Sunrail bill passes: What it means for Jacksonville
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A look at how the passing of the Sunrail bill (House Bill 1B) impacts the future of Jacksonville.
Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2009-dec-sunrail-bill-passes-what-it-means-for-jacksonville
Gentlemen......it sounds real good! Rail out of the port should have been in place long before now and should have been integrated from the get go.......but better later than not at all! I see possibilities for all kinds of things to start taking place............I guess my question should be "Does the current Administration see them"? Johnny has not displayed much in the way of vision.....or a plan and I would have to see it to believe it!
I feel all tingly inside. Finally, rail in Florida and the potential for REAL mass transit in Jacksonville. Lets hope the City doesn't screw this up like they have everything else.
Regarding the Amtrack/FEC passenger rail, the article from Sept. says this will be running in 2012. Is this a done deal?
If the application gets selected for funding, it will be a done deal.
USDOT is expected to announce the HSR "winners" next month, so we'll know shortly!
FSU - There are like 50 billion in projects competing for 8 billion available, that is one heckuva BIG IF.
Why does Orlando get a "NEW" Amtrak station? The current one is Church Street, so why does the map show Church Street and then the Orlando/Amtrak Station?
CS - Its hard to spend money for "NEW" projects, like port expansion without growth. I think CSX did the right thing in waiting, its not like the PORT is growing beyond leaps and bounds. This way, they get to do it right and hopefully they put people to work locally with these projects.
How far in the future is the "planned no date" portion of the rail that connects Jacksonville. Seeing how CSX has it's headquarters in Jax and the new port being built for Hanjin, how could Jax be left out of the initial planning? Are there any future plans to connect the rest of Florida south of Orlando? Being labeled as "planned no date" I have no confidence that it will ever happen.
Quote from: mtraininjax on December 17, 2009, 11:20:48 AM
Why does Orlando get a "NEW" Amtrak station? The current one is Church Street, so why does the map show Church Street and then the Orlando/Amtrak Station?
Orlando is not getting a new Amtrak station. The current Amtrak station is about a mile or so south of downtown and Church Street.
Quote from: JaxNative68 on December 17, 2009, 11:22:30 AM
How far in the future is the "planned no date" portion of the rail that connects Jacksonville. Seeing how CSX has it's headquarters in Jax and the new port being built for Hanjin, how could Jax be left out of the initial planning? Are there any future plans to connect the rest of Florida south of Orlando? Being labeled as "planned no date" I have no confidence that it will ever happen.
I believe we focus too much on the term "HSR." We'll have Amtrak on the FEC, running up to 90mph.
QuoteOrlando is not getting a new Amtrak station. The current Amtrak station is about a mile or so south of downtown and Church Street.
That is not true, there is a Winter Park station, which you may be referencing, but the Amtrak stops I have been on, enduring my 9 hour trek to Miami, have all stopped at Church Street and this IS referenced as the Orlando downton stop.
QuoteWe'll have Amtrak on the FEC, running up to 90mph.
How? They are limited to 79 on CSX, what changed? Concrete ties?
Quote from: mtraininjax on December 17, 2009, 11:32:58 AM
That is not true, there is a Winter Park station, which you may be referencing, but the Amtrak stops I have been on, enduring my 9 hour trek to Miami, have all stopped at Church Street and this IS referenced as the Orlando downton stop.
What year? Church St. is not an Amtrak stop.
Quote from: mtraininjax on December 17, 2009, 11:34:07 AM
QuoteWe'll have Amtrak on the FEC, running up to 90mph.
How? They are limited to 79 on CSX, what changed? Concrete ties?
The track will be upgraded as a part of the Amtrak plan.
QuoteChurch St. is not an Amtrak stop.
Someone should tell Amtrak, check their website. Wow, never realized the Meteor is gone, been rolled into Silver Service, whatever the heck that is.
The Miami service passes Church Street station, but the Tampa service goes to the Church Street station. Amtrak still references the station at 1400 Sligh Blvd, 32806. Of course they still reference the Sunset Limited coming to Jax, so that shows that their website is fraught with inconsistencies, but then again, who's isnt.
i may be part of the problem, cause i can't imagine sitting on a train for 9 hours when i can drive there in 5, unless they brought back the old fashion bar car, but drinking for 9 hours could be even more trouble
QuoteThe track will be upgraded as a part of the Amtrak plan.
Lake - You realize that is going to cost a small fortune, and for what? To gain 11 MPH? Why not just use the money to create nicer stations and amenities for the travelers, is the extra MPH worth it? I would not travel down FEC just to go 11 MPH faster, but I would for nicer stations and amenities at the stops.
Quotethe old fashion bar car
Club car is there, and serves the finest Budweiser and Heineken you can buy.
^ nice!
Mtrain, not sure what you are talking about. Church Street is not an Amtrak stop and the Silver Meteor is not gone. It runs every day.
Quote from: mtraininjax on December 17, 2009, 11:52:22 AM
QuoteThe track will be upgraded as a part of the Amtrak plan.
Lake - You realize that is going to cost a small fortune, and for what? To gain 11 MPH? Why not just use the money to create nicer stations and amenities for the travelers, is the extra MPH worth it? I would not travel down FEC just to go 11 MPH faster, but I would for nicer stations and amenities at the stops.
Talk to Amtrak, FEC and Obama about it. According to Obama's administration, intercity service running at 90 mph qualifies as HSR. So I assume if they don't upgrade to 90, they can't apply for HSR dollars to fund it. Anyway, its peanuts compared to what the Tampa/Orlando line will cost.
QuoteChurch Street is not an Amtrak stop and the Silver Meteor is not gone. It runs every day.
Check Amtrak's website. Amtrak offers service from Orlando to Tampa/St. Pete, Ft. Meyers, and the terminus is the Orlando Church Street Station. The fact that it "may" be bus service, does not differ from the FACT that Amtrak puts it on the Atlantic Coast Service operations Guide as of Oct 26, 2009.
The Meteor and Star both stop in Orlando, between the stops at Winter Park and Kissimmee. They refer to it as Mile 1124. Amtrak did get cute and roll the Meteor and Star into their "Silver Service"
I don't see any mention of Church Street.
Silver Service / Palmetto Atlantic Coast Service (http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/BlobServer?blobcol=urldata&blobtable=MungoBlobs&blobkey=id&blobwhere=1249200681632&blobheader=application%2Fpdf&blobheadername1=Content-disposition&blobheadervalue1=attachment;filename=Amtrak_T04.pdf)
This is Obama's fault.
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For those who are totally confused by Mtrain's "Church Street Station," THIS is the Orlando, Florida Amtrak Station. It is located at 1400 Sligh Blvd, just two blocks west of Orlando Regional Medical Center or Winnie Palmer Children's Hospital (Where little "Robert" my train loving 2 year old grandchild was born).
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Church Street Station has not seen regular train service since 1926, when the "new" Orlando station opened on Sligh. The original Church Street Station was built by the South Florida Railroad, a 3' foot gauge (Colombian Narrow Gauge Standards!) Railroad from Sanford on Lake Monroe, to Tampa. The PLANT SYSTEM bought out the South Florida and opened Church Street in 1900, replacing the older 1882 "SOUTH FLORIDA," station. In 1904 the Plant System, (Henry B. Plant of local Jacksonville fame) died and his estate sold out to the Atlantic Coast Line, which was rapidly building and merging South from Richmond, VA. The Plant lines gave the ACL a fantastic and extensive network of Florida rail lines.
SEABOARD AIR LINE RAILROAD station, was located on Central Avenue, and contrary to some popular beliefs, had nothing to do with Church Street Station. The Central Avenue Station was last used as an office/freight agency, but hadn't seen regular passenger service for decades when it closed. The final active station on the Seaboard's old Orlando Subdivision, (Wildwood - Leesburg - Tavares - Plymouth - Apopka - Orlando - Winter Park - Oviedo/Lake Charm) was Plymouth. Today the Florida Central Railroad, a Pinsley Shortline, operates much of the former Seaboard branch and maintains it's offices and shops at the old Plymouth Station.
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Orlando Lynx Transit has a beautiful new station at Livingston and Garland, downtown and slightly North of the old Church Street Station. Mark my words here, THIS has the earmarks of becoming a real Transportation Center and is a far better layout of it's design elements then Jacksonville has planned.
As far as the port "Finally getting rail..." Uh, the port has rail, and HAS HAD RAIL since the 1870's. The fix is that the port doesn't have the correct type of rail on the northside, IE:
Neutral Access Terminal Company
Container Facilities
Bulk Terminal
Intermodal Rail-Highway-Sea-Air facility.
If we really want the edge over the other Ports, we need to get on this YESTERDAY!
OCKLAWAHA
and here is a primary reason why Florida did the deal with CSX to move freight trains
http://www.suntimes.com/news/transportation/1937576,CST-NWS-ride14.article
people should consider these issues when touting the use of rail for moving lots of freight AND lots of people.
tufsu1 if your referring to the funding that is one thing...........if your referring to the track situation, that is something else! Yes I do agree with the concept of separate tracks since HSR would not be able to use freight dedicated lines to travel on at the same time! Passing track is an option but true HSR would require its own separate set of tracks suitable for High Speed. Concrete ties, super stabilized bed, light and control system's suitable for such speeds including cross overs..........lotta money big guy! Lousy One Billion Dollars would just be scratching the surface and that's not taking into account maintenance of tracks, equipment and stopping points where ever they might be.......so One Billion big ones is just the consulting end, not even system being constructed..........but I am not a consultant so I am just guessing of course............did not even mention ticketing and service infrastructure needed!
its not just HSR, but any form of passenger rail....try and get reliable commuter rail service in Jax. with freight trains crossing the river every 30-45 minutes
Just a guess...nothing for Jax. That seems to be the way it generally works once we mix our locals with feds and state.
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Quote from: tufsu1 on December 17, 2009, 10:20:16 PM
its not just HSR, but any form of passenger rail....try and get reliable commuter rail service in Jax. with freight trains crossing the river every 30-45 minutes
Bull Shit TUFSU1... Yeah, I've heard all the HSR maniac's cry about needing super track, but I'm not even convinced we need HSR. This country hasn't even got a national system that is more then a bare bones skeleton, and I sure as hell don't see hundreds of thousands of new converts to rail suddenly showing up because we have a super train. If we don't train the masses to use rail, there is no point in jumping off the deep end into a waterless pool.
As for the FEC? Come on man, the FEC handled just as many freight movements "back in the day" and still fielded one of the most extensive fleets of passenger trains in the country. Today, with the second track replaced, and that fantastic signaling system they have, it's just a matter of SCHEDULING. There should be nothing hard about integrating commuter rail into their current freight schedules (which I have) and frankly only a couple of trains will even encounter the commutes. The schedule is such that with 30-45 minute headways, a train can clear Bowden or St. Augustine, BEFORE or AFTER the freight has passed.
You scared these poor boys and girls, hell this isn't rocket science... You know, the two of us could do this with a telegraph key and a bucket of flimsey's. CS can be our Mudhop!
OCKLAWAHA
Ock.........I would be more than happy to volunteer! tufsu1 I agree with Ock on this one big guy! A 30 minute window should be more than enough for before and after freight runs passing on the same track! That stretch down US1 has passing track and they are used big time so if needed.......add some additional track at preselected points where needed! Your a consultant .....you tell me where the best places would be?? Obviously where ROW permits to do so but what the heck ........I am just a dumb taxpayer. You don't sound too enthusiastic about having rail here in Jacksonville big fella.........why not?
Ock....you are correct...at one time passenger and freight rail both operated on the same tracks and both provided high quality service....WHEN THE RAIL COMPANIES PROVIDED BOTH SERVICES!
I can't tell you how many times I would ride Amtrak in the northeast (where there is little to no freight traffic) and have to wait as a higher-prirority Metroliner (now Acela) train got to pass....obviously affecting on-time arrival.
So, imgine a similar situation when a passenger train has to pull aside to allow a freight train (operated by the track's owner) to pass....and then keep in mind how slow some of those freight trains are!
Solution is simple.........build parallel tracks and use existing ROW! Expand as necessary......end of problem!
Quote from: CS Foltz on December 18, 2009, 08:11:33 PM
Solution is simple.........build parallel tracks and use existing ROW! Expand as necessary......end of problem!
you mean the existing ROW that is owned by the freight rail companies (like CSX)?
You might want to check out those lines...in many cases, there is room to double track, but not much else.
tufsu1 .....I am sure that a "Reciprocal" agreement could be worked out! And yes..double track is what I am referring to, room for not much else not needed except at transfer points! Don't forget .....how much of abandoned ROW is currently available or discontinued tracks.....there are options that don't require CSX to be paid anything I believe..........is there not?
You could go the HSR route and passenger rail down the middle of expressways. However, it will cost more and typically miss the center of most communities it will serve.
Quote from: CS Foltz on December 19, 2009, 07:24:07 AM
there are options that don't require CSX to be paid anything I believe..........is there not?
I would assume we'd still have to pay to use their rail...or do the SunRail thing and buy the rail, and then lease it back to them.
Let's start with commuter rail and see what happens with it in Florida, before we jump to HSR. There is barely money for commuter rail now, what with Healthcare, Medicare, SS and jobs bills taking all of Congress' time. Do we really need HSR now?
Statewide Amtrak corridor service would be a much better idea than high speed rail between Tampa and Orlando.
Lunican I agree! HSR in the Orlando area does not let it shine like it should! Down there strictly a Rat Feeder and not the interstate system that is needed!
I know this will surprise some of you...but I also agree....I've always supported expanding Amtrak service in Florida as a first step.
I think it should have come even before Sunrail, but I guess that's not how it's going to work out.
I think we have a great shot at Amtrak corridor expansion. We will probably get stimulus money for the Jax-Miami line and not HSR. The state may be more willing to talk Amtrak at that point.