I've been living in Riverside for a couple of months now and I am rather enjoying it. The neighborhood is a great change from the 'burbs and I love being close to five points but I have one question. What is the deal with the freaking train that's blowing its whistle at 4:30 AM everyday? This thing is driving me nuts. It wakes me up and then I can never get back to sleep. Is there not some sort of noise ordinance to prohibit this?
FEDERAL LAW:QuoteBefore finalizing the rule, FRA held public meetings around the country and solicited comment from scores of affected communities and stakeholders. Based upon the voluminous input received, FRA published an Interim Final Rule in December 2003, refining its original proposal and inviting additional public comment. The final federal train horn rule became effective on June 24, 2005.
The rule provides the first opportunity ever for many local communities around the country affected by train horn noise the option of silencing horns by establishing quiet zones.
Sounding the Locomotive Horn: Under the Train Horn Rule, locomotive engineers must sound train horns for a minimum of 15 seconds, and a maximum of 20 seconds, in advance of all public grade crossings, except:
* If a train is traveling faster than 45mph, engineers will not sound the horn until it is within ¼ mile of the crossing, even if the advance warning is less than 15 seconds.
* If a train stops in close proximity to a crossing, the horn does not have to be sounded when the train begins to move again.
* There is a "good faith" exception for locations where engineers can’t precisely estimate their arrival at a crossing.
Wherever feasible, train horns must be sounded in a standardized pattern of 2 long, 1 short and 1 long. The horn must continue to sound until the lead locomotive or train car occupies the grade crossing
OCKLAWAHA
Just be thankful that we can go wherever we need to in our neighborhood or jump on the interstate to go elsewhere and not ever have to cross RR tracks. They can't claim that in San Marco. The trains are an absolute nightmare in San marco and block up traffic at all hours of the day (especially when you have someplace you need to be).
I do agree that they lean on the horn sometimes a little longer than necessary. I believe the conductor is thinking "if I'm up at 4:30 AM, everyone else should be as well".
Quote from: floridaforester on December 26, 2009, 10:20:48 PM
Just be thankful that we can go wherever we need to in our neighborhood or jump on the interstate to go elsewhere and not ever have to cross RR tracks. They can't claim that in San Marco. The trains are an absolute nightmare in San marco and block up traffic at all hours of the day (especially when you have someplace you need to be).
I do agree that they lean on the horn sometimes a little longer than necessary. I believe the conductor is thinking "if I'm up at 4:30 AM, everyone else should be as well".
Could be floridaforester, but the conductor does NOT sound the horn, he serves as the "captain" of the train, does some switching (formerly a Brakman's job), he does assist the engineer in keeping an eye on the road and the train (formerly a firemans job), he also does all of the paper work and handles orders.
In spite of all of these responsibilities he is paid less then the engineer! Sort of a thankless job, which railroads are known for. The lowly track gang or "Gandy Dancers" even have a poem about this stuff:
I'm not allowed to run the train
The whistle I can't blow
I'm not the one who designates
How far the train will go
I'm not allowed to blow the steam
Or even ring the bell
But let the damn thing jump the track
And see who catches hell.
BTW, the City of South Jacksonville, filed suit against DUVAL and the COJ over the inability to get across the FEC RY tracks. They demanded an overpass or underpass but the hearings were tabled... THAT was in 1923!
My how progressive we are.
OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: Ocklawaha on December 26, 2009, 04:20:02 PM
FEDERAL LAW:
Quote
The rule provides the first opportunity ever for many local communities around the country affected by train horn noise the option of silencing horns by establishing quiet zones.
OCKLAWAHA
So I'm guessing the area just north of Gilmore on Stockton isn't considered a "Quiet Zone"?
As I understand the "quiet zone" rules, the local government must pay to improve the crossings - gates in all four lanes, barriers to prevent cars from going on the wrong side, and other stuff. These are expensive, and have to be done at every crossing in the "zone". Depending on what area you want to "quiet" would determine how many crossings. If the area northeast of Edgewood, it looks like there's 4 crossings - Willowbranch, then a long gap to King, then in quick succession Rosselle and Phyllis. Continuing past I-10 are Stockton and Edison. Going the other way, are Willowbranch, Post and McDuff, and Plymouth (FSCJ). San Marco is even worse. With the City's tough financial situation, I don't see them spending money on quiet zones - unless perhaps there are special taxing districts, so those who benefit from the quiet actually pay for it.
A-Finn, You'll get used to the train horns after a while. Relax. I've lived in Jacksonville for most of my life, somehow always within hearing distance of train crossings. Now, it's the sound of home and somehow sort of reassuring when lying in bed half asleep. It's a cold weather sound too, since the horn sound travels farther in cold air.
Is that The Amtrack on Stockton or nearby blowing between 5:20-5:40 am almost every morning?
Which brings up another point that RAP, and other Civic Groups and private citizens should do, let's all write Amtrak and ask them to send those 2 trains through here at better hours. Move the trains 4-12 hours apart, then at least we would have train connections to the rest of Florida at differing times of the day. As it is the Silver Meteor and Silver Star run back to back only 2 hours and 28 minutes apart, then nothing else southbound until the next day.
7:15 am is not an acceptable time to service our city on these southbound runs, considering the next (and only other) train is right behind it at 9:28. Why not 10:00 am and 11:55 pm Southbound? arrivals in Tampa/Miami in the late afternoon and early morning with nearly a 12 hour spread. When the Palmetto (now turned back to NYC at Savannah) gets restored to Jax and Florida, it could then assume the overnight and one of the others could move to an early am south schedule again. We would then have SB departures at M/L 7:30 am, 10:00am, 11:55pm.
Okay, maybe it sounds complex to a novice but it's really quite simple. Northbound the same two trains come through at 4:16 pm and 7:40 pm.
These times do not include the Auto-Train which makes no passenger stop here.
OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: Ocklawaha on December 26, 2009, 11:00:31 PM
I'm not allowed to run the train
The whistle I can't blow
I'm not the one who designates
How far the train will go
I'm not allowed to blow the steam
Or even ring the bell
But let the damn thing jump the track
And see who catches hell.
BTW THANK YOU OCK for this. My family has been railroad for as long as I remember. We have an embroidered plaque with this on it in my parents house and I smile every time I read it. That saying has been around for as long as my father can remember. And all too true.
Quote from: A-Finnius on December 27, 2009, 11:25:56 AM
So I'm guessing the area just north of Gilmore on Stockton isn't considered a "Quiet Zone"?
No. I feel your pain too some nights in Riverside. You do get used to it (even in a house with original windows)
Lived in Avondale on Edgewood for 10 years, the horns sound louder in the winter due to no leaves on trees, so pray we get summer soon. I love the sound of train horns and I want them to be louder.
yep it takes a while but now i rarely even notice it, although i will admit, i am one of the lucky ones to have an old 8 foot fence, but that doesn't stop the daily morning roosevelt slam on brakes crash sounds. Still worries me when i hear it.
I like the sound of the whistle blowing as well. I think it adds charm and character to the neighborhood.
I'm just not a fan of the 4:30 AM whistle that blows for five minutes every morning for the past week.
I use to live on Ernest near King and let me tell you the first month or so I was awaken several times in the night... fact is, you'll get use to it. But as some have already stated it's law that they signal as they are passing through any crossing. In fact you will get so use to it that during the daytime when your awake and at home you'll know what time it is just by the sound of the trains passing.
I do agree that they lean on the horn sometimes a little longer than necessary.
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My dear,sharp Grandmother lived at the Florida Christian Apartments on Edgewood.............she said that the conductor had a girlfriend in the neighborhood and he wanted to impress her with a special 'hello'.
I had the same problem and there's nothing that can be done about it as they have to blow the whistle at every crossing and there's numerous ones in the area. I finally became able to sleep through it. Good luck and I agree with you that it's an unnecessary nuisance. At that hour, it's dark and the train has it's lights on. If one cannot see the lights as they stop at the crossing, they shouldn't be driving or walking.
That damn train is so annoying at 5am. I hear them all day, but that particular one is just obnoxious, I know the exact one you're talking about. I thought I was the only one who noticed it, but apparently not. I live at the very end of Cherry St., I'm as far as you can get from the tracks without going swimming, and it still wakes me up. Feels like it rattles the windows. I don't know if it's actually louder, or if the neighborhood is just quieter at that hour, but either way it's awful.
How many cars are really out at that hour anyway? Ock, how does one go about making a crossing into one of those "quiet zones" you mentioned?
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on January 15, 2010, 11:56:56 AM
That damn train is so annoying at 5am. I hear them all day, but that particular one is just obnoxious, I know the exact one you're talking about. I thought I was the only one who noticed it, but apparently not. I live at the very end of Cherry St., I'm as far as you can get from the tracks without going swimming, and it still wakes me up. Feels like it rattles the windows. I don't know if it's actually louder, or if the neighborhood is just quieter at that hour, but either way it's awful.
How many cars are really out at that hour anyway? Ock, how does one go about making a crossing into one of those "quiet zones" you mentioned?
Thank you. This train is highly annoying and I have yet to get used it. It still wakes me up 2 - 3 times a week. If you're being bothered by it down by the end of Cherry St then you can only imagine what it's like up here by Gilmore and Stockton.
I rarely hear one at any other time of the day but the one that comes through between 4:00 and 5:00am lays on it's whistle like there was a damn body tied to the tracks.
Maybe Ock can answer this question. If I recall, European trains have a higher pitched horn or whistle that they don't blow as long as American trains do. It doesn't seem nearly as loud and disturbing.
Maybe our horn blowing requirements are a hold over from when there might be wandering livestock on the tracks.
Maybe if they didn't blow their horns at all we could get a little Darwinian action on the idiots who go around the arms.
This might be of interest: http://www.fra.dot.gov/downloads/FromOldSite/pdforphan/floridaban.pdf
Quote from: Lunican on January 16, 2010, 01:00:44 PM
This might be of interest: http://www.fra.dot.gov/downloads/FromOldSite/pdforphan/floridaban.pdf
LOL, that report says that the bans were only applicable if;
QuoteAll affected highway-rail grade crossings are required to
be equipped with crossing gates, flashing lights, bells, and
special highway advance warning signs.
So with all of that, the rate of accidents still went up with no train horn. So translation, some idiots ran the crossing anyway and got hit. AFAIC, that's darwinism at its finest, and no reason to get me up at 5am.
Okay gang, the old railroad "hippie" will attempt to educate you on some of the finer points of railroading, warnings and greetings. Perhaps you'll find some comfort in this, at least you'll understand what is being said, and who is saying what.
The horn is REQUIRED on the train, and not by any whim of the engineer alone. What is generally not known is that the horn is "speaking" a railroaders language, and every note has meaning. (well at least 90% of the time anyway). Here are just a few:
Sound Indication
Succession of
short sounds Used when an emergency exists, or persons or livestock are on the track. When crews on other trains hear this signal, they must stop until it is safe to proceed.
= When train is stopped. The air brakes are applied and pressure is equalized.
= = Train releases brakes and proceeds.
o o Acknowledgment of any signal not otherwise provided for.
o o o When train is stopped: means backing up, or acknowledgment of a hand signal to back up.
o o o o A request for a signal to be given or repeated if not understood.
= o o o Instruction for flagman to protect rear of train.
= = = = The flagman may return from west or south.
= = = = = The flagman may return from east or north.
= = o = Train is approaching public crossings at grade with engine in front. Signal starts not less than one quarter mile before reaching the crossing, if distance permits. If distance does not permit, signal starts soon enough before the crossing to provide warning. Signal is prolonged or repeated until the engine occupies the crossing. This signal is used to warn employees when the view is restricted.
o = Inspect the brake system for leaks or sticking brakes.Quote from: north miami on January 04, 2010, 03:20:49 PM
I do agree that they lean on the horn sometimes a little longer than necessary.
As you can see, it's not by choice, this is by no means the "complete" language either, as there are probably about another 20 codes in the book on most railroads. They are not only warnings, to they confirm movements, orders, requests etc... to train crews, and crews on the ground for safety purposes, (and some by LAW). In the event you happen to be at the long end of 80 cars of freight, waiting on a dark stormy siding for Amtrak to pass, and your radio set goes out in the rain... Your still up to the minute on what is going on. QuoteMy dear,sharp Grandmother lived at the Florida Christian Apartments on Edgewood.............she said that the conductor had a girlfriend in the neighborhood and he wanted to impress her with a special 'hello'.
Completely possible, but the tradition would be "oo" as an answer to a signal not otherwise listed... Ever wonder where the Red Light District started? Follow the lanterns! How about your son or daughters X-O-X-O? Follow the railroad! The old "Shave and a Haircut" whistle is usually reserved for children waving, otherwise it's "oo". Quote from: valdetour on January 04, 2010, 04:20:26 PM
I had the same problem and there's nothing that can be done about it as they have to blow the whistle at every crossing and there's numerous ones in the area. At that hour, it's dark and the train has it's lights on. If one cannot see the lights as they stop at the crossing, they shouldn't be driving or walking.
Good point, and you REALLY don't want to start down the slippery slope of wiping out whistles, because right behind that comes law suits, and gate crashers. Some of what you are hearing isn't even the horn directly, rather it's the doppler effect on the horn sounds as the train passes your location, the same effect is playing hell bouncing off of buildings and walls, but I doubt we'll see a movement to remove those either. Just remember a train horn sounds so much sweeter then churning metal, crushing bones and shattering glass. Quote from: Dog Walker on January 16, 2010, 10:46:08 AM
Maybe Ock can answer this question. If I recall, European trains have a higher pitched horn or whistle that they don't blow as long as American trains do. It doesn't seem nearly as loud and disturbing.
Maybe our horn blowing requirements are a hold over from when there might be wandering livestock on the tracks.
Maybe if they didn't blow their horns at all we could get a little Darwinian action on the idiots who go around the arms.
True, in the old days the EU steam locomotives used a warning device known as a "Peanut Whistle." Some of the famous and better researched WWII movies such as "THE TRAIN" or "SCHINDLERS LIST" have cameos of EU steam and peanut whistles. The history channel can't tell the difference and almost always mixes the steam trains up in it's documentary's, so you MIGHT hear a "Santa Fe" peanut whistle... (mostly because they are stupid and can't tell a 20' foot, 4 spoked wheel box car, from a 8 wheel, 250,000 pound, 90 foot long, Norfolk Southern, hydra-cushioned, box car.)
If you get up to Charlotte, Tampa, New Orleans, Dallas, Memphis, Little Rock, Houston or Baltimore, ask your streetcar motorman to demonstrate the air horn. These soft horns were used on Interurban Railways throughout the nation until General Motors killed them.
As for being a hold-over from the wandering cattle days? Uh, they STILL wander in much of the American Southwest. But the reality is right after the first successful warning sounded, some clever telegraph? operator caught the idea that we can use this to talk between engine and crews. So while radio wasn't common until the 20Th century, the railroads had a form of it from the 1830's. Even those codes borrowed from the steamships and riverboats, and today the USPS uses the three "ooo" before backing trucks! Quote from: A-Finnius on January 16, 2010, 09:49:43 AM
I rarely hear one at any other time of the day but the one that comes through between 4:00 and 5:00am lays on it's whistle like there was a damn body tied to the tracks.
Not really. If there was you'd be hearing an urgent, staccato "oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo" Quote from: ChriswUfGator on January 15, 2010, 11:56:56 AM
How many cars are really out at that hour anyway? Ock, how does one go about making a crossing into one of those "quiet zones" you mentioned?
http://www.fra.dot.gov/downloads/PubAffairs/TRAIN_HORN_RULE_FactSheet.pdf
This link should answer most of your questions. Be advised that even with the quiet zone, the engineer may still feel the need to sound the horn. I would suspect anywhere where a large building is near the tracks and crossing and restricts sight distance is not going to be all that controlled.
I would also push two issues along with my neighborhood request. INSIST that the city install crossing gates on all 4 corners of a crossing, affording a 100% shutout of traffic. Two (this is my own "Rule") Get the railroad to work with local communities and re-institute the "MARS LIGHTS" or "GYRA LIGHTS" on the front of the locomotives. These lights have a near searchlight beam that rolls in a pattern such as a figure "8" some distance ahead of the trains. Atlantic Coast Line and Seaboard Coast Line, both used them, and Kansas City Southern and others still do. At night, even from a distance, the beam popping up the trees, surrounding buildings, sweeping the right-of-way, etc... can be instantly seen and recognized for miles. I can tell you in my opinion, there has never been a finer warning of a fast night train. The alternating "ditch lights", the ones that look like auto headlights on the front of new railroad equipment, do not have the range, or command the attention of the original styles. http://www.youtube.com/v/9qifrQQp4eQ&hl=en_US&fs=1&color1=0x402061&color2=0x9461ca&border=1
OCKLAWAHA
Ock, I swear I saw a locomotive with one of the mars lights going down the FEC track towards St. Augustine just last year. They are indeed attention getters and quite spooky on a dark night.
Quote from: Dog Walker on January 17, 2010, 12:12:51 PM
Ock, I swear I saw a locomotive with one of the mars lights going down the FEC track towards St. Augustine just last year. They are indeed attention getters and quite spooky on a dark night.
You certainly could have, the FEC has been buying locomotives on the used market and has GREATLY expanded their fleet. The benefit for "train spotters" is variety of models, and a broad scope of optional appliances.
Anyone still unclear on WTF a "Doppler effect" is, go back to that video. The Doppler effect can be heard loud and clear as that first train passes the camera and the air horns pitch changes radically. OCKLAWAHA
To state the obvious...Aren't there still people out there that have installed Train horns with compressors and tanks into their cars and trucks?
I knew a Realtor at the beach that had one in his Mercedes....and saw one recently at Lowes with 6 trumpets facing back on a lifted truck, aimed at the average vehicles windshield... :o
Quote from: Ernest Street on January 17, 2010, 07:06:26 PM
To state the obvious...Aren't there still people out there that have installed Train horns with compressors and tanks into their cars and trucks?
I knew a Realtor at the beach that had one in his Mercedes....and saw one recently at Lowes with 6 trumpets facing back on a lifted truck, aimed at the average vehicles windshield... :o
Yeah they're around, but thankfully most of them aren't up at 4:30am blowing it at my house. Like that train.
Jaxlore, there are some mornings when it's foggy and cold outside, where I swear the damn train is floating down the river it's so loud lol. I live close to Lakeshore & San Juan.
i live further up near roosevelt and mcduff, so i wonder if the firestation and a few other buildings in the way might deaden the sound. But i am also used to the sound of constant road noise from roosevelt so that might also contribute to my sleeping through it.
http://www.youtube.com/v/D5Du2Gx8nIQ?fs=1&hl=en_US
^So that is what's rolling through my neighborhood at 5AM every morning...