The question is, will Southern Living's clout make a lick of difference? Does the general populace of Jax give a hoot at all that this nationally-recognized asset is right under their noses, and maligned instead of celebrated?!?!
About 3 years ago, a high ranking exec at a large local corp said to me, "Springfield is happening without Jacksonville." Some days I see evidence in such strong support of that statement, I resent Jacksonville.
This article will surely make a difference by bringing MORE people from other places who "get it," but why can't Springfield get the committed support of regional residents, thought leaders and civic representatives?!?!
Two possible answers:
1. If Springfield turns around, there is significant fear that the social order of Jacksonville will change. (If the socio-economically challenged aren't isolated where they have been for decades, they might spread into the rest of Jacksonville's "nice" areas)
2. Resource competition. There isn't enough for all of Jax, so if Springfield gets enough financial support to complete the turnaround, other resource-recipients (social orgs or other areas of town like Riverside/Avondale, Murray Hill, Arlington) get inadequately funded in the short-term.
Just mho, but whether or not Springfield makes it totally depends on money, public and private, and regional acceptance of economic and ethnic diversity and tolerance. Can the Southern Living article affect these?
Zoo,
I think the Southern Living article will make a difference in many residents minds. For example, I post on City-Data often and the opinion of Springfield of most residents has been pretty darn low.
Many are people from other areas looking to move to Jax and are told to stay away and that it's dangerous.
It's not hard to argue opinion v. opinion, but when you have national recognition by a respected sources on the subject such as SL, well that's hard to argue with.
All of the various postive articles on the neighborhood by local media are often met with ridiculous comments as well....though it seems many subjects are ridiculed in those comment portions.
I do think that city leaders recognize the change. For example, the Duval County School Super-Indendant, whom is a friend, commented how my street was nicer than his own. The Weaver's, a prominant Avondale-judge, a prominant San Marco-attorny, etc are in the neighborhood not unfrequently to support The Sanctuary. Being personal friends with them as well (not the Weavers) they come throught the neighborhood and see the changes. In fact, during the Home Tour, the judge inquired about this Three Layers place that he has heard about and seen while driving through.
Stephen,
I don't think it's right to call people working hard on the behalf of the neighborhood "stupid" as you did in Reply #1. I also think it's curious that you somehow made the issue about SPAR, when that's not what the question was about at all.
Quote from: stephendare on December 21, 2009, 12:08:18 PM
When people work hard for a neighborhood I call them "hardworking" when people act stupidly and are unable to stop themselves, I call them stupid.
So using this logic, someone could call you "stupid" because they think you act stupidly and are not able to stop yourself?
Interesting.....
I don't get the sense of hopelessness from the city officials I have spoken too. Most, at least on a public face, see the comeback, and support the communities efforts (no matter which organizartion they happen under). Where I see the problem is in the day to day residents all over Jacksonville.
Talking about Springfield with someone from the mayors office, and speaking with someone who lives on in Mandarin, especially if you give them the anonymity that the web provides, are two very different perspectives.
What are the qualities of someone that "gets it?" - Matt M.
1) People that understand the homeless & low-income aren't to be feared. They aren't looking to rob, rape & kill every chance they get. Sure caution in any situation is a good idea, but these aren't murderers looking for thier chance.....
2) People that understand this revitalization in Springfield is not some kind of unique experiment. This has gone on and is going on all over the country, very successfully in many cases. This isn't some kooky group of people trying something brand new......this has been done over & over before.
3) People that appreciate all walks of life, different cultures, different lifestyles. They can befriend someone who is not like them (economically, racially, sexually, etc) with an open heart & mind.
4) People that value walkability of a neighborhood.
5) People that want to be part of a transformation.
6) People that enjoy "urban" living and all that it entails (proximity to Downtown, walkability, different types of people, etc).
7) People that appreciate living in a Historic district and the responsibility that comes with it.
Sure.
7) historic reference - check
6) urban living reference - check
5) transformation reference - check
4) walkability reference - Nope, but urban living often includes walkability
3) different walks of life reference - half check, it's alluded to.
2) urban revitalization is common reference - check, that's what the entire list is about.
1) homeless & low-income aren't monsters reference - half check, again it's alluded to but not stated plainly.
I have to say, it does seem like Jacksonvillians aren't very traveled. To the vast majority of folks, particularly natives, they have no concept that an area that is distressed can have a resurrection of prosperity. They also seem oblivious to the fact that now propersous areas can fall into decline. Although, Arlington seems to be making some believers of the latter.
This attitude isn't just in regards to Springfield but Downtown also. To be fair, one contributing factor to this thinking is the extended period of time it is taking for the transformation of both areas to occur, and the start and stops that have occurred. In larger cities like Atlanta, a neighborhood can gentrify almost completely in 5-10 years. No one doubts that it can happen, and instead everyone is wondering where it will happen next.
Riverside has made a big turnaround, but it had never got as downtrodded either.
As for the SL article, it certainly can't hurt, but I wouldn't let it be an excuse to think there is no more work to be done in terms of getting the word out. I think most negative thinking locals won't change their minds because of it, but newcomers will be more likely to 'kick the tires' and not just take local opinion as fact.
Quote from: zoo on December 21, 2009, 09:45:58 AM...........The question is, will Southern Living's clout make a lick of difference? Does the general populace of Jax give a hoot at all that this nationally-recognized asset is right under their noses, and maligned instead of celebrated?!?!..........
Define "give a hoot"......or "celebrated". What behaviors do you wish me to display to do those things?
My nose isn't that long for spring field to be under it. I'm not moving any more. I pass a lot of places I like to eat at before getting to Springfield. I'm not likely to go there to dine. Springfield doesn't have a boat ramp or gun range for me to go recreate at. I haven't had a project up there since 1995. So there really isn't a reason for me to drive there. I don't even drive up I-95 to the airport any more.
If Springfield is going to make a go at it the residents there will do it.
Quote from: fsu813 on December 21, 2009, 01:51:59 PM
What are the qualities of someone that "gets it?" - Matt M.
1) People that understand the homeless & low-income aren't to be feared. They aren't looking to rob, rape & kill every chance they get. Sure caution in any situation is a good idea, but these aren't murderers looking for thier chance.....
2) People that understand this revitalization in Springfield is not some kind of unique experiment. This has gone on and is going on all over the country, very successfully in many cases. This isn't some kooky group of people trying something brand new......this has been done over & over before.
3) People that appreciate all walks of life, different cultures, different lifestyles. They can befriend someone who is not like them (economically, racially, sexually, etc) with an open heart & mind.
4) People that value walkability of a neighborhood.
5) People that want to be part of a transformation.
6) People that enjoy "urban" living and all that it entails (proximity to Downtown, walkability, different types of people, etc).
7) People that appreciate living in a Historic district and the responsibility that comes with it.
The above is a very good and predominately accurate list. The problem as I have experienced it is not knowing what that list should be but getting people to actually live it. Many who live in Springfield often say they "get it" in the above sense, but then act the total opposite.
Basically, for Springfield to truly work, everyone, or at least the vast majority, truly have to "get it" 100%. Halfway only takes us halfway.
My personal opinion is that the SL article will make very little difference on it's own, it is how well people use the fact of the article that may have a positive impact later on.
From the start of the auction to probably 2003, Springfield got millions and millions and millions and millions of city dollars in the form of facade grants and SHARP grants. The neighborhood looks the way it does, prettied up and painted, because COJ made it so.
Quote from: sheclown on December 21, 2009, 06:01:35 PM
From the start of the auction to probably 2003, Springfield got millions and millions and millions and millions of city dollars in the form of facade grants and SHARP grants.
Fascade grants are for commercial establishments, right? If so, I would like to know where that money went. Other than the Klutho building (was that before 2003?), I don't remember much improvements in that relm during that time. Can you give some examples.
It was commercial and residential.
Most all of the money was used for residential. Each facade grant was for $25.000 and there were (I would guess 100 of them??) Then the SHARP grants were for renovations to the interior and stop-gap money (the difference between the cost of the renovations and the final value of the home). Joe and I did at least a dozen facade grant jobs and maybe almost as many SHARP grant jobs. And we were only one of many contractors working in the neighborhood at the time.
The Epicurean got a commercial facade grant for $7500. Some of that was matching funds. I don't know of any other commercial facade grants, but I'm sure there were more of them, although not nearly as many as residential.
These are just guesses based on being around at the time and doing some of the work. I can only guess. On the block where I used to live, 70% of the houses got grants of some sort within a three year period.
When you are calculating the federal, state, city funds channeled into Springfield, you should really include the 1998 Auction that kicked off everything. From what I remember, an average of about 45,000 per house for ten houses? That would be about a half a mil by itself.
I believe only five or six places got the old commercial facade grants. They were not easy to get and because of some of the other requirements from the overlay, some of the costs were very high and the extra cash was not available.
When people say that they have issues with Jacksonville over Springfield, they need to be reminded that none of what has been accomplished so far would have happened without the millions that Jacksonville gave and channeled through here. SPAR Council did none of that. SPAR did very little and HSCC, while involved, could only do so much. It was the likes of the Historic Department, Joel, Lisa and Helen at the time as well as the folks from the planning department like Travis and his bosses (at the time it was a woman who was a good friend of Springfield) and peers (many who have moved on since then). And many, many individuals from the community.
Saying that Springfield is happening without Jacksonville is a very untrue statement. Saying that you resent Jacksonville for that is very selfish . The truth is, the opposite is very true. Springfield still stands only for Jacksonville and the millions provided. It is now up to us to finish the job.
This is not to say that there are not issues at times with some of the people whom we must deal within the city government of Jacksonville, but credit must be given where it is due. And, as some of the more recent information has shown us, we must even watch the very people within the organizations charged with serving Springfield for they are not always serving Springfield’s best interests either.
My best holiday wishes to you, strider and sheclown, too.
Oops, forgot Stephen, and of course all the other Springfielders, Downtowners and Jacksonvillians... Merry Christmas.
This was the orginal question:
"...but why can't Springfield get the committed support of regional residents, though leaders and civic representatives?!?!"
I think they are just waitng to see which way the wind blows, which is often the way it is in politics.
Let it snow... let it snow... let it snow!
Quote from: fsu813 on December 22, 2009, 11:44:51 AM
This was the orginal question:
"...but why can't Springfield get the committed support of regional residents, though leaders and civic representatives?!?!"
I think they are just waitng to see which way the wind blows, which is often the way it is in politics.
No, Springfield has had this support. Perhaps we need to ask why we lost it, if we did or perhaps, what are we asking for that they can not support. Are some asking for the wrong things?
Perhaps we all can find a way to work together rather than at odds this coming new year.
Oh, and Happy Holidays to all, even Zoo!
"...but why can't Springfield get the committed support of regional residents, though leaders and civic representatives?!?!"
I wanted to chime in here and mention that longtime residents of Jacksonville of every stripe (different cultures, races, economic backgrounds) "know" Springfield to be a "bad area." My dad's grandparents lived there, and he saw the neighborhood deteriorate firsthand. I have a couple friends with friends or family that live in Springfield, one of whom told me (when I was looking for my first home recently) that he "wouldn't even let his dog live over there."
I guess you could split hairs over "historic Springfield" versus the larger area most of Jax considers "Springfield," but the fact is most people who grew up in Jax still see Springfield as a "bad area" and aren't going to give it any support. I think for the neighborhood to really catch on, the people there now are going to have to make it happen, and hope for an influx of either out-of-towners or open minded locals willing to take a risk. It will take a long time to change those perceptions. Most people you talk to don't know anything about any of the neighborhood groups over there - they simply equate the area with wandering drunks, crack houses, and stray dogs.
(For the record, I wasn't willing to take the risk when my fiancee strolled the area briefly and decided she didn't feel safe. She is from Italy and has lived here for about 9 years which I don't think makes her a "longtime resident.")
in my opinion most of the people who live in SPR really could care less what the longtime residents of Jacksontucky think of Springfield. I'm pretty sure that I'm the only one at my country club that lives there. Most of the people who buy homes in SPR aren't into keeping up with the Jones' that is for certain.
Oh I heard all the bad things too when I was looking for a home 10 years ago. Its so "unsafe", crime is "rampant" "I wouldn't let my dog live there" but my wife and I realized that most of the people telling us those things had never really been over there, so we found a cool house and have loved it. We still wonder where all the "bad" stuff is and where all the rampant crime is and we still enjoy it after all these years. I'm sure all the families with children in SPR are wondering where all this crime is too. Buts its ok, I don't live in SPR to impress anyone, I like old homes and my neighbors are pretty cool. Everyone has got their idea of what they want for a home and Springfield isn't it for some, just like cookie cutter tract housing isn't for those who would choose Springfield. Its really just a preference, but the perception by Jacksontuckians about crime in Historic Springfield is kind of funny as their city has the highest crime rate of any city in the state, go figure. Merry Christmas.
Outside of the fact that we all hate Springfield, I don't see where the problem is?
OCKLAWAHA
I've been looking casually at a couple of homes for sale. My girlfriend and I decided to take an "after dark" drive through Springfield. We parked on the street at 10:00, walked around for a few blocks, saw the houses we were looking at, and left. Never harassed. Never felt like we were threatened, etc. Of course, I know better than to take advice from TU commenters about Springfield.
Again though, it is a perception problem. The reality is much different. It's tough to break through the noise of generations maligning springfield as where the pushers and the hookers all live (every damned one of them).
The same holds true with the urban core. Never felt out of place or bothered by it -- of course, I have only lived here for five years and don't know any better. Homeless people are just that -- people without homes.
FWIW -- I now live in a gated condo community on the southside and would be happy to leave if I could just break even.
Quote from: Karl_Pilkington on December 23, 2009, 11:08:27 AM............. residents of Jacksontucky think of Springfield. ........... Merry Christmas...........
Let's see you want us to feel good about Springfield. So to do that you call us names?
Merry Christmas to you just the same.
I already know what you think of SPR so I'm not one that is concerned about trying to make anyone feel a certain way and yes, its my pet name for your lovely city, have a sense of humor.. geesh.
^ I'm glad to know that you already know what we think. Can you also predict, or rather tell us from your vast knowledge and mind reading skills, when the economy is going to officially change?
^sorry concern for economic growth is not part of my repertoire, could care less about that too.
:)
I don't need to have my neighborhood celebrated; not maligned would be nice, but I've given up defending why I live where I live. I love my house, I love Springfield. Last night I met a new neighbor and later came home to a huge group of carolers wandering the streets for the sheer joy of it. I can't explain to others why that is more important to me than this nebulous quality of "safety" everyone keeps grasping for.
it is a developers ploy to get everyone to move into their overpriced cookie cutter neighborhoods that lack the architectural character that Springfield has. if you can't build it, knock it and hope people jump on your bandwagon so you can earn more money from building and selling crap houses.
I agree with Redglittercoffin - it's mainly a perception problem. As a lifelong resident, I've never felt unsafe in downtown Jax, on the Northside, or dare I say it, in Springfield. (I tried to explain the "perception" thing to my fiancee... she wasn't buying.)
We ended up moving into an older neighborhood full of 60 year old brick-and-plaster homes. Every weekend we see different neighbors outside, working in their lawns and improving their homes (painting, roof repairs, etc). It's nice and I don't regret our decision. Friends have turned up their noses because it's right near the Hart bridge, and there is some perception that the surrounding area isn't safe, but who cares? We like it, and she feels comfortable and safe, so I'm happy.
I hope Springfield rebounds and becomes the premier neighborhood in Jacksonville again. But it'll be probably another generation before those negative perceptions go away.
if you like it, go for it . . . who cares what other people think if you are happy, in the end, that is all that matters when choosing a home.
Quote from: hooplady on December 23, 2009, 12:42:06 PM
I don't need to have my neighborhood celebrated; not maligned would be nice, but I've given up defending why I live where I live. I love my house, I love Springfield. Last night I met a new neighbor and later came home to a huge group of carolers wandering the streets for the sheer joy of it. I can't explain to others why that is more important to me than this nebulous quality of "safety" everyone keeps grasping for.
Amen Sister. Exactly the same way I feel.
BTW, we tried to serenade you last night, but you were nowhere to be found :-/
Quote from: Bativac on December 23, 2009, 12:58:37 PM
I agree with Redglittercoffin - it's mainly a perception problem. As a lifelong resident, I've never felt unsafe in downtown Jax, on the Northside, or dare I say it, in Springfield. (I tried to explain the "perception" thing to my fiancee... she wasn't buying.)
We ended up moving into an older neighborhood full of 60 year old brick-and-plaster homes. Every weekend we see different neighbors outside, working in their lawns and improving their homes (painting, roof repairs, etc). It's nice and I don't regret our decision. Friends have turned up their noses because it's right near the Hart bridge, and there is some perception that the surrounding area isn't safe, but who cares? We like it, and she feels comfortable and safe, so I'm happy.
I hope Springfield rebounds and becomes the premier neighborhood in Jacksonville again. But it'll be probably another generation before those negative perceptions go away.
There are a lot of Springfielders who post on this forum, so sometimes it may sound like we expect the world to revolve around us. I dont believe thats really the case. We just want people to stop the open hostilities.
There are plenty of great historic, or nearly historic communities worth saving and talking about. Empire point, St Nicholas among them.
Quote from: Dan B on December 23, 2009, 01:26:39 PM
BTW, we tried to serenade you last night, but you were nowhere to be found :-/
Now see there? That's what I'm talkin' about! I was just coming back from Tom's and must have just missed you leaving Erick's house. But I heard you and you sounded great!
As someone who grew up in Mandarin and has lived at the beach, I can say with certainty that most of the Mandarin, Southside, and Beaches crowd have absolutely no clue where and what Springfield even is. My parents and a few friends were baffled when I told them I was looking at buying a home in Springfield. Every time someone is skeptical of Springfield I ask them where it is. They say oh I don't know somewhere north of downtown, or over by the Jags stadium. They literally have no clue it exists and how nice it is. We are talking about educated and well traveled people too.
Here's a good story to give people an idea of the suburban Jacksonville mindset. I played on the Mandarin High soccer team back in 2000. We had a game over at Lee High and got lost in Riverside/Avondale at night. Half the guys on the team were blabbing about how we were lost in the ghetto and were scared for the bus to pull over to ask for directions. I had spent a lot of time in Riverside/Avondale and stood up for the neighborhood saying that it is one of the nicest parts of Jacksonville to which the whole team just laughed and thought I was crazy. It wasn't until the coach stepped in and said that I was right and that were surrounded by million dollar homes that they realized there was truth in what I had said.
People that grow up in suburban Jacksonville (particularly Mandarin and Northern St. Johns) are conditioned to think that everything north and west of the river is either ghetto and redneckville. Now I'm sure perceptions have changed and are still changing, but a lot of that mentality still exists.
When I showed my Dad and younger brother the home that I'm buying a couple days ago they were absolutely floored at how nice it is and were very impressed with the neighborhood overall. My Dad travels quite a bit to Europe for work and loves urban and walkable places, yet he had no idea how nice Springfield was and the things that are happening here. Clearly there is a perception issue in with the neighborhood.
I think Zoo's original post raises a lot of important questions and will follow up on some of those ideas when I get the time.
ya know....having a great, all-inclusive neighborhood website would do wonders for "perception".
just saying.......=)
Quote from: Dan B on December 23, 2009, 01:28:51 PM
There are plenty of great historic, or nearly historic communities worth saving and talking about. Empire point, St Nicholas among them.
I'll give a thumbs up to St. Nicholas as well. Another neighborhood I just stumbled upon a few years ago and thought it would be a nice quiet place to live.
Maybe I am just blissfully ignorant.
North Shore
OK we now have some outstanding press. Is there anything in the works to keep this going. what are your thoughts?
Springfield could try to became the poster child for the new cash for caulkers program once the feds put the details together. Maybe the president could recognize us for our efforts using the program.
from what I remember from many decades ago, Springfield already had a cash for caulk program in place . . . but the spelling was different.
I used to take it personally until I realized people from Jacksonville think every area of town other than the one they live in, is the ghetto. My kids played soccer for years at different clubs including JYSC on St. Augustine road. The fields are blocks from San Marco and they had teammates there that lived in mansions on the river. My youngest wanted to play at the Westside Soccer Club with schoolmates and my husband and I found it hilarious when the boys from that side of town were afraid of playing at JYSC when we had games there and claimed that the Southside was "the ghetto".