Another example of the one-dimensional thinking of our area transportation "planners". Do you think that, for even one second, they talked about a mass transit solution?QuoteThe Florida Department of Transportation added extra right-hand turn lanes from I-295 onto Blanding a few years ago. That made it a little bit better, but not enough, Corrigan said.
The councilman hopes two projects on Collins Road will get traffic off of Blanding. The city is now widening Collins from two to four lanes from Rampart Road to Blanding for $25.2 million, and the project includes an overpass over I-295.
That project will conclude late next year.
Also in 2010, the Florida Department of Transportation plans to begin construction on a new interchange at Collins Road that will connect to I-295. The $136 million project is scheduled to begin in June and will connect to the overpass now being built by the city, sometime in late 2014.
James Bennett, an FDOT development engineer, said the Collins Road improvements should help.
http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2009-12-19/story/blanding_boulevard_at_interstate_295_voted_worst_jacksonville_intersecti
I love the juxtaposition of quotes by Commissioner Conkey that point up the obtuse thinking of our public officials. First, he robotically cites the Outer Beltway as the universal solution to all of Jax/Clay traffic issues and then says "we need to work to get traffic off the road". Now, how does one do that by building more roads?
His thinking reminds me of getting rid of the pink ring in "Cat in the Hat". Just move the problem around, ad infinitum, and hope no one realizes it really isn't ever being solved. Why our politicians make poor leaders.QuoteClay County Commissioner Doug Conkey, whose Orange Park district is near the intersection, said the planned Outer Beltway that would connect Interstate 10 in Duval County to Interstate 95 in St. Johns County could also get traffic off the road.
Adding additional turn lanes from northbound Blanding onto I-295 southbound and working to better time the traffic lights in the area could also help ease traffic, Conkey said.
“Unfortunately this is a problem that has existed for a long time,†Conkey said. “You can’t go back in time to correct the mistakes that were made, so we need to work to get traffic off the road.â€
More blind bufoons elected! No vision........no plan! Kinda reminds me of the Mayor and the Council! Politicians are just concerned with getting re-elected .....not serving the people who put them into office!
Quote from: CS Foltz on December 19, 2009, 03:18:04 PM
More blind bufoons elected! No vision........no plan! Kinda reminds me of the Mayor and the Council! Politicians are just concerned with getting re-elected .....not serving the people who put them into office!
at this point, I challenge you to do better!
Quote from: stjr on December 19, 2009, 12:21:11 PM
First, he robotically cites the Outer Beltway as the universal solution to all of Jax/Clay traffic issues and then says "we need to work to get traffic off the road". Now, how does one do that by building more roads?
simple...when you build a new road, traffic switches to it!
There is no question that the Outer Beltway WILL minimize traffic on Blanding near I-295....that, and the replacement of the Shands Bridge are about the only redeeing qualities of the project.
Personally, I don't think we will ever build Blanding out of congestion. As long as we keep sprawl development going, new development will quickly eat up the extra capacity created by road widenings and new facilities. Imo, start considering alternative modes as the top priority. For those who still choose to sit in traffic when viable alternatives exist, so be it.
I agree Lake....but think about it, there's sprawl all over FL...the reason Clay has the worst commute times in the state is because Blanding is just about the ONLY way in/out...
Most cities have a grid network...so expanding the Clay County road network (vs. adding lanes) will help disperse the traffic.
^I agree, as long as it's a grid with parallel facilities not spaced miles apart. Given the amount of money it would take to build a usable grid, I'd still favor implementing an alternative mode first.
Quote from: thelakelander on December 19, 2009, 09:51:27 PM
Personally, I don't think we will ever build Blanding out of congestion. As long as we keep sprawl development going, new development will quickly eat up the extra capacity created by road widenings and new facilities. Imo, start considering alternative modes as the top priority. For those who still choose to sit in traffic when viable alternatives exist, so be it.
Right on, Lake. We have tried building out of congestion since WWII and it's never done anything but bring on even more of the same issues. We need to realize this is a losing battle and move on to mass transit solutions.Quote from: tufsu1 on December 19, 2009, 09:56:31 PM
Most cities have a grid network...so expanding the Clay County road network (vs. adding lanes) will help disperse the traffic.
Tufsu, at times you express the same concerns as others among us over continued road building and urban sprawl, and then you express the above in an apparent contradiction. The point I am trying to highlight here is when is "expanding the ... road network" nothing more than perpetuating urban sprawl and road congestion issues and serving as an excuse not to direct resources toward mass transit solutions? I suggest we are past that point already and this is just more coal on the fire.
tufsu1 I accept! First thing I would do is declare a moratorium on all road building/interchanges and new construction for the next 3 years. I would then set that money aside into a Fund to get mass transit up and running as rapidly as possible. I know where there is $161 Million dollars to start with and not sure what the projected total is for the next 3 years but would guess is is fairly substancial!
Quote from: stjr on December 20, 2009, 01:24:12 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on December 19, 2009, 09:51:27 PM
Personally, I don't think we will ever build Blanding out of congestion. As long as we keep sprawl development going, new development will quickly eat up the extra capacity created by road widenings and new facilities. Imo, start considering alternative modes as the top priority. For those who still choose to sit in traffic when viable alternatives exist, so be it.
[/quote Building up the grid is fine and dandy but I need to point out that their destination is Jacksonville and not matter how many ways you have to get to here,urban sprawl will negate any road improvement so your roads are limited ultimately. Build mass transit system and relieve congestion! Build more roads and contribute to congestion ......what is so difficult to grasp here? One way in and out, create another.....only one that can carry more than one passenger at a time in a cost effective manner!
If people really want to go with only road expansion projects to solve congestion, the only way it would work long term is to institute a building moratorium along with them. That way, the additional capacity created won't immediately be eliminated by new unsustainable automobile based development. At the same time, heavily incentivize transit friendly infill and redevelopment inside of the I-295/9A beltway. However, this is a change in thinking that Jax would never go for.
lake I agree! As long as JTA is leading the charge with their version of "Mass Transit" we the people are screwed! This will only spend alot of the taxpayers money and ultimately prove to be a waste! It upsets me that we have such narrow minded blind leadership controlling our future!
CS...you continually harp on our City's leadership for not listening/serving their constituents.
What do you think the reaction of the general populace in Jax. if we took all our road money for the next 3 years and put it towards transit?
You have a few issues with Blanding Blvd/I295 traffic that most people seem to ignore.
1. Its in Duval County. For quite a while, the lights at Argyle, Youngerman, I295 were timed differently than Wells Rd. You basically drove to a stop waiting on the light, nothing else.
2. You have dumb ass planners and designers that allow an extra turn lane into Starbucks on Blanding @ Youngerman, rather than making traffic turn at the light. Bright idea there.
3. Blanding/295 traffic is not all Clay County. There is a ton of Argyle Traffic (90% Duval County last I checked)
4. The good ole boy network is alive and well in Clay County. We are trying to vote these idiots out.
5. The outer beltway should have created a new bridge @ 220 and US-17. However, interests in both Clay and St Johns County created enough distraction to push it to the Shands Bridge location.
6. Argyle residents helped kill a Wells Rd extension which would have connected Wells Rd and Argyle. Thus allowing all of those mall shoppers a way to avoid Blanding altogether.
7. A proposed overpass between Wells Rd and Collins Rd over I-295 east of the OP Mall was killed off as well.
=========================
I have sent ideas to FDOT on Blanding traffic a few times and was basically told that I am an idiot, and that it would not work.
here are a couple of those thoughts:
1. Install breakable lane barriers onto Blanding Blvd for the right lane only from about the Clay/Duval line up to I-295, the only opening being @ Argyle and Youngerman. This prevents idiots from trying to go up to 295 and merging into traffic, causing backups. (the same idiot who approved the Starbuck's turn lane laughed at this idea).
2. Change the light cycle @ youngerman to a much slower one during the morning rush hour. The only traffic from Youngerman to Blanding @ 6AM-9AM is commuters turning onto Youngerman from Argyle, trying to bypass traffic.
3. Create a on-ramp only feature from Wells Rd onto I-295 southbound. This alleviates a ton of traffic from the neighborhoods of Orange Park getting onto Blanding. This could be easily done east of the mall where there are a few closed dealerships.
4. Get light rail, or even JTA bus with a direct route to SJTC and Southpoint from Orange Park. Sure I can take the express from OP, then take a connector to Gate Parkway/Southpoint/Baymeadows. But it will take too long. I would have to leave my house @ 5:45AM, sit in the parking lot @ KMart in OP, catch the bus to the FCCJ Station, arriving at 7:15AM. Then catch a transfer from Rosa Parks station over to the Kings St Station to catch SS6, hopefully by 7:40AM. This would get me to SJTC @ 8:30AM. Not bad, only 2.5 hours to go from OP to SJTC.
Or, I can take WS91 from Youngerman and Blanding (after having driven through the worst of the traffic already) and catch WS91 @ 7:10AM, get to the Avenues @ 8:04AM, catch S1 @ 9:03AM (wow, only a 1 hr wait) and get to SJTC area @ 9:30ish.
Nah, I'll drive my car for 45 min-1 hr each way and come and go when I want to.
Why did Argyle residents kill a potential direct connection to Wells Rd?
Don't expect the recent public chorus directed to TPO singing the praises of "public transportation" to really grab much pavement for a long time.
Almost as if by magic,the beltway and other long established growth dreams are now firmly placed.
Erroneous claims and images of "alleviation" abound,thanks to an ignorant public that always,just when "too late",exhibits stunned incomprehension."Alleviation" benefit of only temporary effect.Smoke & mirrors.
A stand alone Brannon Chaffee was always promoted as "alleviation" for Blanding.Impressive average daily traffic numbers were in fact based in large degree due to the new development B/C would generate.(And who in this world would ever promote a new highway that would not assume expanded/vested devopment??)
Who remembers Mayor Delaney exclaimng we could not build our way out of congestion....only to soon after interject key support in the Florida DOT Brannon/Chaffee permit application placed before the US Corp of Engineers and Water Management District? The DOT application was erroneous in the premise that the B/C project was "stand alone" with 'no plans at this time' for extension.
I have seen Argyle residents in tears at public hearings concerning proposed roadways that would affect the broad Argyle wetland belts...and their back yards.Many have wisely moved the hell out.
Quote from: thelakelander on December 20, 2009, 12:16:30 PM
Why did Argyle residents kill a potential direct connection to Wells Rd?
Between the Argyle Community groups and other things.
Here's a great read as to why it was "killed" and opposed.
http://www.neighborhoodlink.com/Raymur_Villas/topics/186315
Notice the argument was that the new Mall and Eateries in Argyle down by Oakleaf would alleviate Blanding Traffic, as well as Branan Field/Chaffee. yeah, that didn't happen.
And here is the BCC report about roads in Clay County from 2002 (this included the Wells Rd Connector)
http://www.claycountygov.com/Departments/Engineering/County_Needs_Revenues_Study/TAC%20Report%20to%20BCC.pdf (http://www.claycountygov.com/Departments/Engineering/County_Needs_Revenues_Study/TAC%20Report%20to%20BCC.pdf)
10 Million to connect Wells Rd and Argyle Forest Blvd in clay.
http://www.coj.net/NR/rdonlyres/etqlk6rhvpx7urqadd5jw3fmv3bolynjp2222maaphixdpirqkjpv36skohniguzqesgjh7cuu4sghi5dcnlad3vkla/J-SW+VISION+Transportation+Plan.pdf (http://www.coj.net/NR/rdonlyres/etqlk6rhvpx7urqadd5jw3fmv3bolynjp2222maaphixdpirqkjpv36skohniguzqesgjh7cuu4sghi5dcnlad3vkla/J-SW+VISION+Transportation+Plan.pdf)
12million in Duval.
Quote from: north miami on December 20, 2009, 01:42:16 PM
I have seen Argyle residents in tears at public hearings concerning proposed roadways that would affect the broad Argyle wetland belts...and their back yards.Many have wisely moved the hell out.
NIMBYism at it's best. They continue to shop in Clay County, want to be associated in Clay County (ask many Argyle residents where they live and most say Orange Park or Argyle never hear them say westside.) Last time I checked, there was only a few neighborhoods actually in Clay County in Argyle, 90% is Duval.
Heaven forbid they work with Clay County to try and get stuff done, instead they block everything they can.
Quote from: jandar on December 20, 2009, 01:57:46 PM
Quote from: north miami on December 20, 2009, 01:42:16 PM
I have seen Argyle residents in tears at public hearings concerning proposed roadways that would affect the broad Argyle wetland belts...and their back yards.Many have wisely moved the hell out.
NIMBYism at it's best. They continue to shop in Clay County, want to be associated in Clay County (ask many Argyle residents where they live and most say Orange Park or Argyle never hear them say westside.) Last time I checked, there was only a few neighborhoods actually in Clay County in Argyle, 90% is Duval.
Heaven forbid they work with Clay County to try and get stuff done, instead they block everything they can.
Time wounds all heels.Opting for Clay in lieu of big bad Duval is proving to be a ripoff.Many should reconsider a move to the First Coast.
Quote from: jandar on December 20, 2009, 01:57:46 PM
Quote from: north miami on December 20, 2009, 01:42:16 PM
I have seen Argyle residents in tears at public hearings concerning proposed roadways that would affect the broad Argyle wetland belts...and their back yards.Many have wisely moved the hell out.
NIMBYism at it's best. They continue to shop in Clay County, want to be associated in Clay County (ask many Argyle residents where they live and most say Orange Park or Argyle never hear them say westside.) Last time I checked, there was only a few neighborhoods actually in Clay County in Argyle, 90% is Duval.
Heaven forbid they work with Clay County to try and get stuff done, instead they block everything they can.
oh its even better than that jandar....those folks in Argyle screaming about lost wetlands probably live in homes that were build on filled in wetlands and former farm land....hypocrisy at its best
but that's ok...north miami's answer is to close the door on Northeast Florida and not allow anyione else in!
tufsu1..........I don't remember a whole lot of outcry when the Boy Blunder decided to put some fee's on the populace! Storm Water Fee for one...........now since alot of people can't afford to pay for it, it's being included in your Home Owners Tax! Now that is a really chicken excrement way to circumvent the voters will don't you think? That is not the only one but this thread is about Blanding and the $161 Million we get to spend on exchange upgrade and lane widening! If this is money coming out of the City's coffers that is one thing but I believe this comes from the State which is still our money! Glad to help out Westside and Clay County but that does not help the mass transit situation one iota! Jacksonville needs someone leading from the top and the Boy Blunder continually proves he is a waste of oxygen. We need someone with vision, a plan and some business acumen that is willing to clean house if necessary and start over if needed. Too many buffoons and figureheads in charge (JTA/JEA.....I could go on and on but won't!)
Quote from: tufsu1 on December 20, 2009, 07:35:16 PM
oh its even better than that jandar....those folks in Argyle screaming about lost wetlands probably live in homes that were build on filled in wetlands and former farm land....hypocrisy at its best
I know for a fact that many of those homesites were wetlands. I grew up on the westside and remember hunting and running a 4x4 in those swamps/fields.
I agree jandar! Built a T Mobile cell site smack in the middle of it...............never could figure out just how they managed to get a permit to do so..........compound was built up and the pad was allmost 4' above ground level! Thats alot of concrete for something 20 x 20!
Another $100 million interchange for Jax to begin and FDOT already admits it won't solve the problem! So, why not spend the money on something that will, like mass transit? ???
No shortage of money for FDOT's #1 priority it appears: Roads - whether they work or not. Not one word about mass transit or even bike lanes.
And, FDOT is saving almost $38 million with this new number over their budgeted amount. Any word on reallocating it to mass transit projects? None.
How do you spell FDOT: "R-O-A-D-S". FDOT is a clone of JTA.QuoteCollins Road interchange on I-295 hopes to relieve Blanding traffic
Source URL: http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2010-06-16/story/collins-road-interchange-i-295-hopes-relieve-blanding-traffic
By Larry Hannan
If congestion at the intersection of Blanding Boulevard and Interstate 295 is a nightmare, then a planned interchange less than a mile away on Collins Road could allow motorists some peace of mind.
At a proposed $98.6 million, the Jacksonville interchange would connect Collins to I-295 and keep motorists off Blanding where backups are common. Northbound motorists often have to wait through multiple light changes before getting onto I-295 or continuing north.
The Florida Department of Transportation expects to accept bids next month, begin construction by the end of the year and be finished by the end of 2014. The project also includes improvements to Blanding and the construction of four new lanes on I-295, two in each direction, that will be limited to motorists exiting at Blanding or Collins.
The idea is to separate traffic getting off I-295 from traffic driving through, department development engineer James Bennett said.
Will Lyons, the department’s consultant project manager, said the lanes are essential to the design because the two interchanges will be so close.
“The key became getting cars that were going to Collins or Blanding and getting them off the regular I-295 lanes well before arriving at either interchange,†Lyons said.
Called “collector-distributor†lanes, they will have restricted access. Northbound motorists will have to get on them just west of U.S. 17, and southbound motorists will have to get on just south of Morse Avenue.
Motorists getting off I-295 at Collins will still have direct access to Blanding.
“I think you’ll see people traveling into Jacksonville using this new interchange instead of the Blanding one,†said City Councilman Michael Corrigan, whose district includes both intersections.
Cars traveling southbound can also access Rampart Road and Argyle Forest Boulevard.
Last year Times-Union readers overwhelmingly picked Blanding and I-295 as the worst intersection in Northeast Florida in an unscientific survey.
Traffic counts from the Florida Department of Transportation show that south of the interchange on Blanding the average daily traffic is 83,000 cars a day, while north of the interchange there are 38,500 cars.
The project should help somewhat, as the ramp from northbound Blanding to I-295 southbound will get a second lane and there will be a second left-hand-turn lane from I-295 southbound to Blanding northbound. Lyons concedes that Blanding will remain a congested roadway despite these improvements.
From Collins Road to Wells Road, Blanding motorists must drive through eight traffic lights and also deal with about 10 access points to stores and restaurants that don’t have lights. The state will look at improving traffic signals as part of this project, but it’s unlikely that it can solve all the problems, Lyons said.
The cost of building the new interchange has dropped. Last year the Transportation Department estimated it would cost $136 million, but the recession has lowered construction costs and led contractors to bid less, Lyons said
Jacksonville recently finished widening Collins from two to four lanes from Rampart to Blanding for $29.4 million, and the project included the overpass over I-295 where the interchange will be built. It also included new sidewalks, curbs and gutters, city spokeswoman Jennifer Savage said.
This has been in the works for years but of course it won't solve anything. Widening roads only creates more capacity for extra cars. Its sort of like having a diet of beer, snickers bars, pasta and hamburgers and no exercise and wondering why your weight increases as a result. While a Collins interchange offers an alternative route to Oakleaf and Argyle Forest, with no second north/south corridor in the immediate area, Blanding will still see congestion.
I did think of all of you as I read this. It makes you shake your head when they say it "may help some". That just sounds idiotic to me, and I am not one of those folks on here pounding the drum for mass transit. You guys just be right that they are clueless.
Like Lake said, without another N/S corridor, Blanding/US17 will always be backed up.
Even if you put in mass transit, there will still be traffic.
Sometimes you look around at intersections around Jax and wonder who the hell thought of the idea.
JTB/95, Kernan/Beach/Atlantic, Blanding/295/Argyle, etc...
Quote from: stjr on June 16, 2010, 07:39:20 PM
Another $100 million interchange for Jax to begin and FDOT already admits it won't solve the problem! So, why not spend the money on something that will, like mass transit? ???
do you have any empirical data that shows mass transit will solve "the problem"?
as to your suggestion that FDOT take the savings and allocate them to transit....I've mentioned many times that most transportation funds are in categories...so often road $ and transit $ can not be swapped
I don't understand why we keep throwing money into roads to help commuters drive into Jacksonville to work. I realize it is state money but hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars have been spent on new interchanges in Jacksonville in just the past few years since I have lived here. It blows my mind! If you don't like your commute, then move closer to your job! I'm fine with people choosing a suburban life but why do we pander to these folks. A longer commute and traffic backups is something you accept when you choose to live a good distance from your job. The state wants to stimulate local economies but building a Collins Road interchange won't change much investment in the area and as admitted in the article won't really alleviate traffic. In fact, if we look at past experiences, it will probably make it worse! There are still daily backups at the 95/295 interchange and also at the 9A/Butler interchange. There will always be backups at 95/Butler even though they are proposing hundreds of millions of dollars to try and fix that too. It will never happen! We will never have enough roads to guarantee everyone an easy commute!
Think of how many brand new elementary schools we could build that were energy efficient and would save money, or how many more teachers and police officers we could hire, or how many small businesses we could jump start, or the mass transit system we could build with the money we throw at roads!
METRO JAX writers! My suggestion for an article is a look at the money the city and state have invested in building roads in Duval County in the past 10 years. Your total will blow people's minds and maybe others will join me in saying enough is enough! I'm not ok with the way my tax money is being allocated. I want it spent on other priorities.
Quote from: tufsu1 on June 16, 2010, 08:50:01 PM
Quote from: stjr on June 16, 2010, 07:39:20 PM
Another $100 million interchange for Jax to begin and FDOT already admits it won't solve the problem! So, why not spend the money on something that will, like mass transit? ???
do you have any empirical data that shows mass transit will solve "the problem"?
Com'on, Tufsu. It's common sense, an alien concept to most planners in Northeast Florida. Beside, FDOT admits the new interchange won't fix it. So, why bother with that? Do you have a better, cost effective, alternative?Quoteas to your suggestion that FDOT take the savings and allocate them to transit....I've mentioned many times that most transportation funds are in categories...so often road $ and transit $ can not be swapped
This is pure idiocy. Thanks, Tufsu, for pointing out once again the absence of common sense. Any business reserves the right to re-prioritize its plans based on facts and circumstances. This rigidity in planning and process is more evidence of the lack of vision, imagination, creativity, responsiveness, and flexibility in our government agencies and why they continuously fail to deliver appropriate and timely results.Quote from: brainstormer on June 16, 2010, 08:55:18 PM
I don't understand why we keep throwing money into roads to help commuters drive into Jacksonville to work.
METRO JAX writers! My suggestion for an article is a look at the money the city and state have invested in building roads in Duval County in the past 10 years. Your total will blow people's minds and maybe others will join me in saying enough is enough! I'm not ok with the way my tax money is being allocated. I want it spent on other priorities.
+5 Brainstormer. Maybe the effective followup punch to advocating for mass transit is showing how wasteful spending on its road building competition is. I doubt most citizens have a clue as to the real cost of building and maintaining our road network and how it sucks tremendous resources from not only mass transit, but education, public safety, social services, parks, etc. By splitting funds (i.e. our taxes) between federal, state, and local agencies and allocating various projects among them, we have done a good job of confusing and obfuscating the true total costs of these projects. I join in your challenge to MJ to put it out there for all to see.
Some Ockvervations:
(http://www.ntsb.gov/publictn/2010/MAB1001/1.jpg)
Check out the waterways!
1. CLAY COUNTY, is at a distinct disadvantage in connecting to Duval, it's not their fault either... Let's call it GOD! Imagine your planning the "escape relief highway" for Clay County, which we all know is to say metro-Orange Park. Between Blanding and Roosevelt you blow a 14 lane FREEway across 295 and the County Line, the money is FREE and everyone supports it, so where you going to go now bub? Straight North and you wipe out the Ortega Hills, and other sundry developments along the river and even it you got past them your still coming to a dead stop just north of Yukon. The Ortega puts a squeeze on the roadways as you progress north ending at Ortega and Ortega Forest and the Roosevelt or Grand Avenue Bridges. Merge it into 17 and you just transfered the Clay mess to Jacksonville, no relief and no better. If you choose to go down the west side of the Ortega River, you going to hit the wall well before Cedar Hills as the Cedar River now angles all roads and traffic NORTHWEST! Hardly a downtown shortcut.
The only 2 things that could be addressed on the North End of Clay County are Fixed Mass Transit in the form of rail, and pulling away the Duval-North traffic from the Duval-East. With the Buckman bridge being at the choke
point on the Northeast corner of the County the traffic must be split up, the choke that can't be moved due to waterways and development to the north. However ALL of the traffic from Middleburg/Flemming Island and the South half of Orange Park that is bound for the Jacksonville Southside could be diverted before entering OP.
Frankly another River crossing on the South End of Orange Park/Flemming Island would do more to relieve the inbound rush to Duval every morning, more so if it would tie into I-795 (9-B) or a similar connector to disburse the traffic on the St. Johns/Duval side with a 4-lane San Jose/SR13, I-95 connection and I-295 connection.
(http://lh5.ggpht.com/_bQsuhPJduqQ/TBbzguwcCrI/AAAAAAAACm0/VqidHwPZscU/s400/May-June%202010%20Bob%20Mann%20234.JPG)
It's a choice... but it's NOT A FIX.
2. MASS TRANSIT: WILL NOT FIX THE TRAFFIC PROBLEM, not now, not EVER! But good mass transit will offer the wise commuter a high quality alternative to the traffic jams. Traffic will continue to build as the city pushes outward, all the Mass Transit people are saying is GIVE US A CHOICE. Most will continue to sit on Roosevelt in their autos cursing the lights, the base traffic, and the guy ahead of them. This behavior will continue until the day they've waited for the 3rd light change at Roosevelt and Yorktown, and a two car RDC train blows past them like a rocket sled on rails. EPIPHANY!
(http://www.fdotfirstcoastouterbeltway.com/images/BFC_map_full.jpg)
Tweedle Dee or Tweedle Dumb at FDOT can't find the jobs of Jacksonville on this map.
3. The Outer Beltway goes in the wrong direction to be anything more then an Orange Park BYPASS. The route that swings far to the west in Duval is not going to relieve a single car headed into Jacksonville. The only person that might benefit will be the guy living in Clay and working at Cecil or Palm Coast. The same amount of effort and a lot less money could rebuild Lennox from I-10 to Old Middleburg, and hence on Old Middleburg to a point on US-301, just north of Starke. "Instant FREEway to Gainesville" just add transit lanes.
(http://www.visitingdc.com/images/portland-light-rail.jpg)
Light Rail could veer off Roosevelt toward OP Mall...
4. The Orange Park deleima is not uniquely solved with BRT, BUS and COMMUTER RAIL either, a look at the Jacksonville Metro area map demonstrates that most of our fixed mass transit could be handled by existing rail lines. Existing EXCEPT the Beaches and the Southwest Side of town. So what if we build streetcar downtown and on out to Ortega? It's not a stretch to think that such a line could either grow into LIGHT RAIL. Otherwise Light Rail could follow Blanding South, or the CSX to Yukon, then veer off Southwest toward the OP Mall. On the East, a new Matthews Bridge/Tunnel would make for an easy link as far as Regency. This would not only be a traffic alternative but would also cause a rebirth of Arlington-Regency...
That's my take, comments?
OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: Ocklawaha on June 17, 2010, 10:59:55 PM
MASS TRANSIT: WILL NOT FIX THE TRAFFIC PROBLEM, not now, not EVER! But good mass transit will offer the wise commuter a high quality alternative to the traffic jams.
thanks Ock...I've been trying to explain this to people like stjr...the reasons to do transit are to provide options and reshape our communities....not to solve traffic problems.
Its all about giving citizens choices. Whether its roads or rail, you can't solve traffic congestion if you're not willing to change land use regulations to limit future sprawl development. In Jax, we don't have viable alternatives. From this standpoint, an argument could be made to look at investing millions in establishing alternative modes instead of billions on the roadway network.
They will build a SPUI at Wells and Blanding! Ha! Imagine that nightmare!
Blanding and I-295 will be nice to look at, but it will not help. That is just one more interchange that Argyle will use. Now, instead of going up Collins to Blanding, they will just clog up the service roads. It will create a whole new jam.
The new interchange will make the Collins overpass jam up in all directions, just like Blanding/I-295, and 103rd/I-295. They should just add exit ramps at Morse/I-295.
Well, at least, Collins Rd. is going to Old Middleburg!
New mast arm traffic signals From Kingsley to 103rd on Blanding won't help a lot, but it did help somewhat.
Collins is going to be crazy.
Quote from: jandar on December 20, 2009, 10:44:11 AM
4. Get light rail, or even JTA bus with a direct route to SJTC and Southpoint from Orange Park. Sure I can take the express from OP, then take a connector to Gate Parkway/Southpoint/Baymeadows. But it will take too long. I would have to leave my house @ 5:45AM, sit in the parking lot @ KMart in OP, catch the bus to the FCCJ Station, arriving at 7:15AM. Then catch a transfer from Rosa Parks station over to the Kings St Station to catch SS6, hopefully by 7:40AM. This would get me to SJTC @ 8:30AM. Not bad, only 2.5 hours to go from OP to SJTC.
Or, I can take WS91 from Youngerman and Blanding (after having driven through the worst of the traffic already) and catch WS91 @ 7:10AM, get to the Avenues @ 8:04AM, catch S1 @ 9:03AM (wow, only a 1 hr wait) and get to SJTC area @ 9:30ish.
Nah, I'll drive my car for 45 min-1 hr each way and come and go when I want to.
Exactly!!!!! No Words Needed!
Quote from: tufsu1 on June 17, 2010, 11:43:26 PM
Quote from: Ocklawaha on June 17, 2010, 10:59:55 PM
MASS TRANSIT: WILL NOT FIX THE TRAFFIC PROBLEM, not now, not EVER! But good mass transit will offer the wise commuter a high quality alternative to the traffic jams.
thanks Ock...I've been trying to explain this to people like stjr...the reasons to do transit are to provide options and reshape our communities....not to solve traffic problems.
Your are right, Tufsu, I don't see this at all, and, as a result, I don't currently agree with Ock on this. It's a mathematical fact that if mass transit relieves a road/interchange of thousands of cars, it has to contribute to traffic improvement since that is substantially less cars involved in clogging the arteries. Taken to an extreme, if everyone took mass transit, well, the interchange problem would be completely cured. That would be a total solution to traffic problems!
Now, if Ock is basing his comment on further growth outrunning the improvements made by a mass transit solution, well, that's a whole other kettle of fish to be solved (by growth management as Lake alludes to) but it doesn't take away from the significant relief given by mass transit at any given level of demand to travel this area.
Given that your $100 million interchange (plus the $29 million already spent on Collins Road) won't fix anything as readily admitted by your road-building brethren, why not put that same money in a mass transit fix that will provide a lot more benefit to a much wider area and, versus the interchange "improvements", maybe more people incrementally, not to mention improving our air quality and reducing our dependence on oil. Once again, it's cost/benefit.
Tufsu, take off those asphalt covered glasses and get with the program. ;)
Quote from: stephendare on June 18, 2010, 12:38:48 AM
I would like to see some of this mathematical fact stuff.
Stephen, you amaze. If you take half the traffic off the road, does not the remaining half of traffic using the same space for travel not move better? What don't you get?
Maybe I should have said it was a law of physics? Something like density = mass/volume?
Quote from: stephendare on June 18, 2010, 01:05:52 AM
you can toss those assumptions out the door, stjr. Traffic volume conforms to capacity, not the other way around. Its one of those counter intuitive phenomenons.
OK, I get your drift. But, nonetheless, that appears to me to be a behavioral change trumping an underlying mathematical fact, i.e. mass transit removes cars, creates a "capacity" surplus (the math segment), and cars return to take advantage of that surplus (the behavioral segment) until an equilibrium of some sort is reached between driving and taking mass transit.
By the way, I don't see the articles you linked to above having anything to do with your proposition. I am just supposing its possibility intuitively.
Quote from: stephendare on June 18, 2010, 12:38:48 AM
I would like to see some of this mathematical fact stuff.
ok...here are some numbers for stjr....in 2035 (without any additional improveements beyond what are funded in the next 3 years) traffic at the I-295/Blanding interchange is forecasted to be around 330,000 vehicles per day (and yes, I realize some of this is double counting for cars using both roads)....using an average 1.25 auto occupancy factor, that equals as much as 410,000 people.
Now, even the optimistic forecasts for commuter rail show around 6,000 riders a day on the southwest line....so assuming all of those people would otherwise drive through the interchange, than traffic gets cut by 1.5%
So...once again, transit is not about alleviating roadway congestion (just ask people in NYC, DC, and Chi)....it is about providing choices and changing land use patterns.
Is it possible to agree with all of you? LOL In my opinion building wider roads and more interchanges just creates an illusion that your commute will be easy. Realtors use it as a selling point, big box developers use it for traffic counts-then more building, and in the end it does nothing to improve traffic flow because new development makes up the increase in traffic. People will continue to build in the pristine swamps of Clay County thinking that getting to their jobs in Duval will be easy. We end up spending millions and make little progress. Actually you could argue that it makes it even worse and certainly does nothing for the environment.
Now, let's look at what happens by spending millions on a mass transit system instead. With a train system in place, now realtors are using access to it as a selling point. This moves the development and focus to new areas of town away from the congestion. It promotes infill and attracts developers who are more interested in mixed use developments, higher density developments and small, local retail. The tax base in Jacksonville increases in numerous places in the city because light rail stops all along the route now create a new focus for development. Smart, urban professionals are now attracted to older neighborhoods and unique residential developments rather than feeling the need to live in the Clay County swamps where the new cookie-cutter houses are. You see tufsu, we have the power to shape development. Our goal should not be to build enough roads to accommodate 330,000 vehicles by 2035. We will never build ourselves out of traffic congestion. We need to invest in changing land use patterns now, to create a healthier, more sustainable and stable economy.
Ock,
Run for office. I will vote for you. You understand roads/transit.
Wish there were more of you to scream about needing a bridge south of Fleming Island, not south of Green Cove Springs.
Quote from: SightseerLounge on June 18, 2010, 12:21:08 AM
Quote from: jandar on December 20, 2009, 10:44:11 AM
4. Get light rail, or even JTA bus with a direct route to SJTC and Southpoint from Orange Park. Sure I can take the express from OP, then take a connector to Gate Parkway/Southpoint/Baymeadows. But it will take too long. I would have to leave my house @ 5:45AM, sit in the parking lot @ KMart in OP, catch the bus to the FCCJ Station, arriving at 7:15AM. Then catch a transfer from Rosa Parks station over to the Kings St Station to catch SS6, hopefully by 7:40AM. This would get me to SJTC @ 8:30AM. Not bad, only 2.5 hours to go from OP to SJTC.
Or, I can take WS91 from Youngerman and Blanding (after having driven through the worst of the traffic already) and catch WS91 @ 7:10AM, get to the Avenues @ 8:04AM, catch S1 @ 9:03AM (wow, only a 1 hr wait) and get to SJTC area @ 9:30ish.
Nah, I'll drive my car for 45 min-1 hr each way and come and go when I want to.
Exactly!!!!! No Words Needed!
Your right day 1 of a mass transit system this city won't have been built as if their were a transit system in place.
Had their been a good mass transit system in place I would bet the developers of the SJTC would have taken that into consideration when picking their location.
How you want your city to develop is a bigger factor in building transit than is it the most convenient thing ever day 1.
We are a sprawling mess because their is no connective "thing" directing our growth into any logical pattern. Transit lines can do that. Employers, residential developers, retail and more will grow along the lines making them convenient.
Having good transit will not get most people out of their car every day that is not even the goal. Spend some time in Chicago you will use your car, you will use the El, you will use taxis and you will even use the bus. Trust me when I say you will enjoy having the choice that will make your day easiest.
Well we sure do not have those kinds of transportation options here! More than likely probably won't in the next 10 years but it is nice to think about! What do we have......bus......whopee!
Quote from: tufsu1 on June 18, 2010, 08:13:45 AM
Quote from: stephendare on June 18, 2010, 12:38:48 AM
I would like to see some of this mathematical fact stuff.
ok...here are some numbers for stjr....in 2035 (without any additional improveements beyond what are funded in the next 3 years) traffic at the I-295/Blanding interchange is forecasted to be around 330,000 vehicles per day (and yes, I realize some of this is double counting for cars using both roads)....using an average 1.25 auto occupancy factor, that equals as much as 410,000 people.
OMG! I think I saw that .25 person in a little white Prius and it sure looked like Mike Miller, I often wondered why people thought he "wasn't all there," then I attended today's Amtrak meeting!
NOW I'M A BELIEVER!OCKLAWAHA
yeah...but if the .25 persn is in a Prius, at least they're being environmentally friendly!
My statement about the attitude and perception of those who live outside Duval County was just verified by a man in the article from the TU below. They want an easy commute but don't want to pay for it.
"As a resident of Clay County, I remember the tolls. Please, no tolls on Butler. There is too much traffic. Adding tolls would really destroy the traffic flow.
If road construction or expansion is needed by the city and the state is not forthcoming with funds, then use local funds, certainly. It benefits the city and its residents, even though the road itself belongs to the state..."
- ROB, Fleming Island.
http://jacksonville.com/opinion/editorials/2010-06-18/story/reader-feedback-taxes-roads
Quote from: tufsu1 on June 19, 2010, 09:28:18 AM
yeah...but if the .25 persn is in a Prius, at least they're being environmentally friendly!
ROFLMAO!
One has to wonder how much the tax payers have to suffer in order to provide that ride? Does it lose money?
...and when will it be "self - sustaining?"
Me thinkith Mike slipped back into his old "Conservative Radio Talk Jock" dialogue for an instant yesterday and forgot where he was or who he was asking... OCKLAWAHA
Here is another $48 million "found" for a single two lane ramp from I-95 to 9A. It's not even "new", just an expansion replacement.
Don't forget the $114 million for JTB, the $150 million for I-95/I-10, more millions for the I95 overland bridge, and more millions for the future ramps at I-95 North and 9A to go with this one. And, then there are the millions and billions for 9B and the Outer Beltway.
But, still, no money for street cars and so little for buses that they can't fund adequate bus shelters for pocket change compared to these expenditures. Where are our priorities? Who will reorder them? Wonder if passing Amendment 4 will impact our transit priorities?QuoteFlyover opens on Northside to connect I-95 southbound to Florida 9A
Source URL: http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2010-08-22/story/new-flyover-opens-northside-connect-interstate-95-southbound-florida-9a
By Larry Hannan
There was a time when Interstate 95 on the Northside was out in the middle of nowhere.
That time is over.
On Tuesday night, the Florida Department of Transportation will acknowledge that reality when it opens a 2,256-foot flyover ramp that will take traffic from Interstate 95 south to Florida 9A south. The $48 million ramp, 50 feet above the ground at its highest point, will offer a two-lane exit from I-95 that is expected to be more convenient to motorists looking to go east to Heckscher Drive, the Jacksonville Port Authority or the beach.
A bridge on Florida 9A over Main Street has also been widened to three lanes as part of the project.
The existing exit at mile marker 362A - a circular, one-lane exit dating to about 1960 - will be permanently closed on Tuesday night.
"It was an exit that was installed before the Dames Point Bridge or Blount Island existed," said FDOT spokesman Mike Goldman. "It really wasn't meant to handle a lot of traffic.
State traffic counts have 86,000 people a day traveling on I-95 between Airport Road and Florida 9A. About 54,000 people a day take Florida 9A between I-95 and Main Street.
Traffic counts are expected to increase with planned expansion at the Jacksonville Port Authority, including the arrival of a new cargo terminal for Hanjin in 2014.
Port Authority spokeswoman Nancy Rubin said the new flyover would be welcomed.
"Any improvement that moves traffic more efficiently and offers more options for drivers helps attract new business to the port," Rubin said.
Dick Berry, executive director of the Economic Development and Enhancement of North Jacksonville, said Tuesday's opening would be gratifying.
"We've lagged behind the Southside when it comes to infrastructure improvements," he said. "And this helps us catch up."
The project also includes additional highway lighting, a sore subject with Berry.
"This was one of the only sections of I-95 that was not well lit," he said.
Berry said the flyover is only the first step, and he expects more improvements to be made at the intersection.
Kathy Thomas, FDOT consulting design engineer, said the state is looking into the feasibility of a second flyover from Interstate 295 northbound to I-95 northbound.
It is also looking into improvements on I-95 northbound to Florida 9A southbound, and from Florida 9A northbound to I-95 northbound.
But the state is only in the design phase, and no money has been allocated for construction. There is also no timetable for getting this done, Thomas said.
Florida 9A and Interstate 295 are north-south roads. The roads will merge together soon into one loop called Interstate 295, and the road will have east-west designations after the merger.
The project started in late 2007 and construction will officially conclude in early September.
Looks like business as usual to me.......stjr! I am almost left speechless with the thought that somehow and someway, we seem to come up with money for more concrete monuments to and for the personnel vehicle! I really have to wonder just what will have to take place inorder for the lights to go on?