QuoteA request for federal stimulus package funding to pay for upgrades needed to allow passenger trains to use the Jacksonville-Miami line was rejected, according to the Florida Department of Transportation.
The requested $268 million would have been used to allow Amtrak passenger trains to use the Florida East Coast Railway line, thus connecting Florida east coast cities that do not receive Amtrak service through the current Miami-Tampa-Orlando-Jacksonville line, said Nazih K. Hadda, FDOT passenger rail development manager.
“We are going to continue to work with Amtrak to get this service,†said Hadda.
The state on Thursday received $1.25 billion to kick off a high-speed rail project linking Tampa and Orlando by 2014. Florida requested $2.5 billion for the Tampa-Orlando stretch and $30 million to begin the process of giving Orlando and Miami a similar service.
Federal Road Administration Administrator Joseph Szabo wrote in a Jan. 28 letter to FDOT that the proposed Jacksonville-Miami and Orlando-Miami project proposals “did not demonstrate that the project was sufficiently developed to receive funding for the proposed activities...â€
The Jacksonville-Miami rail line project would have brought three daily round-trip services.
http://jacksonville.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/stories/2010/01/25/daily46.html
Hasn't FDOT been working on this for over a decade?
Pardon my language, but this is f*cking bullsh*t. So this project wasn't "sufficietly developed enough", but oh, we can waste the money on a nonsense HSR line from Tamp to Orlando.
While this certainly doesn't put this project under, it takes a hit.
The feds did not fund more than 1/2 the original request of all that submitted applications. My guess is the associated Sunrail HSR funding request must have been rejected to. Nevertheless, there will be more funding opportunities. In the meantime, Jax should push and claw for everything rail-related that it can. That way we might not get left out in the cold again.
QuoteThe requested $268 million would have been used to allow Amtrak passenger trains to use the Florida East Coast Railway line, thus connecting Florida east coast cities that do not receive Amtrak service through the current Miami-Tampa-Orlando-Jacksonville line, said Nazih K. Hadda, FDOT passenger rail development manager.
Let's see. That would be equal to 1.66 Blanding/I-295 intersection "maybe" improvements by the same FDOT that asked for this money. Again, where is leadership in establishing genuine, not political, priorities.
Doesn't surprise me. I guess they think that a high speed rail line from Miami to Jax is really a rail line to nowhere; if that's the case, then the same applies to the Tampa to Orlando rail line; I'll bet no one rides it.
If they had approved the Jax to Miami line, there probably would have been more riders on the Jax to Miami than the Miami to Jax; don't think many in Miami have a "real" reason to go to Jax, but I think it would have been successful.
"HU"
Quote from: stjr on January 29, 2010, 06:13:52 PM
QuoteThe requested $268 million would have been used to allow Amtrak passenger trains to use the Florida East Coast Railway line, thus connecting Florida east coast cities that do not receive Amtrak service through the current Miami-Tampa-Orlando-Jacksonville line, said Nazih K. Hadda, FDOT passenger rail development manager.
Let's see. That would be equal to 1.66 Blanding/I-295 intersection "maybe" improvements by the same FDOT that asked for this money. Again, where is leadership in establishing genuine, not political, priorities.
don't even ask for comparable ridership on this route
(http://inlinethumb43.webshots.com/45994/2383199210104969885S600x600Q85.jpg)
Florida should be so lucky! If you want to ride this, and several other "Private" railroad's trains, you must go to Georgia.... The Progressive State!Jax - Miami would bury the HSR ridership figures if the damn train ran at an average speed of 45 MPH!
Anybody think Ocklawaha and the MJ 5 are the only ones making noise about this? Check out The United Rail Passenger Alliance, a Jacksonville based NATIONAL lobby and research group:
Read the complete article here: http://www.unitedrail.org/2010/01/28/this-week-at-amtrak-2010-01-28/QuoteFounded over three decades ago in 1976, URPA is a nationally known policy institute which focuses on solutions and plans for passenger rail systems in North America. Headquartered in Jacksonville, Florida, URPA has professional associates in Minnesota, California, Arizona, New Mexico, the District of Columbia, Texas, New York, and other cities. For more detailed information, along with a variety of position papers and other documents, visit the URPA web site at http://www.unitedrail.org.
URPA is not a membership organization, and does not accept funding from any outside sources.
1) To the surprise of no one, when political decisions are made, those decisions are not always based in reality. Today’s announcement from the White House on how the $8 billion pie for high speed rail is being carved up can be viewed as nothing more than a string of political decisions, but, with some good results.
Every region of the country gets a piece of the pie, but, surprisingly and, with a certain note of disappointment, the Chicago area received a rather small portion. Billions are needed to untangle the web of rail lines in and out of Chicago to make both passenger and freight trains move smoother and quicker. Illinois received only $1,102,000,000 for upgrading a line between Chicago and St. Louis. Minneapolis-Milwaukee-Chicago got another chunk of money â€" $823,000,000 â€" but not much of the money actually goes into Chicago-based infrastructure. On the east side of Chicago, the Chicago-Detroit line got $244,000,000 for stations and some signaling and infrastructure improvements.
Never really addressed were the core problems directly in and around Chicago, the nation’s largest rail hub.
Here in Florida, we received $1,250,000,000 which proves the point you shouldn’t look a gift high speed rail system in the mouth, but you really have to figure out how to feed it. Florida’s share of the spoils will pay for a hair less than half of the cost of building the redundant Orlando-Tampa high speed rail system, which the voters of Florida rejected in 2004 as too expensive.
So, now, the feds have given us half of the cost of the system, and we have to come up with a matching amount. The problem is, the State of Florida is pretty well broke, and we are a state with exceptionally high unemployment, an exceptionally high amount of home foreclosures, and a nearly stagnant tourism economy. We may have billions in federal monies coming, but it’s anybody’s guess if the Florida legislature and Governor Charlie Crist can find the matching funds. If it would have been a typical federal/state partnership of 80/20, most likely $500,000,000 could have been found by scrounging through various state capital budgets for a number of programs. But, with a 50/50 match, it’s not a lock Florida can find the money.
Take a look at one specific, unfunded project here in Florida; a favorite of many.
Amtrak and the Florida Department of Transportation proposed a request for $268 million â€" using the old, true metaphor of about the same or lower cost than an urban Interstate interchange â€" for restoring service on Florida’s original tourist passenger line and first real economic engine, the Florida East Coast Railway.
We lost primary passenger service on the FEC when the unions ferociously struck the railroad in 1963. All of the “name†Florida passenger trains from the Midwest and originating on the Atlantic Coast Line Railroad were moved off the FEC at Jacksonville and picked up the old Seaboard Air Line Railroad route at Auburndale, Florida into West Palm Beach, Fort Lauderdale, and Miami.
For $268 million, service would be restored on the FEC between Jacksonville and West Palm Beach, returning passenger trains to major tourist destinations such as St. Augustine, Daytona Beach, the Cape Canaveral area, and the coast just above Palm Beach. Included in the cost of restoration were eight stations, upgrading the FEC for 90 M.P.H. running, a track connection between the FEC and the Tri-Rail line at West Palm Beach which Amtrak uses, upgrades to the proposed Miami Intermodal Center, and additional rolling stock for regional frequencies in addition to splitting the Silver Meteor and Silver Star in Jacksonville and sending half of the train to Miami via the FEC and the other half via Orlando.
The proposal was a great, inexpensive deal for Florida, and, beyond Amtrak, would have benefitted the future of Tri-Rail by building the connecting track between the FEC and Tri-Rail’s track for future Tri-Rail expansion up and down the FEC to both the north and south of West Palm Beach.
What will happen now to this project? If Florida has to pony up $1.25 billion to build the high speed rail between Orlando and Tampa (which will provide redundant service to existing Amtrak service), will there be any money for new service on the FEC? It’s doubtful the proposed Orlando-Tampa high speed line will bring any additional visitors to Florida, but the FEC line has the potential of adding eight new highly desirable tourist destinations to the Amtrak system, as well as dramatically cutting the travel time between Jacksonville and Miami.
Most likely, it’s the same story all over the country. Political decisions were made to carve up the $8 billion, but what are the immediate results and consequences? Perhaps it would have been better to designate $1 billion to the Orlando-Tampa line, and almost fully fund the FEC project? Inquiring minds want to know.
OCKLAWAHA
If one looks at the high level plan for HSR nationally, they have Jacksonville associated with Atlanta for any potential linkage.
Clearly HSR funding in Florida is tourism based as they attempt to connect the 3 tourism centers. (Tampa-Orlando-Miami)
Jacksonville is not a tourism hub. It is a business-military-logistics hub. It used to be a financial hub as well, but that is in Charlotte now.
Business travelers will use the Atlanta/Charlotte air hubs out of Jacksonville before boarding an HSR.
While it would be great to have HSR from Jacksonville to destinations south, it won't be practical until there is linkage with HSR destinations from the northeast. That appears to be many years in the future.
We'll all either be burning in hell or basking in Heaven when they finally get HSR here in Jax. I guess we'll never know then.
"HU"
QuoteTampa-Orlando-Miami
Once again, our sister cities in Florida suck all the resources. Well screw 'em I say, let'd build our port to be #1 and then play "King of the Mountain" when it comes to port resources.
FDOT is telling NE Florida, it will not be in the same leagues as Tampa-Orlando-Miami.
They rightfully suck the resources because they fight and lobby for them while Jax sticks its head in the sand. Jax has no one to blame but Jacksonville itself.
We need to get the port deepend, our streetcar built and become the big dog in this state. No we won't have more people than south Florida just a better ecconomic engin.
Quote from: spuwho on January 30, 2010, 12:41:56 AM
If one looks at the high level plan for HSR nationally, they have Jacksonville associated with Atlanta for any potential linkage.
No, really they have us connected to the Northeast via Savannah - Charleston - Fayetteville - Richmond - Washington. They have also proposed a line running from Atlanta to Jacksonville, this is called "The Southeast high Speed Rail Corridor" Jacksonville doesn't need Atlanta or Orlando to succeed. http://www.sehsr.org/
Jacksonville is susposed to be connected to the Florida High Speed Rail in phase 2, though if we depend on Tallahassee, HU is right on his assessment of when that will happen! http://www.floridahighspeedrail.org/
Another reason to serve Jacksonville is the "sleeper" system, Gulf Coast High Speed Rail, a plan that is about where Florida was in 1974. Unless a super surge takes place, most of us WON'T be alive when it's built, but the ultimate terminal is Jacksonville, making a Houston - New Orleans - Gulf Coast - Jacksonville route a reality. A recent $992 million dollar grant for planning (INCLUDING Jacksonville) makes this system a real possilility: http://www.fra.dot.gov/us/content/649 and http://www.southernhsr.org/QuoteClearly HSR funding in Florida is tourism based as they attempt to connect the 3 tourism centers. (Tampa-Orlando-Miami)
This is true, though they "claim" to plan an extension to Jacksonville from Orlando, in the future. As it now stands, the High Speed Line will carry little else then tourists and the curious as it avoids all of Central Florida's town's and cities. Thus the one great advantage of rail, city center to city center is lost on Florida. Quote
Jacksonville is not a tourism hub. It is a business-military-logistics hub. It used to be a financial hub as well, but that is in Charlotte now.
Business travelers will use the Atlanta/Charlotte air hubs out of Jacksonville before boarding an HSR.
Jacksonville has always been a railroad hub and except for a couple of generations of absolutely STUPID misleaders, it would still be a railroad passenger hub. No amount of "tweaking" Orlando's Airport is going to make it into Jacksonville Terminal. High Speed Rail would thrive here, but even Amtrak would thrive even more so. Quote
While it would be great to have HSR from Jacksonville to destinations south, it won't be practical until there is linkage with HSR destinations from the northeast. That appears to be many years in the future.
Any Link to Jacksonville would be practical, as we are the "choke point" or natural hub of ALL railroad routes coming into Florida, and that includes Amtrak. If or when Amtrak blossoms into a true national carrier, with service to such diverse places as Nashville, Louisville, Chattanooga, Macon, Montgomery, Mobile, Pensacola, Biloxi, Asheville, etc... all of those lines will cross in Jacksonville. That isn't a bad feed for anybodys High Speed System.
In the distant someday that all of this is accomplished, JACKSONVILLE will be the ONLY American city with 3 distinct High Speed Rail systems, plus Amtrak, (or whatever becomes of Amtrak). OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: spuwho on January 30, 2010, 12:41:56 AM
Clearly HSR funding in Florida is tourism based as they attempt to connect the 3 tourism centers. (Tampa-Orlando-Miami)
they also happen to be the 3 largest metro areas in the state....the smallest, Orlando, is 75% larger than Jacksonville.
Well gentlemen............I hope they love the hell out of their Rat Rail! Does nothing what so ever for improving transit possibilities in Jacksonville or anywhere else in the State unless you believe in a standalone isolated rail system from nowhere to nowhere....but hay! Turista's will get the latest and greatest and I am just looking forward to subsidizing their ability to do so!
I'm glad you don't see the long-term value of investing in rail (of any type) in Florida and the potential change of perception regarding transit in Tallahassee and at FDOT. ;)
Ande here's the proof that it is changing what the folks in Tampa say about growth
http://www2.tbo.com/content/2010/jan/29/local-officials-look-how-high-speed-rail-can-pay/news-politics/
Quote from: tufsu1 on January 30, 2010, 03:02:03 PM
Quote from: spuwho on January 30, 2010, 12:41:56 AM
Clearly HSR funding in Florida is tourism based as they attempt to connect the 3 tourism centers. (Tampa-Orlando-Miami)
they also happen to be the 3 largest metro areas in the state....the smallest, Orlando, is 75% larger than Jacksonville.
Try 60% TUFSU, no point giving Rat Town more then they already have. OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: stephendare on January 31, 2010, 09:08:54 AM
Well on that note, why dont we invest in the long term of Bridges and shipping, by building a billion dollar draw bridge over Fishwier Creek! We could start it in avondale, and let it touch down in Murray Hill.
Hey Stephen, how about this:
"PORT FISHWEIR"OCKLAWAHA
Jax shouldn't even be in position to be upset about this line being rejected. Its not like the mayor's office or city council rallied around the project or even submitted resolutions of support for the project. Also, can't fault Tampa and Orlando for landing HSR money. This whole thing goes to show what can happen when you plan well in advance and rally being seeing your project's implemented.
On the flip side, we are getting money to build 9B. If we viewed these rail projects in the same light, perhaps we'll eventually get money for them as well.
Quote from: Ocklawaha on January 31, 2010, 10:37:32 AM
Quote from: tufsu1 on January 30, 2010, 03:02:03 PM
Quote from: spuwho on January 30, 2010, 12:41:56 AM
Clearly HSR funding in Florida is tourism based as they attempt to connect the 3 tourism centers. (Tampa-Orlando-Miami)
they also happen to be the 3 largest metro areas in the state....the smallest, Orlando, is 75% larger than Jacksonville.
Try 60% TUFSU, no point giving Rat Town more then they already have.
OCKLAWAHA
yeah...I'm bad at math...In 2007, metro Orlando had 2 million people...metro Jax. had 1.3 million.
It may be that rejection put it higher on the radar.
http://staugustine.com/news/local-news/2010-02-04/feds-no-money-jax-miami-rail
There's no doubt in my mind that this project won't get funding if it stays on the radar.
the staugustine.com lady is correct about the squeaky wheel getting the grease on this one. The problem being the Jax local government and Miami locals are not squeaking.
FDOT is still going after funding for this very important project.
http://jacksonville.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/stories/2010/02/08/story5.html?ana=e_ph
Quote from: tufsu1 on January 31, 2010, 05:23:44 PM
Quote from: Ocklawaha on January 31, 2010, 10:37:32 AM
Quote from: tufsu1 on January 30, 2010, 03:02:03 PM
Quote from: spuwho on January 30, 2010, 12:41:56 AM
Clearly HSR funding in Florida is tourism based as they attempt to connect the 3 tourism centers. (Tampa-Orlando-Miami)
they also happen to be the 3 largest metro areas in the state....the smallest, Orlando, is 75% larger than Jacksonville.
Try 60% TUFSU, no point giving Rat Town more then they already have.
OCKLAWAHA
yeah...I'm bad at math...In 2007, metro Orlando had 2 million people...metro Jax. had 1.3 million.
That makes it 54% larger, then. ;D
AMTRAK needs billions in new equipment. Any state requesting new or added services from AMTRAK better be ready to also purchase new equipment.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601110&sid=aYgGlNq9n32I
Gee if all it takes is buying new equipment...............if JEDC can fix Vesco/Rood up with a $5 Million Dollar Grant and two loans (low interest no less......one @1.4% & 2nd @ 1.5%) totaling $30 Million Dollars plus, we don't we hit them up for the same thing? With that kind of financial leverage we could possibly get enough to run on the FEC side of things and poop on Amtrak and CSX. There has to be a way to at this! We can't count on City Hall for much of anything other than sucking our tax money up and passing it on to someone in the GOB Network!
There is not enough money to fix everything on the Santa list. So I say, make a choice, fix downtown or fix your Jax-Miami rail system. To me, its silly to fix the prime right now, when downtown needs more help. Once downtown is thriving, it will attract more tax dollars and fed dollars to help pay for the prime.
If you don't fix downtown, you are not worthy of improving the prime and growing rail.
I like the Miami to Jax rail project but locally all we need to is have our local government say they support it. Allow Amtrak back downtown and this is a Fed and state project.
Quote from: mtraininjax on February 06, 2010, 10:29:16 AM
There is not enough money to fix everything on the Santa list. So I say, make a choice, fix downtown or fix your Jax-Miami rail system. To me, its silly to fix the prime right now, when downtown needs more help. Once downtown is thriving, it will attract more tax dollars and fed dollars to help pay for the prime.
If you don't fix downtown, you are not worthy of improving the prime and growing rail.
If the choice is mass transit or downtown, then I'd say screw downtown. If you can develop a reliable mass transit system that connects multiple neighborhoods (including downtown), then all will benefit (again, including downtown). On the other hand, no matter how much money you dump into downtown, if you can't successfully integrate it with the rest of the community, you're efforts will fail. Nevertheless, this isn't a downtown or Jax-Miami rail issue. DTs problems will have to be solved locally. The FEC project is something involving the State and Feds.
Well it would have helped emmensly if Johnny had started his downtown upgrade long before now! With 17 months to go, I don't see much being fully accomplished to completion other than another $23 Million Dollars out the door! I guess my next question should be........will local companies get to do the work or will we be importing again? That Court House misery offends me to no end and the prime contractor is still collecting our money and last that I heard..........$350 Million to build! How are we to pay for this one?
The courthouse itself is $224 million...and data shows that 2/3 of the woirkers are local.
Big fella.........do I need to remind you that the voters approved $190 Million for a new Courthouse! Last cost projections I saw said $350 Million...........I hope I am wrong! If 2/3's of the workers are local, that would mean the other 1/3 ain't from around here............hope they have their green cards!
CS...the voters approved a half-cent sales tax increase....the projects and costs were part of the backup material.
Yep............I remember bc I voted "YES" on that half-cent sales increase............but Court House was approved for $190 Million was it not?
Quote from: mtraininjax on February 06, 2010, 10:29:16 AM
There is not enough money to fix everything on the Santa list. So I say, make a choice, fix downtown or fix your Jax-Miami rail system. To me, its silly to fix the prime right now, when downtown needs more help. Once downtown is thriving, it will attract more tax dollars and fed dollars to help pay for the prime.
If you don't fix downtown, you are not worthy of improving the prime and growing rail.
What are you smoking Mtrain? Fixing downtown is a local issue, as is the Prime Osbourne Convention Closet, while Jax - Miami rail is both State and National. Even if we could fix one or the other financially, how do we call Amtrak and tell them, no sweat man, Jacksonville's got this one. LOL!
Downtown is OUR baby, but the best way to fix it is with new investment dollars from the private sector, which in turn bumps up the tax base making infrastructure improvements easier. The best way to get those new private dollars flowing into downtown is with fixed rail mass transit in general, and streetcars in particular. Add rail and the downtown with very little direction, will fix itself.
Our only input on the Jax-Miami rail route is probably going to be our station or stations. If we can get the Prime shut down long enough to create a vibrant Jacksonville Terminal once again, we'll be in fine shape. Letting JTA go off splattering buildings and towers all over LaVilla isn't going to solve anything and will create more problems then they solve, not to mention giving the city another black eye for our "could of", "would of," "should of," habits, half built and abandoned.
In the interm, the best action plan for Jacksonville is to delay the ("JRTC") Jacksonville Terminal project until we can work with the Prime Osborne's property. Build streetcars ASAP, with local commuter rail, as a development maker. Send letters of support and lobby Congress to get not just the FEC trains, but the Dixie Flyer, Royal Palm, City of Miami, Gulf Wind, Carolina Special, all back on track. OCKLAWAHA
Sure thing Ock.............but getting the current Administration to get off the pot will be hard but I am game!
Quote from: CS Foltz on February 06, 2010, 04:29:52 PM
Yep............I remember bc I voted "YES" on that half-cent sales increase............but Court House was approved for $190 Million was it not?
not really....there were estimates for all the projects, but you didn't vote on them
CS, what I think Tufsu is telling us is we were sucker punched with bait and switch. Never vote for something that doesn't have better checks and balances as we can't trust public officials to stick to the game plan. Lesson learned.
In fairness, proposing all those projects in such a short time was a bit over the top. I voted against the plan myself because, while I liked parts of it, I was concerned about what eventually happened: costs exceeding estimates and projects I favored taking a back seat to ones I was against.
It would have been better to have all the designs and bids in before submitting something to the voters but I suppose that was too impractical. The other option was to vote on smaller segments or even by project, but Delaney knew that bundling would get a lot more votes by promising a little something for everyone so that they would take the sum total to get their little piece of the action. And, it worked.
Quote from: thelakelander on February 05, 2010, 08:20:36 AM
There's no doubt in my mind that this project won't get funding if it stays on the radar.
I find this comment odd. But being a newcomber I am quite sure I have missed some of the predispositions others already know or assume. Would you please explain this comment to me lake?
Well...........I trusted Delaney about as much as I trust Johnny now............I did vote for the half cent sales tax increase and from what I remember the "Court House" was on the ballot and the price was $`190 Million Dollars! If they did use bait and switch............no matter how good it sounds or what its intentions are, I will be voting against it!
Quote from: NthDegree on February 08, 2010, 07:16:04 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on February 05, 2010, 08:20:36 AM
There's no doubt in my mind that this project won't get funding if it stays on the radar.
I find this comment odd. But being a newcomber I am quite sure I have missed some of the predispositions others already know or assume. Would you please explain this comment to me lake?
I should have said "will". There is actually an article in this week's Jax Biz Journal about them attempting to get funding through a different source.
Quote from: CS Foltz on February 08, 2010, 07:27:24 AM
Well...........I trusted Delaney about as much as I trust Johnny now............I did vote for the half cent sales tax increase and from what I remember the "Court House" was on the ballot and the price was $`190 Million Dollars! If they did use bait and switch............no matter how good it sounds or what its intentions are, I will be voting against it!
It wasn't bait and switch, it was INFLATION. Steel and Concrete prices soared in the years after the BJP was passed. Also, they moved the location from the current one to the new one. That cost a lot of money but it was worth it to get the courthouse off the river. That expense (of a new location) should have been included originally, that is my only complaint.
Thank you Lakelander. It makes much more sense now!
I cannot understate how high a priority this Miami-Jax rail corridor is to your neighbors to the south (and beyond).
Now would be a good time for Jacksonville to, pardon the pun, jump aboard.
Planning funds for rail in Georgia (including link to Jax.)
QuoteMacon Telegraph & News
The Federal Railroad Administration announced this week the recipients for the $8 billion that President Obama pledged for boosting high-speed rail. Georgia’s grant was so small it didn’t even make the list distributed with the news release.
Agency spokesman Rob Kulat stated the state applied for $472 million and received $750,000. The award will fund planning support for a line from Atlanta to Birmingham, Ala., and a line from Macon to Jacksonville, Fla.
Some of it will fund a feasibility study for a line from Chicago to Louisville, Ky., to Nashville, Tenn., to Atlanta.
http://www.macon.com/local/story/1004623.html
(http://www.americanrail.com/images/royalstreet/royalstreet/RSNightExt.jpg)
The Car? "The Royal Street", built for? "The Royal Palm" Cincinnati - Jacksonville DailyQuote from: tufsu1 on February 08, 2010, 12:55:08 PM
Planning funds for rail in Georgia (including link to Jax.)
QuoteMacon Telegraph & News
The Federal Railroad Administration announced this week the recipients for the $8 billion that President Obama pledged for boosting high-speed rail. Georgia’s grant was so small it didn’t even make the list distributed with the news release.
Agency spokesman Rob Kulat stated the state applied for $472 million and received $750,000. The award will fund planning support for a line from Atlanta to Birmingham, Ala., and a line from Macon to Jacksonville, Fla.
Some of it will fund a feasibility study for a line from Chicago to Louisville, Ky., to Nashville, Tenn., to Atlanta.
http://www.macon.com/local/story/1004623.htm
ROYAL PALM Anyone? If we use the CSX line to Louisville - Nashville - Atlanta - Jax, we will be dealing with a piece of freight track that is very busy with coal tonnage. That traffic tends to beat the crap out of the track itself, making for a rough and much slower ride. The Norfolk Southern from Cincinnati - Knoxville - Atlanta - Macon - VALDOSTA - JAX is a speedway for intermodal movements. Once the train pulls into Cincinnati, 3 easy sections or connections leave, one each for Chicago, Detroit, Cleveland.
Funny even GEORGIA get it that JACKSONVILLE is the natural junction "hub" of deep south railroading. To think they chose Jacksonville, when they could send that train right down the middle of I-75 straight into Disney Orlando!OCKLAWAHA
An East Coast line from Boston to Miami makes so darn much sense it hurts. It makes as much sense as the line down the coast of California does. Some very high percentage of the U.S. population lives along these two coasts and the money spent on upgrading I-95 would more than pay for it.
Keep in mind that there Amtrak already does serve Boston to Miami...it's just that it deviates from the coast itself after Jax. until you get to West Palm Beach.
The ghost of Ed Ball lives on in that deviation too!
What I meant and expressed poorly is that the whole route needs upgrading to "higher" speed rail with a view to an eventual upgrade to real high speed rail.
We need a better term than "higher speed rail". Faster rail? Plus rail? Zippy rail? Real passenger rail? (as opposed to Greyhound buses on steel).
Dog Walker...........I agree with your take on that situation! The whole FEC line south of Jacksonville needs to be upgraded to "Higher Speed" and more passing tracks but somehow I don't see that happening!
CS, FEC has one of the best maintained and upgraded rail systems in the country. I don't think it would take much to make it higher speed. Passenger rail was thrown off these tracks back in the '60's when the Federal government told Ed Ball that he was going to have to give in to the striking rail workers because the FEC line was carrying passengers in "interstate commerce". Ed Ball, being the kind of guy he was, simply closed FEC to passenger trains.
Ock could probably tell us what kind of upgrade FEC would need to run passenger trains 90MPH. Different signaling, I'm sure.
Much thanks for the information Dog Walker!! I was not really sure just what the track conditions were today, but if they are in that good of shape all I have to say is "Hot Spit"! If the entire length to Miami is up to those standards then we are not too far away from being able to establish Jacksonville to Miami more than twice aday! Signaling is one aspect, I am sure, but grades and some curves may need to be reworked for higher speed, communications is something else to consider along with the other upgrades and I agree! This is more Ock's area of expertise than mine...........I'm just guessing!
If I remember the earlier discussions properly (always an iffy proposition), the purpose of the grant request was to build a few stations (like in St. Augustine), upgrade the rail to 90mph (which wasn't much), and buy equipment.
This is also a potentially HUGE boon for St. Augustine. Tourists regularly fly into JIA and rent cars to visit St. Augustine. If the Amtrak line was implemented and a link to JIA and the St. Aug airport was built, tourists would have a much more pleasant time and be able to enjoy the trip virtually car free. Forthermore, with the 400th anniversary of St. Augustine comming up in 2015 it would be a massive plus for the area's tourism and help visitors experience mose of the first coast.
FYI...this is planned advertisement from FDOT to do the environmental studies needed to bring rail transit to the FEC line from West Palm to Miami.
QuoteDISTRICT 4
Major Work :
2.0 - Proj. Dev. & Environ. (PD&E) Studies
Contract : 11430
Financial Management Number(s):
41703132201
Project Description:
SOUTH FLORIDA EAST COAST CORRIDOR (SFECC) ENVIRONMENTAL
IMPACT STATEMENT
Estimated Contract Amt: $14,160,000
Planned Advertisement Date : 18MAY2010
Planned Shortlst Selection Date: 14JUN2010 Time: 8:30AM
Planned Final Sel. Meeting Date: 26JUL2010 Time: 8:30AM
Response Deadline : 28MAY2010
As you can see, these studies aren't as cheap or easy as some would like to think!
QuoteThis is also a potentially HUGE boon for St. Augustine. Tourists regularly fly into JIA and rent cars to visit St. Augustine. If the Amtrak line was implemented and a link to JIA and the St. Aug airport was built, tourists would have a much more pleasant time and be able to enjoy the trip virtually car free. Forthermore, with the 400th anniversary of St. Augustine comming up in 2015 it would be a massive plus for the area's tourism and help visitors experience mose of the first coast.
If "if's and but's" were candy and nuts, we would all have a Merry Christmas!
Too many If's. You're grasping, St. Augustine is fine the way it is, it does not need rail to define itself. Seems to have grown just fine without it.
Quote from: mtraininjax on February 10, 2010, 01:30:32 AM
St. Augustine is fine the way it is, it does not need rail to define itself. Seems to have grown just fine without it.
Considering that most of "modern" St. Augustine owes itself to Henry Flagler's railroad, that's a pretty funny comment, Mtrain! Oh .... the irony! :D
(http://lh4.ggpht.com/_bQsuhPJduqQ/S3JdrsX3RYI/AAAAAAAAB3U/forVGVtR2L8/s800/FEC446100TH.jpg)
New engine with old logo on it, can you read it? "SPEEDWAY TO AMERICA'S PLAYGROUND!"
Thanks guys. Charles has it pretty right! The FEC physical plant is excellent plus. The speeds now are 65 for freight without any effort... That means 75-79 for passenger TODAY!
The needs list, besides the obvious stations and rolling stock:
a few additional passing sidings, the longer the better for meets at track speed, rather then a hold-out meet with one train sitting "in the hole" while the other charges past.
Signaling is already state-of-the-art, in fact it is ahead of the art. FEC RY already has IN USE the new PTC system which interlocks train control and track control with in-cab, plus wayside signals. This is a system all railroads have been mandated to install, and their all looking at the FEC saying WTF? FUNNY! All that has to be done is change the speed settings, and in the case of crossing signals, change the timing to account for faster trains...
If it were me doing the project, I'd milk every nickle I could get out of the government to get their damn roads off my railroad track. This might be the single biggest stumbling block as the FEC is VERY URBAN for almost it's entire length. They only have about a zillion too many crossings at grade. Consolidate them, close many, over-pass on the busiest. This doesn't have to be complete to run the trains, but as speed increases, it would be the wise course.
Bottom line? Except for some hold-out meets, which would stretch the schedules, the FEC RY could probably start handling the 2 Amtrak trains each way daily, TOMORROW! Yeah, it is that easy but Florida always finds the most expensive things to do, then makes them a MUST HAVE, before they'll even start a good project. Hell's bells, get some platforms down and lets start those trains at 60-70 MPH, and work our way up from there.
With the AIR JTA bus connection from downtown to JIA, a train into Jacksonville Terminal could indeed package RAIL-AIR-AUTO deals for travelers.
OCKLAWAHA
QuoteIf it were me doing the project, I'd milk every nickle I could get out of the government to get their damn roads off my railroad track. This might be the single biggest stumbling block as the FEC is VERY URBAN for almost it's entire length. They only have about a zillion too many crossings at grade. Consolidate them, close many, over-pass on the busiest. This doesn't have to be complete to run the trains, but as speed increases, it would be the wise course.
Ock, I don't think FEC helped their case by allowing their own Flagler office park sub to put in an additional crossing at US1 south of St. Augustine Road. Do as I say, not as I do? Shouldn't we lead by example? ;)
stjr................your right! Classic example of exactly what you refer to "Do as I say, not as I do"! Or maybe they know something that we don't..............like not in my life time buddy!
Quote from: mtraininjax on February 10, 2010, 01:30:32 AM
QuoteThis is also a potentially HUGE boon for St. Augustine. Tourists regularly fly into JIA and rent cars to visit St. Augustine. If the Amtrak line was implemented and a link to JIA and the St. Aug airport was built, tourists would have a much more pleasant time and be able to enjoy the trip virtually car free. Forthermore, with the 400th anniversary of St. Augustine comming up in 2015 it would be a massive plus for the area's tourism and help visitors experience mose of the first coast.
If "if's and but's" were candy and nuts, we would all have a Merry Christmas!
Too many If's. You're grasping, St. Augustine is fine the way it is, it does not need rail to define itself. Seems to have grown just fine without it.
Here is your one constant sentiment in your posts. It is fine so we should sit on our hands. Well just like you are happy with your BMW so we should ignore transit, I am happy with my son's private school so we should ignore education. I know you care about that issue so I am hoping that statement will turn the light on for you about how sad the it is fine way of living is.
All aboard down here in St. Augustine. We're pretty much a bunch of rail-huggers. What about you guys up in Jax, want to get onboard?
http://staugustine.com/opinions/2010-02-07/passenger-rail-sputtering-pipe-dream
Dude.............been trying to get a train started here in Jax for several years now............still standing with our thumbs out!
Quote from: JeffreyS on February 10, 2010, 09:25:16 AM
Quote from: mtraininjax on February 10, 2010, 01:30:32 AM
QuoteThis is also a potentially HUGE boon for St. Augustine. Tourists regularly fly into JIA and rent cars to visit St. Augustine. If the Amtrak line was implemented and a link to JIA and the St. Aug airport was built, tourists would have a much more pleasant time and be able to enjoy the trip virtually car free. Forthermore, with the 400th anniversary of St. Augustine comming up in 2015 it would be a massive plus for the area's tourism and help visitors experience mose of the first coast.
If "if's and but's" were candy and nuts, we would all have a Merry Christmas!
Too many If's. You're grasping, St. Augustine is fine the way it is, it does not need rail to define itself. Seems to have grown just fine without it.
Here is your one constant sentiment in your posts. It is fine so we should sit on our hands. Well just like you are happy with your BMW so we should ignore transit, I am happy with my son's private school so we should ignore education. I know you care about that issue so I am hoping that statement will turn the light on for you about how sad the it is fine way of living is.
St. Augustine does need rail. Just as rail is EXACTLY what defined St. Augustine as an international destination. Without Flagler and the FEC rail line, St. Aug would likely be dressed up version of modern LaVilla. All of the best architecture (save the fort) is the result of Flagler and his mega resorts tied to the rail line. Why would it be silly to want some of that back? What is wrong with transit oriented growth in a historic city built around transit?
Bring the rail back and watch St. Augustine blossom.
Quote from: stjr on February 10, 2010, 02:25:06 AM
QuoteIf it were me doing the project, I'd milk every nickle I could get out of the government to get their damn roads off my railroad track. This might be the single biggest stumbling block as the FEC is VERY URBAN for almost it's entire length. They only have about a zillion too many crossings at grade. Consolidate them, close many, over-pass on the busiest. This doesn't have to be complete to run the trains, but as speed increases, it would be the wise course.
Ock, I don't think FEC helped their case by allowing their own Flagler office park sub to put in an additional crossing at US1 south of St. Augustine Road. Do as I say, not as I do? Shouldn't we lead by example? ;)
It isn't a 100% rail carrier decision, when a developer builds a new space, the plans on how to tap into the local transportation network are/or can be City, County, State, USDOT, and FRA approved. Of course in this case the carrier owns the development company, but it won't change the rules on tapping US-1. Overall, the railroad/s are working to kill as many crossings as possible, or to equip every crossing with a full 4-quadrant crossing arm and signal application.
Here in town the railroad sought and got permission to close the Landon Avenue crossing on the Southbank. This was where the original South Jacksonville railroad depot sat NE of the crossing. With passenger trains long gone (having quit South Jacksonville about 1963, long before the rest of the route) there was no justification to maintain two points of potential contact between automobiles and railroad in this area. As a result, the money awarded for closing crossings (Federal) was used to better Atlantic Avenue and the Florida East Coast crossing. Kind of interesting as THIS is where the next SOUTH JACKSONVILLE station should be. OCKLAWAHA
See the Miami Herald *- Carl Hiaasen's very negative outlook in his current editorial piece
"Fast Trains Are Cool.........But Very Expensive"
*(Perhaps a MJ participant more computer astute than I can paste Carl's writings)
Still more boarding the train:
http://staugustine.com/news/local-news/2010-02-12/gov-crist-announces-his-support-jax-miami-line
Somebody needs to start a new thread titled "Miami-Jax rail NOT rejected"