allegations of coded e-mails
Sink: DOT Officials Should Resign
Chief financial officer, state Sen. Paula Dockery join in denouncing reported hidden messages during rail bill fight.
By KEITH LAING
THE NEWS SERVICE OF FLORIDA
Published: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 at 12:03 a.m.
Last Modified: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 at 12:03 a.m.
TALLAHASSEE | Amid newspaper reports that high-ranking state transportation officials coded e-mails about the rail bill passed in the recently completed special session, Chief Financial Officer Alex Sink said Monday they should resign.
Responding to a weekend Palm Beach Post report that Department of Transportation officials titled e-mails about the legislation lawmakers approved during last week's special session with breakfast-themed code words, Sink, a Democratic gubernatorial candidate, said that Transportation Secretary Stephanie Kopelousos and her deputies should step down from their posts for violating the spirit of the state's Sunshine laws.
"We live in the Sunshine State, and this is not the way the people's business should be done," Sink said in a statement Monday. "Those who acted this way should be held accountable, which is why if anyone at the Department of Transportation was involved in this activity, including Secretary Kopelousos, they should immediately resign."
In addition to helping lawmakers craft the language of the sweeping rail package they approved last week, the DOT negotiated the terms of the deal to buy 61 miles of existing tracks in the Orlando area from freight company CSX Corp. for the SunRail commuter system.
Before the start of the special session, Sen. Paula Dockery, R-Lakeland, filed a public records request for e-mails about the rail bill between March and mid-November and was given 121 responses.
Dockery, herself a Republican gubernatorial candidate, questioned the low number of results, which transportation officials attributed to a data entry error. After the rail bill passed over Dockery's objection during the special session, her office was given more than 8,000 e-mails, some of which contained just attachments and had subjects such as "pancakes" and "French toast," which revealed an apparent coding system[/color].
In a statement provided to the News Service of Florida by her Tallahassee office, Dockery castigated the transportation officials for violating the state's open government laws.
Dockery said she had filed a new request for DOT e-mails containing breakfast items as key words in the hopes of gathering the full scope of the department's negotiations with CSX on the plan she has repeatedly called a sweetheart deal for the company.
"It is evident through the words, actions, and inactions of these state officials that they are actively circumventing transparency laws," Dockery said. "Using code words in an effort to disguise the true content of an e-mail is a violation of the public trust. A sound statewide rail policy is something that deserved to be openly discussed and debated - not negotiated behind closed doors."
Dockery added she was able to identify that something might have been amiss with her initial records request because she was trained in public records as a former member of the Governor's Commission on Open Government.
"Average citizens are denied access to records they have a constitutional right to review each and every day," she said. "I have experienced firsthand the frustration of attempting to obtain records from entities that are supposed to be conducting government in the sunshine."
A group that sought alongside Dockery to rally grassroots opposition to the special session rail package, Ax the Tax, dubbed the e-mail breakfast coding "WaffleGate." The group joined Sink and Dockery in calling for the resignations of offending transportation officials.
"Florida has broad public records laws - so says the statute that gives us the right to obtain public documents - not so with the Florida Department of Transportation," Ax the Tax Chairman Doug Guetzloe said in a statement. "This entire project has been cloaked with secrecy and now we discover, belatedly, that CSX and FDOT were intentionally and deliberately hiding vital information about this boondoggle with code words like waffle, bacon, pancakes, etc."
http://www.theledger.com/article/20091215/NEWS/912155004/1286
Maybe they bought stock in Denny's and are constructing a new Breakfast menu? Yup.....right! Violations of the Sunshine Law appear to be a way of life..........look at the City Council's refusal to allow their's to be viewed yet the public pays for their E Mail! It is flat out wrong!
I agree that this is a problem....the e-mails should have been clear that they were discussing rail.
That said, there are times when negotiations should be kept private....then made public if/when an agreement has been reached....unfortunately, our Sunshine laws don't allow this.
Quote from: tufsu1 on December 15, 2009, 09:01:17 AM
I agree that this is a problem....the e-mails should have been clear that they were discussing rail.
That said, there are times when negotiations should be kept private....then made public if/when an agreement has been reached....unfortunately, our Sunshine laws don't allow this.
I have no problem with private negotiations but if they are using an E Mail system that the public pays for.............well I as a taxpayer would like to see them! Texting from phone to phone, if the phone is privately paid for or phone to phone billing paid for by the owner of the phone is something else. Private talks use private means and not systems that are paid for by the public/taxpayers!
With behavior like this, is it any wonder we end up with FDOT supported projects like the Outer Beltway and 9B? And, no mass transit? FDOT is all about protecting its bureaucratic interests over the interests of our taxpayers. How many developers are they in bed with? Is JTA a whole lot better?
Government entities and public officials are "married" to the taxpayers. But, like Tiger Woods, so many of them sleep around with every suitor they can, and then they wonder why their "reputation" is so sullied in the eyes of the public. Let's call it "Tiger Woods Syndrome" ;D
stjr...........you do have a point for sure! FDOT and JTA are very protective about their turf and interests! As I have said before.........bureaucratic/political interests take precedence over the public interests......just like usual!
While the "MJ Boys," as Ock calls them, fiercely defended the CSX sweetheart deal, it is quite CLEAR that things were not on the up and up at the expense of the tax-payer, as yours truly has so frequently pointed out:
QuoteCSX/SunRail Deal: The Breakfast of Concealers
Published: Wednesday, December 16, 2009 at 1:03 a.m.
Last Modified: Wednesday, December 16, 2009 at 1:03 a.m.
If state Sen. Paula Dockery wins the Republican gubernatorial nomination, and Florida Chief Financial Officer Alex Sink wins the Democratic counterpart, two things are certain:
Florida's first female governor will emerge from the November general election.
Heads likely will roll at the Florida Department of Transportation.
And well they should. Last week, during a special-call legislative session, a last-minute deal by the DOT resulted in the railroad union dropping opposition to a sweetheart deal between the state and CSX Corp.
Well before the start of the session - on Nov. 25 - Dockery requested e-mails by DOT officials related to the CSX proposal. She was given 121 e-mails, and none from DOT Secretary Stephanie Kopelousos, the linchpin of the CSX/commuter-rail negotiations.
On Dec. 4, Dockery complained to Governor's Office of Open Government. She had wanted the e-mails for use during the special session, which started Thursday, Dec. 3, and ended with the passage of the CSX deal on Dec. 8.
8,037 missed e-mails
On Dec. 9, FDOT Deputy General Counsel Robert M. Burdick sent a letter to Dockery informing her that the FDOT had overlooked e-mails because "the search program that was run to identify records responsive [to] your request had not functioned as expected." The letter included 8,037 e-mails missed by DOT in an initial search because "the person (originally pulling the e-mails) had made an input mistake," according to a DOT spokesman.
Dockery also learned that some were sent using code words, like "pancake" and "french toast." DOT Secretary Stephanie Kopelousos brushed those off as a clever way that Deputy Secretary Kevin Thibault was using to get attention on Kopelousos' Blackberry's e-mail subject list.
"We didn't circumvent anything," Kopelousos told a reporter. "It was something eye catching."
Maybe so. But then there was the worrisome e-mail in which DOT attorney Bruce Conroy told FDOT general counsel Alexis Yarbrough to use another method "in lieu of e-mails" to discuss the state's involvement with railroad projects.
"It is evident through the words, actions and inactions of these state officials that they are actively circumventing transparency laws," Dockery said. "Using code words in an effort to disguise the true content of an e-mail is a violation of the public trust."
Sink issued a similar statement on Monday afternoon: "We live in the Sunshine State, and this is not the way the people's business should be done. Those who acted this way should be held accountable, which is why if anyone at the Department of Transportation was involved in this activity, including Secretary Kopelousos, they should immediately resign."
This isn't new to the plan to pay $650 million to CSX to buy - but still share - railroad tracks in the Orlando area to establish a commuter rail system. The deal was hatched in secrecy and cloaked with hidden budget items since it was first announced during the Jeb Bush administration.
Apparently it keeps on keeping on: Now Gov. Charlie Crist's administration has egg on its face. Along with bacon and grits as well.
http://www.theledger.com/article/20091216/EDIT01/912165010/1036?Title=CSX-SunRail-Deal-The-Breakfast-of-Concealers
If they violated the Sunshine Law, they need to resign or at the least face a reprimand. You try and act like you're the only one pointing out taxpayer waste, fraud, or whatever. It seem you have an issue with some of the people on here and it is getting kinda old. SOS, diffrent day.
In the end though, we will have more benefits than drawbacks.
If someone violated laws, they should be punished. In any event, I'll be looking forward to the grand opening of Sunrail.
I thought that it was $432 Million for that 61 miles of track? That is the figure I have seen more than once in several publications including that fish wrapper the Times Union! There was even a plug from John Thrasher himself in the Editorial section, that was today's paper by the way! There was also interview with the CSX CEO who stated that "All of the paid money will stay in Florida"! I am going to be watching and fully expect I won't be the only one!
It is CS...as pointed out here many times, some people have lopped other peripheral projects (such as overpasses on the S-line) into the project....the truth is those overpasses have been planned for years (in fact one was built 4 years ago) and help both the rail line and the major roads crossing it adjacent to US 301.
Here is the interview with Michael Ward:
http://jacksonville.com/interact/blog/abel_harding/2009-12-16/csxs_ward_sunrail_good_deal_for_state_high_speed_will_cost_bil
Support for Sunrail and support for alleged wrong doing are two different things. No one at MJ ever supported any criminal activity, either real or imagined. I'm confident Sunrail will more then prove the wild eyed Dockery support faction, Paula and the ridiculous Florida HSR project as the real crime against our state and it's citizens.
Doc Dockery for all of his support for High Speed Rail doesn't seem to grasp some of the more basic building blocks of decent train service. At the FRA HSR conference, he was unable to defend the plan or the components at my table of 9 transportation professionals. Doc is a really nice guy, and I think his heart is in the right place, but warm fuzzy's won't a successful rail system make.
OCKLAWAHA
Much thanks for the link Lunican! Mr Ward is saying all of the right things and appears to have thought out what needs to take place. There was no mention about CSX buying in on the insurance policy and glad to see this is also taking place! Now there are rails which will belong to us.......next will be machinery to put on the rails and stopping points and infrastructure and gee willakers ......a bonofide people moving system! Whatever will we do?
Quote from: reednavy on December 16, 2009, 05:04:35 PM
If they violated the Sunshine Law, they need to resign or at the least face a reprimand. You try and act like you're the only one pointing out taxpayer waste, fraud, or whatever. It seem you have an issue with some of the people on here and it is getting kinda old. SOS, diffrent day.
In the end though, we will have more benefits than drawbacks.
Every time I pointed out that the Sunrail deal was an over-priced sweetheart deal, I got flack from the MJ boys.
The 8,000 with-held e-mails that were released after the bill passed SHOULD give us a lot of pause.
Those who opposed the Sunrail deal were not against rail, they just wanted to get a fair shake. During a time of economic crisis with record short-fall in our state budget, there was no effort at all to renegotiate with CSX!
Quotesun-sentinel.com/news/opinion/commentary/f-dockery-rail-forum-1215-20091214,0,5346183.story
South Florida Sun-Sentinel.com
Taxpayers got taken for a ride on rail bill
By Paula Dockery
December 15, 2009
Special interests won the day in Tallahassee last week. For two years, a coalition of my Florida Senate colleagues demanded that the Florida Department of Transportation renegotiate a sweetheart deal with CSX Railroad for a new commuter-rail line around Orlando.
But in last week's hastily called special session, a tidal wave of special interests overcame common sense â€" and stuck you, the taxpayers, with the bill.
If Gov. Charlie Crist signs this bill, Florida will pay seven times the going rate for track. Plus, the freight carrier will still get to use the line 12 hours a day!
Worse, when freight accidents kill people on state commuter-rail lines, taxpayers will pay the bill.
I never imagined leading a fight against a commuter-rail deal. I'm an advocate of rail transit. But as Ross Perot famously said, the devil's in the details, and what the Legislature just passed is a terrible deal.
Tell the governor to veto it.
This deal says a Wall Street company can no longer be held responsible for its negligence â€" horrible public policy. I hardly recognize some of my fellow Republicans in Tallahassee these days. When did we become the party of big spenders and corporate giveaways?
I assumed the state would be a tough negotiator when a Fortune 500 company approached with an offer to sell 61.5 miles of track through Central Florida. But bad things happen when big-money interests meet behind closed doors with state officials who spend taxpayer money like free money. You can bet they'd drive a harder bargain were they reaching into their own pockets.
Supposedly, last week's special session was called to solve a problem for South Florida's Tri-Rail commuter-rail system, which runs a $40 million annual deficit. We agreed to give Tri-Rail a $15 million Band-Aid, but how does a one-time infusion solve its need for a dedicated funding source?
Soon, the Legislature will go into regular session, where we face a $2.6 billion budget gap. My concern is ensuring that Florida doesn't pay CSX by further taxing people who are struggling to keep their homes. Neither should the money come from education, criminal justice or health and human services.
But given the power of special interests in Tallahassee these days, I would encourage you to hold onto your wallets and do what only you can do â€" remember their names on Election Day.
Paula Dockery is a Republican state senator in Lakeland.
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/opinion/commentary/f-dockery-rail-forum-1215-20091214,0,5346183.story
So what exactly is "the going rate for track"?
Also, I think Dockery has this backwards.
QuoteI assumed the state would be a tough negotiator when a Fortune 500 company approached with an offer to sell 61.5 miles of track through Central Florida.
The track wasn't for sale. The state approached CSX. Not exactly the strongest position for negotiations.
QuoteFlorida will pay seven times the going rate for track.
As you know, I'm going to give you flack on this one. The overall deal's cost is being taken completely out of context by rail novices that continue to compare apples with oranges.
Btw, I'm still waiting to see just one of these people mention the "correct" going rate for such a deal and an example of similar deal that would suggest this one was overpriced. Until we can start tossing some real life comparables out there to show that the deal is overpriced, this stuff is nothing more than bad hot air.
Quote from: thelakelander on December 17, 2009, 06:11:53 PM
QuoteFlorida will pay seven times the going rate for track.
As you know, I'm going to give you flack on this one. The overall deal's cost is being taken completely out of context by rail novices that continue to compare apples with oranges.
Btw, I'm still waiting to see just one of these people mention the "correct" going rate for such a deal and an example of similar deal that would suggest this one was overpriced. Until we can start tossing some real life comparables out there to show that the deal is overpriced, this stuff is nothing more than bad hot air.
I'm not getting back into this. The Boston folks got a MUCH better deal. Floridians are push-overs for large Florida corporations.
Please provide some Boston numbers and describe the project and existing environment a little more. For example:
1. What was the acquistion price of the rail line?
2. Was the line purchased a main line that requires the shifting of significant freight traffic?
3. If the answer to question 2 is yes, does an alternative route for freight traffic already exist with enough capacity to handle relocated trains along with the trains already running on it?
I think we can all agree that depending on how the questions are answered a price could go up or down. Let's find out once and for all if we are comparing apples to apples.
If the price was too high they should have gone to Wal-Mart and just picked another 63 mile rail right of way off the shelf that cost less.
Perhaps one that was made in China would have been less costly.
Quote from: Midway on December 17, 2009, 07:58:14 PM
If the price was too high they should have gone to Wal-Mart and just picked another 63 mile rail right of way off the shelf that cost less.
Perhaps one that was made in China would have been less costly.
Well yeah, why even question the price demanded by a monopoly? We could have even added another $100 million for good measure. It's not like Florida has ANY budget woes, now do we ::)
So much for those fiscal conservatives.
Sqeezing single moms is ok,........but whoa if we question monopolies!
FDOT's annual budget is $7 Billion. What else did they buy this year?
Quote from: thelakelander on December 17, 2009, 06:55:22 PM
Please provide some Boston numbers and describe the project and existing environment a little more. For example:
1. What was the acquistion price of the rail line?
2. Was the line purchased a main line that requires the shifting of significant freight traffic?
3. If the answer to question 2 is yes, does an alternative route for freight traffic already exist with enough capacity to handle relocated trains along with the trains already running on it?
I think we can all agree that depending on how the questions are answered a price could go up or down. Let's find out once and for all if we are comparing apples to apples.
Faye, this question is directed towards you. You have yet to provide anything outside of news articles. You can't dodge it by saying "you all know the price", well you're the one saying there could've been a better deal and tossed Boston under the bus w/o providing evidence to back it up. I'm not being hostile, I just like facts with any talk.
Quote from: FayeforCure on December 17, 2009, 06:00:44 PM
Those who opposed the Sunrail deal were not against rail, they just wanted to get a fair shake.
Bull...everyone knows that the legislative process almost always involves taking the good with the bad....if these folks were truly fans of rail, they would have seen the big picture
Faye, are you sure the Boston deal is apples to apples when compared to Sunrail's? Why didn't you mention the line they are purchasing from CSX already has commuter rail service?
Quote“What distinguishes the Framingham/Worcester Line is that it’s controlled by CSX, which can be a problem,’’ said Peisch, since the freight company can give its trains priority over the commuter service. The MBTA owns the tracks used by its other commuter lines.
The state reached a tentative $100 million deal in October to buy the Framingham/Worcester Line’s tracks from CSX in hopes of improving commuter service between Boston and Central Massachusetts.
When the deal was reached, it was reported that it could take until 2012 to complete.
The Worcester/Framingham Line is among the MBTA’s busiest commuter services, carrying 4,000 to 5,000 passengers roundtrip every weekday, but it has also long been plagued by delays.
http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2009/08/02/framingham_worcester_commuter_rail_operator_pledges_changes_to_avert_delays/So, we're not even talking about shifting freight traffic or constructing a new commuter rail service, its already in operation and has been since 1996.
The line in question(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e1/MBTA_GP40_1136.jpg/800px-MBTA_GP40_1136.jpg)
Its obviously pretty foolish to use this as a comparable to the Sunrail deal. Any other examples out there worth comparing to show Florida paid CSX too much?
Fella's...........I did not see anything regarding "Length" of the CSX controlled tracks and still have to agree with the general concensus .....MBTA situation is not comparable to SunRail! They already have a commuter service going unlike SunRail .....their issue appears to be a "Switching" issue (according to the Boston Globe article) but at only a cost of $500K they can fix that! Sounds like poor planning to me maintenance wise, you plan ahead to keep service up and running (Aircraft used to be on a schedule like that) but what do I know!
The MBTA line to Worcester is 24 miles. The track being purchased in Central Florida is 61.5 miles.
QuoteThere is a unique challenge to adding more trains between Worcester and Framingham. The 24 miles of track between the two communities is the only stretch of the commuter rail system serving Boston and its suburbs that is not owned by the MBTA. It is owned by CSX Corp., the huge railroad company that runs a lot of freight along that stretch. Officials note that the Worcester-Framingham line has suffered from the worst on-time performance in the MBTA commuter rail system.
http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2007/08/12/rail_riding_commuters_want_more_service_soon/
Quote from: thelakelander on December 17, 2009, 10:36:53 PM
Faye, are you sure the Boston deal is apples to apples when compared to Sunrail's?
Hey, you know, if your position is that Florida should get Sunrail at ANY cost, as it seems to have been this past year while I've been visiting Metrojacksonville, then so be it. I'm sure that not even the most well-researched information is going to have you concede that we over-paid.
Since Dockery has been researching this issue with her staff, something I do not have the luxury of, I am satisfied that the following is true or someone such as her opponent in her race for governor would have eagerly pointed her errors out. So here is what I know,.................if you want more information ( which I doubt ) I will need to direct you to Ms Dockery:
QuoteThose who support the growth of mass transportation projects should passionately demand that Tri-Rail no longer be “held hostage†to the passage of a very costly freight subsidy/land development project disguised as commuter rail (with a projected ridership of only 3,500 passengers), and for Florida to support its existing commuter rail system before committing billions of taxpayer dollars to another system.
They should strongly insist to FDOT that they renegotiate the SunRail corridor purchase to be more in line with the very similar rail purchase in Massachusetts, which is $1.5 million per mile for 60 miles of track. In fact, the national average cost per mile rail purchase is around $700,000. The SunRail deal amounts to $10 million per mile for 61 miles of track.
Much has been said about Florida emulating the proposed liability agreement between CSX and Massachusetts, including FDOT’s Secretary’s comments to the Cabinet this morning. Don’t you think that Florida’s taxpayers deserve the price per mile that Massachusetts is paying?
Grossly overpaying for a single proposed system jeopardizes the future of a comprehensive, integrated rail transit system throughout our state. Especially when that proposed system was never voted on in a referendum by the local residents who will be required to assume the cost of its operations and maintenance from FDOT after seven years.
Transit-oriented development is meritorious in economic benefit, but not if it comes at a secretly and poorly negotiated “at any price†rail purchase cost to the taxpayers of Florida and the unwise transfer of liability for rail corridor accidents to the taxpayers of Florida (even if the accident is the result of CSX negligence).
http://blogs.creativeloafing.com/dailyloaf/2009/11/18/paula-dockery-not-backing-down-on-sunrail-csx-deal/
Hey, in Florida price gouging by a rail monopoly is ok with the MJ boys.
How about you stop with these little attacks at the Admin and such of the website. That said, she supports HSR, but is bitching over the cost of tracks that were never for sale to begin with, sounds like she is flip-flopping on the whole subject. As has been said, the MA tracks were not a major freight line and were for sale, so you're not giving a fair comparison and not really fully answering the question.
Again, Dockery's $10 million per mile includes the cost of highway overpasses, some which are already built and were already planned. She's being disingenuous because those are FDOT's responsibility anyway.
Cost based on dollars going to CSX: $7.5 million / mile
Cost based on the actual sale of the land: $2.5 million / mile
Quote from: FayeforCure on December 18, 2009, 02:27:53 PM
Hey, you know, if your position is that Florida should get Sunrail at ANY cost, as it seems to have been this past year while I've been visiting Metrojacksonville, then so be it. I'm sure that not even the most well-researched information is going to have you concede that we over-paid.
My position is I'm calling the info you're presenting to make your case a bunch of bull. I'm asking for you (since you keep going on with this) to provide the information suggesting otherwise. Until you make a valid point, with this particular issue, I have no reason to believe that the state overpaid in this deal.
QuoteSince Dockery has been researching this issue with her staff, something I do not have the luxury of, I am satisfied that the following is true or someone such as her opponent in her race for governor would have eagerly pointed her errors out. So here is what I know,.................if you want more information ( which I doubt ) I will need to direct you to Ms Dockery:
All along, I've maintained that Dockery's case was built on baloney and commonly accepted by novices who aren't willing to take the time on their own to look at the details themselves. Nevertheless, I've provided info above (with linked sources) proving that the Boston deal and ours are apples and oranges. None of the quotes you provided from various anti-Sunrail blogs have provided the info I posted above in their rants.
QuoteHey, in Florida price gouging by a rail monopoly is ok with the MJ boys.
I think everyone is still waiting for you to prove price gouging. Instead you keep coming back with links to blogs and articles with no substance. The ball is in your court.
lake.............I think I agree with both you and (Egad! gotta say it!)tufsu1, which I did not think would happen this decade! To the point, Ms Faye has not provided information to the opposite side of what has been posted regarding Sunrail and the involvement of CSX and their 61 miles of track! From what I have seen, neither has Senator Dockery! Talk is really cheap, so show me something to think about! Show me something that reputes what has taken place, signed by Charlie and is in go mode!
Well, if they overpaid it's only because they failed to adequately plan for anything but roads over the past several decades. It's not going to get any cheaper either.
Lunican..............I concur! That appears to be the biggest issue, narrow minded fixation on roads.....roads ....roads! I am not sure that the so-called "Rail Committee/Panel" or whatever is the best way to go it this. I think we just created another bureaucratic office but the cost at this point is not the issue! What is important is the ability to move forward from this and lets get it done!
CS...what would you propose?
Remember, FDOT oversees all transportation in ste state (roads, freight, seaports, rail).....so creating a dedicated rail office/enterprise in the Department seems to be te way to go.
Darn right! Maybe at last there will be someone in the FDOT offices that will look at and advocate for a rail solution to transportation problems. Good move!
tufsu1............another government entity concerns me! That's another Department fighting for funding and making sure no ones treads in their territory and like you point out FDOT already overseas everything to do with transportation! One more government entity is just more money down the tubes you and pay for and still have nothing to show for it!
its not another Department...or for that matter an increase in staff at FDOT....just a reorganization of the various rail functions within FDOT!
Quote from: tufsu1 on December 19, 2009, 09:38:46 AM
Remember, FDOT oversees all transportation in ste state (roads, freight, seaports, rail).....so creating a dedicated rail office/enterprise in the Department seems to be te way to go.
Instead of a "rail" department, it should be a "mass transit" department. That way all the road department orphans of commuter rail, street cars, trolleys, buses, ferries/hydrofoils, and any other possible mode of mass transit would have master planning coverage.
If such a department's Jacksonville office received even half of the resources allocated for 9B, the Outer Beltway, JTB, CR210/I-95, and the countless never-ending traffic improvements such as the $161 million allocated to clear the Blanding/I-295 interchange we would truly be on the way to solving both our transit and urban sprawl issues.
stjr.........I agree with your take on the situation! Mass Transit Department not Rail! That will be a something different and out in left field office for sure! With all of the money projected to be spent over the next 3 years just in our general area were put in a Fund to finance a rail system.......we would not need our roads upgraded, to encourage sprawl and development since a reduction in road usage would relieve congestion! I don't think the answer is to build more roads, I think the answer is to build a mass transit system that would cover Duval and the surrounding counties with transfer points to divert north,south and west! Any system could start out minimalistic but run to area's that are populated! I am sure that there plenty of studies and consulting reports having been generated over the last 5 years that would provide information to work off of. Demographic flows would indicate area's that would be in need of service within a specific time frame and go from there!
FDOT already has a Public Transit Office!
With the new rail office, that group will focus on local transit (bus, streetcar, LRT, etc.)
As for funding, there has always been a 80% - 20% share between roads and transit...that's been Federal guidelines for quite some time.
As for people switching in droves from roads to transit, it is NOT GOING TO HAPPEN....there isn' enough road congestion and to0o much free parking in our region.....we should build a transit system here so people have other travel options (if they still choose to drive, so be it) and to change our land use/development pattrns.
QuoteI think everyone is still waiting for you to prove price gouging. Instead you keep coming back with links to blogs and articles with no substance. The ball is in your court.
It is all a big bumper sticker with her... slogans with no substance... argument with little evidence. ::)
Quote from: FayeforCure on December 18, 2009, 02:27:53 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on December 17, 2009, 10:36:53 PM
Faye, are you sure the Boston deal is apples to apples when compared to Sunrail's?
Hey, you know, if your position is that Florida should get Sunrail at ANY cost, as it seems to have been this past year while I've been visiting Metrojacksonville, then so be it. I'm sure that not even the most well-researched information is going to have you concede that we over-paid.
Since Dockery has been researching this issue with her staff, something I do not have the luxury of, I am satisfied that the following is true or someone such as her opponent in her race for governor would have eagerly pointed her errors out. So here is what I know,.................if you want more information ( which I doubt ) I will need to direct you to Ms Dockery:
Faye doesn't have a clue y'all, she has become the mouthpiece for Senator Dockery, who also doesn't have a clue, she gets her input for Doctor Dockery, another person without a clue. She will always accept the word of another whacked out politician over that of professional planners and transportation executives. We "don't know what we're doing," but Senator Dockery's 22 year old aides RESEARCHERS do... HUH? She is convinced that Sunrail is bad, and that it cost too much, but High Speed Rail, from no where, to no where, and costing 10X's more is good? The spin is that we at MJ are the ones who refuse to acknowledge the "truth". Lake, Lunican, Tufsu1 and I, wouldn't it be a hoot to have Faye sit us down and let Dockery enlighten us? Wow!
But I have a question for our new experts, (and it's okay to pass this to either Dockery for a reply), how do you calculate that CSX is an absolute monopoly? a rail monopoly? a Florida monopoly? Inquiring minds want to know. OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: tufsu1 on December 20, 2009, 09:34:21 AM
FDOT already has a Public Transit Office!
With the new rail office, that group will focus on local transit (bus, streetcar, LRT, etc.)
As for funding, there has always been a 80% - 20% share between roads and transit...that's been Federal guidelines for quite some time.
As for people switching in droves from roads to transit, it is NOT GOING TO HAPPEN....there isn' enough road congestion and to0o much free parking in our region.....we should build a transit system here so people have other travel options (if they still choose to drive, so be it) and to change our land use/development patterns.
Yes I already know about the Public Transit Office! I have to deal with one of their brain farts everytime that I make a "Library" run! 5 Miles out of the way just so DR Horton people can have a straight shoot into DeerWood..............freaking idiots! But I digress.....the new rail office should be concerned only with "RAIL" in its myriad forms, they should not have a thing to do with bus's (BRT or anything resembling closely) Federal guidelines are just that............I believe they are not etched in stone and Florida should have the right to follow just what is needed rather than what is dictated! We receive so little in the way of Federal dollars from gas tax's and transportation tax's or has what been posted just smoke? Supposedly we pay much more than we receive so which is it? If we don't receive our "Fair Share" then we need to compose our own music and poop on the Feds! Maybe it is time to travel our own path?
Quote from: tufsu1 on December 20, 2009, 09:34:21 AM
As for funding, there has always been a 80% - 20% share between roads and transit...that's been Federal guidelines for quite some time.
Tufsu, that needs to change to an amortizing schedule where the 80-20 road/mass transit funding split changes over say 10 or 20 years to become 20%-80%.
At the 80-20 split currently locked in, it just perpetuates the problem. With the amortizing schedule I suggest, the declining road dollars would gradually allow roads to reach their current capacities which would then incrementally increase the demand for mass transit. As this happens, we would be funding the needs of that new mass transit demand with the corresponding shift to mass transit dollars.
Simple and time to start.
It won't happen...right now the progressives (read transit supporters) in Congress and USDOT are contemplating a slight shift to 75-25....there is a potential still that the new Federal transportation bill will allow metro areas to allocate their funding share differently....but I doubt that will make it through as AASHTO has much power and wants to keep the money flowing through state DOTs.
Therein lies the problem.............everyone is more concerned about protecting their turf rather than looking at the big picture over a 20 year range! It would be nice if the "Metro" area's had the power to decide for themselves but with the current figureheads in positions of power, that won't happend either! It is more than likely going to take removing all of the old guard and getting new people in place with a open mind, some expertise and maybe the ability to see 20 years plus down the road and I don't mean more concrete!
It will probably take much more than that CS....we'd need to completely revamp our political system and boundaries.
Think about it....why would someone at the state level want to cede power to a metro region...and what about those metro regions that overlap or are in more than one state....what do you do then?
Not really sure! I do know that some voters actually take the time to do some investigation regarding just who is the best person to represent them.........I know I do! I do know that gerymandering does take place and there is a lot of smoke filled back room wheeling and dealing, Ms Brown comes to mind as an example....Corriane brings home the bacon right? Some voters actually know what to do,voting wise, but the majority are more concerned about ......what are you gonna do for me! Health Care Bill being discussed right now.........look at what happened to the Nebraskan's....Goverment to pick up their Medicare/Medicade Tab for the whole State, talk about buying votes? Until the Public actually takes the time to get involved and educated ......like sheep to be shorn and they deserve it!