The city's task force committee will discuss the pros and cons of eight potential sites for a new convention center at 5:30pm Thursday, July 26. The meeting will be open to the public and held at the Main Library.
The eight sites up for discussion include:
- City Hall Annex/Duval County Courthouse, East Bay and Newnan streets
- Duval County School Board/Wyndham Jacksonville Riverwalk hotel, Prudential Drive
- Jacksonville Fairgrounds, 510 Fairgrounds Place
- The Jacksonville Landing, 1 Independent Drive
- Jacksonville Municipal Stadium Parking Lot J, Gator Bowl Boulevard
- JEA Southside Generating Station, Broadcast Place
- Prime Osborn Convention Center, 1000 Water St.
- Shipyards, East Bay Street
http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/071807/bus_185219673.shtml (http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/071807/bus_185219673.shtml)
i had a feeling they would see that pile of dirt that was the JEA station on the south bank and try to make that a site. i wonder what they're considering for the landing? or do they mean the east lot? i really feel like it would need to be on the north bank...although in the not too long term the south bank might be the hot spot to be if these housing markets improve soon. and besides by the time we get a convention center they can ride the gondolas over the st johns. ha!
It will be interesting to sit in on this meeting. Since money is a concern, as well as connectivity, some of the suggested sites appear to not be any better than staying in the Prime Osborn.
Sites not owned by City of Jacksonville
Both of these sites are owned by private entities that already have plans for them. Would building a convention center on them also mean paying for riverfront land?
1. Duval County School Board/Wyndham Jacksonville Riverwalk hotel, Prudential Drive
2. Shipyards, East Bay Street
Why take out downtown's top attraction?
Previous reports stressed the importance of downtown having entertainment and dining options within walking distance of the convention center. Why would we take out a place that has the highest concentration of those things for a new convention center? Also, while we own the land, we don't own the buildings. So would we have to buy the Landing from Sleiman?
3. Jacksonville Landing
Isolated locations
Some of these are just as far away from the core and complementing uses as the Prime Osborn.
4. JEA Southside Generating Station, Broadcast Place
5. Jacksonville Municipal Stadium Parking Lot J, Gator Bowl Boulevard
6. Jacksonville Fairgrounds, 510 Fairgrounds Place
City owned & in the middle of it all
On the surface this one makes the most sense, considering the Hyatt is next door, Bay Street borders it to the north and it's in the middle of it all
7. City Hall Annex/Duval County Courthouse, East Bay and Newnan streets
Existing location
8. Prime Osborn Convention Center, 1000 Water St.
It seems the courthouse/city hall annex site would be the best. That is just my lowly, planner opinion.
From another planner, I'm with you fsujax. The only major negative I see with that site is potential expansion opportunities down the line, but that won't be much of a concern if the structure goes vertical, as opposed to horizontal.
From a non-planner, its also the only one that makes sense.
I agree that the courthouse area would probably make the most sense to build a convention center. At the same time, it would be nice if there would be thoughts of putting retail or other entertainment venues there for residents that happen to live in Berkman, Churchwell and other residential areas around there. i.e. a CVS, Walgreens, late night diner... I mean, isn't Bay Street supposed to be the Entertainment District? ... just my 2 cents.
Wouldnt a convention center help spur those things in that area.
Quote from: comncense on July 19, 2007, 08:55:48 AM
I agree that the courthouse area would probably make the most sense to build a convention center. At the same time, it would be nice if there would be thoughts of putting retail or other entertainment venues there for residents that happen to live in Berkman, Churchwell and other residential areas around there. i.e. a CVS, Walgreens, late night diner... I mean, isn't Bay Street supposed to be the Entertainment District? ... just my 2 cents.
I would hope that if a convention center went on that site, those other things would be included as well. Not many urban cities are building warehouse type convention centers these days. The trend has been mixed use for a while now. Seattle's convention center is a great model to look at, in terms of how to integrate a variety of uses at street level and even selling air rights.
QuoteWASHINGTON STATE CONVENTION AND TRADE CENTER - Seattle, WA
To help visualize the urban convention center concept look no further than the Washington State Convention and Trade Center in Seattle, WA. This complex, offering over 200,000sf of exhibit space, opened in 1988 and expanded in 2001, takes up four blocks in the heart of downtown Seattle.
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/tu_proposal/WashingtonTradeCenter-2.jpg)
The Washington State Convention and Trade Center complex is highlighted in blue.
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/tu_proposal/WashingtonTradeCenter-1.jpg)
The original two block center (right) was completed in 1988. The 2001 expansion (left), doubled the amount of square footage, as well as sold "air rights" to the private sector, which resulted in a 30 story Hyatt Hotel and 16 story office tower.
Central to the expansion’s funding strategy was the sale of adjacent property not needed, to private co-developers. These areas included the surplus development rights above and the significant space beneath the convention center expansion.
The term “co-development†is used to describe the condition where multiple project components are separately funded, synergistically related and physically attached. In fact, true co-development refers to a condition where neither project can proceed alone, and their development must proceed concurrently.
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/tu_proposal/WashingtonTradeCenter-3.jpg)
This illustration shows the main street level plan, which features several restaurants and retail shops. Also shown is the most controversial element of the expansion, which was a 90ft wide/ 4-story high, arching glass canopy over Pike Street, which connects the older center with the new expansion.
The WSCTC expansion serves as a benchmark for the integration of co-development into a convention center project by including a hotel, an office building, parking, street-front retail, and a new museum, all located above and below the expansion of the WSCTC.
TU Downtown Vision: Metro Jacksonville's Submission: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/241/115/ (http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/241/115/)
As a planner myself, I agree in general with the Courthouse location being the best.....but given funding and other constraints, the existing Center may make the most sense....the main thing it needs is a hotel....possibly JEDC could give some incentives to the private market...and use $ from the sale of the courthouse property to fund the expansion (or pay off bonds)
Has there been any discussion between JTA and the city regarding the ultimate use of that site? If the Prime Osborn were expanded, that general area would not only need a hotel, but a few restaurants, bars and anything else to generate traffic and life, outside of a city bus depot. In any event, the old Buddy Clarkson site would be an important clog there because it's the major gulf between the Prime Osborn's isolation and the heart of the Northbank.
The transportation center has a proposed retail element. The Prime Osborne also has an existing direct link to the rest of the core via the skyway. The only drawback to the courthouse site is that there is no transit link (unless you count the trolly busses). Either could work IMO, but the courthouse site offers the most potential.
if the city redeveloped the courthouse site, what would the potential losses be? That site is prime riverfront and could collect a pretty penny to pay of the debt for the new courthouse and potentially add to the tax rolls. The prime Osborne is already a slight drain on the budget but has room to grow without too much infrastructure upgrades.
Concerning the Prime Osborn site, its a pretty huge assumption to think it will be easy attracting a convention center hotel there. If the Hyatt were not around then maybe that would be a different story. Regarding JTA's retail space....is the type of retail tenant catering to them, the same type catering to the convention industry? For example, would Plaza III be willing to open up in a Greyhound station?
Here is an in-process model of the Transportation Center and the surrounding area.
See the three dirt lots highlighted in green? RFPs could be issued for entertainment type mixed use development. The traffic flow on those streets would be greatly reduced, parking will be a non-issue, and trow in some market rate residential and that place would be hoppin'.
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/asonj23/Google%20Earth%20Snapshots/ConventionCentersite-1.jpg)
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/asonj23/Google%20Earth%20Snapshots/ConventionCentersite-2.jpg)
The yellow area shows all of the unused acres already available for possible expansion (vertical and horizontal) of the existing facility.
I guess the next hard part will be to lure in a hotel especially with all of the existing proposals soon to be under construction in the core.
Note that I'm not arguing for this site, just throwing around some ideas. :)
The most critical site would be the long parcel running parallel to the skyway between the Prime Osborn and Broad Street, which isn't owned by the city. Its the only one that actually helps bring the Prime Osborn's activities closer together and it also directly ties in with the skyway. Although, not JTA's transportation center is too spread out, meaning it will not be efficient to make transfers between different modes of transit. This is where a little coordination comes into play.
1. JTA's entire center should be located on the convention center's yellow shaded area and all the lots north of that should be sold off to private development, perhaps even to a mall developer like Ben Carter, if he can stick to the rules of urbanism.
2. The Clarkson property is key, not only in terms of connectivity, but also eliminating the blight of a dirt surface parking lot, that stretches for blocks. This is probably a good spot for something like a convention center hotel and adjoining destination uses, that can pull from the direction of the Prime Osborn, as well as the Northbank core.
However, once you start talking about all this type stuff, it would cost you millions more to pull off and probably a decade of extra time, then the idea of simply plopping the center in or adjacent to a spot where many of these things already exist.
Btw, the traffic flow would be greatly increased around the JTA center, due to four routes of BRT, the entire city bus network and greyhound buses coming in from all directions. Not saying it can't be done, but making that area of decent destination will require a lot of extra money and time outside of simply adding on exhibition space. In other words, we should consider it as a hidden cost that should also be heavily weighed during the site selection process.
My point is that the skyway is that connection to the destinations. Its already connected to the core entertainment areas. And, if you build the transportation center in the yellow area, where do you build/expand the convention center?
Connectivity, in terms of walkability is critical here, moreso than mass transit to other areas of the core and city. The Skyway can only do so much. Without some sort of improvement, you would basically be counting on a convention center guest to play frogger with JTA's BRT, walk up a flight of stairs, pay 35 cents to get to Central Station, walk down a flight of stairs and walk two blocks to the Landing to eat in a location with a decent selection of restaurants. Then repeat the same move to get back. That is certainly a connection, but it doesn't stack up well with the competiting convention centers in other cities that with these destinations basically built in or literally across the street from the convention center and hotel. If we're going to sink millions into improving it, we ought to lay a path for it to successfully compete against those in other cities.
Regarding the expansion, yes we own the land where the railyards use to be, but it's better suited for mass transit, which was it's original use, given the site's layout. In the event it's used for additional convention and hotel space, the location still leaves us in the same boat, in regards to isolation and difficulty in attracting a large scale hotel that will need a good portion of it's business to be generated by means, other than the Prime Osborn to ultimately be successful (unless we're going to subsidize it's losses).
Since we're considering taking land we don't own in some of the other options, we should take a look at the dirt between the old train station and Jefferson Street. Some sort of exhibition hall expansion there would at least start to fill in the gap between the two areas. Making it mixed-use (which should be the goal regardless of location), would also help draw an additional element into the immediate area, which would help substain the new hotel/businesses in the area when the convention center is empty. All in all to lay it out the right way, a way that spurs additional support businesses and helps connect the center with the core, would turn out to be a lot more expensive and difficult than we originally imagined.
Now we could always take the cheap route and just add space in the parking lot to the west. But then we shouldn't be suprised if the Prime Osborn doesn't effectively attract the events worthy of spending millions on it's expansion, on a regular basis. Because in the end, we have to keep in mind, that the competition is not standing pat. The best are constantly looking for ways to improve their overall offerings and surroundings. If we're going to invest in this thing, then we need to put our best foot forward.
I think there is a fatal flaw in trying to develop a hub of retail/entertainment/restaurant activity at the Prime Osborn, while at the same time trying to do the same thing at the Laura/Landing/Hemming and Bay Street corridors. Putting the Center in the middle of those areas, will make the entire area gel together as a unit, as opposed to creating a competitor for the same kinds of activity.
Great point. We've had a difficult enough time in trying to develop one vibrant district in the urban core. Trying for multiple nodes has failure written all over it.
IMO, the Landing's east lot is the ideal location for a convention center. Its directly adjacent a hotel, the Landing, riverwalk, and right on the edge of the CBD. Another positive is that it will have to be built vertically and would hug the riverwalk allowing for an extension of the Landing's retail and entertainment.
^And private entities (Sleiman and the Hyatt) have already considered the idea at that spot. IMHO a purely private convention center is the way to go. People investing their own money and reputations are far more likely to build something successful.
If this convention center were being built now or even in a year I would agree with the Landing east lot. However, should many of the developements (proposed) take place who knows the south bank may not be ruled out.
The Times-Union Article did not fully discuss the reasoning behind the choices made.
One - Excerpt from the Convention, Sports, & Leisure Intl. The consultant working with the Task Force regarding the convention center (From the JCCI/Task Force website):Option 1 â€" Focus on Existing Convention Facility Inventory Strengths
Under this scenario, the site area surrounding the Hyatt, with a significant inventory of meeting, ballroom and hotel inventory, would become an initial focus for investment in the Jacksonville convention industry. Public/private arrangements would be pursued allowing for the creation of a more comprehensive package of exhibit, meeting, ballroom and hotel room inventory associated with the Hyatt product on adjacent publicly-owned
Pubic/private agreements would be entered into that would protect the public interest in terms of focusing on non-local, or room-night generating events, as opposed to more locally-oriented events.
Under this scenario, land parcels adjacent to the Hyatt would be identified and secured for development of added convention space. The space would be developed with public funds, and a public/private operating agreement would be negotiated to operate the space.
Significant attention would be paid to creating booking and operating agreements that protect the public sector interest in generating non-local events, as opposed to local banquets, meeting and receptions.
Under this scenario, continued use of the Center would have to be identified. The Center is architecturally and culturally significant within the community, and the public use of the Center should be secured. The continued use of the Center for uses such as local consumer, banquet and meeting events should be pursued. In addition, major national and regional rotating art/culture exhibits could be secured for the Center, and long-term relocation of existing functions such as those housed at the Museum of Science and
History could be considered. Any and all of these uses could help to create a very viable local community gathering place, with the Hyatt (under a public/private partnership arrangement) serving as a primary convention and meeting venue for the destination for the next ten to fifteen years.
The viability of this option is conditioned on the availability of publicly owned parcels adjacent to the Hyatt. Future development of large government/civic facilitates (as currently planned but not finalized in planning) are necessary conditions to the success of this option.
This option, over the long-term, has the potential to elevate the Jacksonville market to a position comparable to similar regional and even select national markets. None of the above suggested development plans preclude future, more substantial development of Jacksonville convention and tradeshow space to cater to the national convention and tradeshow industry should demand conditions warrant.
Option 2 -- Pursue the Prime F. Osborn Center
Given the fact that the Center currently is viewed as the primary venue within the community catering to the convention and tradeshow market, consideration could be given to further investment in this venue. Under this circumstance, public efforts to secure added hotel inventory adjacent or attached to the Center would have to be pursued, and significant additions of meeting, banquet and exhibit space could be planned for.
***********************************************
The threshold criteria for site consideration are as follows:
1) The site is located within defined downtown core boundaries.
2) The site is located within 3-5 blocks of hotels and related activities or offers the prospect of a public-private partnership to build such infrastructure [Staff note: The downtown core was defined in the July 5th meeting by the following borders; North â€" Union Street, South â€" Prudential Drive, West â€" Prime Osborn Center, and East â€" Hart Bridge.]
(First Tier) The sites meeting both criteria were:
•Courthouse/City Hall Annex: This site is located next to the Hyatt, Jacksonville Landing, and abuts the planned E-Town entertainment district on Bay Street. The Omni and Times Union Performing Arts Center are also within a one-half mile radius.
•The Jacksonville Landing: This is a new site added by the Subcommittee for consideration. It includes the ground level parking area west of the Hyatt and the Landings property. Like the site above, this is near the planned development on Bay Street and is 1 block from the Hyatt. [Staff note: The restaurant, bars, and clubs in the Landing are part of what makes this area attractive as a convention center site.]
•JEA Southside Generating Station: This site is approximately .2 miles from the Wyndham and within one-half mile of parking (Kings Street garage) Eateries (BB’s, Chai Tea House, Morton’s, and Charthouse), hotels (Crown Plaza, Extended Stay and Hampton Inn), and a nightclub (Endo Exo). This location is within a mile of San Marco Square and accessible to the Landing via Water Taxi.
•The Wydham site, which includes the surface parking lots east of the hotel and the site Duval County School Board building, is only viable if the DCSB building is moved, which would require a financial allocation to relocate DCSB staff and raze the building.
(Second Tier) Each of the following sites met the first criteria of being located in the core city, but is not located within 3-5 blocks of hotels, restaurants, and entertainment; Alltel Stadium J, Fairgrounds, Kids Kampus, Prime Osborn, and the Shipyards.
These sites require public private investment in order to offer a convention package of interest to event planners and convention delegates.
The committee acknowledged that each of these second tier sites would require development of a hospitality infrastructure as well as a convention center building. The exception is the Prime Osborn, which would require the hospitality infrastructure alone.
For those sites devoid of any infrastructure - Alltel Stadium J, Fairgrounds, Kids Kampus, and the Shipyards - any consideration for convention center construction should include plans to build a headquarters hotel at the very least. Therefore, these sites and the Prime Osborn must appeal to private developers for investment. Likewise, if constructed these hotels must attract non-convention business as only 30 to 40 percent of the hotel’s occupancy will be made-up of convention delegates. A hotel perceived to be outside the hub for business or leisure travelers will not be successful as these customers make-up the bulk (60 to 70 percent) of lodging consumers.
Next Task Force Meeting:
July 26, 2007 (5:30 p.m. â€" 7:00 p.m.)
Site Selection report to the Task Force
@ Jacksonville Public Library (Main Branch - Downtown)
http://www.jcci.org/ConventionCenterTaskForce.aspx
-SEB
8 possible sites for a convention center QuoteA committee of a city task force put out a list of sites last week. Although no formal negotiations have occurred, the public is invited to discuss the pros and cons of each location at a meeting this afternoon.
If you go
What: Convention Center Task Force meeting
When: 5:30 p.m. today
Where: Main Library, 303 N. Laura St.
Find out more: For details, go to www.jcci.org
QuoteA city task force has been exploring ways to expand the city's ability to host conventions, including looking at sites for a bigger center. But, with the state of the city budget, what are the chances their recommendations will see the light of day?
THE PLAN: Don't do anything
ANALYSIS: The mayor has said there is no money to pursue a bigger convention center at this time, and a new county courthouse has yet to be built.
THE CHANCES: Very likely. This is the path of least resistance.
THE PLAN: PRIVATE
ANALYSIS: Convention centers supposedly boost overall economic activity. But, by themselves, they lose money, which is why most are subsidized by taxes.
THE CHANCES: Zero. Why build something so risky?
THE PLAN: PRIVATE-PUBLIC PARTNERSHIP
ANALYSIS: More convention center projects are being built across the country by offering private developers financial incentives like fee waivers and tax credits.
THE CHANCES: Maybe. With potential sites identified, the city can weigh the odds.
THE PLAN: PUBLIC
ANALYSIS: Though most convention centers are built by the government, many cities that have footed the bill aren't seeing the returns on investment they were promised.
THE CHANCES: Not likely, if city leaders want to be re-elected.
PHASED PROJECT
ANALYSIS: A third-party consultant hired by the task force suggested taking a short-term solution while planning for a longer-term vision. This option can also incorporate partnerships.
THE CHANCES: Maybe, if city leaders decide convention business is a priority.
http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/072607/bus_186932755.shtml (http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/072607/bus_186932755.shtml)
I have to believe that the JEA site and Landing are just in the mix to help make the argument for the other sites. Neither of those make any sense... If the JEA site was too poluted for Case Pomeroy it would be a huge obstacle for the City.
It has to be the Courthouse site IMO.