The car wash petition is just another in a line of misleading petitions (remember the rooming house petition?)
Point is, there are approximately 100 people in this neighborhood who may have been given false information on a business which will be opening in Springfield and effectively hurting this car wash before it is even open. Damaging its reputation.
From Porch Cats:QuoteQuoteThe signatures on the petition have no correlation to SPAR membership. I had a neighbor (an active supporter and member of SPAR) stop by my house with said petition one evening this past week, asking me to sign. He was going door to door, not necessarily seeking out SPAR members (as I am not.) At the beginning of the conversation I was told we needed to sign the petition to stop yet another convenience store coming into the neighborhood. I thought that clearly misleading - I already knew the exception was for the car wash, not the convenience store - and made that clear. So - I question how many people who signed that petition actually knew what they were signing for. And clearly, signatures weren't limited to SPAR members.
Petitions are public record. Easily obtained from COJ. Perhaps we ought to contact all persons who have signed this petition and give them the correct info on the car wash?
sheclown that is a great idea..............get a copy, only need one, cost would be minimal and cross reference to see just how many SPAR members actually signed! They could have stood on a street corner and just accosted people that were passing by.............not being very upfront with information or accuracy!
thankfully, it doesn't really matter...the opposition lost. However, it would show a more realistic view as to whom they got to sign it, whether it was under misleading information or not...
Ok.
For the final time.
I've stated this 3 seperate times now.
The latest being a few days ago.
I have a copy of the "misleading" petition in my email.
If anyone would like to see it, PM me.
You can clearly see that it was mistakenly misused (it was from a former meeting) and that is doesn't exactly have to do with the issue that was at hand that evening at all.
Curiously, noone has PMed about seeing it.
So, do Strider, Stephen, & Sheclown have a qouto of negative propaganda threads they have to start each month or what?
Seriously.
I mean, I know that it's CS Foltz & Chrisufwgator's role to jump in and agree with everything blindly, but they don't start the threads though.
Well, I signed one of them based upon opposition by some friends of mine. No, I wasn't deceived into thinking it was anything but a petition against the car wash re-opening, and no it wasn't the one from the SPAR meeting that we thought was a sign-in sheet (me included) and wasn't used. It was an earlier one I signed at a different meeting and it was clearly stated that's what I was signing. No deception.
I later changed my mind sort of, but still wish it wasn't located on one of a couple remaining brick streets, and still wish the ingress and egress was from Main Street. However, I didn't think to remove my name from the petition, or even know if I could have. Point is, some of the people who signed their names may have re-thought their opposition.
SPAR. Busted. Again.
FSU813, just post the petition then. Or PM it to me and I will. You can blank out the names if you do not have a blank version; in fact, I suggest it, as even though this petition is now public record, the names do not matter to this discussion.
Personally, I am more concerned of how the interpretation of the code was explained as it has been said many times by it's detractors that the overlay prevented the opening of intensive automotive uses and therefore the car wash was not allowed. Not a correct explanation. The overlay does not prevent the opening of a car wash.
This is the type of thing that concerns me. It is the same type of issue that has been brought forward against SPAR Council in the past and one that should not occur again. Even if ten of the names on the list were given misleading information, it should be corrected and the member who did it be prevented from doing it again.
From personal experience, it is the spreading of propaganda and misinformation on the part of SPAR Council that causes the biggest problems in this community and causes the riffs between the various groups. Misuse of petitions is simply one of the way this occurs.
Or, maybe it was thought we'd be smart enough to look at what we were signing. I didn't even look at it...just assumed it was a sign in sheet. I think that makes me the one that looks silly.
When someone says "Please remember to sign in" at a meeting, and the "sign-in sheet" is arranged so that the metal hasp on the clipboard is obscuring the part of the paper that indicates that it's actually a petition not a sign-in sheet, then I don't think that makes anyone look dumb, except the people who got caught trying to pull a fast one.
I was thinking more along the lines of the car wash petition, what was said to entice people to sign it. Problem being that the car wash will open and a group of neighbors have been given the wrong impression. It may damage the chances of the car wash being successful.
Or it just might show your neighborhood just how incorrect that SPAR's viewpoint seems to be! Encouraging business that would bring people into that part of the world is a must! Look of whatever business takes up residence there should be SPAR's primary concern..........not "Oh no another convience store" ....we can't have this! Neighborhood participation is a must for any organization, not a small group(of how many people?) having the final say!
Quote
I was thinking more along the lines of the car wash petition, what was said to entice people to sign it. Problem being that the car wash will open and a group of neighbors have been given the wrong impression. It may damage the chances of the car wash being successful.
unquote
This was not a SPAR petition, It was done by a very honorable person. Please stop boxing shadows and by all means go check the petition.
As for the opposition losing, if they lost they were the most graceful = congratulating Jones. In fact I think it was a win win. The conditions imposed aid us all. The cars may not turn into the residential area so it is almost on and off Main. Without the conditions, the car wash could have opened the next day as is but, now the landscaping and all the promised changes have to happen before one car may be washed. The exception may not be passed on, it is for Jones only. The store may sell only car related products. Hours only in daylight 8-6. Please do not try to set up the signers as the probable cause of the business failing especially on rented land with a somewhat short lease but, I do see that coming, since I feel there are not enough cars to wash in Springfield for that huge investment. I looked at the support petition on facebook and could not tell what subject was of the petition.
Please its over let it go and stop witch hunting, and wash your cars every day.
I wish Mr. Jones the best. With that said, when he spoke at a SAMBA meeting in November, he mentioned the market he was after was much larger then Springfield.
me too.
I do not follow blindly at all fsu813! I am a leader, I do not follow............now strider has said you can go two ways......either post the E Mail in question or PM the thing to him! You take your pick but either way, cough up or shut up! Tyranny should be opposed no matter where it exists!
There were apparently several petitions but the only one that was taken to the hearing was mine. I had a copy of the zoning report and the letter from the chairman of the HPC staff attached for all to see. I informed people that there were petitions pro and con and that there were residents and non residents both for and against. I collected signatures over two days randomly by who I could find at home. I had a few people tell me they didn't care either way and I had a few people say they didn't mind a car wash and those folks didn't sign. You people trying to make something out of this are truly ridiculous. I went in person and everyone I talked to was able to look at the petition and see who had signed including phone numbers and email addresses which is more than I can say about the pro petition. I went to the site to see who was supporting the car wash and it didn't allow access to see who had signed that petition. This from people who are always screaming transparency. People will make up their own minds whether they will patronize the car wash once it is up and running. The person Porch cats referenced collected a total of 13 signatures (two of which were this person and their spouse) which I attached to my 92.
Quote from: thelakelander on January 17, 2010, 05:24:41 PM
I wish Mr. Jones the best. With that said, when he spoke at a SAMBA meeting in November, he mentioned the market he was after was much larger then Springfield.
Honestly, any business hoping to survive on Springfield residents alone is destined for failure. Someone keeps throwing the number of 5000 people in the neighborhood out there. That number is based off the 2000 census. I would be shocked if we have more than 3500. Its probably more in the neighborhood of 2500 residents.
Over the holidays between following santa around on the firetruck, and partaking in some caroling, it was a stark reminder of how empty our community is. There are places where there is density, but all in all, we have a bunch of broken teeth.
Quote from: Springfield Girl on January 17, 2010, 07:55:45 PM
There were apparently several petitions but the only one that was taken to the hearing was mine. I had a copy of the zoning report and the letter from the chairman of the HPC staff attached for all to see. I informed people that there were petitions pro and con and that there were residents and non residents both for and against. I collected signatures over two days randomly by who I could find at home. I had a few people tell me they didn't care either way and I had a few people say they didn't mind a car wash and those folks didn't sign. You people trying to make something out of this are truly ridiculous. I went in person and everyone I talked to was able to look at the petition and see who had signed including phone numbers and email addresses which is more than I can say about the pro petition. I went to the site to see who was supporting the car wash and it didn't allow access to see who had signed that petition. This from people who are always screaming transparency. People will make up their own minds whether they will patronize the car wash once it is up and running.
In fairness SG, I believe the person who created the petition left it blind to protect the identity of those who signed it. Those of us who supported Silas got a number of phone calls.... telling us how wrong we were. It was probably a good thing to leave it blind.
Quote from: Dan B on January 17, 2010, 07:55:59 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on January 17, 2010, 05:24:41 PM
I wish Mr. Jones the best. With that said, when he spoke at a SAMBA meeting in November, he mentioned the market he was after was much larger then Springfield.
Honestly, any business hoping to survive on Springfield residents alone is destined for failure. Someone keeps throwing the number of 5000 people in the neighborhood out there. That number is based off the 2000 census. I would be shocked if we have more than 3500. Its probably more in the neighborhood of 2500 residents.
Over the holidays between following santa around on the firetruck, and partaking in some caroling, it was a stark reminder of how empty our community is. There are places where there is density, but all in all, we have a bunch of broken teeth.
agreed.
Quote from: Dan B on January 17, 2010, 07:59:01 PM
Quote from: Springfield Girl on January 17, 2010, 07:55:45 PM
There were apparently several petitions but the only one that was taken to the hearing was mine. I had a copy of the zoning report and the letter from the chairman of the HPC staff attached for all to see. I informed people that there were petitions pro and con and that there were residents and non residents both for and against. I collected signatures over two days randomly by who I could find at home. I had a few people tell me they didn't care either way and I had a few people say they didn't mind a car wash and those folks didn't sign. You people trying to make something out of this are truly ridiculous. I went in person and everyone I talked to was able to look at the petition and see who had signed including phone numbers and email addresses which is more than I can say about the pro petition. I went to the site to see who was supporting the car wash and it didn't allow access to see who had signed that petition. This from people who are always screaming transparency. People will make up their own minds whether they will patronize the car wash once it is up and running.
In fairness SG, I believe the person who created the petition left it blind to protect the identity of those who signed it. Those of us who supported Silas got a number of phone calls.... telling us how wrong we were. It was probably a good thing to leave it blind.
Believe me, I got flack also for not thinking a carwash was a great addition to the historic district. I still put it out there and stood by my opinion.
Since my post started this discussion, let me make a couple of fine points:
- I never said I read the petition. I said "At the beginning of the conversation I was told we needed to sign the petition to stop yet another convenience store coming into the neighborhood. I thought that clearly misleading." So I can't say whether or not the petition itself was misleading.
- Springfield Girl, who took 92 of the signatures, was NOT who stopped by our house. I wish it had been SG. I respect her very much and we occasionally have open conversations about hot topics like the car wash. Those conversations are enjoyable, good-natured and always about trying to find facts amongst all the noise.
- We did not sign the petition (I have always been in favor of letting Mr Jones open the car wash.)
I believe we all got a little flack, regardless of our positions. I've received a couple of upset phone calls myself. Nevertheless, I still feel I did the right thing with my participation and would do it again with no problem.
Quote from: PorchCats on January 17, 2010, 08:33:12 PM
Since my post started this discussion, let me make a couple of fine points:
- I never said I read the petition. I said "At the beginning of the conversation I was told we needed to sign the petition to stop yet another convenience store coming into the neighborhood. I thought that clearly misleading." So I can't say whether or not the petition itself was misleading.
- Springfield Girl, who took 92 of the signatures, was NOT who stopped by our house. I wish it had been SG. I respect her very much and we occasionally have open conversations about hot topics like the car wash. Those conversations are enjoyable, good-natured and always about trying to find facts amongst all the noise.
- We did not sign the petition (I have always been in favor of letting Mr Jones open the car wash.)
...and I forgot to add the most important part - no one should ever blindly sign anything handed to them without reading it first. That's just not smart.
PorchCats..........make perfect prudent sense to me.............no one should sign squat unless they read it first!
Quote from: Dan B on January 17, 2010, 07:55:59 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on January 17, 2010, 05:24:41 PM
I wish Mr. Jones the best. With that said, when he spoke at a SAMBA meeting in November, he mentioned the market he was after was much larger then Springfield.
Honestly, any business hoping to survive on Springfield residents alone is destined for failure. Someone keeps throwing the number of 5000 people in the neighborhood out there. That number is based off the 2000 census. I would be shocked if we have more than 3500. Its probably more in the neighborhood of 2500 residents.
Just looked up the 2000 census numbers for the neighborhood. It had a population of 4,798 (census tracts 11 & 12). I believe, during its heyday the population was over 8,000. No wonder the commercial corridors are what they are today. Anyway, there has been a lot of redevelopment and new infill since then. Let's hope that it hasn't fallen below 4,000. If its dropped to something like 2,500, its losing population faster than places like Detroit.
Quote from: chris farley on January 17, 2010, 05:15:31 PM...and wash your cars every day.
Ms. Farley, you gave me a chuckle tonight.
True, though. I do plan to frequent the car wash as long as it does a decent job getting the dirt off... maybe not every day... but... definitely more often than I wash the cars today!
2500 people huh? SPAR can only get 100 signatures so I guess they truly represent the whole of Springfield right? If its 4000 people that shows even worse............so maybe SPAR is ready to return to the ashes inorder to be reborn..........again?
Quote from: thelakelander on January 17, 2010, 08:58:37 PM
Quote from: Dan B on January 17, 2010, 07:55:59 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on January 17, 2010, 05:24:41 PM
I wish Mr. Jones the best. With that said, when he spoke at a SAMBA meeting in November, he mentioned the market he was after was much larger then Springfield.
Honestly, any business hoping to survive on Springfield residents alone is destined for failure. Someone keeps throwing the number of 5000 people in the neighborhood out there. That number is based off the 2000 census. I would be shocked if we have more than 3500. Its probably more in the neighborhood of 2500 residents.
Just looked up the 2000 census numbers for the neighborhood. It had a population of 4,798 (census tracts 11 & 12). I believe, during its heyday the population was over 8,000. No wonder the commercial corridors are what they are today. Anyway, there has been a lot of redevelopment and new infill since then. Let's hope that it hasn't fallen below 4,000. If its dropped to something like 2,500, its losing population faster than places like Detroit.
That number is a complete guestimate.
But, if you think about the changes its not hard to do the math on a block for block basis. For instance in 2000 the house next door to me on one side was 6 efficiency apartments. It is now empty. The house on the otherside was a duplex. Its not a single family. There are 5 houses right behind me, all but one of which were chopped up and being used as multi-family, are now all single family, and frankly, were mostly empty until about 6 months ago.
The make up the community has changed both in racial make up, as well as density. Again, looking at my block, it is one of the more densely populated, with every house but one being lived in. At one point most were chopped up into duplexes, tri-plexes, and quads. Now, all but one are single family.
I may very well be wrong, but I am guessing we are closer to 2500, than 5000.
Quote from: CS Foltz on January 17, 2010, 09:07:18 PM
2500 people huh? SPAR can only get 100 signatures so I guess they truly represent the whole of Springfield right? If its 4000 people that shows even worse............so maybe SPAR is ready to return to the ashes inorder to be reborn..........again?
Yawn. Seriously.
It must be really boring in Linkside. I just read the 5 page thread regarding an appeal to LUZ to tear down a bungalow in Riverside and CSFoltz has weighed in on the neighborhood and RAP on that thread.
I found it very interesting as they are carrying on the same arguments for and against RAP that we see here regarding SPAR. I would suggest anyone following the SPAR as savior/devil crap read some of it. It is the classic org saves neighborhood/org oversteps their boundaries and gets in peoples business debate. Goes to show you can't please everyone.
Talk about hostility, this Christmas has been my worst ever, as well as getting flu, I got insulted, shunned, my flowers got called names through the forum, but worst of all I didn't get to see Santa, but mind you I hear his sleigh was freshly washed, and what do you think SPAR did it!
Stephen you exaggerate, I only know of one person who mentioned it once, and my post was poking fun at myself as much as anyone and I loved the clean sleigh bit.
Nice to hear from you Porch Cats, glad you got to chuckle
I received this, per request, and here's the petition that FSU813 sent. It's blank except for what's typed at the top, and is a 'blanket' type of petition:
QuotePetition
The “Special Use†housing in Springfield has become a very real factor impacting residents in the following manner:
Quality of Life
Decrease in property value for all Springfield property.
I am in favor of the total enforcement of current zoning codes and laws that restrict illegal uses of property encompassed in the “2000 Springfield Zoning Overlay.â€
edit: typo corrected
Quote from: Dan B on January 17, 2010, 07:59:01 PM
Those of us who supported Silas got a number of phone calls.... telling us how wrong we were. It was probably a good thing to leave it blind.
SPAR. Busted. AGAIN.
2X in the same thread now.
So I guess it's just not enough for SPAR to submit its own counter-petition to Silas Jones' petition, as is their right. No, they (as always) had to take it a step further, and start calling Mr. Jones' supporters in an attempt to pressure them into withdrawing their support.
And FWIW, I believe this was actually the
exact logic behind not making the names on the pro-carwash petition public. It's sad to see that fear was well-founded, and indeed came true. I guess "
Hope for the best, but always expect and plan for the worst..." is now officially the only way to deal with SPAR.
This is really some dirty pool...
Springfield Girl...............you are correct, I got nothing better to do than irritate & agitate since it is so quiet at Link Side (by the way that is two words not one!) Mr Lamb had removed a garage without permission from RAP & had gutted a period Historic Bungalow preparatory to razing the house why? Because the cost of bulldozing was around $5K and that was cheaper than putting a new roof on the house! He did not want to spend anymore money on the house. I agree with RAP's decision in this matter to put that on hold............more than likely the house will have to be demolished since it is steadily going down the hill, but RAP is doing their job according to their mandate & bylaws unlike SPAR! They have open elections, their board does not have an agenda that is hidden, their dealings with their world is open and transparent............now can you say the same for SPAR? Somehow I don't think so! Mr Lambs attorney is Paul Harden...........do I need to say more?
Quote from: Springfield Girl on January 17, 2010, 10:42:12 PM
It must be really boring in Linkside. I just read the 5 page thread regarding an appeal to LUZ to tear down a bungalow in Riverside and CSFoltz has weighed in on the neighborhood and RAP on that thread.
I found it very interesting as they are carrying on the same arguments for and against RAP that we see here regarding SPAR. I would suggest anyone following the SPAR as savior/devil crap read some of it. It is the classic org saves neighborhood/org oversteps their boundaries and gets in peoples business debate. Goes to show you can't please everyone.
That's an oversimplification.
RAP is getting flak for getting up in Bronson Lamb's business when he tried to knock down a period bungalow. In other words, they are performing their stated mission of protecting historic structures, and doing it well since they put a halt to the demo. Some people (Lamb and his buds) naturally don't like it, and hence, the debate. That's an honest debate, unlike this one. If you don't think RAP should meddle with private property, then don't become a RAP member. If you appreciate their preservation efforts, then by all means, support the membership. But the important thing is that you can make a choice on face value, because the parties involved have integrity.
But here, we have the opposite going on. The problem here is that what you see isn't what you get. SPAR has been busted red-handed, running around behind the scenes interfering with new businesses trying to come into the neighborhood, and complaining to COJ that it actually takes too long to demolish the historic housing stock that they are supposed to be protecting. And to add insult to injury, a nice chunk of what was slated for demolition probably got there in the first place because of SPAR's pre-orchestrated mass code-enforcement call-in campaigns. Meanwhile, SPAR is receiving huge checks from the very same Developer who has been snapping up a steady stream of these now-vacant lots. It absolutely reeks.
Tell me you honestly don't see the difference? RAP is just doing what's it's supposed to do, doing it honestly, and you can take them at face value even if you don't like their position. SPAR is doing the opposite, and dishonestly holding itself out to the public as a historic preservation group, while working behind closed doors to speed up the demolition of the historic houses they claim to be protecting. They use dirty tactics to oppose new businesses trying to enter the neighborhood, or at least those that don't properly suck up to the Executive Director. And not to mention this thread marks the second allegation of petition fraud against SPAR in as many months. Then there are the bogus assault allegations and trespass warnings, made in an attempt to ban people from public meetings who disagreed with the Executive Director's position.
This just isn't even remotely comparable to the RAP vs. Bronson Lamb situation, because at its core the problems with SPAR revolve around; 1: Dishonesty, 2: SPAR's abrogation of its preservation mandate and its backroom attempts to speed up the destruction of what they're supposed to be protecting, 3: SPAR's continual engagement in questionable and shady tactics to accomplish the goals of, not the neighborhood, but of a small group of 10 or 12 people, and 4: Current SPAR leadership's conversion of a nonprofit community org into a dictatorship, by refusing to follow its by-laws, refusing to stand for election as required, and fighting its own membership.
As a supporter of RAP's position with Mr. Lamb, I'm actually insulted by the comparison.
Quote from: Springfielder on January 18, 2010, 05:02:29 AM
I received this, per request, and here's the petition that FSU813 sent. It's blank except for what's typed at the top, and is a 'blank' type of petition:
QuotePetition
The “Special Use†housing in Springfield has become a very real factor impacting residents in the following manner:
Quality of Life
Decrease in property value for all Springfield property.
I am in favor of the total enforcement of current zoning codes and laws that restrict illegal uses of property encompassed in the “2000 Springfield Zoning Overlay.â€
Just so I understand, this is the petition circulated to fight against the car wash? Or is it just another petition circulated by SPAR Council that FSU813 felt like sending in place of the one circulated for the car wash? As a petition against "special Uses", it is fraudulent. As a petition against the car wash, it would be considered criminal.
strider.......what I find disturbing is the phrase " I am in favor of TOTAL eforcement of the current zoning Codes" which does not leave any room for discussion or exceptions! Paul Harden is not involved with SPAR is he?
"Just so I understand, this is the petition circulated to fight against the car wash? Or is it just another petition circulated by SPAR Council that FSU813 felt like sending in place of the one circulated for the car wash? As a petition against "special Uses", it is fraudulent. As a petition against the car wash, it would be considered criminal."
- as stated before, it's the "misleading" petition from the neighborhood meeting held some months ago.
As you can see:
1) it's clearly marked at the top as "petition", not a sign-in sheet
2) it uses casual language & format so it wasn't meant for any kind of official submission
3) it talks about "enforcing current zoning codes" and the 2000 overlay, so unless you don't support the current zoning or 2000 overlay there's really nothing to disagree with
4) it doesn't mention anything about changing the zoning or overlay to go after Strider & Sheclown's unofficial rehab houses, which is what some people thought the intention was.
Hopefully this puts to rest that is was "misleading" at all. Though i'm sure a creative mind could conjure something up.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on January 18, 2010, 05:59:19 AM
Quote from: Dan B on January 17, 2010, 07:59:01 PM
Those of us who supported Silas got a number of phone calls.... telling us how wrong we were. It was probably a good thing to leave it blind.
SPAR. Busted. AGAIN.
2X in the same thread now.
So I guess it's just not enough for SPAR to submit its own counter-petition to Silas Jones' petition, as is their right. No, they (as always) had to take it a step further, and start calling Mr. Jones' supporters in an attempt to pressure them into withdrawing their support.
And FWIW, I believe this was actually the exact logic behind not making the names on the pro-carwash petition public. It's sad to see that fear was well-founded, and indeed came true. I guess "Hope for the best, but always expect and plan for the worst..." is now officially the only way to deal with SPAR.
This is really some dirty pool...
Dan did not mention WHO called. Maybe it was SPAR, maybe not. As someone who supported the car wash, I received zero communications telling me how wrong I was so that statement in itself is inaccurate.
Quote from: fsu813 on January 18, 2010, 10:41:22 AM
1) it's clearly marked at the top as "petition", not a sign-in sheet
Problem is, people who were at that meeting have confirmed that this petition was placed so the metal hasp of the clipboard covered up the language that identified it as a petition. Then SPAR asked all attendees to "please make sure to sign in." Nobody in attendance recalled there being any other separate "sign in" sheet, there was only this one.
So we're back to square-1 here. The piece of paper sure could have said "Petition" on it, and I don't think anybody has argued that one way or the other. That's not the point. The problem was that the part of the paper identifying it as a petition was concealed by the metal hasp on the clipboard, and then SPAR asked everyone to "sign in," while passing around this piece of paper with the petition language covered up.
Quote from: nvrenuf on January 18, 2010, 11:45:20 AM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on January 18, 2010, 05:59:19 AM
Quote from: Dan B on January 17, 2010, 07:59:01 PM
Those of us who supported Silas got a number of phone calls.... telling us how wrong we were. It was probably a good thing to leave it blind.
SPAR. Busted. AGAIN.
2X in the same thread now.
So I guess it's just not enough for SPAR to submit its own counter-petition to Silas Jones' petition, as is their right. No, they (as always) had to take it a step further, and start calling Mr. Jones' supporters in an attempt to pressure them into withdrawing their support.
And FWIW, I believe this was actually the exact logic behind not making the names on the pro-carwash petition public. It's sad to see that fear was well-founded, and indeed came true. I guess "Hope for the best, but always expect and plan for the worst..." is now officially the only way to deal with SPAR.
This is really some dirty pool...
I received zero communications telling me how wrong I was so that statement in itself is inaccurate.
Maybe they didn't get around to you, nvrenuf, but it appears they certainly made an effort to pressure others, as has been reported here directly from the horse's mouth.
I see no reason Dan B would lie, he is a SPAR member and knows a lot of people in that group. He has argued with me tooth and nail on here before, over SPAR issues. I think he's the last person who'd just make something up if it didn't really happen, especially on these issues.
So no, I don't think that statement is inaccurate at all.
Here goes
To paraphrase the great Bard, Methinks they do protest too much" What is this? You said you won, the "losers" have gracefully accepted it. Are you telling me there was no campaign or postings by the pro side? It was humongous and somewhat spiteful. Let it go, or do you think you didn't win enough or the losers have not shown enough pain? The names mentioned within the Jones letter were not SPAR members, but no one will admit that and they were not coerced.
On the issue of houses how many have been shut down?
FSU and Springfield Girl I should not be posting, I think is is better not to and let the chatter be amongst themselves.
OK I saw the petition, I read what it was for and it was explained to me what it was for. There was nothing hidden or underhanded about it. BTW I am not a SPAR member nor am I a member of any other group. Im just a homeowner that wants Springfield to improve. Nuf said.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on January 18, 2010, 12:04:33 PM
I see no reason Dan B would lie, he is a SPAR member and knows a lot of people in that group. He has argued with me tooth and nail on here before, over SPAR issues. I think he's the last person who'd just make something up if it didn't really happen, especially on these issues.
So no, I don't think that statement is inaccurate at all.
I didn't say that Dan lied. He is a personal friend and I would never presume such a thing. What I am saying is that assumptions are being made that it was the SPAR office who called. When did he say that it was SPAR? If it was SPAR so be it, but can we at least make sure that is what he said before submitting it as a fact?
Facts, just use facts. That's all I'm asking.
And Dan, are you still a SPAR member? Didn't realize you had renewed.
Nobody called me about it either...and I'm in agreement, I don't believe that Dan would lie about being called about his stance on the car wash issue.
Quote from: nvrenuf on January 18, 2010, 01:21:33 PM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on January 18, 2010, 12:04:33 PM
I see no reason Dan B would lie, he is a SPAR member and knows a lot of people in that group. He has argued with me tooth and nail on here before, over SPAR issues. I think he's the last person who'd just make something up if it didn't really happen, especially on these issues.
So no, I don't think that statement is inaccurate at all.
I didn't say that Dan lied. He is a personal friend and I would never presume such a thing. What I am saying is that assumptions are being made that it was the SPAR office who called. When did he say that it was SPAR? If it was SPAR so be it, but can we at least make sure that is what he said before submitting it as a fact?
Facts, just use facts. That's all I'm asking.
And Dan, are you still a SPAR member? Didn't realize you had renewed.
I am not. I have not renewed since I left the board in 2008. I am still friends... or at least, friendly, with many of the board members, but I have not been a member since the Summer of 2008.
And no, I did not receive pressure from "SPAR", as much as people who thought I was wrong on the issue. I wont presume to know whom they are affiliated with.
I will admit a fairly heated debate with Louise on a number of issues, this one included, but I called her, not she I.
Dan B...........I have to ask this and hope you will not take offence but I would like to know if your comfortable with answering...........why did you not renew your membership in SPAR?
Quote from: CS Foltz on January 18, 2010, 03:10:49 PM
Dan B...........I have to ask this and hope you will not take offence but I would like to know if your comfortable with answering...........why did you not renew your membership in SPAR?
Initially it was an economic/health decision. This all occurred about the time my dad was diagnosed with cancer and my mom had a stroke in the Winter/Spring of 2008, subsequently, I had to spend a month in Maine with my mom. This was the biggest reason why I stepped down from the board.
I also was disillusioned with how the "executive committee" handled the rooming house issue. I was of the opinion that they agreed to the compromise without getting a vote from the board (At a minimum) or the membership (Ideally). Personally, I came to support the so-called "compromise", but I did not feel it was their decision to make without the rest of the board. Also, I was the person who nominated Alex S to the board, so how that played out pissed me off, and lastly, the games that were played with the SPAR forums pissed me off. It was an issue at every single meeting for the almost three years I was on the board, and I just got sick of defending it to people who by-and-large, wouldn't post on it either way.
The latter issues alone would not have made me step down, but with my parents illnesses, I simply didnt have the energy to deal with the drama.
This was also about the time StephenDare! decided I was the bane of all evil, and spent the better part of the year trying to paint me as an evil, business ruining, lying, asshole.
All in all, 2008 was not a great year for me personally, and as a logical result SPAR become unimportant in the grander scheme of things.
I have not renewed since because I am not a fan of how many things have been handled.
Dan B ..........much thanks for an honest answer! I can relate to parental health issues which with me would take precedence over just about everything also............a matter of prioritizing which is most important to anyone with family so I can understand! Hopefully things worked out for your parents but as to SPAR, that maybe a lost cause............undecided at this point! Time may prove just how things will eventually work out!
FSU813, somehow, as this thread opened with the car wash issue and the fact that someone said that it was presented to them improperly, I thought you were offering that petition, not the one discussed at length. I think you sort of misunderstood which petition was being discussed at this time, though I know the meeting petition was brought up later.
The petition Springfielder posted is still fraudulent. It contains misleading information and I personally know that it was to be used against housing that is not a “Special use†as defined by the overlay. Then add in the fact that it was indeed presented as a sign in sheet rather than a petition at that particular public meeting. For the record, I when I heard what it was and it was handed to me, I simply moved the sheet from under the clip and made sure others behind me knew it was not a sign in sheet and to read it before signing. It was all very poor form on Louise and Company’s part. But, many things they do and say are.
Regardless, this thread was more about how someone did indeed go around and get some number of signatures using misleading information about the car wash. To get back on subject, here’s my earlier comments:
QuotePersonally, I am more concerned of how the interpretation of the code was explained as it has been said many times by it's detractors that the overlay prevented the opening of intensive automotive uses and therefore the car wash was not allowed. Not a correct explanation. The overlay does not prevent the opening of a car wash.
This is the type of thing that concerns me. It is the same type of issue that has been brought forward against SPAR Council in the past and one that should not occur again. Even if ten of the names on the list were given misleading information, it should be corrected and the member who did it be prevented from doing it again.
From personal experience, it is the spreading of propaganda and misinformation on the part of SPAR Council and some of it’s supporters, that causes the biggest problems in this community and causes the riffs between the various groups. Misuse of petitions is simply one of the way this occurs.
Quote from: Dan B on January 18, 2010, 03:34:21 PM
Quote from: CS Foltz on January 18, 2010, 03:10:49 PM
Dan B...........I have to ask this and hope you will not take offence but I would like to know if your comfortable with answering...........why did you not renew your membership in SPAR?
Initially it was an economic/health decision. This all occurred about the time my dad was diagnosed with cancer and my mom had a stroke in the Winter/Spring of 2008, subsequently, I had to spend a month in Maine with my mom. This was the biggest reason why I stepped down from the board.
I also was disillusioned with how the "executive committee" handled the rooming house issue. I was of the opinion that they agreed to the compromise without getting a vote from the board (At a minimum) or the membership (Ideally). Personally, I came to support the so-called "compromise", but I did not feel it was their decision to make without the rest of the board. Also, I was the person who nominated Alex S to the board, so how that played out pissed me off, and lastly, the games that were played with the SPAR forums pissed me off. It was an issue at every single meeting for the almost three years I was on the board, and I just got sick of defending it to people who by-and-large, wouldn't post on it either way.
The latter issues alone would not have made me step down, but with my parents illnesses, I simply didnt have the energy to deal with the drama.
This was also about the time StephenDare! decided I was the bane of all evil, and spent the better part of the year trying to paint me as an evil, business ruining, lying, asshole.
All in all, 2008 was not a great year for me personally, and as a logical result SPAR become unimportant in the grander scheme of things.
I have not renewed since because I am not a fan of how many things have been handled.
I'm sorry to hear of your personal/family struggles, and understand completely. I've been there too, caring for a sick parent for an extended period of time, (Cerebral Aneurysm, Open Craniotomy, followed by an extended battle with a virulent MRSA infection, courtesy of medical malpractice). Mine thankfully made a full recovery, thank God. But it was a long and draining process, and a real eye opener, as the quality of medical care in this day and age is just not what it used to be. It's also a psychological mindfuck, no matter what your age, when the tables are turned and you find yourself caring for those who've always taken care of you. Brings the shortness, the preciousness, of all this, home to you. If you can survive that particular ordeal, you can survive anything. Sorry to get sappy. Just wanted to say I understand.
i'm beginning to think the goal of the group of 6 is to simply maintain the negative press for as long as possible in hopes of hurting the organization one way or another.
that's the strategy.
a slow, constant, negative drumbeat to make people think twice about getting involved.
Sooner or later I wouldn't be surprised if someone within the organization decides to generate negative press about this group of 6 once a week, for months on end.
I'm quite impressed that they haven't lowered themselves to to that level yet.
Probably a good thing, in the end.
Anyone want to take bets on what the next negative thread will be:
A. "Unmarried couples unwelcome in Springfield?"
B. "Secret meeting between Spar, SRG, and Satan?"
C. "I didn't get my newsletter, therefore they are purposely trying to with hold information from me"
D. "Spar misspells word, error points to massive fraud & incompetence."
Fsu813
To begin with, the negative press you talk about...odd, is it not, that it is all based on fact. So, if it is negative, it is actually the fault of SPAR Council.
Second, your postings are beginning to make it sound like you are getting desperate.
Odd, is it not, that many of these threads actually got started because Louise and Company has indeed been promoting "bad press" about a select few and various "undesirable" businesses. And has been doing it for years.
It does seem like your stategy is to continue to promote SPAR Council's misinformation, unlawful behavior and belittling ways. Good luck with all that.
yes. all Spars fault. bad. evil. corrupt. conspiracy. curse upon the land. anything good that happens is despite them.
i know the drill by now.
"...Louise and Company has indeed been promoting "bad press" about a select few and various "undesirable" businesses..."
- yea. thier newsletters, public board meetings, and public group meetings are overrun with namecalling, accusations, hurtful rumors, personal insults, and are in large part concerned with destroying your reputation....just like MJ. Yup. You nailed it.
"...misinformation, unlawful behavior and belittling ways."
- is that supposed to be ironic?
Glad to hear you admit it is all SPAR's fault...............been kinda obvious for quite some time!
Do you know what is ironic Dan, there were some people who got lawyers pro bono (worked many hours) to fight it all tooth and nail to stay with the 300 square feet. One person in particular was so angry at the compromise that SPAR was accused of giving in to the situation and they SPAR were now responsible for any proliferation. It is interesting the position these same people are now taking. I was told "It is Louise DeSpain's fault that more houses will open"
I thought it was nessessary to work out a compromise to avoid a nasty situation, I did not realize that the SPAR board did it of their own volition, I do not think theey did. There was a group willling to hire a lawyer to keep things from gettting messy.. I helped pay for the lawyer who drew it up, but I thought the compromise was worked out outside the city chambers, where one lady working on the compromise was loudly verbally attacked, by the people wishing for the 300 feet to stay. It is a long and messy story, but there are people who keep changing sides, and who gets all the blame, no matter which side, Louise and SPAR
As I said, Chris, in the end, I agreed with the compromise. However, I believed it was an issue that should have been voted on by the board, before being brokered with Gaffneys office. It was not.
Dan, I did not get too involved, I know I was tired of it all, but I was asked to contribute towards the lawyer, I believe Trautmann got hit with the largest portion. (but the businesses in place agreed to the compromise they were then able to continue in place and I thought all was finished.) Then I posted on the SPAR forum asking for donations and found out about the pro bono lawyers since I was contacted by them, somewhat upset that their work was for nought, it had been for free and now we were paying. The same people who asked them for help have now flip flopped. I wish I had known of the pro bono work, since I have great respect and admire the lawyers in volved.
No one is without blame in all of this but all the SPAR bashing is really terrible and everything keeps coming around to it.
I have not always agreed with things at SPAR as well you know but I am impressed that they keep on trying and I have never heard any name calling in spite of huge fabrications aimed at them.
Quote from: stephendare on January 19, 2010, 03:15:50 AM
Dan B.
What a self pitying crock.
You must not have had too bad a year, since you spent most of it slandering me to the neighborhood and spending endless days on this forum calling me a liar and and asshole because your business associate and friend Craig Van Horn decided to break contracts and steal me and Johns belongings.
It took a year to finally get our stuff back from the building after he finally lost it, and even then I had to get it from Kevin Gay.
Im sorry you have problems in your life. I lost my dad and my grandmother in the same year, and you couldnt keep from calling me every name you could think of on a daily basis.
You are and have been a bully and in my opinion led the way at SPAR during your time there in the practice of bulllying those with whom you didnt agree.
Even now, you feel the need to drag my into you self pitying little screeds.
If you remember however, I repeatedly asked you to simply stay the hell out of the situation with Craig, as I did not believe you understood what was going on, and wasnt your business.
What a guy.
For the use of the word "Screed" I award you 10 points. Not a word that works its way into many conversations.
Screed a lengthy piece of writing; a discourse or harangue.
Quote from: stephendare on January 19, 2010, 03:24:40 AM
Stick around Steno. The Springfield forums are screedy in general.
Here, like the rain, it screeds upon both the just and the unjust.
If we end up joining SPAR and putting one of their signs on our house, is that the equivalent of wearing a "Scarlet Letter?"
Quote from: stephendare on January 19, 2010, 03:49:46 AM
Nah, it would just initiate a private betting pool as to how long it would remain there before you ended up tearing it down and burning it.
Stephen, am I going to be able to meet you at First Friday? Just wondering who I will meet so I can put some faces and names together. I'm interested in meeting everyone, even if I disagree with you.
When I walk in, will everyone see me as the giant chicken leg that cartoon characters see when they are on a deserted island? Will there be a bidding war? What if my wife goes to one side and me the other? Will this destroy my marriage? Who gets the kids? Does SPAR end up taking custody of them and sending them to China to knit soccer balls for 0.23 an hour?
Maybe I should skip the First Fridays and the wine and stay at home with the wife and share a Zima? Hmmmm, decisions, decisions, decisions....
Quote from: stephendare on January 19, 2010, 04:10:16 AM
Unfortunately I will not see you at the First Friday, Steno.
While I live in the neighborhood, I also have a pretty demanding personal schedule. On the first friday Im scheduled for several other events.
Im much easier to locate on weeknights, and of course you are welcome to drop by the metrojacksonville.com public meetings on Tuesday Nights at Three Layers. Its a good group and the discussion is always entertaining and stimulating.
I think you will find that the division of opinion on the boards will have not much to do with how people treat each other in a personal manner in the neighborhood.
For instance, I personally have endless amounts of (unrequited) affection for Chris Farley, as I think she is well spoken and occasionally clever. I suspect that the unrequited nature of my fondness for her is due to the exact same reason on my part.
And I adore several of the SPAR hearties.
Several of them can't stand a word I write, but when we are together in person cant find a thing to disagree with and generally spend a lot of time laughing at all the nonsense.
Its a friendly hob nobby gossipy bunch. I often think of it as hobbiton as conceived by Dixie Carter.
On the worst day its like having dinner with Aunt Bea and Barney and Andy and hearing on the radio that the Wicked Witch of the West just got elected Mayor of Mayberry, and really when you think of it, thats not such a bad thing. At least theres still the pot roast.
I think the party is at Lisa's house this time? If it is, you and your wife would be missing a good thing to pass up a chance for hospitality in the home of this happy energetic and iconoclastic family. If I were the two of you, I would get thee hence!
I think I saw that Lisa wrote that it will be held at the model on W. 3rd St.
Quote from: Dan B on January 18, 2010, 10:21:17 PM
As I said, Chris, in the end, I agreed with the compromise. However, I believed it was an issue that should have been voted on by the board, before being brokered with Gaffneys office. It was not.
Dan I have thought about this and I think that this is not a reason for you to stay away from SPAR. The compromise was suggested by Mack, Michael, and some language volunteered by Alberta Hipps, that is why she took the tongue lashing at the city hall from the 300 sq. footers. Spar put no money into this deal, it was Michael, Katherine, myself (and I only paid for one hour's time) and others, "He who pays the piper picks the tune". It was thought absolutely nessessary to work a compromise between the hired lawyer and the city, it was thought that large prolonged law suits would do more harm than good. Gloria wrote on this web somewhere that Michael hired a lawyer to put them out of business, that is not so, at no time did the compromise group say this, that is why the 300 sq footers were so angry at us and accused SPAR of causing the proliferation of boarding houses. It really was not a subject for a vote at the SPAR board, the money was put up by others and the matter settled. (somewhat it seems)
Yes, I'm using the model home, since I just hosted one of the New Years wandering coctail party stops at my house. My family members are not all as social as I am so I try to use my house sparingly. Plus the model has concrete floors so the cleanup is much easier.
Something that has caught my eye is the numbers that have been posted regarding the population of the Springfield area.........there has been posted 2,500 to 5,000 for Springfield proper! So I have to ask, if SPAR can only muster 100 signatures on any petition how can this organization speak for the area? I mean to say, your not even talking about 10% which would be 500! So how can an organization with that few, represent the area?It is bad enough that SPAR dictates who does what, where and how, but in order to be an effective organization is it not customary to represent all of the people who live there and not just a select few for whatever purposes they have in mind?
CSFOLTZ again SPAR did not organize the petition. It was done by a couple of residents at the last minute, due to the fact that one for the pro group appeared on Facebook, which got 59 signatures. Please let it go the car wash is going in.
Chris, you might as well give up. Some of the people who post on here seem to do it only to hear themselves. No matter what the topic, they are like that old man who sits next to you on the bus every friggin' day telling you repeatedly about his proctology exam. Yah, we know and no I can't answer as to why your doctor has such large hands.
Never you gave me a good giggle
Quote from: nvrenuf on January 19, 2010, 05:01:01 PM
Chris, you might as well give up. Some of the people who post on here seem to do it only to hear themselves. No matter what the topic, they are like that old man who sits next to you on the bus every friggin' day telling you repeatedly about his proctology exam. Yah, we know and no I can't answer as to why your doctor has such large hands.
nvrenuf i think the quote you are looking for is "The tendency to whining and complaining may be taken as the surest sign symptom of little souls and inferior intellects."
Lord Jeffrey
QuoteChrisFarley" Dan I have thought about this and I think that this is not a reason for you to stay away from SPAR. The compromise was suggested by Mack, Michael, and some language volunteered by Alberta Hipps, that is why she took the tongue lashing at the city hall from the 300 sq. footers. Spar put no money into this deal, it was Michael, Katherine, myself (and I only paid for one hour's time) and others, "He who pays the piper picks the tune". It was thought absolutely nessessary to work a compromise between the hired lawyer and the city, it was thought that large prolonged law suits would do more harm than good. Gloria wrote on this web somewhere that Michael hired a lawyer to put them out of business, that is not so, at no time did the compromise group say this, that is why the 300 sq footers were so angry at us and accused SPAR of causing the proliferation of boarding houses. It really was not a subject for a vote at the SPAR board, the money was put up by others and the matter settled. (somewhat it seems)
I just love how some things get twisted around to fit someone’s desires.
The “compromise†that ended up as 2007-1046 was basically the same one that was told to Louise and Alberta months and months before the final vote. As soon as Alberta tried her little end run at City Council and couldn’t get it done, they had a meeting with Dr, Gaffney and members of the Office of General Council. Louise and Alberta went to this meeting hoping for a much stricter law than was then enforceable. They did not get it.
You might remember that both Louise and Alberta (hired by Mack, I believe.) spoke against the compromise many times. After months of “debate†and many hurt feelings on everyone’s side, and after we had hired a lawyer ourselves, Michael hired a lawyer just before the compromise, which had been almost set aside, was going to a vote. The lawyer spent time with General Council and discovered that he could not get what his client wanted. Which was indeed a law the would effectively shut us down. By his own admission, all this lawyer was able to do was change some wording, and again, by his own admission, to justify his charges.
While there was indeed a “300 groupâ€, and there was indeed a “just get rid of them groupâ€, the ending compromise did absolutely nothing but gave us, the operators of the “special uses†what we wanted to begin with, simply to be left alone and to be allowed to exist as we had for many years.
The simple truth was that all of those months were for not, if the original correction had been passed, the “special uses†would be exactly the same as they are now.
That whole affair was indeed the fault of SPAR Council as when they were informed by Dr, Gaffney, they raised a battle cry instead of finding out the real facts. When the compromise was first given to them and they were told that was what should be done, they did not embrace it, they fought against it. When it became obvious that they could not hurt us without causing a very expensive lawsuit for the city, the city convinced them to back down.
I get very tired of the BS that some post as fact. What I just described is indeed supported by various information available from the city and is all public record. By and By, Mack,, Michael and a few others did indeed come out and publicly say they wanted us shut down. We didn’t imagine it, it was fact.
Again, this particular issue was a great example of Louise and Company and let’s not forget, Kathryn, at their best (or worst?). Misinformation, incorrect information and suddenly, a small thing that should have been done in a few weeks took months and thousands of dollars to lawyers. All because they do not like a group of people.
Louise and Company are at it again and will indeed take this community and the city through lawsuits or worse if they have their way.
I am not sure just how SPAR and its bylaws are set up......but most organizations have an out, such as a vote of "No Confidence" in which case SPAR's Board would in essence be told to take a hike............is this a viable option? If its not.....start an alternative organization because if you have an organization that truely represents the area, then the Board is elected and WANTS the area input! THey have no hidden agenda, no catering to a select few and true representation of the area!
Quote from: CS Foltz on January 19, 2010, 07:03:47 PM
I am not sure just how SPAR and its bylaws are set up......but most organizations have an out, such as a vote of "No Confidence" in which case SPAR's Board would in essence be told to take a hike............is this a viable option? If its not.....start an alternative organization because if you have an organization that truely represents the area, then the Board is elected and WANTS the area input! THey have no hidden agenda, no catering to a select few and true representation of the area!
Hahahahahahaa...that's a good one! Like SPAR ever takes a vote, LMAO!
Ask anyone when the last election was, that is required by their bylaws? <*crickets chirping*>