the short version past Raymond K. Mason Sr., a friend and business associate of Ball. Mason published a Ball biography in 1976.
"I have heard the story attributed to Mr. Ball before, but he was very polite and would have been delighted to meet Mr. Disney, so I do not believe that ever happened. I think somebody just being smart probably made it up," Mason e-mailed me.
Ray says the story might be just that, but a lot of people are telling it. Versions ran in The New York Times in 1998, The Miami Herald in 2001 and both the Orlando Sentinel and Fortune magazine in 2005. The Orange County Regional History Center found a reference to it as "company lore" in a 2004 book, Green Empire, The St. Joe Company and the Remaking of Florida's Panhandle.
Peter Rummell, St. Joe's chairman since 1997, was not available for comment Monday about the story or the coincidence that he came to the job after 11 years with Disney in design and development.
St. Joe still farms but also is developing its land - about 800,000 acres today - into communities and resorts. Ray says the company is in a much better position to do that now than it was back then.
Disney died in 1966 and Ball in 1981. Ray says he's talked with "scores" of people about the story, "but all of the people who were actually involved are, of course, long gone."
But the story? It won't be forgotten.
http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/042407/bum_165125931.shtml
From the NY Times, an interesting obituary on the man who helped Disney determine where to locate its theme parks. It implies it was a pretty scientific/objective process that led to Orlando so it makes one wonder if Jax really was in the running.QuoteAugust 21, 2010
Harrison Price, a Planner of Disney Parks, Dies at 89
By MARGALIT FOX
Harrison Price, an internationally known research economist who told the developers of the world’s most famous theme parks where to situate them â€" in the process putting Disneyland in Anaheim, Calif., and Walt Disney World in Orlando, Fla. â€" died on Aug. 15 in Pomona, Calif. He was 89.
Mr. Price, a Pomona resident, died of chronic anemia, his son David said.
Trained in economics and engineering, Mr. Price was a founder and very likely the best-known practitioner of the enterprise sometimes called leisure-time economic analysis.
The field, which straddles entertainment, economics, sociology, real estate, time-and-motion studies, architecture and planning, was born at midcentury, when developers of outdoor amusements began seeking the most profitable means of pulling people away from the television and out of the house.
For five decades, Mr. Price was a sought-after independent consultant to the makers of theme parks, amusement parks, zoos, museums and other large-scale spectacles. It is widely agreed that his work helped shape significantly the landscape of postwar American amusement.
In 1999, the entertainment trade publication Variety called Mr. Price “the dean of recreation economics.â€
Besides the Walt Disney Company his clients included SeaWorld, Knott’s Berry Farm, the Six Flags amusement park chain and many World’s Fairs.
Mr. Price was a professional measurer. In thousands of studies, he calibrated factors like geography, demographics, weather and traffic patterns to help clients answer two vital questions: If we build it, will they come? and If they come, how many of them will there be?
To analyze his data, Mr. Price devised a set of algorithms he called “roller-coaster math.†Among the things he would quantify, for instance, was the length of time patrons might stand in line to board an amusement park ride.
“If people are waiting around too long, you’re not going to be profitable,†he told The Desert Sun of Palm Springs, Calif., in 2004. “But if they’re going through the park too fast, that’s also not good.â€
Mr. Price was best known for his work for Disney, for which he produced more than 150 feasibility, marketing and site-selection studies. His association with the company began in 1953, after Walt Disney and his brother Roy O. Disney consulted him about the best place to erect a family-oriented theme park, to be known as Disneyland.
At the time, Mr. Price was on the staff of the Stanford Research Institute, a business consultancy. Weighing several Southern California locations, he determined that Anaheim, then a largely rural place of citrus groves, would be the most temperate, accessible and, above all, profitable.
The Disney company acquired 160 acres there, and Disneyland opened in 1955.
“Walt was a dreamer, but he had a very workmanlike curiosity about how things functioned, and whether what he was talking about would actually work,†Mr. Price said in the Desert Sun interview.
At Walt Disney’s urging, Mr. Price founded his own consultancy, Economics Research Associates, in 1958. He sold the business in 1969; in 1978 he founded the Harrison Price Company, which he closed on his retirement in 2005.
Harrison Alan Price, familiarly known as Buzz, was born on May 17, 1921, in Oregon City, Ore., and reared in Southern California. As a child, he later said, he was a “numbers geek,†the kind of boy who kept a careful tally of the number of times he played each phonograph record in his collection.
Mr. Price received a bachelor’s degree in mechanical engineering from the California Institute of Technology in 1942. After Army service in World War II, he earned an M.B.A. from Stanford in 1951.
Besides his son David, Mr. Price is survived by his wife, Anne Shaw Price, whom he married in 1944; another son, Bret; two daughters, Dana Price and Holly Shaw Ristuccia; a sister, Patricia Scott Mannarino; nine grandchildren; and two great-grandchildren.
He was the author of a business memoir, “Walt’s Revolution! By the Numbers†(Ripley Entertainment, 2004).
Other projects on which Mr. Price consulted include the 1964 World’s Fair in New York and the 1984 Louisiana World Exposition in New Orleans. For Disney, he helped choose the location of Tokyo Disneyland, which opened in 1983 in Chiba, Japan.
He also oversaw the creation of the California Institute of the Arts, a project of Walt Disney’s that Mr. Price helped shepherd into being after Mr. Disney’s death in 1966.
In his long career, Mr. Price made one strategic decision that, it is safe to assume, has earned him the deep retrospective gratitude of Gotham.
In the 1960s, wishing to build a theme park on the East Coast, Disney commissioned Mr. Price to find a suitable location. Among the sites he considered for the new park, to be called Walt Disney World, were Orlando, Fla., and New York City.
Mr. Price ran his numbers and chose Orlando.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/22/business/22price.html?hpw