Soon after World War II, a sea of oaks spread across Jacksonville's neighborhoods.
"Victory trees" handed out by a utility shaded sidewalks and yards from Avondale to Springfield and San Marco.
Now, those trees are dying of old age.
"They turned out to be water oaks or laurel oaks," said Anna Dooley, executive director for Greenscape of Jacksonville, a beautification group. "They have about a 60-year lifespan, which is where we are."
A generation of plantings from the beginnings of post-war suburbs in Arlington, the Northside and Southside are expected to follow suit.
"In the next 10 years, I would expect realistically to lose 25 to 35 percent of our canopy just to age," said Roy Sanderford, sales manager for Warming Tree Services Inc. in Jacksonville. "They're all coming to that age."
That realization is triggering preparation efforts to replace trees that are part of neighborhood identity as much as front porches and six-sided paving stones.
There's more than aesthetics at stake, though.
The conservation group American Forests estimated in 2005 that Jacksonville's trees did as much to hold and clean polluted rainwater headed to the St. Johns River as building a drainage and stormwater management system that would cost almost $1.9 billion.
They also filter air pollution, including carbon monoxide and ozone, the report said.
Tree advocate urges caution
Jacksonville could use help on both fronts.
The city joined other local governments in signing a St. Johns cleanup plan in 2008 calling for more than $600 million worth of clean-water projects. And last month, the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency proposed new national ozone standards that Duval County is expected to fail, which means finding new ways to clean the air.
There's no need for drastic measures like felling healthy trees, said Margaret Tocknell, who chairs a tree committee for Riverside Avondale Preservation, the main civic voice for the historic district.
But knowing when a big tree is dying allows a chance for it to be taken down safely, she said, and people in older neighborhoods should watch for signs their trees are failing.
Trees losing their leaves on top or with many dying branches are clear signs of trouble, as are large, wart-like growths on the trunk that mark a diseased area.
Because they have shallow roots and long, heavy branches, water oaks and laurel oaks are particularly prone to being blown down in high wind. In a dying tree, decay and rot can spread and weaken branches, increasing the risk to nearby homes and cars unless the tree is pruned or removed entirely.
Package offers for contractors to install new trees, ranging from 8 to 14 feet tall when planted, have circulated during the past couple of years to homeowners in Riverside and San Marco. A similar offer is planned this summer in Springfield, and Greenscape wants to expand the drives by working with community associations, said Dooley, whose group oversees the efforts.
Trees already on the decline
Prices for delivering and planting trees vary greatly, but often run between $200 and $500, said Bob Burns, Jacksonville branch manager for Davey Tree Expert Co.
The city has been tracking trees on public property, said City Councilman Michael Corrigan, whose district includes older neighborhoods hugging the river's west bank. As big oaks are taken down on public land, he said, they're being replaced with live oaks that can survive for centuries, or with smaller trees better suited for use around power lines.
A tree-planting campaign in Jacksonville a decade ago will help soften some of the loss as the post-WWII oaks die. The city reported in 2001 that just over one million trees - many of them shorter, flowering trees such as crape myrtles and redbuds - had been planted or given away to residents under a five-year campaign launched by former Mayor John Delaney.
Even then, however, the city's tree cover was apparently losing ground.
Citing satellite photos and other data collected between 1992 and 2002, American Forests estimated that Jacksonville had lost about 12 percent of its woods over 10 years.
http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2010-02-03/story/greatest_generation_of_trees_fading_in_jacksonville
Between that and JEA contractors butchering those anywhere near a powerline the urban core will soon be left with no tree canopy!
If you have any large trees on your property it is a good idea to have a arborist come in and thin out the canopy before hurricane season. They thin it out taking the suckers and other non-essential limbs off to protect the general health of the tree. It also makes them less wind resistant and better able to keep standing in the big blow. You also will need them to check and see if there is any rot inside the core.
This is not rocket science, must be a slow news day, trees on the front page, if they look like they are diseased or are not growing (showing mostly dead branches), even a Florida graduate can tell that the tree is a candidate for coming down.
RAP has an active tree sale program going on now that is taking orders until March 1st. Prices range from 225-425 including the delivery, installation, and a one year guarantee.
http://www.riversideavondale.org/index.php?id=98
it mentioned that in the article. it also mentioned how Springfield was going to have a similar program this summer....
Why do trees always get planted in the middle of summer in Springfield....even a Florida Grad knows this is NOT the time of year to plant trees...
If by 'Florida Grad' you mean a graduate from UF specifically, then please clarify. Funny that you would choose the best research University in the South as your target of ridicule ;)
On a more serious and related note, what would the height of a 60 year old water oak be?
They can range from 40-80ft tall. My partner and I ahve one that is about 25 years old and it is 50ft tall.
Water oaks and Laurel Oaks are native and are dangerous trees once they pass 30 years of age, as they naturally rot at the core. People think because it is a native of Florida, it is wind resistent, not so much with these two. I have several tree and palm tree books, and one called Stormscaping. It is a good book to use for wind and not wind resistent plants from shrubs to full canopy trees.
On a side note, one palm tree that causes a lot of problems is the commonly planted Queen Palm. People think it is a palm, so it is wind resistent. No, these can fall in winds as low as 60mph. The taller they are, the more likely than can fall, along with you local soil conditions, etc.
Stormscaping book:
http://www.amazon.com/Stormscaping-Florida-Gardening-Vol-3/dp/0971222029
so the Live Oak is the one to plant then, eh?
Live oaks are the best. Planting trees in the middle of summer is not a good idea, unless someone is going to water it everyday!
Quote from: mtraininjax on February 03, 2010, 08:30:51 AM
This is not rocket science, must be a slow news day, trees on the front page, if they look like they are diseased or are not growing (showing mostly dead branches), even a Florida graduate can tell that the tree is a candidate for coming down.
Two guys were walking down the street and one says, "Hey, I just heard a great Georgia Tech joke."
"Hold on," says the other fellow, "I went to Georgia Tech."
"Oh. Well, in that case, I''ll tell it very slowly."
Quote from: fsu813 on February 03, 2010, 01:34:09 PM
so the Live Oak is the one to plant then, eh?
I think I made a post about this last year, but the best one's to plant for shade that are very wind resistent are Magnolias and Live Oaks.
However, Water and Laurel Oaks provide necessary shade quickly and are natives. The key is to plant them in an area further area from your house, reducing the threat of it coming down. However, with proper trimming and maintenance, they can be kept around for a long time. That cna be said for most trees though, proper care can give them full or extend their life span.
Quote from: fsujax on February 03, 2010, 01:50:00 PM
Live oaks are the best. Planting trees in the middle of summer is not a good idea, unless someone is going to water it everyday!
You can plant in summer, but for young trees, that are under 5 years of age, need to be planted in the paring as the soil warms. Warming soil promotes healthy root growth. The summer can shock them with the extreme heat and sometimes incredible amounts of rainfall. However, older trees and palms can be planted during the summer, just be sure to stake them to help stabilize them in the crazy summer winds.
reednavy,
you seem to the expert.....
3 questions:
- are magnolia's & live oaks relatively drought resistant?
- do thier roots pose a threat to a house's foundation?
- if so, could i get away with planting about about 15 away from the foundation?
Thanks!
Yes they're drought resistant, but that is after years, usually 3-5, after being planted and becoming established. However, they're both only moderate resistant for the first 10 years, but can be very tolerant. The same can be said for magnolias.
Borth trees roots can pose a threat to foudnations, as both species get quite large, which equal large roots.
15ft away seems reasonable, but I have no idea what your yard is like, so use your best personal judgement.
This site is one of my absolute favorites, and has info galore on just about any plant out there.
http://www.floridata.com/index.cfm
http://fufc.org/ (http://fufc.org/)
This is the site for Florida Urban Forestry Council. I have a few poster/brochures from them (JEA sponsored the project), and it's great info about proper trees, height/easement conditions, etc.
QuoteRAP has an active tree sale program going on now that is taking orders until March 1st. Prices range from 225-425 including the delivery, installation, and a one year guarantee.
Uh, the crape myrtles that Mayor Delaney gave away in 2002 are still growing in our yard and in our City Maintained median. THEY WERE FREE. Even a Florida grad knows the value of Free.
Live oaks are the best and grow relatively quick in the early years and then slow down. Greenscape has a tree sale usually the last Saturday in February. Their website will have more info. The sell Treaty Oak live oaks for $15 but they are small. With some attention, they grow quick.
You can also buy historic landmark tree seedlings, such as the Treaty Oak from http://www.historictrees.org/produ_ht/floridlive.htm
My neighborhood lost a lot of giant oaks back in the 2004 hurricanes. After that, some homeowners decided to get proactive and cut even more down. This weakens the remaining trees as the density of trees in an area helps protect them. Hurricane Faye brought several more down.
So, I go to the Greenscape sale and buy 5-10 trees every year and when a new homeowner moves into the neighborhood, I take a tree and plant it for them as a house-warming gift.
FSU813 - 15ft should be fine for a live oak. Anything closer, I would use a river birch or crape myrtle. The roots are less intrusive.
what do you consider growing "quick"?
i HATE crape myrtles. the city planted one in my front yard. i'm thinking of digging it out and putting something i like there.
Quote from: Captain Zissou on February 03, 2010, 12:03:43 PM
If by 'Florida Grad' you mean a graduate from UF specifically, then please clarify. Funny that you would choose the best research University in the South as your target of ridicule ;)
not that this is a thread about UF, but I think the folks at Vandy, Emory, and Tulane might disagree
Quote from: Sigma on February 03, 2010, 07:38:30 PM
Live oaks are the best and grow relatively quick in the early years and then slow down. Greenscape has a tree sale usually the last Saturday in February. Their website will have more info. The sell Treaty Oak live oaks for $15 but they are small. With some attention, they grow quick.
You can also buy historic landmark tree seedlings, such as the Treaty Oak from http://www.historictrees.org/produ_ht/floridlive.htm
My neighborhood lost a lot of giant oaks back in the 2004 hurricanes. After that, some homeowners decided to get proactive and cut even more down. This weakens the remaining trees as the density of trees in an area helps protect them. Hurricane Faye brought several more down.
So, I go to the Greenscape sale and buy 5-10 trees every year and when a new homeowner moves into the neighborhood, I take a tree and plant it for them as a house-warming gift.
FSU813 - 15ft should be fine for a live oak. Anything closer, I would use a river birch or crape myrtle. The roots are less intrusive.
You are really a nice guy...btw.
Quote from: fsu813 on February 03, 2010, 08:00:22 PM
what do you consider growing "quick"?
i HATE crape myrtles. the city planted one in my front yard. i'm thinking of digging it out and putting something i like there.
I'd say "quick" for any oak would be from a small sapling (waist high) to 8-10' tall within 5 years. Oaks do grow slow as they get older, but hey, all trees do. Oaks that can live over a hundred years +, grow at a slower rate than other trees. I'm speaking very broadly here. But most people think that oaks grow slow from the start. They don't. With proper care, they can grow rapidly in the early years.
Drive by 38 E 5th St (green house between Main and Hubbard. In the lot just to the right are 2 treaty oak trees planted in 2005. They were about 5-6' when planted and didn't seem to do much for a couple years as those years had a lot of drought periods. But once the roots got established they've done well and started providing some shade to the west side of the house. Its time for them to be pruned and they should continue to grow at a good rate for the next few years.
I don't care for crape myrtles either. I jut mentioned them because they can be planted close to the house. I like river birch and also look at drake elm.
QuoteYou are really a nice guy...btw.
Aww shucks.
Lakeshore Blvd. has lost a huge chunk of canopy in the last 20 years I've been living here. Every year a badass storm comes through, boom, you hear the thud of a tree hitting the ground or a transformer blowing and the power going out.
Quote from: Overstreet on February 03, 2010, 08:19:21 AM
If you have any large trees on your property it is a good idea to have a arborist come in and thin out the canopy before hurricane season. They thin it out taking the suckers and other non-essential limbs off to protect the general health of the tree. It also makes them less wind resistant and better able to keep standing in the big blow. You also will need them to check and see if there is any rot inside the core.
The old "air flow" myth is just that.... a myth. and besides, most 'tree surgeons' don't know squat about air flow anyway. Its just an old story to sell the home owners on pruning a tree to get some business. Once they're done, it'll look like JEA was there.
The other part of your statement is absolutely correct. A good certified arborist can help you by determining the overall health of a tree and make some prunings to lower the chances of future problems and balance the weight of leaning trees. Notice some trees that have a lot of roots near the surface, or the ground is "swollen" around the base of the tree? This can be a sign that there is a high probability of a fall during the next big storm. But then again, if the tree has other trees around it for protection, then maybe it won't fall for many years.
A good arborist can also use cables to prevent major branches from splitting the trunk in these old trees as well.
Live oaks add so much value to a homeowner, its worth it to hire a professional. Find a certified arborist, and not just a guy with a chainsaw and a sign on his truck.
The air flow thing is not a myth. I have seen it work in Central and South Florida in preparation for hurricane season. Quite a few of those trees remained standing, while others that had no care fell over. Of course, certain trees will fall over or split no matter what you do.
Quote from: reednavy on February 04, 2010, 02:28:12 PM
The air flow thing is not a myth. I have seen it work in Central and South Florida in preparation for hurricane season. Quite a few of those trees remained standing, while others that had no care fell over. Of course, certain trees will fall over or split no matter what you do.
That's right. You can't prove that those trees would have remained standing whether you pruned them or not. And it depends on the type of tree as well. These laurel and water oaks have shallow root systems and are prone to fall anyway. Its a fallacy (told often to sell a tree trimming job) that has been told so much that people believe it.
You can't say that you've seen it work because you can't prove it. Heck, I've seen pruned trees fall relatively easy. My neighbor moved in and "pruned" all of his trees to reduce a chance on a tree damaging his roof. Guess what? He lost about 3 during Faye. Faye wasn't even a bad storm. But it brought a lot of rain and the ground was so wet that the wind brought them right down.
I think if you've got a tree out by itself with no other trees around it to protect it and the tree is extremely thick in it's canopy, then it probably makes sense to have some limbs removed. All I'm saying is have a professional assess it and do the work.
If you believe the myth, fine. If it gives you peace of mind, then ok. It's like gardening, not an exact science.
http://www.greenscapeofjacksonville.org/
23rd Annual Flowering Tree Sale
Greenscape will celebrate twenty three years of providing quality plant material to Jacksonvillians as our Flowering Tree Sale gets underway at 7a.m. This annual event provides deeply discounted trees to the public and serves as a fundraiser for Greenscape of Jacksonville, the local non-profit tree planting volunteer organization. Be sure to come early as past years have been very successful and often sell out within a couple of hours! The location of the sale will be announced in plenty of time to make your plans to attend. By Mayoral Proclamation, the Flowering Tree Sale is Jacksonville’s official Arbor Day.
Thousands of trees and shrubs will be presented for sale at $10.00 each. A wide variety of species are usually offered, from Japanese Magnolias to Knock Out Roses. A final inventory of material will be posted closer to the sale. All material are sold in three gallon containers. Proceeds from the Sale support tree planting programs for Greenscape in Jacksonville.
As in the past, representatives from the Division of Forestry, tree growers, arborists, the Duval County Master Gardener Program, JEA Forestry and the American Society of Landscape Architects will be on hand to answer questions and assist in your selections.
DATE: Saturday, February 27, 2010
TIME: 7:00 a.m.
PRICE: FREE
LOCATION: Parking lot at the intersection of Philips Highway and Emerson St.
Get there early!
I got a Yoshino Cherry tree and redbud last year. My Yoshino is doing great and I'm waiting for it to flower next month, but the redbud ending up dieing with a couple months. But you can't beat $10. I remember a few years back when all the trees were free, now that was crazy. Anyways you do need to get there early if you want any of the good trees or you will end up with just oak or maple trees.
Quote from: Sigma on February 04, 2010, 03:03:55 PM
http://www.greenscapeofjacksonville.org/
23rd Annual Flowering Tree Sale
Greenscape will celebrate twenty three years of providing quality plant material to Jacksonvillians as our Flowering Tree Sale gets underway at 7a.m. This annual event provides deeply discounted trees to the public and serves as a fundraiser for Greenscape of Jacksonville, the local non-profit tree planting volunteer organization. Be sure to come early as past years have been very successful and often sell out within a couple of hours! The location of the sale will be announced in plenty of time to make your plans to attend. By Mayoral Proclamation, the Flowering Tree Sale is Jacksonville’s official Arbor Day.
Thousands of trees and shrubs will be presented for sale at $10.00 each. A wide variety of species are usually offered, from Japanese Magnolias to Knock Out Roses. A final inventory of material will be posted closer to the sale. All material are sold in three gallon containers. Proceeds from the Sale support tree planting programs for Greenscape in Jacksonville.
As in the past, representatives from the Division of Forestry, tree growers, arborists, the Duval County Master Gardener Program, JEA Forestry and the American Society of Landscape Architects will be on hand to answer questions and assist in your selections.
DATE: Saturday, February 27, 2010
TIME: 7:00 a.m.
PRICE: FREE
LOCATION: Parking lot at the intersection of Philips Highway and Emerson St.
Another really great landscape tree for this area is a Hackberry. They are very hurricane resistant because they have huge root systems and relatively thin limbs. Unlike Live Oaks, they lose their leaves in the wintertime. They are native to the area, but no nurseries seem to be growing them. You have to find saplings in the woods.
Their roots will absolutely destroy anything close to them.
There are actually a good number of Hackberry trees around Riverside. They are the trees that have trunks that look like they are covered with warts. If you have ever been to the White Lion Pub in St. Augustine and sat on their patio across from the fort, you have sat under the biggest Hackberry tree anyone has ever seen. It is huge.
Hackberry, are you serious? They're just as bad as Water Oaks as they grow fast, but are notorious for having rotted cores and are not very wind resistant. It is a tree that has strong roots, but I have witnessed many that have snapped at the abse due to rotting on the inside. I'm from Tennessee, where they're native as well, and can tell you they're one of the most common native species that falls in storms be either blowing over or losing large limbs. They are also well known for having disease and insect problems, adding to their vulnerability.
They don't have those problems here in Florida. Tennessee is at the extreme northern edge of their range so they are constantly stressed there. The one in St. Augustine has to be a couple of hundred years old and has withstood many hurricanes. There are lots of big ones standing proud in some of our old growth bottomlands. Walk south from the entrance of Freedom Commerce Center off Philips Highway into the protected area and you will see some magnificent specimens. I think they like fairly wet soil. There is also a cypress as big as a redwood back in there.
True, funny tree removal story: We had some neighbors who had a big house on the St. John's River in San Jose. There was a huge Magnolia tree between their house and the bulkhead of the river. They started worrying about the tree blowing over on their house in a storm so they consulted one of those "tree surgeons" you talked about earlier. Of course he convinced them to have the tree removed.
A big crane was brought in to remove the branches and trunk over the house since the tree was not accessible to heavy equipment any other way. All went well until the biggest section of the trunk was lifted. It was so heavy that the outrigger feet of the crane sunk into the ground and the crane toppled over, dropping the trunk through the roof of the house, the ceiling, the floor, the downstairs ceiling, the dining room table and the bottom floor floor like a pile driver. I was standing across the street watching when it happened and felt the ground shake. Magnolia is HEAVY!
Of course the "tree surgeon" was uninsured and immediately left the scene, leaving behind the rented crane and the magnolia trunk in the house. It took them days to get it out of the house and caused even more damage. MORAL: If it ain't broke, don't try to fix it.
We planted one of the Treaty Oak seedlings about four feet tall in out front yard in Southside about ten years ago. When we moved it was close to twenty feet tall and ten/twelve inches in diameter. Live Oaks can grow fast in the right circumstances! Maybe the Treaty Oak specimens have some genetic advantages too.
Northern limit? The Hackberry is seen throughout the Great Plains and Midwest as well, where it is native.
http://www.gardenguides.com/taxonomy/common-hackberry-celtis-occidentalis/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtis_occidentalis
Of course, there are rarities in each species.
QuoteOf course the "tree surgeon" was uninsured and immediately left the scene, leaving behind the rented crane and the magnolia trunk in the house. It took them days to get it out of the house and caused even more damage. MORAL: If it ain't broke, don't try to fix it.
right on. Also be wary of "tree surgeons" combing the neighborhoods right after a storm. Most of these guys have no license, no insurance, and are not bonded in anyway. If they get hurt on your property ..... well, you know.
I do like hackberry as well. Never thought of planting one though.
Does anyone know when the inventory list is going to be released? It would be great if they had some cherry blossoms like Hanjin was able to acquire.
I dug up a crape myrtle in the front yard and about to replace it with a 5 gallon lagustrum(however its spelled). I agree with Sigma and FSU on the crape myrtles.. not a big fan.
I'm looking at a good shade tree for the back yard. Live Oaks get too big as I want to plant it near a shed in the backyard. Does anyone know if I'm going to have the same problem with a Drake Elm? Going to work I drive by tons of Drake Elms in the southside area that were planted a few years ago and they don't appear to grow as fast or big as the Live Oaks do in the same period of time.
If anyone in the riverside/avondale/fairfax/ortega area is going to this but do not have a truck, pm me I'd be glad to offer free space in the bed of my truck as long as you're willing to get up early!
Drake Elms are relatively fast growers, of course not as fast as the native Live Oak. They're inexpensive, easy to maintain, and have roots that don't run along the surface. I have on from the plant sale last year and it has grown 2 feet since then.
QuoteDoes anyone know when the inventory list is going to be released?
There's an ad in todays paper, though their website should tell you.
And you should be fine with a drake elm or river birch close to the shed. The good thing about the river birch - buy a container that looks like there are 2 or more sprouts coming out of the ground. You can split these and get several trees for the price of one!
Thanks Reed and Sigma!
The inventory list has been added to their website today!
http://greenscapeofjacksonville.com/index.php/events/view/23rd_annual_florewing_tree_sale/ (http://greenscapeofjacksonville.com/index.php/events/view/23rd_annual_florewing_tree_sale/)
Reed, Sigma, et al.... I picked up a Japanese Magnolia at the sale on Saturday... I started digging where I wanted to plant that particular tree and (as feared) came across piping for my sprinkler system. Do you know what the root structure is like for this tree? The pipe is about 10" below grade. Should I pretty much abandon any thought of planting anything short of perennials or shrubs in this spot?
I would not plant directly over any pipe or conduit. If you can adjust a foot or so on either side you should be ok, as most root systems will grow around obstacles. Japanese Magnolias do not get too big so I don't think the root systems would cause a problem. I was forced several years back to run irrigation pipes "through" some large oak roots. I've never had a problem. But planting directly over a pipe is a no-no because the tap root goes straight down.
I bought several trees Sat myself. What a crowd - and I got there at 7:30. I bought bald cypress, red maple, and river birch. My neighbor bought some live oaks and bald cypress. None have gone in my yard as I have too many. We went and planted them all in our neighbors' yards(with permission of course). Some of our neighbors are new, others are elderly who have lost their trees due to age or storms.
I'm working on getting some treaty oaks donated for community improvement and will let you know if that happens.
Quote from: Sigma on March 01, 2010, 11:30:53 AM
I would not plant directly over any pipe or conduit. If you can adjust a foot or so on either side you should be ok, as most root systems will grow around obstacles. Japanese Magnolias do not get too big so I don't think the root systems would cause a problem. I was forced several years back to run irrigation pipes "through" some large oak roots. I've never had a problem. But planting directly over a pipe is a no-no because the tap root goes straight down.
I bought several trees Sat myself. What a crowd - and I got there at 7:30. I bought bald cypress, red maple, and river birch. My neighbor bought some live oaks and bald cypress. None have gone in my yard as I have too many. We went and planted them all in our neighbors' yards(with permission of course). Some of our neighbors are new, others are elderly who have lost their trees due to age or storms.
I'm working on getting some treaty oaks donated for community improvement and will let you know if that happens.
Thanks for the advice Sigma! I'm going to do some measuring after work and see what kind of room I have to work with.
I was suprised about the amount of people! My dad and I got there about 6:45 and we weren't even close to the front of the line. He wanted some indian hawthorne's and some camelia's, but he unselfishly was too busy helping my two friends and I with our stash to grab some in time. I felt bad so I may go up to Hall's Nursery this week and buy him some anyway.
Here's a question somewhat related to the discussion: What's the best way to find a good certified arborist? I have a water oak in my front yard that has some rotten thick branches way up high. It looks bad enough that a couple of tree surgeons have left flyers at my door.
Absolutely the best Certified Arborist in this area is a guy named Early Piety. Funny name, but years and years of experience and he hates to cut trees down. Specialty Tree Surgeons is the company name and he uses "Tree Preservation Consultants" as their tag line. I've used him to save a couple of two hundred year old live oaks for me by cabling them and putting in lightening protection.
Highly recommended!
Thanks! I'll give him a try!