I'm thinking about getting a house in Springfield. I really like the neighborhood but don't know much about home buying/owning so I'm not sure if I'm 'ready' for that yet. But given the down market and first-time buyer credit, I figured it was at least something I should look into.
Realizing that this question is vague and leaves a lot to personal preference, are there certain areas I should look at or others I should avoid? Anything Springfield specific I should consider that I may not have thought of? I've been mainly been looking south of 8th between Broad and Ionia. I'm probably going to meet with a RE agent in the next week but I wanted to get some feedback from the people in the know here before meeting with anyone. Thanks for your help!
Well, 9A, that covers almost all of Springfield. :-) All that's left is 9th to 12th. We live up that way. Lots of beautiful homes between 8th and 12th. Suggest you work with a real estate agent who is familiar with Springfield.
You best bet is to just spend time over here. Talk to neighbors in their yards, or at three layers or 3rd and market.
Come over at various times to get familiar with the types of activity, and learn your own comfort levels.
Most of all, attend events. Get to know the people here. They really are what make this community fun and interesting to be a part of.
Just be aware that condition issues (especially historic homes) & WDO issues can really complicate the approval process of your loan. If you're trying to get FHA financing, any kind of a fixer upper is probably out of the question (unless you do a 203k FHA rehab loan). Those loans will take longer to close and interest rate is usually 1.5-2% higher than a standard FHA loan would be.
A "hidden" issue that you or your agent might not be aware of until your inspection might be knob & tube wiring. Unless the home has been completely rewired most homes in the n'hood were built with knob & tube and would most likely still have some active knob & tube. Anything other than conventional financing may be unlikely if that is the case, also insurance may be difficult to procure. Also, keep in mind that many times a home will be advertised as "updated" electrical, that usually means a newer panel and new service but not necessarily re-wired with new Romex.
Also, after working as a Realtor in Springfield for the last 6 years also be aware that I've seen more drywood termites in Springfield than in any other area of town. In contrast, although the homes are of a similar era, I have not seen many instances of drywood termites at all in Riverside. All that being said, there is some fantastic architecture in Springfield but also explore your options in Riverside, St. Nicholas, Murray Hill and also Northshore/Panama Park area. Hope that helps some and best of luck.
I was curious... :)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knob_and_tube_wiring
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6c/Knob_and_tube_1930.jpg/250px-)
Note how beadboard was often used as subflooring (often roof decking/sheathing as well).
What was once considered a utility product is now used as a mid-hi end finish material.
Oh boy is that a familiar sight! As primitive as it looks, until the advent of modern insulation materials that was the safest form of wiring. Rather than depending on the integrity of the insulation material, it used physical separation of the wires to make them safe. The wires could be bare and still be safe.
Rather than using junction boxes, fixtures were actually soldered directly to the wires.
Because most of our houses in Springfield and Riverside are balloon framed, rewiring is actually quite easy. Pull off a baseboard and you can see all the way from the ground to the attic. Put the plug outlets in the baseboard and you won't even have to deal with much plaster.
Bucket, that probably isn't sub-floor. Most of the old houses didn't have one. That is probably the bottom side of the finish floor. One side up for porches and the smooth side up for floors inside. Because it is tongue and groove a sub-floor wasn't necessary.
DW, did you ver insulate those exterior wall cavities? It sounds like you've done some rewiring.
I would like to know what method of isulation you used (blown, batts (typical fiberglass) or isonene (sp)?
If so, did you remove plaster?
Its also worth mentioning to you 9A that Springfield, Riverside and Avondale are considered locally-designated historic districts. This means that any exterior alterations or changes to the site itself (fences, driveways, sidewalks) require a Certificate of Appropriateness (COA) from the Historic Preservation Section of the Planning and Development Department. The purpose of this protection is to make sure as much of the historic fabric of the structure and neighborhood is preserved and protected.
Things like window and siding replacements aren't typically approved unless the condition is in such a state that it is beyond repair. If you want more information on what kinds of restrictions you may be facing on a potential new home try giving them a call, they are a great resource. Their number is 630-1904.
Quote from: Dog Walker on February 01, 2010, 08:58:51 AM
Bucket, that probably isn't sub-floor. Most of the old houses didn't have one. That is probably the bottom side of the finish floor. One side up for porches and the smooth side up for floors inside. Because it is tongue and groove a sub-floor wasn't necessary.
I have often seen finish floor only, but never with a bead on the underside. I have seen beadboard used as sub, very often.
The majority of my experience has been in newer construction, with nary a true historic rennovation or remodel in my portfolio. I have remodeled structures more than 70 years old, however.
Bucket, I am very much against removing the lathe and plaster in these old houses as I am convinced that much of the structural integrity of a balloon framed house comes from it. Drywall just can't have the same structural strength especially if it gets wet which it would in a hurricane. If the plaster is too far gone to save, then at least save the lathe and put drywall over that and multiply the number of fasteners beyond code into the field of the sheets.
Insulation is iffy too. The National historic preservation people advise not to use urethane foam or fiberglas that has a liner as they will both hold moisture and cause rot. Evidently these house breath a lot and have survived because of it. I would love to be able to pull a siding board up high on my old house and put icynene foam all the way down each wall cavity. It is an open cell foam that in theory allows for the passage of water vapor. Don't know if it has ever been tested so I won't do it until it is proven.
The best I have been able to do in these hard-to-heat houses is to stuff fiberglas into the bottom of each wall cavity from underneath the house to stop the wind from blowing up and leaking in around the baseboards and electrical boxes. The wall cavities can still breath but you get some insulating value out of the dead air space.
My current old house was built in 1910 so we are going to have a 100th birthday party for it this year. All of the millwork comes from the 1910 Sears and Roebuck builders catalog and it was fun to see how the builder saved money by putting cheaper windows on the back of the house where they didn't show and more expensive ones on the front where they did.
Except for a kitchen remodel, the whole house was still on knob and tube wiring when we got it.
9a is my backyard,
check out www.myspringfield.org
it's a website just for Historic Springfield....with a forum, photos, interviews, etc for and by residents.
it's just getting up and running now, but it's very helpful.
Last year I did a remodel which included removing and replacing all the exterior siding. We drilled (hole saw) a 3" hole in each void (spaces between studs) about every four feet, vertically. Insulation was then blown in (the newspaper/fiber/fireproofing type.. forget what it is called) prior to re-installation of the siding. Old house insulated!
This method could work without removing old clapboards, depending on the profile of the siding: (is it atleast 4-5 inches tall?) You would need to save each peice (we taped our plywood pieces to the wall for reinstallation) and putty it back into place then sand 'er down.
A good time to do this would be when considering repainting.
we have a subfloor in my home, it is 1 x 8 heart pine laid on the diagonal with finished 1 x 3 heart pine T&G on top. We also still have working knob and tube just for the historic lighting fixtures. No insulation, all lathe and plaster and the windows are all double hung originals. There is also 1 x 6 heart pine sheathing on the exterior walls covered by 4" beveled siding. The house does breath and it is because of this that we've not tried to insulate, but it does stay fairly cool in the summer and is pretty cold in the winter. Its pretty sturdy and that 100 yr old heart pine is tough to nail and drill.
I'm a Realtor who has specialized in Springfield for the past 6 years and I have worked with primarily first time home buyers and the programs. The hardest thing about the first time home buyer programs is that the house has to be in a like new condition to get the loan approved - even the renovated homes are hard to get this. But it can be done. You just have to get a house in a very specific condition. There are several new homes in Springfield that would easily pass through the First Time Home Buyer programs. SRG has several models and ONH is building the first LEEDhttp://www.usgbc.org/DisplayPage.aspx?CMSPageID=1988 (http://www.usgbc.org/DisplayPage.aspx?CMSPageID=1988) Certified house on W 11th Street. These new houses mimic the old style and have some similar characteristics, such as hardwood etc.
It is a great community and I hope the process goes as smoothly as possible!
From my understanding.... If you insulate the walls of a balloon frame that have plaster walls, you can run the risk of condensation building up in the insulation, creating mold and/or rot in the walls. The condensation coming from the cool air-conditioned inside and the humid moist outside during summer. Sounds plausable, though I'm really not sure. I'm think other variables are involved like shaded or sun drenched sides of the house, humidity levels and how cool or hot you keep the home.
Yeah. I still have knob & tube in the ceiling lighting in mine.
Quote from: 02roadking on February 01, 2010, 11:14:53 AM
From my understanding.... If you insulate the walls of a balloon frame that have plaster walls, you can run the risk of condensation building up in the insulation, creating mold and/or rot in the walls. The condensation coming from the cool air-conditioned inside and the humid moist outside during summer. Sounds plausable, though I'm really not sure. I'm think other variables are involved like shaded or sun drenched sides of the house, humidity levels and how cool or hot you keep the home.
Yeah. I still have knob & tube in the ceiling lighting in mine.
i have been told the same thing. got to let these old girls breathe. somehow doesn't make me feel any better when the winter time electric bills come in though.
Bucket, I used that blown-in paper fiber method in a 1940's house on St. Pete Beach when I was re-siding it. This was about 1973. It was wonderful insulation both for cold/heat and for noise. Made a huge difference in the comfort level. The house did not have wood lathe, but perforated "plaster" board which was what was used by the 40's. It is just heavy duty drywall with holes all over it for the plaster to key onto.
The woman who bought the house from us in 1979 just sold it this past year and I had a chance to talk with a neighbor who was still next door. He says that the house is still in perfect condition as is the cypress flitch siding we put on it over the original siding. So evidently the paper fiber insulation did not promote rot or cause any other problem in that situation.
We have to be careful here in Florida not to take too much of our insulation information from companies and organizations further north. Up there in the winter time they have a real problem with the warm, moist air inside a house condensing when it hits the much colder outside air and causing moisture problems, mold and rot, inside the wall cavities. We don't have this problem and it changes what materials we can use for insulation and even how it should be installed.
Karl, if your house was built prior to WWI (1918) then you have a better built house than most. The sheathing on the outside of the house under the siding is especially unusual and makes your house near indestructible except for fire. Heart pine is also known as fat lighter wood. I think it just gets harder and harder with age and I've given up trying to nail into it and instead drill pilot holes and use screws. Our old houses were built with first growth, Long-leaf pine too; a really fabulous wood and much stronger than any pine you can get now. Only place you can get it now is from the bottom of rivers and it is expen$ive!
In most of old Riverside (pre-WWI), the rich folks built their houses on the corner lots (no gated communities in those days!) and those are the houses with the fancy floors, trim and better construction. Middle class folks built their houses in the middle of the streets and those houses are usually smaller and less fancy than the corner ones. Our old house in the middle of a block was obviously built with a very close eye on costs. Even the upstairs floors and doors are of a lower grade than the ones downstairs where visitors could see.
Dog Walker, I'm interested in your comment about houses on corner lots usually built by wealthier people and so more elaborate. I've noticed that myself and wonder if you knew why that was?
I think it was because the lots were much bigger so the houses could be. Also at that time there were not so many places around where you could hook up to utilities like water, electric and gas. If you wanted to build a new house you had to go where the infrastructure was.
Also, as Ock will be quick to point out, even if you were rich you needed to be close to transportation. Pre-WWI that meant the streetcar lines. Look at the houses in old Riverside and you will see that the driveways and garages were added much later. Some house still don't have driveways and there are a lot of shared driveways too.
Go west of King street, which was developed post WWI and all of a sudden you will see original driveways and garages. Cars were becoming much more common then.
our home was built in 1909 and it is indeed sturdy. We recently had some of the siding replaced with cedar and our carpenter was really impressed with the heart pine sheathing underneath. And yes, fire is the one thing that I do worry about knowing how fast this heart pine burns. When we've had work done I've saved the heart pine scrap for our outside firepit. We also have a much higher grade heart pine flooring in the main downstairs part of the house. Its a very tight grain whereas the upstairs has a much wider grain.
Social manners were very different at that time. Visitors to your home never went into the "family" parts of the house. They would only ever see the hall, parlor and dining room. So the good floors, the good furniture, the good windows were put where they would impress the visitors. Grade one pine floors in the "public" rooms and grade three in the upstairs bedrooms. Our house is the same.
Heart pine was the cheap floor at the time. Oak with contrasting color inlay would be used in the really fancy houses. Now, of course, the heart pine is way more expensive than oak. Our house in St. Pete had Magnolia floors, something I have never seen before or since. It was harder and denser than oak by far.
Quote from: 02roadking on February 01, 2010, 11:14:53 AM........ If you insulate the walls of a balloon frame that have plaster walls, you can run the risk of condensation building up in the insulation, creating mold and/or rot in the walls. The condensation coming from the cool air-conditioned inside and the humid moist outside during summer. Sounds plausable, though I'm really not sure. I'm think other variables are involved like shaded or sun drenched sides of the house, humidity levels and how cool or hot you keep the home..............
A lot of this depends upon how the wall cavity is sealed or if it is sealed. For example if the bottom is open to the crawl space moisture can come up from below. The ex-laws 1929 buildings in SC had lap siding over felt, early "tar paper" over diagonal board sheathing. The "felt" provided the vapor barrier. The top and bottom of the balloon framing was sealed. So if it was done on yours you may be able to insulate no problem.
The key is moisture moves from hot temperature to cold. North or south the transfer is the same. We have more AC days compaired to northern heat days. So ours moves from outside to inside and we vapor barrier from the outside. Up north they vapor barrier under the inside finish because the moisture moves from heated inside to cold outside.
Yep, Our 2 story in the middle of the block had the Oak flooring downstairs and pine upstairs. The Heart Pine has beautiful hues of red and pink, but is unfortunately soft as hell.
Karl...I like calling it "fat lighter" and it is scary how flammable the resin is :o The frames of some of these houses will deflect a nail gun set at 100psi.
Florida Forester...You are correct, there might have been termites here several decades ago, but haven't heard of anyone finding any new damage...just rot and the occasional carpenter ant. (maybe they refuse to cross Main Street!?)
Ahh plaster and drywall. If you look closely you will see both human and pet hair of all colors mixed in with the plaster.
It was collected from barbers and beauty shops back in the day for those long forgotten artisans we called Master Plasterers.
You will sometimes have trouble getting long drywall boards to lay flat across the lathe....Remember..these masters "Floated" these walls and ceilings. My octagon dining room was impossible to Crown Mold due to the corners being rounded!Correct me if I'm wrong,but I heard people had to let this plaster dry for a couple month's before a family could move in.
Even if you remove lathe, you still might have to do a little tuck and trim with the framing to get a flat ceiling or wall (a rouge 2X4 will always be sticking out 3/4")
Lastly..don't be discouraged if you cant fish wire through a balloon stud, it is VERY common to have the bottom filled up with the old "Squeezings" of plaster...easy to remove.
You will never be totally finished ,but it's fun showing your friends what you completed...Yes it's rewarding
I think Historic Springfield is a great buy. Definitely, like Dan B said, get with a local Realtor. We have several that live in the hood. Springfield is on the National Register of Historic Places. Come live with us!!
Thanks everyone for the great suggestions and advice! This discussion is typical of MetroJax: interesting, insightful, and takes on a life of it's own. It also brings out what I love about Springfield. People are clearly passionate about their homes and their neighborhood - who wouldn't want to live in a place like that? :)
Our sentiments exactly, 9A. :-)
As a Realtor and an almost homeowner in Springfield, all I can say is - Springfield is great. We are looking forward to moving in soon. I have researched listings in Springfield as both a professional and a consumer and the comments you are getting are accurate. It's not a simple purchase because there are a lot of factors in each home to weigh and consider. But the values are there and financing is available, even for renovation loans. Let me know if I can help in any way, and welcome!