FDOT is like a lava lamp, fun to watch but not very bright. I'd wasted my time trying to convince FDOT when I could have been doing something useful, like examining my reflection in the bottom of a fine glass.
Some people have their heads stuck where the sun don't shine. Sadly our own FDOT is in such a position on our highly vaunted HIGH SPEED RAIL "Showcase Project". Bah Humbug! Do the math. It is 360 miles from St. Petersburg to Miami, via Orlando and Melbourne, but only 250 miles from St. Petersburg to Miami via I-75. So a non stop Greyhound running at 70 mph would beat the train by as much as an hour counting for station dwell times. You know I really believe that FDOT can make this country what it once was - an Arctic region covered with ice.
The fare?
Glad you asked:
Tampa-Miami HSR $97 AIRLINE $76 AIRLINE IS -21.6% CHEAPER and takes only 55 minutes
So where is the benefit of a hub and spokes rail system?
That bus fare by the way would be $46.
My question to kick this off is: "Did anybody THINK during the process that led up to these stellar decisions?"
OCKLAWAHA
Nobody cares. The super train looks cool and that's all that matters (just joking for those who don't get it).
Ock/lake..........somebody is going to be laughing all the way to the bank if this takes place. Not smart, progressive nor is it cost effective!
We NEED HSR!
LOOK AT EUROPE!
Quote from: Ocklawaha on December 24, 2009, 12:34:45 AM
The fare?
Glad you asked:
Tampa-Miami HSR $97 AIRLINE $76 AIRLINE IS -21.6% CHEAPER and takes only 55 minutes
So where is the benefit of a hub and spokes rail system?
That bus fare by the way would be $46.
Come on Ock...you know better.
Think about it...that airline fare is 21 days out and can not be had as a walkup...plus you'll have to get to the airport at least 1 hour early so the real time is closer to 2 hours/
Also, btw...the train won't go from St. Pete so let's look at Tampa instead....280 miles via I-275/75 vs. 330 miles on HSR via Orlando....so if HSR averages only 90mph (which it clearly will), it beats the bus!
Or I could drive my family of 5 for about a "C" note round trip, and save all the hassels of air, bus and rail travel.
... since we're being all pragmatic and stuff.
I loved the trains in Europe. I had a rail pass went from country to country no hassle it was great never set foot on HSR. Day trips by train great, Scenic trips wonderful and Just trying to get somewhere without driving a real convenience never set foot on HSR. What we need is the most widespread interconnected system we can almost afford. It needs to have a dependable schedule but it does not have to hit warp speed or even be faster than car rail is just a better way to go. If you can count on it and it goes where you want for a good cost most will prefer it. Driving is a bigger hassle than rail IMO.
Quote from: JeffreyS on December 24, 2009, 09:03:49 AM
I loved the trains in Europe. I had a rail pass went from country to country no hassle it was great never set foot on HSR. Day trips by train great, Scenic trips wonderful and Just trying to get somewhere without driving a real convenience never set foot on HSR. What we need is the most widespread interconnected system we can almost afford. It needs to have a dependable schedule but it does not have to hit warp speed or even be faster than car rail is just a better way to go. If you can count on it and it goes where you want for a good cost most will prefer it. Driving is a bigger hassle than rail IMO.
DING!
Quote from: buckethead on December 24, 2009, 08:23:27 AM
We NEED HSR!
LOOK AT EUROPE!
YES! But not like this, you don't run a successful railroad with a hub and spokes system. This isn't that hard (except for people weaned on petrol), look at the map and follow the traditional travel patterns.
When the Great Depression struck, the railroads were about to close the lid on two cross state connections from Tampa to Miami. One via Ft. Myers, and the other via Palmdale, La Belle. Both projects got canceled. Aside from this, the railroad map of Florida circa 1950-70 speaks to how to connect the dots. Tampa to Miami via Orlando and Melbourne is a farce. OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: buckethead on December 24, 2009, 09:03:12 AM
Or I could drive my family of 5 for about a "C" note round trip, and save all the hassels of air, bus and rail travel.
not really...the average cost of driving is about $0.50 per mile...so that would be roughly $280....but obviously still cheaper than other modes if all 5 people are travelling.
Quote from: tufsu1 on December 24, 2009, 08:57:52 AM
Quote from: Ocklawaha on December 24, 2009, 12:34:45 AM
The fare?
Glad you asked:
Tampa-Miami HSR $97 AIRLINE $76 AIRLINE IS -21.6% CHEAPER and takes only 55 minutes
So where is the benefit of a hub and spokes rail system?
That bus fare by the way would be $46.
Come on Ock...you know better.
Think about it...that airline fare is 21 days out and can not be had as a walk up...plus you'll have to get to the airport at least 1 hour early so the real time is closer to 2 hours/
Also, btw...the train won't go from St. Pete so let's look at Tampa instead....280 miles via I-275/75 vs. 330 miles on HSR via Orlando....so if HSR averages only 90mph (which it clearly will), it beats the bus!
It might IF it averages 90+, but with the stations close, and dwell time at least at Mickey, Orlando and Melbourne, a two year old on a fast trike could beat it (figuratively speaking).
No matter what you have invested in this plan TUFSU1 if HSR is anywhere near the end to end time frame of travel that is half or less the cost, it isn't going to carry a soul. Worse still, no where near the numbers it will need to repay several billion dollars with the "imagined profit". You know better too TUFSU1, THERE WILL BE NO PROFIT. From the moment I picked the HSR plan up until I laid it down, I was convulsed with laughter. Someday I intend reading it.
You talk about having to go all the way to the airport to catch the plane, which BTW DOES offer walk up for about twice the price of your super train and 1/4 the travel time, the train is leaving from the "PLANE STATION" too! Maybe I pissed you off or insulted your hard work, but to put this in diplomatic Ocklawaha terms, this whole project is doomed to the junk heap of transportation history. If your insulted just remember I don't care to belong to a club that accepts people like me as members.
Buckethead and Faye are running in circles and waving their hands saying "The Messiah Train has come..." Nobody on this forum would argue that I'm the most rail centric nut in this basket, which is why I'm very critical, one misstep and our dreams DIE. THIS IS A HUGE MISSTEP. We need to improve Amtrak into a state network of medium speed corridors and build the ridership with dependable frequent trains. Step two is improve track speeds, stations and continue to add frequency's. Step three, when the routes are identified as heavily traveled, then, like California, we convert to exclusive HSR... Slow and steady beats stars in our eye's blind. A child of five would understand this. PLEASE send someone to fetch a child of five. OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: stephendare on December 24, 2009, 09:55:03 AM
Quote from: tufsu1 on December 24, 2009, 09:44:45 AM
Quote from: buckethead on December 24, 2009, 09:03:12 AM
Or I could drive my family of 5 for about a "C" note round trip, and save all the hassels of air, bus and rail travel.
not really...the average cost of driving is about $0.50 per mile...so that would be roughly $280....but obviously still cheaper than other modes if all 5 people are travelling.
seriously? 6 miles a gallon, tufsu?
What silliness are you going to cite in order to prove a point not worth proving?
Stephen, He is talking about the total costs of running a car not just the fuel. Purchase, repairs/maintainence, depreciation, insurance, etc.
I think you might have mistaken my sarcasm for sincerity, Ock.
Quote from: Dog Walker on December 24, 2009, 10:44:22 AM
Quote from: stephendare on December 24, 2009, 09:55:03 AM
Quote from: tufsu1 on December 24, 2009, 09:44:45 AM
Quote from: buckethead on December 24, 2009, 09:03:12 AM
Or I could drive my family of 5 for about a "C" note round trip, and save all the hassels of air, bus and rail travel.
not really...the average cost of driving is about $0.50 per mile...so that would be roughly $280....but obviously still cheaper than other modes if all 5 people are travelling.
seriously? 6 miles a gallon, tufsu?
What silliness are you going to cite in order to prove a point not worth proving?
Stephen, He is talking about the total costs of running a car not just the fuel. Purchase, repairs/maintainence, depreciation, insurance, etc.
I picked that up too, but reality dictates that most of those costs are incurred despite a few trips taken by air, rail or bus. Joe six pack is not even considering such costs when deciding which means of travel is more economical. Just as considerations of subsidies and infastructure costs are not reflected in fares.
stephendare...........I say not............don't forget the "Depreciation" too!
Quote from: stephendare on December 24, 2009, 09:55:03 AM
Quote from: tufsu1 on December 24, 2009, 09:44:45 AM
Quote from: buckethead on December 24, 2009, 09:03:12 AM
Or I could drive my family of 5 for about a "C" note round trip, and save all the hassels of air, bus and rail travel.
not really...the average cost of driving is about $0.50 per mile...so that would be roughly $280....but obviously still cheaper than other modes if all 5 people are travelling.
seriously? 6 miles a gallon, tufsu?
What silliness are you going to cite in order to prove a point not worth proving?
as Dog Walker pointed out, it covers gas, maintenance, insurance, etc....and as for the silliness I would cite, it would be the Federal IRS standards...for 20120, I will get paid $0.50 per mile that I drive my car for business (which is actually $0.03 less than 2009).
Quote from: Ocklawaha on December 24, 2009, 09:56:30 AM
It might IF it averages 90+, but with the stations close, and dwell time at least at Mickey, Orlando and Melbourne, a two year old on a fast trike could beat it (figuratively speaking).
No matter what you have invested in this plan TUFSU1 if HSR is anywhere near the end to end time frame of travel that is half or less the cost, it isn't going to carry a soul. Worse still, no where near the numbers it will need to repay several billion dollars with the "imagined profit". You know better too TUFSU1, THERE WILL BE NO PROFIT. From the moment I picked the HSR plan up until I laid it down, I was convulsed with laughter. Someday I intend reading it.
You talk about having to go all the way to the airport to catch the plane, which BTW DOES offer walk up for about twice the price of your super train and 1/4 the travel time, the train is leaving from the "PLANE STATION" too! Maybe I pissed you off or insulted your hard work, but to put this in diplomatic Ocklawaha terms, this whole project is doomed to the junk heap of transportation history. If your insulted just remember I don't care to belong to a club that accepts people like me as members.
Ock...I never quoted the time needed to get to the airport or park/rent a car...because I understand that time is also needed for HSR....as for profit, of course you're right...no transit system makes a profit (neither do roads or airplanes)
All I can tell you about travel time is that the express train that will go from Tampa to OIA is supposed to take about 40 minutes...given that its 72 miles, that would be averaging 110mph...and yes, I understand that not all trains will be express...but neither is Greyhound.
Finally, you didn't piss me off....even though I was involved in some of the work on HSR earlier this decade, I'm not sold on the plan as being the best thing for Florida...but I think people need to know the FACTS, not just the assumptions.
tufsu1 not sure how you came up with that............my figures show 118 mph! That is 72 miles times the 40 min's projected travel! Standard time x distance navigation figure so I am confused as to how you came up with that figure...........you also forgot about the stop in the middle! Which makes things even faster to AVERAGE the 110 mph your posting! Last I saw there were three stops planned OIA , somewhere in the middle and then the Tampa end or is this incorrect? You have to travel 10 to 13% faster to average and set speed above 60 mph to average 60 mph unless you have a clear path without any slowdowns or stoppages! I base that 10 to 13% on years of having to rendezvous at altitude/water and land without road markers of any kind!
sorry CS...I was rounding things off...guess my math was insane (like the thread title) :D
you are somewhat correct...there will be 3 stops in between the endpoints (Lakeland, Disney, and Convention Center)...however, the plan is to run a certain number of express trains each day that wouldn't stop at the intermediate stations....that is what the 40 minute time wasd based on
Quote from: stephendare on December 24, 2009, 02:33:14 PM
As I posted, i understood what you were driving at, tufsu, It just doesnt have any bearing on the conversation in general or the point in specific.
I think it is directly related to the topic...I often make travel decisions between driving and flying, often based on cost (sometimes based on time).
Driving tends to be cheaper for trips when an entire family is travelling together...flying, and trains for that matter, are more competitive for single-person trips (like business trips).
Imo, its not the Tampa to Orlando or Miami trips that we should be focusing on. Everyday ridership will be commuters from each city's suburbs and bedroom communities going back and forth between their homes and the major regional city. Think Tampa-Brandon-Lakeland, Haines City-Orlando-Cocoa or Stuart-West Palm Beach-Fort Lauderdale instead of the terminal cities. Imo, that's the fatal flaw in Florida's intercity rail planning. This is where something like a Amtrak corridor services with local and express trains clearly excells over the HSR plan. Both in terms of usability and affordability.
Lake THIS IS THE PROBLEM, you hit the nail with your head... uh? yeah! There is NOTHING on I-4 for anyone to go to, and the only reason cars are on it at all, is because it gets them to the exit of US27 and a hundred roads like it faster then 17-92.
That station dwell time in the "Huge Orlando Hub" (ahem - HA! - cough) is going to wipe out any savings in flying along at 140 mph. 40 minutes to get to Orlando from Tampa, on the fastest express, then 20-30 minute dwell times for a hub interchange, and we're back to 60-70 minutes. The historic travel pattern is North - South from Orlando, not a roughly east - west alignment. From Orlando to Miami, any sane person is using the Florida Turnpike, yet now the HSR planners have decided that misses the beach cities. Orlando to Miami via Melbourne and the beaches is crazy and with a couple more station stops will cost the train dearly. So ignoring the historic patterns, we either go south through the Kissimmee River Valley, and serve NOTHING, or by way of the beach, and diddle away the timetable.
Historically on the ground its:
Jacksonville-Orlando-Auburndale-Lakeland-Tampa
Jacksonville-Orlando-Auburndale-Sebring-West Palm Beach-Miami
Jacksonville-Daytona Beach-Melbourne-West Palm Beach-Miami
Jacksonville-Ocala-Wildwood-Auburndale-Sebring-West Palm Beach-Miami
Jacksonville-Ocala-Wildwood-Dade City-Lakeland-Tampa
As a famous artist once said, "All roads lead to Jacksonville..." We don't have to dream it, we are it, even if we're too stupid to realize it!
OCKLAWAHA
I agree with Lake...but it changes your argument Ock....you were discussing the merits of the long-distance non-stop trip.....obviously one of the advantages rail (and buses) have over air travel is that it can make intermediate stops along the route.
As for the HSR route from Orlando to Miami, it has not been decided....they are still looking at both the Turnpike route and the Beachline/95 route
Imo, the Beachline makes better sense than the Turnpike and the FEC makes better sense then I-95. The Turnpike may be faster between Orlando and Miami but it serves nothing but the boonies in between. Tying in the populated coastal cities and Cape/Port Canaveral with Orlando and Miami makes a ton of more sense then serving the woods, cow pastures and orange groves along the Turnpike.
Quote from: thelakelander on December 24, 2009, 05:36:23 PM
Imo, the Beachline makes better sense than the Turnpike and the FEC makes better sense then I-95. The Turnpike may be faster between Orlando and Miami but it serves nothing but the boonies in between. Tying in the populated coastal cities and Cape/Port Canaveral with Orlando and Miami makes a ton of more sense then serving the woods, cow pastures and orange groves along the Turnpike.
Lakes argument is just the flip side of the same coin. That HSR will do nothing to serve the "commuter corridors of Central and South Florida" and very little if anything on the long distance stages due to circuitous routing. Serve the Turnpike line and you assure our billion dollar rails serve NOTHING AT ALL. It is a lose - lose argument. It is also the sole point/points that need to be fixed before those without the stars in our eyes will support it.
Ask anyone why they don't take Amtrak to Miami from Jacksonville today, and they'll tell you 9 to 12 hours! The same thing will happen to the HSR line once FDOT figures out that Orlando is not a railroad distributor, rather it's a terminal point. People are GOING TO Orlando, not through it, and the reason is geographically obvious. What flies in the air, doesn't always fly on the ground, and their about to find this out. Hell there is no bigger rail advocate in Florida then myself, and as I said, the plan makes one burst out in laughter... then you read it!OCKLAWAHA
Ock......I concur with your viewpoint! I would like to see true HSR here in Florida but have reservations about that regions being the one! We need a showcase system, no frills and a lean and mean people moving machine! I understand all of the consulting and projections that have been done to this point but must point out ......no one bothered to ask me squat! I don't care how or really where but Orlando just is not it! You have to basically start from scratch and there are rails in place right now (FEC) that could be used to our advantage! I keep harping about using what we have available as in right now today, and it appears that FDOT has other plans starting elsewhere..............real cost effective! All I have to say is, pay for it out of your pockets!
CS...true HSR (which according to some people needs to be 200+ mph) couldn't be accomplished on the FEC line....so what do you really want...
A. True HSR on new alignments with grade separated crossings
B. Upgraded intercity rail using existing corridors w/ speeds of up to 90mph
C. A combination of both
D. Neither
I don't know about CS's position, but I'd prefer option B to get started. Peak speed should be a secondary issue. Its more crucial to upgrade and improve slower track sections than it is to worry about getting a train up to 200+ mph. The FEC serves populated city centers. I-95 and the Turnpike serve sprawl and undeveloped land. You can't be Micheal Jordan by just showing up on the court cold turkey without playing years and years of ball at an early age. You'll get laughed off the court. The same goes for planning intercity rail in Florida. We need to learn how to crawl, walk, and dribble before running, dunking and draining 23 footers.
As you know, I agree (other than the I-95 serves sprawl part)...but what's your long-term vision?
lake.............I agree , option B to start! No more frills then is necessary but a lean people moving system, 200mph is not critical to start but a system that makes use of existing rail would be a cheaper system to start with, as in FEC side along the East Coast which actually has urban centers or population centers that could make use of rail to move people along........East Coast to start and enough trains for at least 2 a day.....and that would be two down and two up at staggered hours where something leaves AM at a reasonable hour! If that would be too much then try one a day both ways......we need to start something and the FEC rails at least extend to Miami from Jacksonville. Try a trial program and see just how it works out.....I think there would be more traffic from here to Miami than from here to Orlando! We need to get something started and that appears to me to be the most cost efficient and making use of what is in place right this very minute! It would be nice to start with a clean sheet of paper but not very cost effective for something that is not traveling @ 200mph! That would require a clean sheet, maybe, or some of the existing trackage could be upgraded to where your looking a 120 mph after upgrading to 90 mph. I agree with lake's viewpoint............ya gotta start small and go up from there! Expand system from there to encompass the whole State, one bit at a time........needless to say funding goes hand in hand with expansion to those limits! Wether it is taxing Parking Garages(or a slice of the pie)Inland Navigation gets $2.73 from me ......why not Mass Transit? For something like that.....which benefits everyone, I would have to consider it!
Quote from: tufsu1 on December 24, 2009, 07:19:46 PM
As you know, I agree (other than the I-95 serves sprawl part)...but what's your long-term vision?
By I-95 serving sprawl, I'm referring to the majority of the line's length, north of Palm Beach, Broward and Miami-Dade. I believe the key to success for statewide intercity rail is to directly connect the Sarasotas, Melbournes, Titusvilles, Daytonas, Tallahassees and Port St. Lucies of the state just as much as it is to connect the Tampas, Orlandos and Miamis to each other.
As for vision, at this point we don't even have a network. I'd rather take that $1.5/$2.5 billion for Tampa/Orlando HSR and spread it all over state with an intercity corridor network similar to California. So my short and long term vision (present to 30 years out) would be to actually establish an intercity network and spend some time establishing local transit options in various cities statewide to complement it. By planning for intercity rail lines to occur in the cores of Florida's cities, it will give us the best opportunity to redevelop and expand the walkable sections of our communities around transit. Imo, this is much more important to future of the state's overall development than ignoring established cities in favor of connecting only the 4 or 5 largest.
Quote from: CS Foltz on December 24, 2009, 07:57:09 PM
East Coast to start and enough trains for at least 2 a day.....and that would be two down and two up at staggered hours where something leaves AM at a reasonable hour! If that would be too much then try one a day both ways......we need to start something and the FEC rails at least extend to Miami from Jacksonville. Try a trial program and see just how it works out.....
I'd like to see frequencies equal or similar to Amtrak's Capitol or Pacific Surliner corridors between Florida's cities.
QuoteIn fiscal year 2005-2006, the Capitol Corridor had about 1.3 million riders per year, and is the third busiest Amtrak route in terms of ridership, surpassed only by the Northeast Corridor and the Pacific Surfliner.
The Capitol Corridor service is commonly used by commuters between the Sacramento area and the Bay Area as an alternative to driving on the congested Interstate 80 corridor. Monthly passes and discounted trip tickets are available on the line. Many high ranking politicians, lobbyists, and their aides choose to live in the Bay Area and commute to their jobs in Sacramento, while workers in the Oakland, San Francisco, and Silicon Valley employment centers take the Capitol Corridor trains from their less expensive homes in Solano County and the Sacramento metropolitan area.
Since August 28, 2006, the Capitol Corridor route has run 32 trains per day (16 in each direction) on weekdays, reflecting a substantial increase over the prior service frequency. According to its management, ridership on the Capitol Corridor trains tripled between 1998 and 2005.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitol_Corridor
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/images/transit/amtrak_capitol_corridor/train_schedules-1.jpg)
lake......I concur! It would be great to connect all medium cities and up with just Rail..........some of the minor ones already have Rail acess (Starke's and the likes)! HSR would be nice for the major to major's, but we have to start somewhere.............Amtrak has that option from what I have seen. Now if they just have the vision beyond what they have going now, we could be off and running!
You do know of course that it is farther from Pensacola to Miami via rail, then from New York to Chicago. But because of our distance, a late 11:45 pm departure from Pensacola, Tampa, Miami, and Jacksonville, makes for a great overnight with early am arrivals at the other end.
OCKLAWAHA
Pensacola west or east to J'ville would be just fine with me Ock! Rail could be the answer for a variety of issue's ranging from job's to easy acess to all points on the compass! Time will tell and I am just going to kick back and watch!
Yeah y'all just count on a FEC/Amtrak corridor train to Miami at 7.5 hours overnight. It looks like this on a current long distance schedule:
New York - 6:15 am
Washington - 9:55 am
Richmond - 11:50 am
Fayetteville - 3:44 pm
Charleston - 7:15 pm
Savannah - 9:03 pm
JACKSONVILLE - 11:24 pm
JACKSONVILLE - 11:48 pm
Orlando - 2:55 am
Sebring - 5:05 am
West Palm - 6:54 am
Ft. Lauderdale - 8:02 am
Miami - 8:55 am
Pretty damn sweet huh? But do you think DOT, FDOT, Amtrak, JTA or anyone else will listen? Huh? the FEC route would make that JAX - Miami time about 7.5 hours, for about a 6:55 am arrival in Miami. SWEET! MIA - MDE everyday from the new Transportation Center at Miami.
NEVER SURRENDER! NEVER GIVE UP!
OCKLAWAHA
Ock..........you can forget about JTA, their mentality is set in concrete!(Pun intended)The new Rail Deptartment should be pushing to get into the foray to make their bones.............but until that happens FDOT is a loser!
actually I think the FEC plan (including track upgrades) brings the Miami train ride down to about 6.5 hours...even better!
FEC upgrades would be very very welcome! I know the chances of the tracks being fully up to speed at this point is slim! But, got no where to go but up from this period so anything to enhance what is in place is good! Total cost should be no problem since, according to the CSX CEO, Mr Ward..........all money from the sale of the trackage down Orland way will stay in Florida! Granted FEC is not part of the CSX Network but there are points where they meet or cross connect..........so lets see what takes place!
the total cost to re-initiate Amtrak on the FEC is $700 million...which does not include a new station in Jax....Phase 1 costs about $550 million, of which the state has requested half from the Federal high speed rail stimulus funds.
Quote from: tufsu1 on December 25, 2009, 08:28:15 AM
actually I think the FEC plan (including track upgrades) brings the Miami train ride down to about 6.5 hours...even better!
I'd like to see that TUFSU1, it would be something of a record, certainly faster then anything before us. I just have some doubts about holding that sort of speed through the heavily urbanized area's until the whole right-of-way is fenced and the track bridged rather then crossed by every highway. If that day comes, great, then I would suggest a heavily padded express schedule, to stretch the overnight leg to about 7/7.5 hours. Otherwise we're SOL on any overnight travel SOUTHBOUND.
FYI, (not you so much TU) The historical pattern of almost all Jacksonville - SOUTH routes, is HEAVY southbound in the AM, which slowly dies off about 2 PM, then a parade of northbounds which get super heavy about dusk. Nearly every line had at least one flip train that ran counter to the parade, The Gulf Coast Special (ACL-SCL -Gainesville/Ocala line), The Everglades (ACL-A Line),
The Havana Special (FEC), several SAL trains on the "S" used the schedule over the years, IE: Sun Queen, Palmland, Sunland etc... almost all split in Wildwood and served both coasts of Florida. Amtrak abandoned all night trains southbound - something we need back if we want balance.OCKLAWAHA
Ock I am somewhat confused as to why "Night Trains" south bound were discontinued? Less heat and possible traffic issue's to contend with I'm guessing! Balance north to south bound runs makes sense......what goes down should go up!
or maybe just cutbacks....remember Amtrak took over in the early 70's and without dedicated funding, it has been shrinking ever since!
Quote from: CS Foltz on December 25, 2009, 05:54:58 PM
Ock I am somewhat confused as to why "Night Trains" south bound were discontinued? Less heat and possible traffic issue's to contend with I'm guessing! Balance north to south bound runs makes sense......what goes down should go up!
The reasons are myriad, but the traditional schedules were built to allow for the most convenient departures and arrivals in New York City - through - Richmond. Jacksonville being about 600 miles out tends toward arrivals from the north in the AM, and departures from the south in the PM. It's fairly easy to see why a train leaving Miami or Tampa at 7:00 am - through about 11:00 am, is going to end up in Jacksonville headed north in the evening. Likewise trains that left midday from the big apple, are rolling into Jax from 7:00 am - through about 11:00 am, for evening arrivals at the resort communities south of us.
Trains that left New York late at night, would cruise through Philadelphia, Wilmington, Baltimore, Washington, Richmond at ungodly hours. Trains leaving NYC late in the day were also subject to barely clearing Washington before midnight. Either case puts those trains through Jax in the late PM the second day out, thus setting up a almost textbook perfect stage for a quick overnight dash to some tropical terminus by the sea. As late afternoon or evening hours were not the best times to be running to catch a train in the Northeast, these trains all tended to be heavy on "front end revenue cars," IE: Railway Express, Postal Storage Mail, Railway Post Office, and even some containers (in their final years).
When Amtrak took over they destroyed the remnant of the express trains, the former nationwide giant, RAILWAY EXPRESS AGENCY thought they were ready. They changed their corporate name and logo to REA EXPRESS in 1970 in anticipation of Railpax (which became Amtrak the next year). Amtrak started rolling in 1971 and by 1975, REA was bankrupt and shattered.
So now we have BOTH reasons, Amtrak didn't want the risk associated with the late evening departures due to perceived low ridership. Low ridership that wasn't helped in the last 10 years of private rail operations, as these "express" trains lost more and more of their amenity's, such as dining cars, lounge cars, sleepers, etc... Nobody wanted to ride a 31 hour coach train without food!
So even the paperwork would have made them look like big losers, even though that might not have been/be true. With the express business gone and ridership figures in free fall over the last years of operation, they couldn't see between the lines enough to try it. Worse still, in the 18 national long distance routes Amtrak operates, ONLY FLORIDA warrants more then one train daily each way. We had 6 when they started, now we have only 2 left, and they blow through back to back about an hour apart in the early AM heading south, and pm heading north.
Stupid is as stupid does...OCKLAWAHA
It is a crying shame Ock.......I see possibilities and then some! I understand all about scheduling and the like but in todays day and age, we have a fighting chance for resurrecting some of the old names and schedules! Two aday beats none aday and we have something in the works with FEC/Amtrak! I am trying to maintain a positive mind set and have hopes (now that we have a genuine Rail Department) things could be picking up in the right direction! LR would be nice but we may have to resort to the trickle down theory.....main lines first, then LR in town!
Quote from: CS Foltz on December 26, 2009, 08:17:30 AM
I am trying to maintain a positive mind set and have hopes (now that we have a genuine Rail Department) things could be picking up in the right direction! LR would be nice but we may have to resort to the trickle down theory.....main lines first, then LR in town!
Me too CS, it's been sort of like watching a swarm of 5TH graders running the NFL, perhaps their hearts are in the right place, but they just don't get it. They do it because they are paid, and have little or no passion for the subject, this is borne out by the results of their work.
Your trickle down theory is the reverse of conventional thinking on the subject, which says, we must have local systems up and running before Amtrak or HSR would work. I tend to agree with you on this that people intending to travel any distance by intercity rail (or anything else for that matter) tend to arrive with bags in a shuttle or private automobile. OCKLAWAHA
Ock..........trickle down theory is the reverse of what should be! But I am basing that thought on seeing just what is taking place not only in Orlando but with the discussion's regarding the FEC Corridor south! I think the potential there and with the track upgrades in place where something approaching a reasonable travel speed ( 80 to 100 mph) with little impact from local urban centers being transited through and I think we have a real potential winner! If we can ever get it up and running.......away we go! Then we can give some real thought to not only North but to West connections! Specific goal should be Miami in about 6 hrs flat..........which is about travel time via auto! At least that is what it used to take me and that was traveling speed limit plus....whatever, which for me is about 78 mph or if something passed me.......I would tuck in behind and away we went!
The FEC is the most positive thing we have heard in years, but allowing the "S" line to have all AMTRAK service dropped as well as the GULF WIND (Sunset) route. We REALLY screwed up, let's hope someone in Downtown and not just Tallahassee gained some wisdom.
OCKLAWAHA
I concur............we had options and allowed them to take wing! I have hopes but they are dim for sure. To this point "Downtown" as well as "Tallahassee" have not impressed me with their wisdow............I am hopefull that the so-called "Rail Dept" will have some long range vision, a plan as well as some expertise! If they get filled up political bufoons then we are doomed!