Metro Jacksonville

FTA 01-10
Wednesday, January 13, 2010
Contact:  Paul Griffo
Tel.:  (202) 366-4064

Obama Administration Proposes Major Public Transportation Policy Shift to Highlight Livability
Changes Include Economic Development and Environmental Benefits

In a dramatic change from existing policy, U.S. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood today proposed that new funding guidelines for major transit projects be based on livability issues such as economic development opportunities and environmental benefits, in addition to cost and time saved, which are currently the primary criteria.

In remarks at the Transportation Research Board annual meeting, the Secretary announced the Obama Administration’s plans to change how projects are selected to receive federal financial assistance in the Federal Transit Administration’s (FTA) New Starts and Small Starts programs. As part of this initiative, the FTA will immediately rescind budget restrictions issued by the Bush Administration in March of 2005 that focused primarily on how much a project shortened commute times in comparison to its cost.

“Our new policy for selecting major transit projects will work to promote livability rather than hinder it,” said Secretary LaHood. “We want to base our decisions on how much transit helps the environment, how much it improves development opportunities and how it makes our communities better places to live.”

The change will apply to how the Federal Transit Administration evaluates major transit projects going forward. In making funding decisions, the FTA will now evaluate the environmental, community and economic development benefits provided by transit projects, as well as the congestion relief benefits from such projects.

“This new approach will help us do a much better job of aligning our priorities and values with our transit investments” said FTA Administrator Peter Rogoff. “No longer will we ignore the many benefits that accrue to our environment and our communities when we build or expand rail and bus rapid transit systems.”

FTA will soon initiate a separate rulemaking process, inviting public comment on ways to appropriately measure all the benefits that result from such investments.

We need to make sure Mayer Payton sees and understands this. and the inner core neighborhoods need to push the powers that be toward real rail base transit

nice!

Well if Johnny could read it might help..............but neither can any of his boys and girls! Until this Administration leaves, I see nothing happening but it is nice to think about!

QuoteThe change will apply to how the Federal Transit Administration evaluates major transit projects going forward. In making funding decisions, the FTA will now evaluate the environmental, community and economic development benefits provided by transit projects, as well as the congestion relief benefits from such projects.

QuoteFTA is one of 11 operating administrations within the U.S. Department of Transportation with over 500 employees located in Washington, DC and 10 regional offices across the nation. As authorized by the Safe, Accountable, Flexible, Efficient Transportation Equity Act: A Legacy for Users of 2005 (SAFETEA-LU), the FTA provides stewardship of combined formula and discretionary programs totaling more than $10B to support a variety of locally planned, constructed, and operated public transportation systems throughout the United States. Transportation systems typically include buses, subways, light rail, commuter rail, streetcars, monorail, passenger ferry boats, inclined railways, or people movers.

http://www.fta.dot.gov/about_FTA.html

These same criteria should be applied to road building as well.  The other buzz term they should add is "community sustainability", i.e. maintaining, revitalizing, and/or upgrading existing communities versus diluting them by enabling new communities via urban sprawl.

Quote from: CS Foltz on January 13, 2010, 10:02:31 PM
Well if Johnny could read it might help..............but neither can any of his boys and girls! Until this Administration leaves, I see nothing happening but it is nice to think about!

that is completely unnecessary!

what is important to note is that the Bush Administration used cost as a majopr factor....this is partially why Jax. went the BRT route 8 years ago.

we now have a chance to do this the correct way, There are people on this board that have posted very viable plans that the city should consider instead of that BRT joke that they are trying to push on us. I have not heard a single positive comment about BRT but it seems most people get stoked about rail

I bet if the head honchos at JTA contacted U.S. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood and asked him exactly what the president wanted and said we would do it. we would get funding for it.

Y'all KNOW you can't change City Hall Right? Yeah, well stick this in your pipe and smoke it... About 6 months ago when MJ's own Stephendare and I attended the National High Speed Rail Conference in Orlando, we both had an opportunity at the microphone to unload on a who's who of national, state and local officials.

While I tackled rail details and pushed the FACT that without Jacksonville in the plan, High Speed or any other speed rail is going to fail in Florida. Stephendare, jumped on the big shots with "Why in the hell doesn't the government at all levels score these projects by livability, sustainability and development potential? We both got our share of oohs and ahh's.  Stephen ended up in a table where he could talk with several DOT secretary's and rail operators including an Amtrak VP. I got put in charge of a group-table that included DOCTOR DOC (FL HSR) DOCKERY, CSX, NS, and most of the West Florida delegation.

Suddenly there is an announcement from DOT that in the future we will score mass transit projects by "livability, sustainability, and development potential..."  Yeah, maybe that is just a coincidence, but if it is it's a REALLY strange one. I'd like to think after 30+ years of pushing Florida and Jacksonville, I just watched a friend win one for the team!

Stephendare will be available for autographs at stage door 15, 10 minutes after the show!

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: samiam on January 13, 2010, 11:54:58 PM
I bet if the head honchos at JTA contacted U.S. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood and asked him exactly what the president wanted and said we would do it. we would get funding for it.

I'll take that bet

Quote from: Ocklawaha on January 14, 2010, 12:25:43 AM
Y'all KNOW you can't change City Hall Right? Yeah, well stick this in your pipe and Suddenly there is an announcement from DOT that in the future we will score mass transit projects by "livability, sustainability, and development potential..."  Yeah, maybe that is just a coincidence, but if it is it's a REALLY strange one. I'd like to think after 30+ years of pushing Florida and Jacksonville, I just watched a friend win one for the team!

while I'd love to give you guys the credit, the reality is there was a huge policy shift in Washington...which includes the hiring of lots of people with similar mindsets to yours.

This shift in policy is certaintly a good thing.

Is the proposed BRT in Jacksonville in line with the new Public Transportation Policy Shift?   

Only if your the Grand Sultan of Texas...

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: samiam on January 14, 2010, 08:39:06 AM
Is the proposed BRT in Jacksonville in line with the new Public Transportation Policy Shift?   

actually yes....the new Federal policy is still ok with BRT...just wants to focus major projects (called New Starts) on things that enhance livability....our new BRT plan is much smaller in scope and cost than the previous plan.

Gentlemen..........this is past due for sure! Now maybe the Administration, as well as JTA, would be receptive to alternate modes of "Mass Transit"...........maybe!

Quote from: stephendare on January 14, 2010, 10:37:56 AM
There is something to be said for the power of ideas, Ock.  And I think that we are all discovering that there is a real need for people who are not trying to push a development or consulting based agenda to be present at these public forums.

And that is why us "consultants" are constantly trying to find ways to engage the public...whether it be public workshops, open houses, etc.....the frustrating thing is it seems like many of the regular posters on MJ never come off the website!

From Ray LaHood's blog:

QuoteWalking the walk; New transit action puts livability criteria squarely into the mix

Folks, here's some big news on the transit and livability front.

With support from President Obama, we’re taking a major step forward to free our New Starts and Small Starts programs from their current narrow requirements.

As Michael Cooper reports, since 2005, these requirements have excluded many good projects--popular projects like light-rail and streetcars. Measuring only cost and how fast a project can move the most people the greatest distance simply misses the boat, and, as reported in Streetsblog, has slowed down transit expansion. In 2010, a policy that has that effect is ridiculous.

Look, everywhere I go, people tell me they want better transportation in their communities. They want the opportunity to leave their cars behind. To live near work and schools and good hospitals. And to enjoy clean, green neighborhoods. The old way of doing things just doesn't value what people want.

Now, the Recovery Act discretionary TIGER grants we announce soon will help some communities achieve these broader goals.

But if we’re serious--really serious--about creating livable communities built around good transportation, then our Federal Transit Administration needs to consider key livability factors when evaluating non-Recovery Act transit proposals.

Factors like enivronmental benefits and economic development opportunities.

Unfortunately, FTA's flagship programs use cost and performance requirements that are too narrow to allow for weighing these livability factors.

So we are opening them up to a broader set of six performance criteria:

    * Economic development
    * Mobility improvements
    * Environmental benefits
    * Operating efficiencies
    * Cost effectiveness
    * Land use

These criteria--that our old way of doing business simply didn't account for--add up to a much fuller picture of how proposed projects will serve their communities. And these are the kinds of criteria we pledged last spring to support alongside our Sustainable Communities partners HUD and EPA.

Obviously, we still must evaluate a project's ability to move people from one place to another. But, as Publicola notes, now we can add to the mix how new transit ideas can help communities reduce their carbon footprints, spur economic activity, and relieve congestion.

It's what people want, and it just makes sense.

http://fastlane.dot.gov/2010/01/walking-the-walk-new-transit-action-puts-livability-criteria-squarely-into-the-mix.html

Quote from: Ocklawaha on January 14, 2010, 12:25:43 AM
Yeah, well stick this in your pipe and smoke it... About 6 months ago when MJ's own Stephendare and I attended the National High Speed Rail Conference in Orlando, we both had an opportunity at the microphone to unload on a who's who of national, state and local officials.

While I tackled rail details and pushed the FACT that without Jacksonville in the plan, High Speed or any other speed rail is going to fail in Florida. Stephendare, jumped on the big shots with "Why in the hell doesn't the government at all levels score these projects by livability, sustainability and development potential? We both got our share of oohs and ahh's.  Stephen ended up in a table where he could talk with several DOT secretary's and rail operators including an Amtrak VP. I got put in charge of a group-table that included DOCTOR DOC (FL HSR) DOCKERY, CSX, NS, and most of the West Florida delegation.

Suddenly there is an announcement from DOT that in the future we will score mass transit projects by "livability, sustainability, and development potential..."  Yeah, maybe that is just a coincidence, but if it is it's a REALLY strange one. I'd like to think after 30+ years of pushing Florida and Jacksonville, I just watched a friend win one for the team!

Stephendare will be available for autographs at stage door 15, 10 minutes after the show![/color][/b]

Ock, this is your typical case of grandiose thinking.......though I applaud you for traveling to Orlando to participate in the HSR meeting,.........you're a bit late to the (Democratic) party on the idea of livable communities, which has been a cornerstone of the Democratic Party for a VERY long time:

Even LaHood made a statement way before the Orlando meeting to express this administration's support for livable communities and its transportation needs:

QuoteOctober 19, 2009
New Task Force on Livable Communities in the US Congress
Posted by Lauren Hilliard under GHG/VMT reduction, climate change, news, sustainable development, walkable communities
Leave a Comment
ANNOUNCEMENT OF THE FORMATION OF THE TASK FORCE ON LIVABLE COMMUNITIES

~news from Earl Blumenauer (D-OR), Chair of the new Task Force~

“Implementing strategies that incorporate the principles of livability will result in improved quality of life for all Americans and create a more efficient and more accessible transportation network that services the needs of individual communities”.  â€" Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood, Testimony to the House Appropriations Committee, March 18, 2009  


“HUD’s central mission â€" ensuring that every American has access to decent, affordable housing â€" can be achieved only in context of the housing, transportation, and energy costs and choices that American families experience each day.” â€" Housing Secretary Shaun Donovan, Testimony to the House Appropriations Committee, March 18, 2009


Dear Friend,

I am pleased to announce that the House Democratic Caucus is reinstating the Livable Communities Task Force  (LCTF). From the American Reinvestment and Recovery Act to climate change legislation to the new Partnership for Sustainable Communities between the Environmental Protection Agency, Department of Transportation, and Department of Housing and Urban Development, livable communities issues are at the forefront of this administration and Congressional activities.

When I came to Congress 13 years ago, the concept of livable communities was considered “novel.” Since then, I’ve watched it move from being desirable, to mainstream, to essential to our economy and the planet. I am pleased livability has become a focal point of this administration’s housing, transportation, and environmental efforts.

As Chairman of the new Livable Communities Task Force, I’d like to provide you with information about our efforts as well as invite you to join in this important undertaking.  Communities across the country are finding creative ways to improve their citizens’ quality of life. Federal policies â€" including transportation investments, tax incentives, environmental protections, citing federal facilities, and everything in between â€" have a profound effect on these efforts at the local level. The LCTF seeks to identify ways in which the federal government impacts community livability so it can be a strong partner in enhancing quality of life in communities across the country. Intended to play both an educational and legislative role in Congress, the LCTF will engage Members of Congress on livability issues by:

holding briefings with experts,
roundtable discussions and town halls with stakeholders,
sharing information via newsletters and dear colleagues,
collaborating with appropriate federal agencies, and
developing and promoting livable communities legislation.
Task Force members will support federal policies that:

provide communities with the tools to solve their own local problems;
promote cost-effective and environmentally friendly solutions to infrastructure challenges;
encourage multi-objective and multi-benefit management choices;
focus on partnerships between local government, private companies, federal agencies, non-profits, and citizen groups for finding solutions; and
coordinate federal transportation, environmental protection, and housing policies.
A current list of members of the Livable Communities Task Force is below. Please note that the list is likely to grow and will be kept updated on our website (www.blumenauer.house.gov/livablecommunities).

As an important stakeholder in promoting livable communities, I invite you to join this Congressional effort. The Task Force will be highlighting local and national livability initiatives and events, so please send any information you would like us to be aware of to livablecommunities@mail.house.gov.

You can also email us to receive:

periodic e-newsletters on livable communities information and briefings;
invitations to briefings on topics important to the livability of our communities; and
information about opportunities for the Task Force to provide a channel for your activities, studies, and ideas on briefings and legislation.
Thank you for your interest in this issue. I look forward to working with you to make our communities safer, healthier, and more economically secure.

Sincerely,

Earl Blumenauer

Member of Congress

Chairman, Livable Communities Task Force

http://movingslower.wordpress.com/2009/10/19/new-task-force-on-livable-communities-in-the-us-congress/

Quote from: tufsu1 on January 14, 2010, 11:13:35 AM

Quote from: stephendare on January 14, 2010, 10:37:56 AM
There is something to be said for the power of ideas, Ock.  And I think that we are all discovering that there is a real need for people who are not trying to push a development or consulting based agenda to be present at these public forums.

And that is why us "consultants" are constantly trying to find ways to engage the public...whether it be public workshops, open houses, etc.....the frustrating thing is it seems like many of the regular posters on MJ never come off the website!

Guilty! I have only been to two city council meetings both times the issue I went for was put off until a later date.

Quote from: tufsu1 on January 14, 2010, 11:13:35 AM

Quote from: stephendare on January 14, 2010, 10:37:56 AM
There is something to be said for the power of ideas, Ock.  And I think that we are all discovering that there is a real need for people who are not trying to push a development or consulting based agenda to be present at these public forums.

And that is why us "consultants" are constantly trying to find ways to engage the public...whether it be public workshops, open houses, etc.....the frustrating thing is it seems like many of the regular posters on MJ never come off the website!

It's VERY hard to engage the public in NE Florida, because under Republican rule the role of PUBLIC transportation has been somewhat of a fringe issue. Remember in the "You're on Your Own" society advocated by the Republicans (who incidentally also HATE PUBLIC schools), if you can't afford your own transportation, you're out of luck.

It's a mindset that CANNOT be broken under Republican rule.

QuoteIt's VERY hard to engage the public in NE Florida, because under Republican rule the role of PUBLIC transportation has been somewhat of a fringe issue. Remember in the "You're on Your Own" society advocated by the Republicans (who incidentally also HATE PUBLIC schools), if you can't afford your own transportation, you're out of luck.

So you are saying its Republican's faults that the majority of citizens of northeast Florida choose not to get engaged?  

Doubtful.

Quote from: cline on January 14, 2010, 04:24:31 PM

QuoteIt's VERY hard to engage the public in NE Florida, because under Republican rule the role of PUBLIC transportation has been somewhat of a fringe issue. Remember in the "You're on Your Own" society advocated by the Republicans (who incidentally also HATE PUBLIC schools), if you can't afford your own transportation, you're out of luck.

So you are saying its Republican's faults that the majority of citizens of northeast Florida choose not to get engaged?  

Doubtful.

We definitely are lagging behind on rail compared to the rest of the nation,........remember the "if it can't pay for itself or even be done profitable, it shouldn't be done" concept that is being advocated by Republicans on transit issues.

Hell's bells, I'm no Republican, but the more venom that is regurgitated on them by the loony fringe here on MJ, the more I'm thinking we all need to join them. If for no other reason then to keep the hate vendors from getting a foothold.

The sleaze just keeps on coming.

OCKLAWAHA

Ock, nothing to do with hate, just the regressive policies that Republican rule brings.

After all, supporting anything PUBLIC as in PUBLIC transportation is somewhat of an oxymoron in Republican phylosophy, hence Democrats being better on this issue:

Quote

(http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z276/fayeforcure/livablebanner.jpg)

Every community in America â€" regardless of its size, geographic location, demographic composition, or economic base -- aspires to become a place where families are safe, enjoy personal and environmental health, can select from a range of housing and transportation choices, and have access to educational and economic opportunities.  These are the building blocks of livable communities.

Unfortunately, the federal government has all too often hindered or even blocked the ability of local communities to achieve these goals. In fact, federal policies have often led to today’s unproductive and even destructive patterns of community neglect,  inefficient energy use, economic dislocation, and environmental damage.  Sadly, in many cases, American taxpayers have paid for it.

It’s time to change this relationship.  It’s time to create a new, dynamic partnership in which the federal government enables and helps local governments create livable communities where people are safe, healthy and economically secure.

The Livable Communities Task Force   recognizes that federal policies â€" from transportation to tax incentives to environmental regulations and everything in between â€" have a profound effect on the livability of communities. This Task Force seeks to identify the ways in which the federal government can affect community livability and improve Americans’ quality of life. This includes reducing the nation’s dependence on oil, protecting the environment, improving public health and investing in housing and transportation projects that create jobs and give people more commuting choices.    

The first step is to create a legislative agenda for Congress that demonstrates the federal potential for shaping livable communities, demonstrating the power of the federal government to analyze the needs of a community and help them create solutions that work best for them.

With significant resources, and in coordination with the administration’s new Partnership for Sustainable Communities (which spans the Department of Housing and Urban Development, the Department of Transportation, and the Environmental Protection Agency), the Federal Government is poised to help communities take advantage of federal and local investment opportunities to provide a range of housing and transportation choices, create safer and healthier communities, strengthen their economies, and protect their environment.  

http://blumenauer.house.gov/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=1553

"Federal potential for shaping livable communities"? Thats is all fine and good but with some vision and a plan, local level should be able to do just fine! I am not comfortable with the Federal government trying to shape much of anything..............nothing has been shaped to this point and all of a sudden now?

CS...the Feds generally fund 50% of the cost of transit projects....the plans have been and will continue to be local/state...but FTA won't recommend approval if they don't see the 'livability'.

(http://inlinethumb58.webshots.com/19321/2366881090104969885S600x600Q85.jpg)
Though some might damn my photo spreads, THIS ONE illustrates the level of service that is being cheered by Faye and like minded citizens.  When I wrote that Amtrak needs to do better, rise above Greyhound and basic accommodations, and restore trains with marketing personality, menu's and special services, I was told "Your Photos be damned! (implied - Amtrak is fine as it is)--- Sorry folks but it ISN'T FINE!

Quote from: FayeforCure on January 14, 2010, 04:05:10 PM
Ock, this is your typical case of grandiose thinking.......though I applaud you for traveling to Orlando to participate in the HSR meeting,.........you're a bit late to the (Democratic) party on the idea of livable communities, which has been a cornerstone of the Democratic Party for a VERY long time:

Even LaHood made a statement way before the Orlando meeting to express this administration's support for livable communities and its transportation needs:

Quote

Not really Faye, both you and I know we didn't invent this concept, but Stephen bringing it into a rail meeting with every national and state official, was a master stroke.  Perhaps it reminded some of our goals, perhaps, it introduced others to the concept, and perhaps it changed a mind or two, either way, friend Stephen is to be praised for taking the mike and preaching the gospel.

It's VERY hard to engage the public in NE Florida, because under Republican rule the role of PUBLIC transportation has been somewhat of a fringe issue. Remember in the "You're on Your Own" society advocated by the Republicans (who incidentally also HATE PUBLIC schools), if you can't afford your own transportation, you're out of luck.

It's a mindset that CANNOT be broken under Republican rule.

BS, drivel, garbage, absurd, debris, balderdash, poppycock, twaddle, baloney, bull, bunk, trash, foolishness, hokum, hooey, horsefeathers, refuse, ridiculousness, rot, rubbish...

It was the Democratic Mayor of Jacksonville, who insisted on the Skyway and refused to even see the supporters of Streetcars, or the City Councilmen that supported streetcars. It was under the Democrats that the original streetcar system was scrapped. It was Democrats that allowed Amtrak to leave downtown due to expenses, when the city could have taken a leading role in keeping them downtown.  It was a Democratic President that launched the most successful campaign to destroy Amtrak, loping about 7,000 route miles from the system forever. (Washington DC-St. Louis; Chicago-Houston; New York-Tampa; Chicago-Seattle; Chicago-Miami/Tampa)

QuoteWe definitely are lagging behind on rail compared to the rest of the nation,........remember the "if it can't pay for itself or even be done profitable, it shouldn't be done" concept that is being advocated by Republicans on transit issues.

On Tuesday, Subsidy Scope, a subsidiary of the Pew Charitable Trust, reported that Amtrak, America's passenger rail company, "lost" an average of $38 per passenger. Citing a new metric for train depreciation, the report suggested that the railroad company has been less than transparent in its estimation of its own profitability.

It's interesting that the government spends an average of $38 on each Amtrak passenger, this isn't really news. Over a year ago, in fact, Amtrak president Alex Kummant stated that each passenger on the railroad represents a public capital expenditure of approximately $40, and similar figures have been bandied about for years. In fact, its amazing that some political think tanks and advocacy organizations continue to criticize Amtrak for its failure to make money. The "dark secret" seems to be that Amtrak is a financial failure, and that if rail travel were privatized, it would somehow be able to make a profit. This just isn't going to happen, however, if it were privatized with a system of built in financial incentives for such things as "Route Additions," "New Equipment," "Station Improvements," "New Trains," "Advertising," "Fuel Conservation," "On Time Performance."

The benefit of a transportation system doesn't present to the system itself, but rather to the economy and to the cities and citizens it services. The Pew Trust, by looking at the cost of tickets, comes to the same tired old "solution,"  that transportation systems have to pay for themselves." As officials and politicians calculate the value of America's passenger rail, they need to get past the idea that it must pay for itself. The measure of a rail line's profit is the energy and vitality that it brings to an area and the commerce that it supports.

Republicans KNOW the answer. Long-distance trains are the problem. This is perhaps one of the biggest myths. If you eliminate every long-distance train, your avoidable costs would decrease about $70 million a year-after about a year and a half of making labor protection costs. On a fully allocated basis, after five years, you might save annually about $300 million. Focusing on this problem is not going to save Amtrak. This approach is a red herring.

A Democrat War Cry! The Northeast Corridor (NEC) is profitable. The NEC may cover most of its above-the-rail costs, but it is an extremely costly piece of railroad to maintain. The NEC is not profitable and never will be. Sure, private groups might be interested in having it, but they would take it only with the promise of massive capital infusions.

A Bi-Partisan Solution? There is a quick fix - reform. The word reform is like catnip to those interested in a quick fix to Amtrak. If the answer were quick and easy, we would have solved the problem long ago. What needs to be done is to tightly manage the company and its finances and begin to make incremental but critical improvements to plant and equipment.


OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: tufsu1 on January 14, 2010, 11:13:35 AM

Quote from: stephendare on January 14, 2010, 10:37:56 AM
There is something to be said for the power of ideas, Ock.  And I think that we are all discovering that there is a real need for people who are not trying to push a development or consulting based agenda to be present at these public forums.

And that is why us "consultants" are constantly trying to find ways to engage the public...whether it be public workshops, open houses, etc.....the frustrating thing is it seems like many of the regular posters on MJ never come off the website!

LOL, Tufsu.  I didn't realize you had such a sense of humor.  ;D

My experience is that:

(1) consultants consider themselves "experts" and that they have nothing to learn from the lowly public they are supposed to serve so are seldom open minded to public input

(2) the politicians who take the consulting firms contributions for their campaigns accept (1) as an indisputable truth so they can justify siding with said consultants and "cover their tracks" regarding their "political obligations"

(3) the consultants, for additional insurance, have successfully lobbied to make sure quasi-judicial hearings such as zoning are required to give so much weight to "experts" that even when they fabricate the facts and the public has presented incontrovertible evidence the "expert" is wrong, or even lying, the consultants position will be taken as the only "correct" one in reaching a decision

(4) the public gets frustrated trying to show up at hearings where they are:
(a) frequently scheduled at times convenient for consultants, but not the working public, such as in the middle of the day, and at locations inconvenient for the interested public or lacking in adequate free parking
(b) frequently REscheduled at the hearing forcing the public to attend multiple hearings at said inconvenient times
(c) giving consultants unlimited time to advocate their cases but limiting the public to 3 minutes typically
(d) denying the public the chance to rebut consultants fully
(e) they find out at the hearing the consultants have done backroom deals with the bureaucrats and further input is of no consequence as the issue is already decided.

Add that most of the public isn't going to get wind of a hearing unless they read the legal notices.  I don't know many people who do that religiously.  Hearing publicity isn't too good.  Failure of the press to cover most issues presented at hearings makes it doubly hard.

The fact is, the public doesn't usually feel they get a far shake at "hearings".  Most "hearings" are really just a charade and the public has stopped going to most of them because they know they will be marginalized and steamrolled.

Do you really think a hearing featuring a public outcry against a project like the Outer Beltway would get FDOT, JTA, TPO, etc. to hesitate for even a second in pushing such a project through?  Especially, when the hearings are scheduled at a point after which years of "planning" and engineering are already invested by such organizations?

Sorry to be such a downer on your parade but I have been to my fair share of hearings and know first hand how they usually work.  You need to sit on the other side of the fence and you will understand what its like to sit in the bleachers, not the box seats given to consultants.

If they really wanted more public participation, maybe they should set up message boards like MJ.  They you would get the input you yearn for for sure.

well then stjr...you just haven't met the right consultant  ;)

Seriously, it is important not to confuse public hearings (like yesterday's on the Springfield Car Wash) with public workhops an the like...those are often held in the evening and in the affecetd area.

I would hope that those who showed up at any of last year's public meetings for the LRTP feel that people listened to them.

Thoughts from others?

(I know Ock, Lake, Lunican, and CS showed up).

btw...an overwhelming number of people at the LRTP workshops wanted more/better transit....and whether you or I like it, a significant # also thought the Outer Beltway and 9B couldn't be built soon enough!

Quote from: FayeforCure on January 14, 2010, 04:52:34 PM

Quote from: cline on January 14, 2010, 04:24:31 PM

QuoteIt's VERY hard to engage the public in NE Florida, because under Republican rule the role of PUBLIC transportation has been somewhat of a fringe issue. Remember in the "You're on Your Own" society advocated by the Republicans (who incidentally also HATE PUBLIC schools), if you can't afford your own transportation, you're out of luck.

So you are saying its Republican's faults that the majority of citizens of northeast Florida choose not to get engaged?  

Doubtful.

We definitely are lagging behind on rail compared to the rest of the nation,........remember the "if it can't pay for itself or even be done profitable, it shouldn't be done" concept that is being advocated by Republicans on transit issues.

would now be a good time to point out that USDOT Secretary Ray LaHood is a REPUBLICAN?

You don't say! I am SHOCKED!!!I thought all Reps were against transit.

Quote from: tufsu1 on January 15, 2010, 08:26:27 AM

Quote from: FayeforCure on January 14, 2010, 04:52:34 PM

Quote from: cline on January 14, 2010, 04:24:31 PM

QuoteIt's VERY hard to engage the public in NE Florida, because under Republican rule the role of PUBLIC transportation has been somewhat of a fringe issue. Remember in the "You're on Your Own" society advocated by the Republicans (who incidentally also HATE PUBLIC schools), if you can't afford your own transportation, you're out of luck.

So you are saying its Republican's faults that the majority of citizens of northeast Florida choose not to get engaged?  

Doubtful.

We definitely are lagging behind on rail compared to the rest of the nation,........remember the "if it can't pay for itself or even be done profitable, it shouldn't be done" concept that is being advocated by Republicans on transit issues.

would now be a good time to point out that USDOT Secretary Ray LaHood is a REPUBLICAN?

Poor tufsu1, you think I didn't know that? You should have seen the disappointment on John Mica's face when he didn't get that post. I sat at a St Johns county meeting when he got the phone call about Obama's appointment. Since it had been rumored that Obama would appoint a Republican to that post, it came as no REAL surprise that a fellow Illimois Republican ended up with the appointment. LaHood has done an excellent job representing the Democratic vision for Public Transportation!!

But lets examine a prevaling Republican view on PUBLIC transportation that you won't EVER see with Democrats!!

QuoteRepublicans Push Back on Mass Transit Socialism
Jan 26, 2009

By all definitions one of the oldest and the most pervasive forms of socialism in the United States is so called public transportation.  Our taxes fund it and it allows people to ride downtown in style on the government dime instead of buying a car like a patriotic American.  The auto industry sure wouldn’t need government help if every person you saw on a bus or subway was buying their own car.  Think about it.  We’re paying for public transportation and then we’re paying to save the auto industry from people not buying cars.  We’re getting it on both ends.

The Republicans get it.  Refusing to be pressured or bullied by the all-powerful bus driver union, Republican Senators have managed to drastically cut the amount of the stimulus to $10,000,000 and the House intends to go even lower.  Meanwhile, we’re spending over three times that much on good old American roads.  Instead of using our hard earned tax dollars to pay for freeloaders to ride the bus.  The Democrats say we have to reduce our dependence on foreign oil, but have you seen how cheap gas is now?    I can’t see it going back up anytime soon.

This is a moment for Republicans to pat themselves on the back.  Jim Oberstar (D-MN), chairman of the House Transportation and Infrastructure committee was in awe, “The reason for the reduction in overall funding â€" we took money out of Amtrak and out of aviation; we took money out of the Corps of Engineers, reduced the water infrastructure program, the drinking water and the wastewater treatment facilities and sewer lines, reduced that from $14 billion to roughly $9 billion â€" was the tax cut initiative that had to be paid for in some way by keeping the entire package in the range of $850 billion.”

Public transportation belongs to an older era.  It is a lot like those statues of Stalin they used to have in the Soviet Union, but thankfully its time has passed.  Transportation is far too important to be left to socialism.

http://thatsrightnate.com/2009/01/26/republicans-push-back-on-mass-transit-socialism/

Quote from: stephendare on January 15, 2010, 10:58:02 AM

QuotePoor tufsu1, you think I didn't know that? You should have seen the disappointment on John Mica's face when he didn't get that post. I sat at a St Johns county meeting when he got the phone call about Obama's appointment.

Faye.  Do you realize how ugly this makes you sound?

Do you realize how ugly the Republican "PUBLIC Transportation is Socialism" line is, and how it has held us back for decades?

Quote from: stephendare on January 15, 2010, 11:06:19 AM

I hope (and I sincerely mean this) that there isnt someone in your own life that is so spitefully driven to see you personally feel pain.

You don't think I felt personal pain, when Republicans like John Mica spitefully voted against stem cell research? ( his episcopal religion favors embryonic stem cell research if the cells are otherwise discarded)

In fact the Methodist and Presbyterian religions also favor ESCR!! Those are the religions listed for ALL 25 US congressmen representing Florida.

Thank goodness for Republicans like Specter and Orin Hatch who didn't spitefully vote against stem cell research, so we were able to pass the Stem Cell Research Enhancement Act twice with overwhelming majorities, only for Bush to use his first and third vetoes to kill it.

Over 100 million Americans are suffering from devastating conditions for which stem cell research is their only hope. Killing those hopes is unconcionable, as is getting a 0% rating by the Disabled American Veterans who sacrificed their lives for their country.

Those kind of spiteful votes hurt MILLIONS of Americans!!!

I think it's time for a new forum drinking game...

Each time Faye tears down a straw man, take a drink.

Granted, you might not get past 9am, but at least it makes the copy-and-paste blur entertaining, right?

Stephen, Lake, Steve and I can all speak to the Stem Cell vote with some assurance that we KNOW the subject, each a survivor of strict religious training as children.

FIRST: No thinking Christian, is ever going to let "Religion" (man made by definition) dictate ones stand on moral issues.

SECOND: Most Evangelical Christians are firmly against abortion. (THIS IS NOT THE PLACE FOR THAT DEBATE and such arguments will be removed)

Do the math Faye, if the perceived stem cells are from aborted babies, then there is NO SPITE in those votes at all. Right or wrong, they voted based on a concept that the need for stem cells would result in a new industry of breeding sacrificial stock for your researchers. 

Are you really so driven by spite and hate that anyone that makes a decision based on their own morality is interpreted as an assault on some holy institution?

One of the Christian "think tanks" came up with some numbers (again, right or wrong - I don't know) that said enough stem cells are harvested from natural still born babies, or accident victims so that abortion cell farms would never be needed.

I'd suggest if you really want to win elections based on this type of issue, you should look at Boston or San Francisco as possible relocation sites... It will be a cold day in hell when the religious Deep South votes for anything liberal.


OCKLAWAHA

Gentlemen and Ms Faye..........last I heard "Stem Cells" were being harvested from child birthing placenta! No babies have been harvested in any shape fashion or form. Deceased possibly but terminated I think not!

Quote from: CS Foltz on January 15, 2010, 10:29:03 PM
Gentlemen and Ms Faye..........last I heard "Stem Cells" were being harvested from child birthing placenta! No babies have been harvested in any shape fashion or form. Deceased possibly but terminated I think not!

Thank you CS Foltz. You are so right that no babies have been harvested in any shape or form. In fact the cells used were never implanted in the woman. ( but they are also not placental cells which are also legal to be used)

Using cells from deceased babies has been legal for over 40 years.

But the embryonic stem cells in question, that offer the most promise are the ones that are left over from fertility procedures. Cells that were never implanted in a woman and thus were never aborted, but are stored frozen in test tubes at fertility clinics.

Let me show you the picture of the cells that would otherwise be discarded ( remember this clump of cells is the size of the tip of a needle) and sits in a petri dish:

(http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z276/fayeforcure/stemcells2.jpg)

And here is how we can save millions of babies with these discarded cells:

QuoteNovember 17, 2009, 8:55 AM

Hans Keirstead Can Make Mice Walk Again (and Humans, Too?)
Seven years ago, he used stem cells to make paralyzed rats walk again. Next year his stem cell elixir will be injected into humans. What's next? It's anyone's guess.

By M.A. Woodbury

(http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z276/fayeforcure/stem-cell-culture-070809-lg.jpg)

In 2002, at his lab at UC-Irvine, Hans Keirstead delicately sliced open the spines of eight lab rats with a scalpel, then not so delicately punched into their spinal-cord tissue with the force of two hundred kilodynes. A week later, he reached for a vial inside which was something most of the scientific world believed was impossible: a stem-cell solution so pure that the risk of any newly derived nerve cells morphing into tumors had been all but eliminated. He drew some liquid from the vial and injected his elixir â€" set to grow into oligodendrocytes, which help ferry movement-generating electric impulses into muscles â€" into the spines of the recently paralyzed rats. Then an assistant grabbed a camera. The resulting video was short, but its meaning was unmistakable: The rats stood up and wobbly walked. The clip went viral and the public cheered. But many of Keirstead's colleagues were less sanguine. Was the science right? they wondered. He hadn't even published a paper on it yet. As early as this spring, we'll begin to find out.

Pending one final review, next year a handful of paralyzed men and women are set to get Keirstead's high-purity stem cells injected directly into their spinal cords, above and below the injury site. Conducted by the Geron Corporation â€" to whom Keirstead turned over his research â€" it will be the first-ever test of purified stem cells in humans. Again, the public is mesmerized by what could happen, and again, Keirstead's colleagues are nervous. If the phase-one trial exacerbates a subject's condition or, far worse, kills one, Keirstead's test won't just fail, it could retard progress on stem cells for decades. He is in effect taking the first major step on stem cells for everyone. And he's doing it with a novel therapy that has a shorter paper trail than most.

Aware of the stakes, the FDA temporarily put the brakes on the trial in August, weeks before it was originally set to begin, so it could rereview the data. But Keirstead is unfazed. He has confidence in his work. The trial application Geron submitted was the longest ever â€" twenty-two thousand pages â€" all pointing toward the success and efficacy of Keirstead's method. He feels certain the trial will go forward. "My guess is that the FDA got new supporting data that is very interesting and they just need time to vet it."

But Keirstead says he doesn't have time to wait. And neither do the infants born with spinal muscular atrophy, a genetic mutation that often kills within twelve months of birth. He has already moved on to securing FDA approval for what would be the world's second clinical trial of human embryonic stem cells to test a different stem-cell-derived nerve cell â€" the motor neuron â€" on infants with SMA.

This go-round, he wants to increase velocity. No dribbling out a paper here and there and waiting for his colleagues' comments. "This motor-neuron story, not a single publication out on it yet, but I'm going to the FDA!" trills Keirstead, forty-two. "I did everything at once this time: I did a manufacturing facility. I formulated the clinical plan, gathering all the medical doctors. I did the preclinical efficacy, preclinical safety, lined it all up side by side, moved it all forward." Sure, he has a handful of papers on his motor-neuron story in review, but those are almost an afterthought. Cures don't come from pushing paperwork.

Back in his office, where Keirstead awaits final word from the FDA on the oligodendrocytes trial, he points to a framed rejection letter. In regards to his pure nerve cells that most thought were an impossibility, a journal reviewer wrote: "If these findings are true, this would be the most meaningful discovery in the stem-cell field. But I simply don't believe it."

http://www.esquire.com/features/best-and-brightest-2009/human-embryonic-stem-cell-research-1209#ixzz0ckFYInAx

The title of this thread should be changed to:
"Thread Administration Proposes Major Subject Shift" from Transportation to Stem Cells.

Quote from: Ocklawaha on January 15, 2010, 07:43:32 PM
if the perceived stem cells are from aborted babies, then there is NO SPITE in those votes at all. Right or wrong, they voted based on a concept that the need for stem cells would result in a new industry of breeding sacrificial stock for your researchers.  

There is the mis-information fed to the public. Again, this has absolutely NOTHING to do with any aborted babies,..........as a matter of fact the cells used were NEVER implanted in a woman.
I do know Mica knows this and Crenshaw's aide was honest enough to admit that if the cells are currently frozen as left-over from fertility treatments, and will eventually be discarded then it doesn't make any sense not to use these cells to try to save lives including the lives of disabled babies.

Mica's aide Wiley Deck is extremely well-informed about embryonic stem cells. He knows they do not come from abortions, and so does Mica.

They also know that mainstream christian relgions such as episcopal, presbyterian and methodist are favorable to the use of these cells, as is the mormon religion.

Yet they spitefully vote against it.

Quote from: stephendare on January 15, 2010, 11:06:19 AM

I hope (and I sincerely mean this) that there isnt someone in your own life that is so spitefully driven to see you personally feel pain.

Well, my representative was spitefully driven to see me and my son feel personal pain:

QuoteActor speaks out on stem cells
Michael J. Fox joins Democrats and doctors in pushing research that could aid Parkinson's patients and others.
By LISA GREENE
Published September 29, 2004

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Times photos: Joseph Garnett Jr.]
Actor Michael J. Fox said President Bush's stance on stem cell research makes no sense.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

TAMPA - Actor Michael J. Fox told hundreds of University of South Florida students Tuesday that he can respect people who oppose stem cell research for ethical reasons.

But he said President Bush is not one of those people.

Fox, who came to Tampa with Democratic leaders to push for stem cell research, said Bush's policy is hypocritical. Condemning the research as unethical, but allowing some of it to proceed under strict limits, makes no sense to Fox.

"You can do this a little bit, just don't tell the neighbors," he said of Bush's position.

Research on embryonic stem cells could save millions of lives, he told the crowd of about 500. Fox, who suffers from Parkinson's, said stem cell research can help with that disease as well as other conditions, such as spinal injuries.

"That could be any one of us," he said. "This will benefit humanity in ways that are incalculable. ... We have the opportunity to do some amazing things."

Many of the USF students in Fox's audience weren't even born when Fox first became famous on Family Ties in 1982. They may have been in diapers when Back to the Future made him a megastar.

But thanks to the magic of reruns, some of the students told Fox about their favorite episodes. One told him that hearing that Fox had Parkinson's was almost like hearing about a member of her own family.

Another woman thanked Fox for becoming the nation's most famous advocate for fighting the disease. She's had Parkinson's for 11 years.

Audience members also got a science lesson in stem cells from a USF professor, Dr. Juan Sanchez-Ramos, who explained how the embryonic cells hold promise because they can have the capacity to become any type of cell - nerve, muscle, blood. That means they might one day help to cure a broad array of diseases.

Opponents of stem cell research say it's wrong to use cells from a fertilized embryo, destroying it in the process. They compare it to abortion. Advocates say stem cells used in research are leftover from in-vitro fertilization attempts and would be destroyed anyway.

Faye Armitage, a Jacksonville resident whose 14-year-old son, Jason, was paralyzed in a soccer accident at age 7, told the crowd of her hopes that stem cell research could one day help him.

(http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z276/fayeforcure/JasonCrying.jpg)

Jason Armitage, 14, cries as he listens to his mother, Faye Armitage of Jacksonville, tell a USF audience how he was paralyzed in a soccer accident after colliding with another child at age 7. Armitage is the founder of Cure Paralysis Now, which supports stem cell research.

After Fox was diagnosed with Parkinson's in 1991, he hid the disease from TV cameras for seven years. He put his hands in his pockets, he said Tuesday. He moved a lot, "goofed around" on the set to cover the involuntary movements.

"You just keep moving and you don't get caught," he said.

Fox first knew something was wrong when his left pinky began to twitch. But as the disease progressed, both the Parkinson's and the side effects of his medication became harder to hide.

"It was spinning plates," he said.

When he finally went public in 1998, it was a huge relief. He also learned something else.

"I have a whole new respect for what the relationship is" between him and his fans, he said. "It's not just a business relationship. It's something deeper."

He gave a special thank you to other Parkinson's patients.

"The friendship and support I've gotten from all of you ... is life-changing," he said.

Fox spoke briefly but energetically Tuesday, and rolling in his left foot and shaking in his left hand became more apparent toward the end of the event. Still, he stayed to shake hands, sign copies of his book and pose for photos with fans.

He was feeling pretty good, he said as he walked out. He has been spending a lot of time with his family. "I'm feeling all right," he said. "Better than I thought I would be."

[Last modified September 28, 2004, 23:49:12]

http://www.sptimes.com/2004/09/29/State/Actor_speaks_out_on_s.shtml

Quote from: stjr on January 15, 2010, 11:21:01 PM
The title of this thread should be changed to:
"Thread Administration Proposes Major Subject Shift" from Transportation to Stem Cells.

DING!

...or the second runner up... Passive/aggressive pity party.

Quote from: stjr on January 15, 2010, 11:21:01 PM
The title of this thread should be changed to:
"Thread Administration Proposes Major Subject Shift" from Transportation to Stem Cells.

Wouldn't be the first time Faye has hijacked a thread for her health agenda...  My point was not to go on with a stem cell discussion, as "Frankly mam, I don't give a damn!"  Simply just saying perhaps perception, perhaps religion, perhaps a sense of guilt or morality, or perhaps a bit of misinformation, either way the only one likely to vote based on SPITE seems to be the one posting all of the hate threads.

Can't you just see Crenshaw, or Mica, running down to the capitol building to vote... just to piss Faye off? Wow, talk about visions of grandeur.

Faye finds it interesting that back in the 1970s the swine flu broke out under Republican Gerald Ford, then under another Republican president, George Bush Jr. I'm not saying she thinks the Republicans are to blame, just that it's an interesting coincidence.

"Seven years ago, he used stem cells to make paralyzed rats walk again. Next year his stem cell elixir will be injected into humans.  QUESTION: What's next? "

ANSWER: Humans that grow tails and eat cheese!

MEANWHILE: the Lakeland newspaper is reporting the beginning of the HSR melt-down between Orlando and Tampa --- EXACTLY as I said it would happen:
http://www.theledger.com/article/20100114/NEWS/1145050/1001

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: buckethead on January 16, 2010, 12:09:31 AM

Quote from: stjr on January 15, 2010, 11:21:01 PM
The title of this thread should be changed to:
"Thread Administration Proposes Major Subject Shift" from Transportation to Stem Cells.

DING!

...or the second runner up... Passive/aggressive pity party.

Yup it's pretty amazing how the disappointed face of John Mica gets everyone so riled up, but a kid crying because he is forced to live his life in a wheelchair is no big deal.

buckethead, thanks for putting things in perspective!

TOUCHE! D'Artanion...

OCKLAWAHA
that was spiteful

Quote from: stephendare on January 16, 2010, 12:29:32 AM
The difference is that no one is feeling better because your child was crying, faye.  That would make us monsters, wouldnt it?

Indeed, babying an elected official while showing no compassion at all for a crying child IS monstrous!!

Glad I know REAL people suffering doesn't matter here, or as Pat Robertson says (about Haiti) are punishment from God.

Faye!  Stephen and Ock may enjoy it, but please do the rest of us a favor and don't post anything about Mica on any thread that is not about Mica directly.  Start a thread titled "Why I hate John Mica and why he is a scumbag" or something similar so we can avoid it.

Stephen, I was being VERY sarcastic.  Should have put in a smiley of some sort.  What would be a good smiley to use for sarcasm?     ::)   ;)   >:(

We now return to the show in progress......

Well, with Mr LaHood leading the way, he can follow along in the path the MJ Group has cut! Talk is really cheap and the quickest way to assure people but sooner or later, you have to get past the talk stage and actually get something started............maybe even bring it to fruition! Its past time to do something even if its wrong but we need to get started.........Mr LaHood are you reading?

(http://railroadpictures.net/Locomotives/Diesel/EMD/F59PHI/Amtrak_California/IMG_7180_tn1024.JPG)

It looks like LaHood is going to be a good DOT leader, if Amtrak only had leaders coupled with the Obama Dollars, it would be in much better shape.  Ignoring the opportunity to get problems solved, equipment repaired, and new cars and locomotives ordered for over a year, would earn one a boot about 5 inches up the nether regions if I were "fearless leader..." 

Some of the things Amtrak, could of, should of, would of done?

Immediate recall of technicians to the major shop complexes.

Quantize the goal, and crank up the "bad order" car repairs and rebuilds at a fast clip.

Simultaneously order standard consists of new single level viewliner and hi-level superliner cars from proven plans.

No train should be less then daily - each way, resulting in every tri-weekly train going daily.

All current standalone daily train routes, would get a second train, running an approximate 12 hour flip schedule.

All remaining Am-shacks should be closed, and where ever possible, historic downtown stations and terminals used.

GET NEW EQUIPMENT, in broad classes, to allow for more flexibility and customization of train consists, for example:

Order large fleet of MPXpress locomotives for shorter (eastern and midwestern) routes.

Order large fleet of F59PHI locomotives for long distance trains.

(http://www.brookvilleequipment.com/images/newspics/NSBatteryLocoLG.jpg)
Order fleet of Co-Generation/Hybrid Brookville BL20GH locomotives for testing in various services.

(http://inlinethumb18.webshots.com/14865/2132669450104969885S600x600Q85.jpg)
Research, development, engineering and ordering of new baggage-crew dormitory cars.

(http://inlinethumb12.webshots.com/39051/2890458110104969885S600x600Q85.jpg)
Research, development, engineering and ordering of new dome-lounge cars for east coast trains.

Research, development, engineering and ordering of new super dome (full length) dome cars for western trains.

Research, development, engineering and ordering of new round ended, skytop observation - lounge cars.

Research, development, engineering and ordering of a new class of grill cars.

(http://inlinethumb07.webshots.com/2502/2264892970104969885S600x600Q85.jpg)
Research, development, engineering and ordering of new round end, tavern - theater lounge - observation cars.


OCKLAWAHA