Anyone driving down Union St has seen this camp, it has grown slowly but surely. Two weeks ago when I drove by there was around sixty, seventy people lining the block, trash, bags, blankets, clothes, bottles, and cans lined both sides of the street. I think this started as a feeding station and now has become a true camp. I cannot imagine why the city does nothing about this, I saw three people urinating when I drove by, and I am sure there is even worse on that block based on the number of people and long term situation. People are going to get sick. If I could figure out how to post pictures here I would. How can downtown progress with this type of activity? All cities have homelessness and crime issues, but most have not turned over the city completely. With all the money these different groups and churches spend they could pool their money and build something really worthy, a day center that could provide training, shelter, and food which is what is really needed to get people off the street.
The problem is a lot of the homeless population don't want to go to a shelter. When hit up for money, I will normally offer to take them to the Trinity Rescue Mission, in which they refuse most of the time. I've found that the majority don't want to change their situation. You can build all the shelters you want but you can't force them to go in and change there situation.
Uptown, you don't need to worry about that camp anymore. We just left the downtown Main library and they have all moved there instead.
wow...so you mean that the shelters have enough capacity to handle all the homeless on the coldest night of te year...and that all these people choose to stay outside?
Quote from: uptowngirl on January 09, 2010, 09:04:05 AM
Anyone driving down Union St has seen this camp, it has grown slowly but surely. Two weeks ago when I drove by there was around sixty, seventy people lining the block, trash, bags, blankets, clothes, bottles, and cans lined both sides of the street. I think this started as a feeding station and now has become a true camp. I cannot imagine why the city does nothing about this, I saw three people urinating when I drove by, and I am sure there is even worse on that block based on the number of people and long term situation. People are going to get sick. If I could figure out how to post pictures here I would. How can downtown progress with this type of activity? All cities have homelessness and crime issues, but most have not turned over the city completely. With all the money these different groups and churches spend they could pool their money and build something really worthy, a day center that could provide training, shelter, and food which is what is really needed to get people off the street.
Uptowngirl you forgot the main amenity of the Julia Street Camp, cardboard boxes. Collapsed cardboard boxes line the streets on both sides. It is absolutely beyond me how a city could allow this to take place. I'm not without feeling or lack the human touch, but these facilities should be located outside the city core in industrialized areas. If we were gonna host a Superbowl next week that camp wouldn't be there. This city need to pretend a Superbowl is coming every week so we can move toward a viable downtown.
Is this District 9? ;)
Quote from: tufsu1 on January 09, 2010, 02:36:31 PM
wow...so you mean that the shelters have enough capacity to handle all the homeless on the coldest night of te year...and that all these people choose to stay outside?
(http://endicottstudio.typepad.com/endicott_redux/images/2007/09/28/butterly_in_blue.jpg)
"HURRY UP EPHRAIM, GET RID OF HER, SHE JUST AIN'T NORMAL"
The shelters don't even get close to holding all of the homeless. In many cases, alcoholics, druggies, hookers, mentally challenged and in some cases gross physically challenged people are NOT WELCOME.
We need three things in our city...
1. A new outlook on our homeless based on STREET PSYCHOLOGY, getting to them WHERE THEY ARE, without putting a bunch of strings and demands on them. They are homeless for a reason, and most are there because they can't cope with simple rules and regulations.
2. Rather then remain a city that either ignores them, or warehouses them, why not the first city to reach out with a plethora of programs for a hand up. Start with basics, clean accessible bathrooms, showers, beds. Don't RULE THEM "BACK TO NORMAL," RATHER, "LOVE THEM BACK," for many of them it will be the first love they have ever had.
3. Decentralize our warehouses, get them out of the core and in the edge of industrial neighborhoods where day labor is common. Make the shelters spartan, but more home like, and most important of all, 24/7/365, THE DOORS ARE OPEN and the COFFEE IS ON. There is ALWAYS someone to talk to, a book to read and oh BTW, the TV is on. OCKLAWAHAAt least 2 of the 5 MJ guys have lived on the Street, we speak from experience
Downtown homelessness is just another symptom of an empty downtown. Add more residences downtown and the homeless move out of the empty buildings and deserted streets. The situation is no different in other parts of town with empty houses and crime. Add the residents and businesses, and you will see a change in the homelessness downtown. With more money downtown, you can afford all the wish list items above, but you have to take back the streets with residents and businesses, and we're not there.
I do not even pretend to be an expert in this, but the whole camp is SHOCKING, I mean I slowed down with jaw dropped. Most people just kept zooming by, but I could not even believe I was seeing this right downtown, AND across the street from the school. Not only is this unhealthy for the campers, but what about the students? I agree, shame on the city for allowing this, I mean really WTH?
Quote from: uptowngirl on January 09, 2010, 09:04:05 AM
Anyone driving down Union St has seen this camp, it has grown slowly but surely. Two weeks ago when I drove by there was around sixty, seventy people lining the block, trash, bags, blankets, clothes, bottles, and cans lined both sides of the street. I think this started as a feeding station and now has become a true camp. I cannot imagine why the city does nothing about this, I saw three people urinating when I drove by, and I am sure there is even worse on that block based on the number of people and long term situation. People are going to get sick. If I could figure out how to post pictures here I would. How can downtown progress with this type of activity? All cities have homelessness and crime issues, but most have not turned over the city completely. With all the money these different groups and churches spend they could pool their money and build something really worthy, a day center that could provide training, shelter, and food which is what is really needed to get people off the street.
I agree wholeheartedly "Uptown Girl" with what you're saying. However, it's easier said than done. Number one, funding has been cut dramatically for just about all social service agencies in these hard economic times; especially federal and state funding. Number two, the big Agencies, i.e., United Way, Salvation Army etc., who rake in millions upon millions and sometimes billions of dollars a year don't spend their money wisely. I know this because I run a social service agency in West Central Florida. Our budget is extremely small compared to those "big brother" peer agencies, and it's sad when people come complaining to me because I do a better job than they do (of finding resources to help them out of their homelessness). So it's a mixture of problems that are keeping social agencies from helping in the right way. In my opinion the biggest problem is the large agencies, again such as the "Sally" (salvation army) and United Way, are not spending the money the right way. I have said all along in our agency's point papers, etc. that all social agencies should band together statewide and nationwide and attack the homelessness problem headon, and build big shelters, not just for food and clothing, but shelters to attack the problems that cause homelessness such as drug use, drug abuse, mental problems, health problems, disabilities, alcohol use, alcohol abuse, financial problems, family problems, teen family problems, etc. to better assist people to hopefully permanently come out of homelessness. I respect all of your views regarding homelessness, but the reasons why people are homeless are much deeper than meets the eye, and unfortunately there is not a magin wand to wave and instantaneously wave it and homelessness disappears.
"HU"
Quote from: stephenc on January 09, 2010, 10:35:51 AM
The problem is a lot of the homeless population don't want to go to a shelter. When hit up for money, I will normally offer to take them to the Trinity Rescue Mission, in which they refuse most of the time. I've found that the majority don't want to change their situation. You can build all the shelters you want but you can't force them to go in and change there situation.
In all due respect stephenc, all that the present shelters will do is feed, clothe, and give them a cot for a night and then send them on their way. Believe it or not, the majority of the homeless want out, but you can't get out if you're beset with social problems and ills that keep you within that vicious neverending circle. As I stated in my last post, we need shelters or transient centers that can attack those social problems as well as provide shelter, food, etc. and help to permanently end homelessness and not provide only temporary solutions.
"HU"
The homeless problem in this city is out of control. Whenever I have out of town guests visit they are always shocked at the number of homless they see around downtown. I know every large city has an issue with homeless, but our problem is out of control.
Glad I'm moving to Ft Lauderdale..............
Quote from: heights unknown on January 10, 2010, 11:17:22 AM
Quote from: stephenc on January 09, 2010, 10:35:51 AM
The problem is a lot of the homeless population don't want to go to a shelter. When hit up for money, I will normally offer to take them to the Trinity Rescue Mission, in which they refuse most of the time. I've found that the majority don't want to change their situation. You can build all the shelters you want but you can't force them to go in and change there situation.
In all due respect stephenc, all that the present shelters will do is feed, clothe, and give them a cot for a night and then send them on their way. Believe it or not, the majority of the homeless want out, but you can't get out if you're beset with social problems and ills that keep you within that vicious neverending circle. As I stated in my last post, we need shelters or transient centers that can attack those social problems as well as provide shelter, food, etc. and help to permanently end homelessness and not provide only temporary solutions.
"HU"
Oh I believe that most want out and if they look they have options. I can't speak with other centers but the Trinity Rescue Mission has programs for the homeless. You can go through a 3-6 month program downtown and then go to a rehab center in St. Johns County for 6 months. They then put you into transitional housing in town and help find you employee. With all that assistance, people still quit and go back to where they started. I know some people unfortunately have issues with the Christian environment (which I think is the only true way to fix their situation), but I'm sure there are other centers that have programs without the spiritual impact.
Anyone who thinks most homeless people want to be off the street is absolutely positively out of touch with reality. I agree with Ock on most of all he said. I would change one statement, some can't deal with simple rules and regulations, but many simply will not. In speaking with people that I know well from all classes and backgrounds, I know of many homeless people that leave warm beds to sleep under overpasses and be in the street.
Regardless of the reasons behind homelessness, I think most of us agree get the folks out of the core where we can help the ones who truly want to be helped and let the others do what they choose to and that is to get whatever it is they want from the system. This way some of us win. We create an environment that's better for them and a clean downtown hopefully to grow a large residential district.
Quote from: tpot on January 10, 2010, 12:55:25 PM
The homeless problem in this city is out of control. Whenever I have out of town guests visit they are always shocked at the number of homless they see around downtown. I know every large city has an issue with homeless, but our problem is out of control.
Glad I'm moving to Ft Lauderdale..............
sorry to give you the bad news, but Ft. Liquordale has the same problems: http://blog.timsmith.com/2010/01/07/vagrant-feeding-coming-to-your-area.aspx?ref=rss
Karl, ur right. As I said in my post every large city has an issue with homeless. In my opinion Jacksonville's problem is way out of control. I am in downtown Lauderdale all the time and I have never seen it even remotely as bad as it is in Jacksonville.
Thanks for posting the article though...............a good read.
the Mayor was on the radio a few weeks ago and this issue was discussed...he pointed out that the social service agencies located downtown in the first place because there were few people (i.e., residents) to say no...moving these agencies from downtown now would take 2 things:
1. Money to relocate them
2. An area of town for the agencies to go....anybody want them in their neighborhood?
But the reality is that most cities have a very similar problem....the difference is that we don't have enough street activity...think about it, how prevalent is the homeless problem during ArtWalk or JazzFest?
I certainly don't have answers, but compassion goes a long way. I think we've made great strides as a city when we quit blaming the homeless for being homeless.
It now costs $25 (maybe more) to get a replacement ID. So if you've lost yours, you can't get work to earn your ID, you can't get an ID to get any work. No money, no food, no shelter. Is the city so desperate for a few dollars that it would hit the most vulnerable this way? If you want your people to work, give them free or very low cost IDs. Just a start.
Rather than building more shelters or programs, if we just stream-lined the steps that we know they must go through, many of them could try to help themselves first which would benefit everyone.
GET RID OF THE HIGH ID CHARGE. Help hungry people find work by getting out of their way.
Quotethink about it, how prevalent is the homeless problem during ArtWalk or JazzFest?
Exactly my point, you don't see them when there are lots of people on the street, when doors are open and activity is abound around downtown. I never see them as well when there are events, far and few between, downtown on the streets. They tend to get away from crowds.
HIGH ID costs? Are these people citizens of the state of Florida? As of 2010, it now takes proof of residence and a social security card for onsite IDs from the State. So most homeless have none of this, and identity is important, period, so getting an ID card for someone who lives as a nomad deserves a higher price, there is more cost associated with getting the right identification for the person.
Giving someone the wrong identification could land that agency in hot water with authorities.
Quote from: stephenc on January 10, 2010, 01:31:31 PM
Quote from: heights unknown on January 10, 2010, 11:17:22 AM
Quote from: stephenc on January 09, 2010, 10:35:51 AM
The problem is a lot of the homeless population don't want to go to a shelter. When hit up for money, I will normally offer to take them to the Trinity Rescue Mission, in which they refuse most of the time. I've found that the majority don't want to change their situation. You can build all the shelters you want but you can't force them to go in and change there situation.
In all due respect stephenc, all that the present shelters will do is feed, clothe, and give them a cot for a night and then send them on their way. Believe it or not, the majority of the homeless want out, but you can't get out if you're beset with social problems and ills that keep you within that vicious neverending circle. As I stated in my last post, we need shelters or transient centers that can attack those social problems as well as provide shelter, food, etc. and help to permanently end homelessness and not provide only temporary solutions.
"HU"
Oh I believe that most want out and if they look they have options. I can't speak with other centers but the Trinity Rescue Mission has programs for the homeless. You can go through a 3-6 month program downtown and then go to a rehab center in St. Johns County for 6 months. They then put you into transitional housing in town and help find you employee. With all that assistance, people still quit and go back to where they started. I know some people unfortunately have issues with the Christian environment (which I think is the only true way to fix their situation), but I'm sure there are other centers that have programs without the spiritual impact.
Most don't have the spiritual impact, and don't have the resources to attack the root causes of homelessness. Trinity seems to be one out of a million if this is true. Nothing like that in my neck of the woods.
"HU"
Quote from: Ocklawaha on January 10, 2010, 12:02:03 AM
Quote from: tufsu1 on January 09, 2010, 02:36:31 PM
wow...so you mean that the shelters have enough capacity to handle all the homeless on the coldest night of te year...and that all these people choose to stay outside?
(http://endicottstudio.typepad.com/endicott_redux/images/2007/09/28/butterly_in_blue.jpg)
"HURRY UP EPHRAIM, GET RID OF HER, SHE JUST AIN'T NORMAL"
The shelters don't even get close to holding all of the homeless. In many cases, alcoholics, druggies, hookers, mentally challenged and in some cases gross physically challenged people are NOT WELCOME.
We need three things in our city...
1. A new outlook on our homeless based on STREET PSYCHOLOGY, getting to them WHERE THEY ARE, without putting a bunch of strings and demands on them. They are homeless for a reason, and most are there because they can't cope with simple rules and regulations.
2. Rather then remain a city that either ignores them, or warehouses them, why not the first city to reach out with a plethora of programs for a hand up. Start with basics, clean accessible bathrooms, showers, beds. Don't RULE THEM "BACK TO NORMAL," RATHER, "LOVE THEM BACK," for many of them it will be the first love they have ever had.
3. Decentralize our warehouses, get them out of the core and in the edge of industrial neighborhoods where day labor is common. Make the shelters spartan, but more home like, and most important of all, 24/7/365, THE DOORS ARE OPEN and the COFFEE IS ON. There is ALWAYS someone to talk to, a book to read and oh BTW, the TV is on.
OCKLAWAHA
At least 2 of the 5 MJ guys have lived on the Street, we speak from experience
This bears another look. That was very well said, and has me feeling a bit choked up.
BTW, "What's so funny 'bout peace, love and understanding?"
Quote from: uptowngirl on January 10, 2010, 10:03:46 AM
I do not even pretend to be an expert in this, but the whole camp is SHOCKING, I mean I slowed down with jaw dropped. Most people just kept zooming by, but I could not even believe I was seeing this right downtown, AND across the street from the school. Not only is this unhealthy for the campers, but what about the students? I agree, shame on the city for allowing this, I mean really WTH?
I used to walk past this on Julia St. every morning on my way to class. I take Pearl St. now, as it is not pleasant to stroll through. Not only do they have that center where they can eat, but two blocks down is the plasma center where a line wrapped around the block can be seen. :-\
Quote from: mtraininjax on January 11, 2010, 09:15:57 AM
Quotethink about it, how prevalent is the homeless problem during ArtWalk or JazzFest?
Exactly my point, you don't see them when there are lots of people on the street, when doors are open and activity is abound around downtown. I never see them as well when there are events, far and few between, downtown on the streets. They tend to get away from crowds.
HIGH ID costs? Are these people citizens of the state of Florida? As of 2010, it now takes proof of residence and a social security card for onsite IDs from the State. So most homeless have none of this, and identity is important, period, so getting an ID card for someone who lives as a nomad deserves a higher price, there is more cost associated with getting the right identification for the person.
Giving someone the wrong identification could land that agency in hot water with authorities.
but it is self-defeating for the city to do this...
[/quote]
I used to walk past this on Julia St. every morning on my way to class. I take Pearl St. now, as it is not pleasant to stroll through. Not only do they have that center where they can eat, but two blocks down is the plasma center where a line wrapped around the block can be seen. :-\
[/quote]
Thanks, I was going to bring this up. The school is right there, the central station is right up the street, and hundreds of cars are going by every hour, so traffic is not going to help. Does anyone really beleive the police are not clearing out the place for Art Walk? Again I am no expert, but I have posted before about cities that have addressed this issue head on. Charlotte took a hardline stance and you will not see homeless camps like this anywhere downtown or in the surrounding urban neighborhoods. They will encourage you to continue your bus trip somewhere else. When did it become the responsibility of our city and tax dollars to care for an influx of peoples from other cities and states? San Luis Obispo (a much smaller town) built a day center outside the city limits and when someone gets off the bus with no where to go, they get a ride to the day center.
Wow uptowngirl...perhaps we should just do a mass relocation of a group of people we deem "lower" than us....that's worked well in history....just ask the Jews of Europe in the 1930's!
Quote from: tufsu1 on January 12, 2010, 08:26:29 AM
Wow uptowngirl...perhaps we should just do a mass relocation of a group of people we deem "lower" than us....that's worked well in history....just ask the Jews of Europe in the 1930's!
Time to invoke Godwins law after that comment.
I too have noticed this on Julia St. Not only is next door to JTA's transit station, but it sits right in the front door of FSCJ. Let's forget about relocation and just enforce keeping the street and sidewalks clear of garbage, cardboard boxes and personal belongings. State and Union are main thouroughfares through Downtown. The city should at least be enforcing keeping the area clean.
until city leadership decides to decentralize social services from Downtown, the "too many homeless in DT" issue will always be relevant.
Quote from: tufsu1 on January 12, 2010, 08:26:29 AM
Wow uptowngirl...perhaps we should just do a mass relocation of a group of people we deem "lower" than us....that's worked well in history....just ask the Jews of Europe in the 1930's!
Not at all. But a HUGE, dirty camp at the front doors of our school, next to our central bus station is unacceptable. It is dirty, and unhealhty for everyone period. I threw out a few versions of what a couple of other cities do, a combination of which I personally think would be a long term solution. Create a big day care center outside of an area where monies can be begged to fuel addictions, job training, showers, food, and shelter can be obtained- win/win for everyone. As to cost- limit the support by limiting the immigration into the system here. While it would be totally awesome to have the resources to support any and all who wanted to come, it just isn't feasible. We are overburdened (as a lot of cities with mostly decent weather HA!) are. There has to be a better way than allowing large groups of people to camp out and trash our downtown next to two key areas (our school and our transit center). I dunno maybe you are right, maybe it does not matter so we should just open up the arena or convention center for them where it is much warmer and has plumbing?
not that I'm bashing JTA, but maybe they collect there because its near the transit center (and the agencies).
Quote from: uptowngirl on January 12, 2010, 08:49:11 AM
Quote from: tufsu1 on January 12, 2010, 08:26:29 AM
Wow uptowngirl...perhaps we should just do a mass relocation of a group of people we deem "lower" than us....that's worked well in history....just ask the Jews of Europe in the 1930's!
Not at all. But a HUGE, dirty camp at the front doors of our school, next to our central bus station is unacceptable. It is dirty, and unhealhty for everyone period. I threw out a few versions of what a couple of other cities do, a combination of which I personally think would be a long term solution. Create a big day care center outside of an area where monies can be begged to fuel addictions, job training, showers, food, and shelter can be obtained- win/win for everyone. As to cost- limit the support by limiting the immigration into the system here. While it would be totally awesome to have the resources to support any and all who wanted to come, it just isn't feasible. We are overburdened (as a lot of cities with mostly decent weather HA!) are. There has to be a better way than allowing large groups of people to camp out and trash our downtown next to two key areas (our school and our transit center). I dunno maybe you are right, maybe it does not matter so we should just open up the arena or convention center for them where it is much warmer and has plumbing?
Just a few misplaced words can make one appear judgmental, even if it is not the case.
I'm guessing the people at the "camps" find their being at that location acceptable. Also, by listing "begging for money to fuel addiction" first, you indicate very little compassion for those who do not fit that description, as well as for those who do, as well as demonstrating ignorance to the reason such endeavors (homeless shelters) are undertaken by good and caring people.
If you want to see a change, try serving those you despise. A day of volunteering at a homeless shelter is an eye opening experience.
Quote from: tufsu1 on January 12, 2010, 08:26:29 AM
Wow uptowngirl...perhaps we should just do a mass relocation of a group of people we deem "lower" than us....that's worked well in history....just ask the Jews of Europe in the 1930's!
that might be a reference to Nazis, reductio ad hitlerum... nice work! +10
might be...but doesn't have to be....there are obviously lots of example throughout history.
^uh oh equivocation -5
ok fine...instead of invoking Godwin's law, I'll repost a portion of my question from the other day.
Quote from: tufsu1 on January 10, 2010, 08:11:15 PM
the Mayor was on the radio a few weeks ago and this issue was discussed...he pointed out that the social service agencies located downtown in the first place because there were few people (i.e., residents) to say no...moving these agencies from downtown now would take 2 things:
1. Money to relocate them
2. An area of town for the agencies to go....anybody want them in their neighborhood?
Any takers?
Put a big combined care center out a Cecil field. No neighbors. It doesn't seem like it's going to be used for much of anything else anyway.
Require all City Council members and their staff to eat lunch in Hemming Plaza at least two days per week. The money for relocation would be found.
Quote from: Dog Walker on January 12, 2010, 11:19:25 AM
Put a big combined care center out a Cecil field. No neighbors. It doesn't seem like it's going to be used for much of anything else anyway.
Didn't you hear...Cecil was just approved as a spaceport!
Riiiiight! And I'm not holding my breath either! ::)
Quote from: stephenc on January 09, 2010, 10:35:51 AM
The problem is a lot of the homeless population don't want to go to a shelter. When hit up for money, I will normally offer to take them to the Trinity Rescue Mission, in which they refuse most of the time. I've found that the majority don't want to change their situation. You can build all the shelters you want but you can't force them to go in and change there situation.
This is very true
Quote from: tufsu1 on January 12, 2010, 08:26:29 AM
Wow uptowngirl...perhaps we should just do a mass relocation of a group of people we deem "lower" than us....that's worked well in history....just ask the Jews of Europe in the 1930's!
Thats just...awsome
Wasn't there a big brouhaha when it was proposed to build a correctional facility at Cecil a few years ago? I'll bet the neighbors would prefer a prison to a homeless facility
Having lived DT for 6 years I don't see the problems with the homeless as a big deal. This is my 'hood and they are my peeps.
QuoteHaving lived DT for 6 years I don't see the problems with the homeless as a big deal. This is my 'hood and they are my peeps.
Amen! Those who raise the stink are the ones who were raised in Mandarin, who never saw the homeless until they came downtown one night and got lost, well WELCOME to Downtown!
What would have happened if every major bank in the US actually collapsed? We almost had the 2nd great depression. What would happen if you, your friends, and your nearest family were kicked out of your home because the money ran out? More then likely, you couldn't get access to your money for months since the court system and the government would be clogged up with distributing trillions of dollars worth of assets from all the major banks.
If that would have happened, a lot of us would be homeless. I don't understand why there is such a large anti-homeless stance in this city when we almost, ourselves, became homeless just a few months ago.
I must not be communicating clearly. I have volunteered at homeless shelters, and also donate money and goods to some of these services. I myself have never been homeless, so won't pretend to understand how that feels, or anything else about the experience. What I do know is the situation is not healthy, not for the homeless people camping there, not for the students, not for anyone utilizing the city buses, and certainly not for a city trying to promote downtown. There has got to be a better way to not only provide some interim relief, but some long term solutions also. The whole situation is not fair to anyone, and IMO is a sad statement about the condition of our city.
We (entire family) were driving thru DT on Main last night, and being one car back from the light that had JUST turned green, this guy runs out from the curb and to the windows of the car in front of us. He drives off, we start to drive, and the same guy tries to jump on our hood to get us to stop!
Uh, NO. Hubby's all "DRIVE! STEP ON IT!", My son is screaming, and I'm just startled - I work DT every day, but that's the difference.
Night and Day, literally.
Quote from: mtraininjax on January 13, 2010, 12:00:15 AM
QuoteHaving lived DT for 6 years I don't see the problems with the homeless as a big deal. This is my 'hood and they are my peeps.
Amen! Those who raise the stink are the ones who were raised in Mandarin, who never saw the homeless until they came downtown one night and got lost, well WELCOME to Downtown!
Thanks, I really appreciate that, being raised in Mandarin myself. Let's just assume all people from one area think exactly how we want them to--with very sheltered views, because, pfft, how could anyone from the suburbs ever see a homeless person in their life? How could they ever feel compassion?
Quote from: uptowngirl on January 13, 2010, 07:12:25 AM
I must not be communicating clearly. I have volunteered at homeless shelters, and also donate money and goods to some of these services. I myself have never been homeless, so won't pretend to understand how that feels, or anything else about the experience. What I do know is the situation is not healthy, not for the homeless people camping there, not for the students, not for anyone utilizing the city buses, and certainly not for a city trying to promote downtown. There has got to be a better way to not only provide some interim relief, but some long term solutions also. The whole situation is not fair to anyone, and IMO is a sad statement about the condition of our city.
Yes, something should be done but we have to be extremely careful in what we do. The last thing I ever want to see is freedoms being taken away just because someone is "homeless". Being homeless isn't fun. Try it one day! For the most part, most of them are harmless. Stinky, yes, but harmless. True some are dangerous and give a threat but as someone here posted before - I had more dangerous situations where people in an expensive SUV nearly sideswiped me off the road.
It's especially worse when people freak out and make it a crime. There are quite a lot of cities out there that make homelessness essentially that - a crime. I remeber an upscale city (beautiful place, wonderful streets, clean, etc) in California which had a gigantic foreclosures. A large portion of the population suddenly found themselves homeless in a city which made sleeping in public areas illegal. Ironically, it was probably those same people who demanded and voted for those laws. Luckily for them, since their voting numbers were huge, the politicians created a law which opened up a parking lot for them to sleep in their cars.
I would rather have my freedom and deal with homeless people then loose my freedoms and have a "perfect" city.
Good post, cityimrov. Any government "solutions" for homelessness must respect individual freedom and responsibility.
Government "solutions" seem to be fine as long as they involve food, shelter, medical and dental care, free personal hygiene items, family services, addiction counseling, and many other services. God forbid we ask that the "homeless" quit defecating in our streets and stop intimidating downtown workers and visitors into giving up a few bucks. We need to respect those "liberties"?
We have every right to stop gatherings of anyone who trash our public places and choose to support addictions through aggressive panhandling. There is shelter provided and we do NOT have to accept the kind of behavior that is occurring daily downtown. To claim some kind of urban cool with bums peeing and crapping in the streets is just silly.
Responsibility works both ways. We have a responsibility to help those that NEED it, and folks have a responsibility to behave in a civil manner. Those that cannot, whether due to addiction, mental health, or just plain antisocial attitudes, must be dealt with in an appropriate manner. That would be medical help for addicts, mental health care for mental illness, and civil or criminal penalties for those that hold no respect or thoughtfulness for other human beings.
Quote from: Cliffs_Daughter on January 13, 2010, 09:25:36 AM
We (entire family) were driving thru DT on Main last night, and being one car back from the light that had JUST turned green, this guy runs out from the curb and to the windows of the car in front of us. He drives off, we start to drive, and the same guy tries to jump on our hood to get us to stop!
Uh, NO. Hubby's all "DRIVE! STEP ON IT!", My son is screaming, and I'm just startled - I work DT every day, but that's the difference.
Night and Day, literally.
Good reason for you to go get a concealed weapons permit and take a safety and self defence course.
NN, I agree that no one has the right to create a public nuisance and support prosecution of those that do. However no one should be forced to receive mental health care unless they are a danger to themselves or others or forced to receive medical treatment unless they carry a contagious disease.
I don't entirely disagree. But I believe that if you have numbed yourself through drugs and/or alcohol so much that you crap yourself while sleeping on your usual park bench then you have a horrible disease. If your mental health state requires you to wear plastic bags all over your body, dance in downtown traffic, or shake your wienie at the female workers trying to eat lunch, you have made the case that you are a danger to yourself or others.
From Wikipedia:
The Florida Mental Health Act of 1971 is commonly known as the "Baker Act" in Florida. It was originally enacted, at least in part, because of widespread instances of elder abuse, in which one or more family members would have another family member committed in order to gain control over their estate prior to their death. Once committed, it was difficult for many of the patients to obtain representation, and they became warehoused until their death. The Florida State Hospital at Chattahoochee, Florida was notorious for housing many such patients.
The Baker Act allows for involuntary examination (what some call emergency or involuntary commitment). It can be initiated by judges, law enforcement officials, physicians or mental health professionals. There must be evidence that the person
* a) has a mental illness (as defined in the Baker Act) and
* b) is a harm to self, harm to others, or self neglectful (as defined in the Baker Act).
Examinations may last up to 72 hours and occur in 100+ Florida Department of Children and Families (DCF; originally Department of Health and Rehabilitative Services, or HRS) designated receiving facilities statewide.
There are many possible outcomes following examination of the patient. This includes the release of the individual to the community (or other community placement), a petition for involuntary inpatient placement (what some call civil commitment), involuntary outpatient placement (what some call outpatient commitment or assisted treatment orders), or voluntary treatment (if the person is competent to consent to voluntary treatment and consents to voluntary treatment). The involuntary outpatient placement language in the Baker Act took effect in 2005.
The act was named for a Florida state representative, Maxine Baker, who had a strong interest in mental health issues, served as chair of a House Committee on mental health, and was the sponsor of the bill.
The nickname of the legislation has led to the term "Baker Act" as a transitive verb, and "Baker Acted" as an intransitive verb, for invoking the Act to force an individual's commitment.
Quote from: Cliffs_Daughter on January 13, 2010, 09:25:36 AM
We (entire family) were driving thru DT on Main last night, and being one car back from the light that had JUST turned green, this guy runs out from the curb and to the windows of the car in front of us. He drives off, we start to drive, and the same guy tries to jump on our hood to get us to stop!
Uh, NO. Hubby's all "DRIVE! STEP ON IT!", My son is screaming, and I'm just startled - I work DT every day, but that's the difference.
Night and Day, literally.
yet I live downtown...have driven many a night down here...and never had anything like this happen
I have said for years that social service orgs needed to change the way they do business or risk the general population turning their backs on the "homeless". If the online responses to news stories, the letters to the editor and the TU rants are any indication, my belief seems to be coming to fruition. Government and social service orgs have allowed the problems to become so rampant that many citizens are just disgusted and fed up. People in the povery business do not want to separate the criminal, addicted and ill from the "down on their luck" because they can apply for more funding with larger numbers. It seems that the more we give, the more money we throw at the problem, the worse it gets. People feel good when throwing food and clothing at at these idividuals but do little to solve the real issues. Why DO shelters throw people out during the day. What good are these structures when sitting empty all day? Why do we continue to feed and cloth people with out any plan to stop the cycle. The only way anyone can gain self esteem is by being productive. We need to ask for something in return for the food, clothing or shelter or it will never be appreciated. We can all remember the lesson of having to spend our own money for something rather than being given the item by our parents. The system is broken and needs to be fixed now.
Government cannot fix this issue. Solutions will have to come from the private sector, and right now the private sector is in the midst of the Great Recession. I would not put stock in anything being resolved until 2011 or 2012 at the earliest. Could be a great campaign issue, if it is made to be one.
I think that there is a point where "helping" becomes "enabling"; as in buying your alcoholic brother more booze or giving him money to do so. I also think that we as a city are way over into the enabling side. Even the word "homeless" is a fuzz word to cover the fact that most of them are without a permanent place to live by choices they have made and continue to make over and over.
During WWI, the French developed a concept called "triage"; dividing in thirds, for deciding how to treat the wounded. Top third were lightly wounded that would recover with minimal help and treatment. Bottom third were probably going to die no matter how much you helped. Middle third was group that was going to die without treatment, but that could be saved with treatment so that's where most of the resources were put.
We need to do the same here.
Quote from: Dog Walker on January 18, 2010, 11:11:59 AM
I think that there is a point where "helping" becomes "enabling"; as in buying your alcoholic brother more booze or giving him money to do so. I also think that we as a city are way over into the enabling side. Even the word "homeless" is a fuzz word to cover the fact that most of them are without a permanent place to live by choices they have made and continue to make over and over.
During WWI, the French developed a concept called "triage"; dividing in thirds, for deciding how to treat the wounded. Top third were lightly wounded that would recover with minimal help and treatment. Bottom third were probably going to die no matter how much you helped. Middle third was group that was going to die without treatment, but that could be saved with treatment so that's where most of the resources were put.
We need to do the same here.
This makes so much sense and would be a great start. Right now in our society, no one will make the tough decisions. There's no personal responsibility, only excuses.
It looks like the city has decided to remove the homeless camp from downtown.
QuoteHomeless chased away; Jacksonville shelter fined
City Rescue Mission says it had no warning of the city's roundup, citation
By Deirdre ConnerStory updated at 12:27 PM on Friday, Jan. 29, 2010EMAILPRINTBLOG THISCOMMENTBuzz up!
Homeless people sleeping near Jacksonville's City Rescue Mission were rounded up Wednesday and Thursday night, and the mission itself has been cited for garbage left on the sidewalks outside its fence.
The mission says it was blindsided by the city's actions, because the few dozen people who sleep outside the mission's New Life Inn, which has been full for months and has seen a 33 percent increase in demand, have been doing so for a long time.
"Rarely from time to time, police would come by and ask them to move on, but never with the kind of intensity that we've seen recently," said Bill Duguid, City Rescue Mission's chief operating officer. "There seems to be a concerted effort at this point to remove people from Julia Street."
Duguid said that some of the "trash" on the sidewalk was actually the personal belongings of homeless people. He said many of the people who slept near the shelter said they did so because they saw it as a "safe zone" where they would not fear violence.
For the last two nights, though, the people who couldn't get a spot at a shelter have been roused in the middle of the night. They were told to keep moving and that they could not linger on the sidewalk near the mission â€" except in the afternoons, when lining up for shelter intake and the evening meal, Duguid said.
The city's citation noted "garbage, trash, rubbish and/or debris." If the mission does not "terminate the conditions" or appeal, it will get a special assessment or lien, but the citation does not say what the amount would be.
Duguid said authorities did not contact the mission in advance, and it wasn't sure what to do to remedy the situation. No one at the mission could remember it previously having been fined by the city for a similar infraction.
"We feel like we’re part of the solution, not part of the problem," he said. "If we weren’t there, there would be 300 more people on the streets of Jacksonville."
The actions come just days after Mayor John Peyton's pledge to do more to remove homeless people from the streets of downtown in anticipation of renovations to Laura Street.
Phone messages left for the mayor's office and sheriff's office have not yet been returned.
http://jacksonville.com/news/2010-01-29/story/homeless_chased_away_jacksonville_shelter_fined (http://jacksonville.com/news/2010-01-29/story/homeless_chased_away_jacksonville_shelter_fined)
JSO's new motto : Cleaning up downtown Jacksonville one homeless camp at a time.
It's about time............the homeless population in downtown JAX is out of control. They have taken over the new Main Library, Hemming Plaza and have set up homeless camps. Now the city needs a plan to deal with the issue. Enforcing code is a start, but they need a plan to relocate these services away from downtown JAX
Code enforcement officers are too busy ticketing cars parked the wrong direction in Riverside.
It is indeed about time!
The Main Library downtown has actually done a really good job of getting the bum problem under control by focusing on behaviors and not allowing big bundles inside. There are scruffy characters in the library, but they are quietly reading and working on the computers, not bathing in the bathrooms or sleeping in the chairs. Security makes regular walks on each floor and enforces the rules. It has made a big difference over the last few months.
Quote from: Ernest Street on January 30, 2010, 09:27:56 AM
Code enforcement officers are too busy ticketing cars parked the wrong direction in Riverside.
lol glad they havnt gotten me
I am not a big fan of walking through the homeless camp on Julia St. on the way to class, but where could they go in the middle of the night after being rounded up? It has not exactly been very warm outside at night.
Apparently the mayor and his staff knows that the reason the homeless and the services are here in the urban core is that those of you who want them out of here now didn’t used to want or care about the urban core so you left it to them and they took it.
The realistic approach is to realize that neither the services nor the homeless are leaving the urban core. The shelters are not “empty†during the day and there never has been enough money thrown at the problem to solve it and never will be.
Food and clothing is given as a life saving and protecting service rather than to solve the problem. Many of the shelters and service orgs do work on solving the problem during the day, which is why I say they are not “emptyâ€, but the resources are just not available to help everyone, and yes, it is true that not everyone wants that help.
Some homeless are beyond the kind of help that would turn them back into what most would consider productive citizens due to mental health issues, some of their own doing perhaps, but mostly not. They need a more intensive and costly kind of help. If you do wish to spend your tax dollars on helping them , then realize that by helping them, you are really helping yourself and your city clean up the urban core. The reasons do not matter, just at least help them.
You can do that by giving support to facilities that truly help and a facility in the urban core that functions as a well run and staffed day center would do that very well. It won’t work on the Southside or Cecil field. It will work here in the Urban core. Just a fact of life.
A well run, all encompassing facility, meaning eating, sleeping, working, learning, health services, etc. type facility in say the Southside would work. I believe that the Salvation Army facility on Beach, for instance, is more or less like that. An all in one facility eliminates the transportation issues and the need to make decisions based on the time and energy it takes to go from one place to another.
But that does not help the issue with the urban core and if you build that new facility on the Southside for instance, you will still have homeless downtown. It is their “home†after all. Remember, it was left to them when no one else really wanted it. The best way to help Downtown is to help them become better as Downtown becomes better.
I am not an expert trained in this field, but the above is simply from observations, many conversations with homeless people and common sense.
Just to play "devils advocate", what happens if a day center is built and people still choose to loiter in Hemming Plaza or the library all day? Will there be documentation of how many people sleeping in shelters are seeking help at the day center vs. continuing to hang out all day on the streets? If the day center is not the magic bullet solution it is being touted as, what next?
One of the difficulties with this is that if someone is an addict, and they are out on the streets, how unimaginably hard would it be to take refuge in a day center versus knowing your addictions can be fueled outside? Nearly impossible I would wager.
How can an organization provide help if several do not want to be helped? It cannot be both ways. We will feed you, and give you a shower and some clothes, and then you can go out and go get your fixes and bum money? It is quite clear that does not work :-\
There are many out there who do not even want to take advantage of the help we have now, because it is too "strict" on their lifestyle. This creates a stigma and makes it even moreso difficult for the ones that truly do want and need help, because they get bundled into the same "category."
You are right, it won't help with the ones that are addicted and want nothing more than to go bum for money to feed that addiction. What percentage is that of the whole? How many of you (just a general you) have complained about some of the homeless using the street as a bathroom, getting into elevators with a smelly homeless person, sitting next to one on a bus, using the library to wash up in? What percentage falls into that catagory? What percentage using the day center will make downtown at least seem much more friendly to outsiders and less a homeless camp?
We can do nothing, we can try some reasonable ideas, and yes, no guarantee that it will solve the entire problem, but it will certainly help. I guess we could gather them all up and put them in a concentration camp of some type a long way away from Downtown. But then, what would that make us?
Throughout histroy, cities have had this segment of the population that did not conform and were living this type of life. Addicts and just different or crazy, it hasn't really changed all that much. The numbers are up overall and the percentage that can be helped is a much higher number than before. All we can do is what we can do. Nothing will eliminate the homeless from downtown 100%. Except of course, removing human civility from the equation. Making the problem surmountable seems to be what we are really talking about here.
I'm thinking the Mayor might grant me the funds to construct and manage a "Mandatory Rehabilitation and Jobs Training Facility".
The cops could round up the homeless and they could come learn to become Societal Contributors.
It's simple really; They come and do work at the facility, are provided food and shelter, and may leave as soon as they can prove that they have a legal residence and the means to provide for it.
Who's with me?
(http://www.limitstogrowth.org/WEB-Graphics/FresnoHomelessCamp.jpg)
Think it's just an "America Problem?" So Ock posts another photo from Colombia? NOT! The Photo is in FRESNO, CALIFORNIA! The problem is nationwide.
The ones that I'm most concerned with are the hookers, ho's, call girls, guys, etc. and the druggies. In both cases neither group can "trust" the authorities. They have been rejected, abused, used, left to die... Some have been drugged, shot up, bound gagged and forced to be a human service station for perverse sexual desires. In these conditions, which usually start in early childhood, the authorities are the ones that bust up families, smash daddys head, arrest uncle Peter, etc. We should not expect them to embrace that which they have been conditioned to fear and hate.
OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: braeburn on January 31, 2010, 01:33:41 PM
One of the difficulties with this is that if someone is an addict, and they are out on the streets, how unimaginably hard would it be to take refuge in a day center versus knowing your addictions can be fueled outside? Nearly impossible I would wager.
How can an organization provide help if several do not want to be helped? It cannot be both ways. We will feed you, and give you a shower and some clothes, and then you can go out and go get your fixes and bum money? It is quite clear that does not work :-\
There are many out there who do not even want to take advantage of the help we have now, because it is too "strict" on their lifestyle. This creates a stigma and makes it even moreso difficult for the ones that truly do want and need help, because they get bundled into the same "category."
Certain mentally ill people find it especially difficult to be around so many people. Social phobias play into a great deal. You can't just say "they don't want to." Perhaps, they are emotionally incapable.
& I don't know what is to be done about that.
I hear it referred to as a "drop-in center."
I doubt it will be a rehabilitation center for addiction.
I lay no claim to being on any side of any fence here, but a drop-in or a part time facility sounds to me like it would simply enable the issue and continue with no resolution.
explain "enable."
perhaps it is enabling humanity
Enable = helping someone continue living a lifestyle that would otherwise kill them or make them stop living that lifestyle.
Sometimes "enabling" them is needed just to keep them alive so we can then try to "enable" them to help themselves become productive citizens again. All of it can be seen as "just enabling" if you want it to be.
Ever get the feeling that someone is watching?
QuoteWhosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.
Quote from: buckethead on February 02, 2010, 10:01:30 AM
Ever get the feeling that someone is watching?
long as its not through a high powered rifle lol