Bus ridership was down by less than .5%...but as the article states, the actual # of people riding may not be down and could actually be up (just taking fewer trips)....compare that with automobile usage, where traffic counts all over Florida went down by almost 5% in 2008 and likely didn't go back up in 2009.
http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2010-02-01/story/youre_just_a_rider_to_jta_jacksonville_ridership_count_is_a_mystery
Gotta love the T-U....great writing!
TUFSU, I think Larry did a fantastic job of getting it right in this article. We both know this is not an easy business for anyone without the "inner calling." There are way too many years of nautical, railroad, trail and highway, teamster and military terms and concepts to be sorted out by a layman. He seems to understand that riders passenger trips are two different things, and he is equally dismayed that NOBODY knows the details on passengers. I think he came across this mystery while researching another story, and found it riveting.
Actually there IS a way to calculate person trips, as well as multiple trips per person. I'll keep y'all posted.
OCKLAWAHA
I have no real problem with Larry's article...my issue is with the headline and tease sentence.
Although I must admit that Blaylock admitting that 342,000-427,000 people a month being too high seems very odd....if you assume that 2% of Jax. residents take the bus, than that would be 17,000 people per day....multiplied by 22 times a month, you get 374,0000...plus there are folks from other counties and visitors that use the trolley and skyway downtown.
CHECK THIS OUT Y'ALL!Quote from: tufsu1 on February 01, 2010, 10:16:09 AM
I have no real problem with Larry's article...my issue is with the headline and tease sentence.
Although I must admit that Blaylock admitting that 342,000-427,000 people a month being too high seems very odd....if you assume that 2% of Jax. residents take the bus, than that would be 17,000 people per day....multiplied by 22 times a month, you get 374,0000...plus there are folks from other counties and visitors that use the trolley and skyway downtown.
Not to mention the fact that JTA says it's passed the 10,000,000 riders a year milestone. If Mike Blaylock is correct, then they are substantially below that last year.
Using 380,000 as the average per month (split between Blaylock's high and low estimate) x 12 months 4,560,000 passengers per year on 60 routes! FYI folks GAINESVILLE hit the 4,000,000 mark in the last quarter of 09 alone, with only 37 routes! OCKLAWAHA
no Ock...you're confusing riders with people...I'm saying that it seems entirely reasonable to have close to 400,000 people using the system when there are over 850,000 riders a month....especially when considering that seniors are riding for free and are not being counted.
Based on those figures, JTA is getting over 10 million riders a year....and yes, Gainesville is higher because they count all the buses that circulate on the UF campus.
TUFSU1 - you have it right. Riders/passenger trips versus people. The point earlier about McDonalds is true - they care about how many hamburgers they sell... not how many people are buying those hamburgers. This is true with most business entities.
In public transit (bus, train, trolley, streetcar, whatever) you have to figure that "most" people are using the system more than once each month. So the number of riders (or trips) will of course be higher than the number of people taking those rides/trips. And if all the transit agencies are using the same method to calculate, they why all the flurry about JTA?
If JTA is comparing ridership numbers from year to year - and using the same methodology each time -then what's the issue here?
Also - Jacksonville public transit is FREE for seniors. In most other cities they pay some fee - be it $.50/ride or whatever.
Perhaps it (comparing apples to apples, and understanding the definition of apple) can give laypersons such as myself, the knowledge of how the numbers are driven. Public mass transit needs to be understood by the public.
Quote from: stephendare on February 01, 2010, 06:22:59 PM
because you cant grow if you don't know who isnt riding, newsman.
no transit system knows that exactly
wow...how prophetic!
I am just a poor dumb taxpayer but I have to ask............why not use something that makes sense? Ridership miles versus transit miles versus bus miles is confusing not to mention ridiculus! Come up with a common denominator that is a black and white number such as .... one rider per mile or two per mile. A simple mechanical counter operated by the driver and spot checked should give a real life number to just what is taking place! Let me see JTA cook those numbers!
the common denominator used by ALL transit agencies is ridership...plain and simple!
Quote from: stephendare on February 01, 2010, 10:00:41 PM
Quote from: tufsu1 on February 01, 2010, 09:02:22 PM
the common denominator used by ALL transit agencies is ridership...plain and simple!
and?
meaning that while it is useful to know what JTA's ridership is (and why it isn't higher), it is not to to try and discern the number of people using the system.
Guess I just can't explain it to you...maybe someone from a transit agency can.
Let's turn the question around ... how would you track how many people ride transit in a given day? Someone who lives in Moncrief and works in Southpoint, rides one bus downtown, catches another to Southpoint, then reverses in the afternoon. One person, and if I understand the article = 4 "trips". How would you tell that person from the one who got on at the same stop, but works downtown, and got a ride home with a friend? I don't think its a matter of transit agencies (as the article and tufsu said, they all count the same way) are trying to deceive anyone, there just isn't a good way to track the number of individuals. At least until our Overlords implant tracking chips in our hands or foreheads. ;)
Multiple sets of books is a specialty at JTA. They already used this "fuzzy accounting" to perfection with bus shelters in counting them and calculating maintenance costs to get their way with advertising.
The issue isn't simply determining how to measure usage. It's that JTA appears to exploit these un-standardized transit accounting habits by using whatever set of numbers conveniently suits their current purposes and does little or nothing to clarify what they really are communicating.
Just another step toward decreasing credibility with the public they serve.
Quote from: Charles Hunter on February 01, 2010, 11:08:54 PM
Let's turn the question around ... how would you track how many people ride transit in a given day? Someone who lives in Moncrief and works in Southpoint, rides one bus downtown, catches another to Southpoint, then reverses in the afternoon. One person, and if I understand the article = 4 "trips".
Charles, if JTA sold numbered (using scanable bar codes or magnetic stripes) "trip" tickets/passes, they should be able to easily compute trips and riders. Airlines do it everyday with passengers connecting flights.
In your example, they could sell a single transfer (two segment) "trip" ticket good for Moncrief to Southpoint with a connection Downtown. The ticket (or, perhaps, perforated tear-off segments) would be redeemed/run over a scanner (possibly connected via a wireless network to JTA's data center) at the initiation of each segment of the trip crediting that portion off of the amount associated with its encoded number. Unless JTA scanned the ticket upon exiting by the rider, they might not know how many passenger miles were put on, but at least they would have some idea that people getting on in Moncrief have an interest in taking buses headed toward Southpoint.
Such tickets would be issued by ticket machines that accept the change/currency or credit/debit/other plastic cards (in addition to the scanable tickets) riders present upon stepping on the bus. Riders would indicate how many segments they wish to travel. Better yet, the machines could issue round trip and/or multitrip single or multi segment tickets all at once saving steps when the rider makes the return trip. And, seniors would be issued free passes (still scanned as paid passes are) based on a scan of their drivers license or state ID computing their age.
Seems a system like this would give JTA pretty good info on ridership numbers and habits and expedite their accounting. Hey, they could even sell ads/coupons on the back side of tickets for riders to use after making their trips just like admission tickets to sporting and concert events do. Might be able to build bus shelters this way instead!
(http://media.point2.com/p2a/module/a400/c885/0f73/15485689d6d68615c25c/original.jpg)
(http://lh5.ggpht.com/_bQsuhPJduqQ/S2e8e8yCshI/AAAAAAAAB0k/ySfe92qXVgM/s800/Gainesville%20RTS%20station.jpg)
Jacksonville's little sister KNOWS how to spell BUS!Quote from: tufsu1 on February 01, 2010, 02:57:06 PM
no Ock...you're confusing riders with people...I'm saying that it seems entirely reasonable to have close to 400,000 people using the system when there are over 850,000 riders a month....especially when considering that seniors are riding for free and are not being counted.
Based on those figures, JTA is getting over 10 million riders a year....and yes, Gainesville is higher because they count all the buses that circulate on the UF campus.
Correction, I'm not confusing riders with users (passengers), but it is obvious from the comments I repeated on the Blaylock numbers that somebody is VERY CONFUSED.
Since we are looking at Transit and Hamburgers, consider a car pulls up at the drive through window, one person orders for the 3 lunch hour buddies. The order is bagged, one got a single burger and another got a triple burger, while the last guy got 3 regular small burgers... Tomorrow you scan the tickets and record the numbers in the computer, does that ticket indicate ONE SALE? or does it indicate 6 SALES? Maybe 6 customers? Maybe 1 very hungry customer? Nobody really knows at Mickey D's either. What Mickey D's has that most "JTA'S" don't have is a staff of expert number crunches that stand in endless surveys, call centers, customer satisfaction forms, complaint forms, comments, and tweak the operation to produce the most burgers in a day.
In transit we would LIKE to produce the most rides per day, and like the burger joint, we really don't care if it's 100 rides and 100 people, or 100 rides and 25 people, the money is from the 100 rides, that is where the "Plain and Simple" comes into play.
Saying there is no way to track these numbers is just as bogus as confusing all the counting methods and calling it "slight of hand," which it is NOT! As point out, from simple counters, to electronic data entry, transfers with automatic carbon copy's or stubs, and fare-less buses with all fare collection done via automated machine, or fare free and roll it into taxes such as city parks or library's with a free trip record card. Don't think passengers will bite? I'm sure as hell I can get us accurate numbers and many new choice riders, I'll be talking to JTA soon.
Finally, TUFSU1, sorry friend, you are misinformed about Gainesville RTS. The numbers for the system are broken into two groups, the main group is for the Regional Transit buses, and the smaller group is campus circulators.
In FY 2009 they posted 7,110,777 riders on the regional side, and 1,829,203 riders on the Campus Routes, plus toss in another 75,663 special service rides, for a grand combined total of 9,015,643 for the year, which university or no university is a STUNNINGLY excellent performance in a city of that size. OCKLAWAHA
Ock, don't UF students ride FREE anywhere in the system, not just on campus? As you have said, ridership would go up here if JTA went fare-free.
Wonder if Gainesville RTS knows how many "people" ride - or are they guility of "slight of hand" with the numbers, too. Surely, with all those smart university types they have figured this out. ;)
Well I have been following this with great interest...............JTA is so used to cooking their books, I don't think they have a hoot in hell of coming up with a number that is accurate and concise, what ever number they need........poof.....there it is! The way things are set up, the answer will allways be just what they want to substantiate, no matter if it bus's, BRT or more concrete! I think they need some oversight and some goals set in concrete.............don't produce, good bye!
Ock...I am not misinformed about the RTS figures in Gainesville as I've been working on projects there for about 10 years....they've done a great job there but it all stems from policies at UF
Charles is correct that UF students ride the bus for "free"...as they pay a transportation fee that covers that service.
So 2 million of the 9 million RTS trips (or riders, Stephen) are campus circulator trips...but do some research...you will find that before they instituted the "fare-free" system, their ridership was around 1 million passengers.....and today, many of the routes on the eastside (non-student area) still run on 30-60 minute headways with not much increase in riders.
In addition, many of the routes were reconfigured to serve campus and the adjacent communities...and they ALL BUT BANNED PARKING FOR STUDENTS ON CAMPUS!
Here's the info. on parking fees and restrictions at UF
http://www.parking.ufl.edu/pages/parkingdecpr.htm
http://www.parking.ufl.edu/lifted_parking_restrictions.htm
Bottom line...one of the most important factors in making transit successful is minimizing the amount of free parking provided!
Quoteor making sure that the people cant really afford cars. (like the students) and making most of the city walkable. The only place that the parking is restricted is the place the everyone has already spent 20 thousand dollars to get to. This argument incidentally, is insane.
Not really. Pretty much everyone I knew at UF that lived off campus had cars but left them parked due to lack of parking on campus. We rode the bus instead. I even had a commuter pass and still rode the bus because if you didn't get there by about 8am, you weren't getting a spot.
All I know Stephen is that undergraduate students at UF not living on campus can only park on the outskirts...and they pay for the right to do so.
And since that policy and the "fare-free" system for students were instituted, ridership on RTS has gone from 1 million to 10 million.
Maybe someone who wet to school at UF would like to chime in on this.
I believe the same thing happens in Tallahasee. The parking policy is not a strict as UF's, but I used to ride the bus for free around Tallahassee.
Quote from: stephendare on February 02, 2010, 09:03:38 AM
You cannot distill a market place policy by using a post parket dynamic. People have already paid the Tuition and therefore already committed to the product. Their choosing period is over.
fine...so maybe I agree that parking downtown should be free so that retail could cmpete on the same level as suburban retail....but hardly anyone rides transit to suburban retail.
While free parking may be good for businnesses, it is bad for transit!
QuoteTheir choosing period is over.
Is it? You could choose to walk, ride your bike, call a taxi or wake up early enough to get a spot in one of the commuter lots. There are still choices.
Quote from: stephendare on February 02, 2010, 09:12:00 AM
You can punish people into a behavior, but you can reward people into a lifestyle.
You can also do both...which is what I am advocating!
.
QuoteI think the problem with transit is its timidity, to be honest. It has so many natural advantages over car ownership that if it was in any way well planned and effective people would choose it over driving.
I think some would choose transit over driving but others wouldn't. I'm pretty sure in one of the Springfield threads mtrain basically said there was no way he was giving up his auto. You would choose transit- I probably would too. I think the important thing is to give people mobility options. As it stands now in Jax, if you don't have a car it can be very difficult to get around. That's not a good thing.
Thats what ridership surveys are for
Quote from: tufsu1 on February 01, 2010, 06:41:02 PM
Quote from: stephendare on February 01, 2010, 06:22:59 PM
because you cant grow if you don't know who isnt riding, newsman.
no transit system knows that exactly
Quote from: tufsu1 on February 02, 2010, 09:07:41 AM
Quote from: stephendare on February 02, 2010, 09:03:38 AM
You cannot distill a market place policy by using a post parket dynamic. People have already paid the Tuition and therefore already committed to the product. Their choosing period is over.
fine...so maybe I agree that parking downtown should be free so that retail could cmpete on the same level as suburban retail....but hardly anyone rides transit to suburban retail.
While free parking may be good for businnesses, it is bad for transit!
Not if you MAKE the "free" parking PAY for the mass transit...
Yeah, I know... So THINK about that!OCKLAWAHA
One way.............buy a yearly parking pass, one price color coded to specific area's or one price good for anywhere, prices flat feed'd! You want to drive.............no displayed pass, ticket!
Quote from: cline on February 02, 2010, 09:17:31 AM
.QuoteI think the problem with transit is its timidity, to be honest. It has so many natural advantages over car ownership that if it was in any way well planned and effective people would choose it over driving.
I think some would choose transit over driving but others wouldn't. I'm pretty sure in one of the Springfield threads mtrain basically said there was no way he was giving up his auto. You would choose transit- I probably would too. I think the important thing is to give people mobility options. As it stands now in Jax, if you don't have a car it can be very difficult to get around. That's not a good thing.
This is true, and even those of us who have used public transportation (in different cities of course) and would be open to using it here won't because:
1-the routes are dreadful
2-the feeling of saftey is missing from most routes
3-most bus stops are just stupid, an old tired and in some cases splintered wooden bench
4-outside of the metro area you still need to hike it to wherever it is you are usually trying to get to.
Our bus system is not set up very, in fact sometimes I wonder where the heck they are trying to move from and to???
QuoteOne way.............buy a yearly parking pass, one price color coded to specific area's or one price good for anywhere, prices flat feed'd! You want to drive.............no displayed pass, ticket!
Or age quickly by laying out in the sun to pass yourself off as over 65 and get a free bus pass.