To respond to this article which was obviously written by naive,socialist person.
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2010-feb-why-jacksonville-should-immediately-invest-in-rail
I said it looong time ago,urban living and mass transit are anti-capitalist.
Article points that is cheaper and more cost effective to have mass transit/urban life then car culture/suburban lifestyle which is partially true.
Actually suburban lifestyle creates more jobs and money then urban.
Mass transit creates jobs for some but car culture creates whole lot more...a lot more.
You need highways,you need to buy a car,fix a car,maintan a car,use resources to power that car.
All that creates jobs,which creates more money and demand-good for capitalism.
20 people in a rail can spend 100 dollars a day,but 20 people in a car can spend thousands of dollars easily.
As an individual it is cheaper for use rail,save YOU money but for a capitalist (or a entire country) car culture is God given,that's where money is.
Mass transit might be good for you,but for rich car culture is-thats where money is.
You don't decide what happens but rich and powerful people do.you might think you do,but you don't.
That's why Jacksonville or even entire US will never have proper mass transit.It's socialist and anti-American.
Car and everything that surrounds cars is what capitalist want.
Money comes first,everything else later.
So let's not kid ourselves that this will change.People in power will never allow that to happen (as we can see in example of Jacksonville),in most severe cases you might get some cheesy solution to mass transit that wont be efficient,safe or comfortable -simply most people would stray away from it and stick to a cars.
Unless rich and powerful allow you to have that(which will never happen) or people simple decide to stray from suburban lifestyle (which will never happen when rich are straying every good project) nothing ever will happen.
Writing article without actually pointing to real problem will never solve or change anything.
umm....okay.
Thats why you dont have politicians do anything positive regarding urban lifestyle or mass transit.
They work for special interest groups whos interest is not in urban/mass transit lifestyle.
It's a lost battle before you even start it.
Mayor Peyton is great example,for his entire term nothing was done.Next mayor comes is,nothing will be done either.Occasionally they might throw few bones to people in form of some cheesy project,park and hot dog cart,maybe even paint few lines on street and mark it Bus line.
Capitalism likes profit and there is barely any profit in mass transport.Politicians work for capitalist not for you.
So what turned Portland, Charlotte and Austin around?
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Please print your sources for this information. What study says that 20 car people will always spend more then 20 transit people? Why are roads not socialized? All road, user fees, and gas taxes combined, pay only 51% of the costs per year for highways, the other 49% is taken from our taxes. So why is this not socialist? Where does it say that owning a house in Riverside makes me a socialist, but owning one in World Golf Village doesn't? Frankly if I didn't live in this suburban version of hell, I'd be spending a lot more money on things I want, rather then gas for the stupid car. I think you have it backward, but tell us your sources.
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царь OCKLAWAHA
Those are mass transit cities compared to...Jacksonville.
They are still suburban cities.Portland got 4% of daily raiders on entire metro population.
Most of them own cars too.
That is still car culture.
Chicago,NYC,SF have been urban historically,but for most other americans cities going from suburban to urban..good luck with that.
I'll be happy the day Jax gets to that 4%. I don't have any illusions of America's cities becoming London, Paris or anything European. I don't even think I would want them too. However, I would like to have a choice of living in a viable urban environment in Jacksonville.
Take a person that rides mass transit daily and then compare it to person driving a car.
Car driver spends more money which creates more jobs,moves economy and especially makes some good ol boy very rich.
They dont refer to Americans on TV as CONSUMER for nothing.
More you consume better is for capitalist.As far as they are concerned they want you to consume more and more,even if you are getting in debt.
Guy on a bus or rail only pays for a ticket (and in some cases not even that),sure you still need a road or rail to be built including a bus but thats nothing compared to car culture.
20 people in suburbs are bigger consumers then 20 people in urban center.
Consuming=money.
Money is good.
Greed is good.
I'm very happy with my BMW, have no need for public transportation.
I guess you never rode Mercedes Benz bus.
(http://www.emercedesbenz.com/Images/Nov05/30MercedesNewUrbanBus.jpg)
Quote from: mtraininjax on February 07, 2010, 10:56:53 PM
I'm very happy with my BMW, have no need for public transportation.
so sorry we're not good enough for you ;)
truth is, I like my Audi too...doesn't mean I wouldn't like to have options...plus other people who don't have BMWs might appreciate having good public transportation.
Mtraininjax, you do not have to take public transportation for it to have a very positive impact on you. Your city could have billions invested on property near transit lines, reduced traffic, better planned development, an actual good urban aspect to go along and enhance the good suburban and good rural lifestyles available in North Florida. On option on the day your BMW needs the brakes done. Less traffic on the roads also means you do not need to add lanes as often or maintain as much. The money you as a tax payer save on roads alone justifies the investment. Your buddy needs a ride and it isn't convenient for you at the moment here is an option. The drunk driver that was going to hit your friend has an option. When OPEC tries a grand power play to really jerk us around we have an option. Giving up your BMW is not the goal.
JeffreyS - Transportation in Jax is not an issue. No matter what the blowhards here want to get you to think. We don't have traffic congestion today. WE can plan all we want for the future, but there are no dollars and no need today.
What you should spend money on is education not roads, but somehow, that gets missed when people want to spend money on a new choo choo station, when only 2/3 of the students in Duval County graduate from HS.
But really, go ahead and hype the transit system. I'd rather hype the education system.
Its not about congestion even though we do have our choke points (I drive through one every day to and from work). Its about place making, community shaping and sustainable economic development. Good mass transit spurs pedestrian scale development and urbanity just like a billion dollar highway spurs sprawl.
QuoteIts about place making, community shaping and sustainable economic development.
Sounds like this should be a bumper sticker for your campaign.
It could be a bumper sticker for someone's, you never know.
MTJ I have four Twenty somethings in the family right now. Three recent college grads one blue collar guess which one stayed in Jax and which three opted for urban city centers. This is a common tale in Jax that we lose our most educated at least for their young adult life. And I am sure I do not need to tell you that how educated your population is has a bigger impact on your education system than anything even how well you invest in education. We need lifestyle choices here. And it is just good economic sense to in vest in fixed rail.
There is a direct connection between the two. Improving your community's educational status involves more than just throwing money at the school system. Community building and improving a region's quality-of-life offerings to better attract and retain the educated are just as important.
Ah, the negative poster/troll strikes again. Not Faye, Bostech.
Quote from: FayeforCure on February 07, 2010, 11:11:06 PM
Ah, so glad you asked: it was their Democratic leadership.
Look around.........everywhere where Democrats lead there is a good mass transit system,,,,,,,,Boston, New York, Los Angeles, Austin, Portland etc.
It's really very simple: elect Democrats!!!
Oh, so I guess Charlotte's former mayor switched parties today? They got it done from the day he arrived in 1995 until he left late last year as the cities longest serving mayor, ever.
OKC is now getting it down with a Republican as well.
Electing only democrats isn't the answer, but if you firmly believe that, then so be it, look like an idiot.
Quote from: Bostech on February 07, 2010, 11:36:25 PM
GOP campaign slogan should be "You don't need mass transit,We ride you".
If you agree are not that is funny.
Quote from: FayeforCure on February 07, 2010, 11:49:39 PM
Well, the majority of Charlotte's city officials are Democrats, same in Miami, that means transit friendly folks.
Oh sure you may find the odd Republican here or there who might favor mass transit ( Charlie Crist and Paula Dockery support High Speed Rail for Florida too), but the general rule is if you want local mass transit: Elect Democrats.
General rule my foot. It is the highest elected official that usually does the stomping for projects like this, because the public wants it. Case in point is OKC, where the voters approved a temp. sales tax increase to help pay for many improvement projects that fell under the umbrella of the overall MAPS project. OKC is on MAPS 3 now, which includes a streetcar line as part of the larger list of projects.
Political affiliation doesn't always mean that they'll stick to the overall message or stigma of the party, i.e. Charlotte and OKC.
Jax could have a republican mayor that is forward thinking, but also fiscally responsible and other parts of the Republican message. A big part of it, as you've said, is that our city council has their heads in the sand and just wiggle their arms around. I'll vote for any candidate that speaks to me and my views of making the 12th largest city in this country to truly reflect that.
Quote from: FayeforCure on February 07, 2010, 11:11:06 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on February 07, 2010, 10:15:56 PM
So what turned Portland, Charlotte and Austin around?
Ah, so glad you asked: it was their Democratic leadership.
Look around.........everywhere where Democrats lead there is a good mass transit system,,,,,,,,Boston, New York, Los Angeles, Austin, Portland etc.
It's really very simple: elect Democrats!!!
I'll vote for anyone with good ideas and the determination to follow through on them. Republican, Democrat, Libertarian, Green, Reform, Bull moose, whatever. I don't need someone to tell me how to think. Thanks.
SORRY FOLKS, CERTAIN POSTERS HAVE BEEN WARNED TO STOP HIJACKING THREADS FOR THEIR OWN POLITICAL AGENDA, THESE POSTS HAVE BEEN REMOVED, ALONG WITH POSTS THAT ARE NOT CONTRIBUTING TO THE SUBJECT OF THIS THREAD.
OCKLAWAHA
Quoteour city council has their heads in the sand and just wiggle their arms around.
I wouldn't say that is a case.They are just not interested in urban living or mass transit.Their money and interest is in suburban development,oil money and taxes.
They are not stupid or lousy but very smart people who know what they are doing.
You don't become mayor or any elected official because you are an idiot.They know what they are doing.
Unless you elect real people who want urban lifestyle and are progressive and not corrupted nothing will change.
Years are going by and nothings is happening.Its been long time since we were talking about mass transit and urban living and not much has changed.
Quote from: thelakelander on February 07, 2010, 10:30:17 PM
I'll be happy the day Jax gets to that 4%. I don't have any illusions of America's cities becoming London, Paris or anything European. I don't even think I would want them too. However, I would like to have a choice of living in a viable urban environment in Jacksonville.
A lot of intelligent people would like that OPTION, I dont see anything wrong with how europe does things. like the t o l said the current system is built on greed. If you want everyone to own a car, just force them to. Thank god for the internet and online shopping. All I need now is an online grocery store and i am set!
Quote from: reednavy on February 07, 2010, 11:36:17 PM
Ah, the negative poster/troll strikes again. Not Faye, Bostech.
yea I was trying to avoid it, Lake took the bait. All good though. can we have the original topic and the troll version put together.
Whatever you say Bostech.
It is very apparent that other cities across the nation get it, and are getting it done. Austin, Charlotte, Nashville, Oklahoma City to name a few got the ball rolling on significant urban infill and development years ago, when the boom was in full swing, which is now translating into light rail, streetcars, or other urban transit taking shape soon or already has. What'd we accomplish that is noticeable, a few high rises and scattered infill and redevelopment. It is pitiful because the council and mayor seem they haven't given a damn, to my knowledge, since I got here in June 2006. Yeah there has been talks, reports, and large plans talked about or developed, but nothing has really been accomplished.
Austin continues to grow incredibly, because the boom there got started later, but hasn't stopped yet and appears it won't anytime soon. They've also got a light rail system done and apparently willing to expand it, and it's only 3 years old, if that.
OKC has experienced a renaissance for nearly 20 years, and they've yet to see it stop. Their new MAPS 3 project file includes a streetcar line connecting downtown and nearby areas such as the Capitol and Midtown. It also includes a new convention center and a new 70-acre park connecting the core to the shores of the North Canadian River (Oklahoma River in OKC city limits).
Nashville woke up in the late 90s and while it has slowed some, it is getting ready to start it;s most significant project ever undertaken in the city's history, the new Music City Center convention center, which will kick start more urban development. They've recently begun a new push to expand the Music City Star rail line to the 100,000 population city of Murfreesboro, and other suburbs like Franklin and Gallatin.
Now as for Charlotte, the numbers, pictures, and people speak for themselves.
Now, you can't tell me this city is run by idiots now. We need a change in the political ways this city is run by, and now. If we don't, we will never prove ourselves as a major US city. Jax is the 12th largest city in the nation, but we might as well be in the ranks of Grand Rapids and Fort Wayne. No offense to either of those municipalities.
Now this might be taken the wrong way, but here is my personal opinion. The City of Jacksonville has not done one significant thing that makes me proud to say I call it my home, nothing. We talk, dream, and type up fancy presentations, but nothing has been down with them or about them. John Peyton can't leave office soon enough as he waited too late to salvage anything IMO.
Thats pretty strong......I think the Jags and the Navy are two great things Jax did.
Quote from: Coolyfett on February 08, 2010, 02:54:23 AM
Thats pretty strong......I think the Jags and the Navy are two great things Jax did.
I'm talking about now, this current administration, the one that was in during the boom and at this moment. What have they done, that is noticeable, besides the lighting of most of the bridges?
To put it simply reednavy............nothing! Other than waste Millions of our tax dollars......that will be Johnny's legacy with me!!
Who's gonna finish courthouse if Peyton is gone?