Please read the below article from TAMPABAY.COM. Since Tampa has had great success since the early 80's, they quickly forget where they come from, where they've been, and what they were before the Buccaneers came to town; not that the Bucaneers are the sole reason for Tampa's success, but they played a large part in exposing the world as to who and what the Tampa Bay Metro, in particular the City of Tampa, Florida was and is.
Of late, since Tampa has and is experiencing hard times (like most big cities in America), now it seems to have a hard down identity crises; so what do they do? Choose two Southern cities that might be breathing down their neck, of which one had "hands down" crushed Tampa, and that is Charlotte; Jacksonville on the other hand is still trying to find itself, sweep up the garbage, and become the great city that it truly can be but has a hard time grasping how to accomplish that feat.
All of this being said, check out the article by clicking on the below URL from TAMPABAY.COM. Tampa truly seems to be having a problem right now and the only thing that it can do to make itself look or feel better is to point fingers at other Southern cities; why didn't they point a finger at Atlanta?
http://www.tampabay.com/news/business/economicdevelopment/charlotte-jacksonville-offer-economic-lessons-for-tampa-bays-future/1058785
Charlotte NC? Id go there in a heartbeat
YAY for MOUNTAINS and RIVERS and RAPIDS and Beaches!
Actually, I think they pretty well nailed it. They arent tripping over themselves to dish on us, so much as to try to learn from us what meandering downtown interest, and a general lack of interest in an urban core, will bring to them if they follow the same path.
I know it's the truth, you know it's the truth, and of course they know it's the truth...so, why do they have to learn from us if they are supposedly doing so well? Mind your own house and everything will take care of itself. They said what they said because their success, growth and prosperity has come to a halt and they are afraid they might go down the same path. Fear is an awful thing.
Stare your demons down and you will overcome them, and, you won't fear them anymore. Something our beloved Jax needs to learn.
"HU"
Sadly I feel a little flattered that the columnist feels Jacksonville is peer fits in this little trinity. I wish we all felt that way.
Quote from: JeffreyS on December 14, 2009, 09:33:18 PM
Sadly I feel a little flattered that the columnist feels Jacksonville is peer fits in this little trinity. I wish we all felt that way.
See what happens when you look at a city from the outside....its simila to what many on this site see when articles/pictures are posted from other places.
^Did I read the article wrong? It looks like they are using us as an example of how NOT to develop a downtown.
Quote from: thelakelander on December 14, 2009, 10:37:57 PM
^Did I read the article wrong? It looks like they are using us as an example of how NOT to develop a downtown.
That's what I'm saying, and they shouldn't have done that. You didn't read it wrong at all Lake. There are other big cities in the South they could have pointed at but they picked Jacksonville, a Sister Florida City who used to have it over on Tampa.
Now that Jax is floundering, they're taking their chance to take their cheap shots; just the way I see it.
"HU"
They don't have many cities they can point fingers at and say "hey, we're doing better than them!" So of course Jax is a natural target.
They may be ahead of the curve when it comes to downtown redevelopment, but Tampa isn't a significant upgrade over Jax by any means.
heh, I’ve heard people describing it as a "trashy wanna-be Orlando" at times.
Tampa suffers from the same identity crisis that Jax does. Don't let them fool ya.
I've always and still prefer Tampa over Orlando. Tampa feels like a urban city. Orlando still lacks that feel on a large level. Anyway, Tampa definitely have it's issues but they do have Ybor, the Channel District, a streetcar line and a couple of museums under construction. They still have a way to go, but they have had some success in the connectivity arena, which in turn, breeds additional walkable development, which creates the vibrant nodes DT Jax still lacks. If we can take anything from Tampa, a lesson on the results of urban connectivity would be beneficial.
Having been to Tampa for the ACCCG last week, and staying on Harbour Island, I can tell you the city is isolated from the activities near their stadium. Sure their airport is closer to their downtown, but those areas appear to have grown in over the years, much like we are seeing between our downtown and our airport. I especially like the fact that we can take a simple $4 water taxi ride from the landing to the games, not many other places can boast that. Our river is our most valuable asset, and we need to do more to capitalize and build on that great fact.
Forget "Where Florida Begins", we should bring back "River City" and build upon that with events, nightlife and expansion of downtown to co-incide with the river.
I don't mean to take this too far off topic, but mtrain reminded me. I never did like "Where Florida Begins." To me, it always said "Hey, don't forget us, we are in Florida too -- We aren't Orlando, Miami, Tampa, PCB or Daytona, but we are here too."
"The River City" is boring, but at least it shows some central focus and something to be a focal point on which all else can grow from.
I think that Jacksonville, because of its sheer size, will always find itself in the crosshairs. We see our own Jacksonville as the big little city which we defend because it is human to defend the city we live in. But other cities see Jacksonville as the big and older brother who refuses to go to college, and really ought to know better.
The size of this city and its location, both geographically and weather-wise with all of the commercial implicatons, puts us in a much better orbit potentially than either Tampa or Charlotte. It's the potential of Jacksonville that set us apart. It just needs to be exploited.
Quote from: redglittercoffin on December 15, 2009, 09:17:52 AM
I don't mean to take this too far off topic, but mtrain reminded me. I never did like "Where Florida Begins." To me, it always said "Hey, don't forget us, we are in Florida too -- We aren't Orlando, Miami, Tampa, PCB or Daytona, but we are here too."
"The River City" is boring, but at least it shows some central focus and something to be a focal point on which all else can grow from.
I think "Where Florida Begins" is also telling everyone that it all started in Jacksonville...and it did. When Jacksonville first began as Cowford, and a couple of decades down the line when it became Jacksonville, Miami wasn't even thought of, South Florida had little to no towns, and Tampa was a small town; Jax was the premier City in Florida at that time...so, it all began here in the Jacksonville area, North Florida, and then filtered on down. Now that Jax is seeing hard times, I guess Tampa is seizing the opportunity because it is in much better shape, success-wise, than Jax.
"HU"
Quote from: heights unknown on December 15, 2009, 09:34:37 AM
I think "Where Florida Begins" is also telling everyone that it all started in Jacksonville...and it did. When Jacksonville first began as Cowford, and a couple of decades down the line when it became Jacksonville, Miami wasn't even thought of, South Florida had little to no towns, and Tampa was a small town; Jax was the premier City in Florida at that time...so, it all began here in the Jacksonville area, North Florida, and then filtered on down. Now that Jax is seeing hard times, I guess Tampa is seizing the opportunity because it is in much better shape, success-wise, than Jax.
"HU"
That's good stuff. I like the historical perspective, and it does add a bit to it.
I'm glad our leaders embrace it by helping to preserve some of our great history downtown. </sarcasm>
Quote from: mtraininjax on December 15, 2009, 04:33:21 AM
I can tell you the city is isolated from the activities near their stadium.
That's because the stadium is isolated from the City!
Yes but it started as Fort Caroline then Port Caroline.
I move to the Jax area this year from the Tampa area where I lived for over 40 years.
One of the problems Tampa has not overcome is sprawl, it is so spread out that there is no "One place" that identifies it. The diversity of Ybor city (past and present), the history of being "The Cigar City", and the proximity to beaches has formed the city identity.
Jacksonville suffers from the question "Jacksonville, So what?" From what I've seen around the rest of the state, Jacksonville is a city that you don't hate it or love it you just don't care. I was transferred here, would have never moved here. Not that it is a bad city, it is just an unknown city to the rest of the state. It has no identity, history, or attractions. We learned in Tampa that a winning NFL team will help in the eyes of the rest of the country but in the end you have to offer something more.
Until Jacksonville can give it's residents a reason to be proud to be here it won't matter how much money you throw at Mass transit plans, "River city" name, or downtown development.
I look forward to the day when I can answer the "Jax, so what?" question and hold my head high when I say "I live in Jacksonville"
JT
Welcome JT and thanks for the input.
As a newbie, if you haven't already, check out the History section of the forum and read for days on Jacksonville's rich and prestigious history and your question will be answered.
The new question is "How do we market Jacksonville and celebrate what we have?"
We have lots too be proud of here in Jacksonville, especially our history! we just do not play it up the way it should be.
Quote from: jtournade on December 16, 2009, 01:37:48 PM
. It has no identity, history, or attractions. We learned in Tampa that a winning NFL team will help in the eyes of the rest of the country but in the end you have to offer something more.
Yeah you're pretty much wrong about the history. In fact that's the one thing I feel is lacking when I travel to other Floridian cities. They all feel relatively new, recently built (as in the last 30-50 years)
I've yet to find any city in Florida that has historical neighborhoods on the scale that Jax has. If there is such a place, i'd like to know about it so I could explore for myself.
As for the rest of the big picture..yeah we have some catching up to do.
People don't move to a city because of its history, they may visit an historical city but then they leave. People are drawn to a city for what it offers today or even will tomorrow.
I'd move to a city for it's history. Family and friends hold me in Jax, but I love visiting the old cities in the Northeast and throughout the deep south.
But you're right, for a majority of people it's about the amentities.
i thought that whole previously know as Cowford thing was already debunked on this site?
Quote from: jtournade on December 16, 2009, 01:37:48 PM
I move to the Jax area this year from the Tampa area where I lived for over 40 years.
One of the problems Tampa has not overcome is sprawl, it is so spread out that there is no "One place" that identifies it. The diversity of Ybor city (past and present), the history of being "The Cigar City", and the proximity to beaches has formed the city identity.
Jacksonville suffers from the question "Jacksonville, So what?" From what I've seen around the rest of the state, Jacksonville is a city that you don't hate it or love it you just don't care. I was transferred here, would have never moved here. Not that it is a bad city, it is just an unknown city to the rest of the state. It has no identity, history, or attractions. We learned in Tampa that a winning NFL team will help in the eyes of the rest of the country but in the end you have to offer something more.
Until Jacksonville can give it's residents a reason to be proud to be here it won't matter how much money you throw at Mass transit plans, "River city" name, or downtown development.
I look forward to the day when I can answer the "Jax, so what?" question and hold my head high when I say "I live in Jacksonville"
JT
Well said and well put "JT." It's good when outsiders or previous outsiders who just moved here and give us more insight as to what we look like and are viewed from the outside; and it is not good in my opinion. Sad thing is, for the most part, excepting the history part, you're right JT!
"HU"
Quote from: Cricket on December 15, 2009, 09:24:31 AM
But other cities see Jacksonville as the big and older brother who refuses to go to college, and really ought to know better.
Now this is funny. I've never quite heard it put like this before.
jtournade you are absolutely wrong about us not having history, as many of the others have stated. We are steeped in history. I agree with Jason we Need to market and celebrate it much more.
Well, the problem with history especially southern history is that it can be a two-edged sword, great and not so great, and I hate to say it, but a big chunk of Jacksonville's history aint exactly pretty, if ya know what I mean. It is not easy to pick and choose the parts of history that make us feel good about ourselves although some of our historians try to do just that. Sooooo, I would prefer to look ahead to the kind of city that Jacksonville could become, rather than look back and try to find identity in our past..
IMO our identity is our present and our potential. History isn't who we are it's how we became who we are. The goal is not perfection but improvement.
QuoteIMO our identity is our present and our potential.
Jacksonville has a very progressive art/music scene, based on my experience living in NYC since
1987. But it isn't to be measured in$$$. And you arent gonna find out about it just anywhere. NYC is the greatest city in the world and the 20Th century
was the century of the city. But this is the 21st century and fast moving times are changing rules
for the city. In my opinion. Jax beaches and natural environments are treasures that i feel happy to
behold. With a most hospitable people.
Im sure Charlotte and Tampa are great places, but im not trading in my choice of Jax. Next year i believe our
population will increase because the city is such a treasure and good urban growth will come with it.
Well Charlotte as well as Tampa either have or will have a transit system to move people around where as Jacksonville is still trying to get one off the ground! Places to see, go to or visit require being able to get there! Using auto just increases congestion downtown and until we get something to move people around we are spinning our wheels! $ky way does not count and for $14 Million a year to operate.....it is a pit we throw money into with no return!
QuotePlease read the below article from TAMPABAY.COM. Since Tampa has had great success since the early 80's, they quickly forget where they come from, where they've been, and what they were before the Buccaneers came to town; not that the Bucaneers are the sole reason for Tampa's success, but they played a large part in exposing the world as to who and what the Tampa Bay Metro, in particular the City of Tampa, Florida was and is.
The article eludes to the success of Jacksonville over both Tampa and Charlotte, conceding only Jacksonvilles blighted downtown development (in pointing out leadership incompetency) as its drawback. The article itself points out to me that Jacksonville is the best place to be in the south.
QuoteWell Charlotte as well as Tampa either have or will have a transit system to move people around where as Jacksonville is still trying to get one off the ground! Places to see, go to or visit require being able to get there! Using auto just increases congestion downtown and until we get something to move people around we are spinning our wheels! $ky way does not count and for $14 Million a year to operate.....it is a pit we throw money into with no return!
Posted on: Yesterday at 09:56:39 PM
To move people around downtown is the Skyway. We cant force people to use this state of the art mass transit
if they dont want to. CS Foltz"s point about the city's lack of mass transit can be addressed by Jaxs small population, at less than 1 million ( in the largest geograghical municipality) it cant be justified for such a large
transit system as Foltz himself points out (at the skyway). But his point is correct that, today, now is the time to develop policy towards mass transit and cutting back the auto from jax mainstream life. Thats really hard when we are bombarded by auto dealershop ads and a very competent highway system.
The argument about the city having a too small of a population for decent mass transit is nothing more than an excuse. There are too many examples (ex. Salt Lake City, Charlotte, etc.) out there suggesting otherwise. Jacksonville will be better when we get to the point of where we stop making excuses for why we don't or can't make quality of life improvements that will make this city a better place to live. With this in mind, I love the can do attitude that Oklahoma City is bringing to the table on issues we continue to struggle with. Its time for Jax to grow a pair.
Quote from: CS Foltz on December 17, 2009, 06:48:59 AM
Well Charlotte as well as Tampa either have or will have a transit system to move people around where as Jacksonville is still trying to get one off the ground!
I'm not so sure CS....I think the Tampa streetcar line is comparable with our skyway....and I think it is entirely possible that we will have commuter rail before Tampa does!
The major difference between the skyway and Tampa's streetcar is that the streetcar actually goes into a couple of urban neighborhoods (Ybor, Channel District, etc.). On the flip side, the streetcar does not really serve the heart or north end of DT Tampa. Btw, I also think its possible that we will see commuter rail before Tampa does.
QuoteThe argument about the city having a too small of a population for decent mass transit is nothing more than an excuse.
After a discussion with my wife this morning, i stand corrected with lakelanders point.
She states its important to look at jacksonville metro situation from a non drivers neighborhood aspect. The destruction of Downtown Jax, indeed all of the us met areas is Walmart. She would be happy if she could step outside to get her conveniences. Not possible in DT Jax. With Walmart, et al, all conveniences can be handled
at the one stop. Walmart killed the small business,mom and pop store, essential to downtown areas ( i realize
i'm not saying anything we here dont all know!). So getting those services dt are essential. And today, such looks
like a long time away.
I guess getting such a store downtown would accelerate urban development, and then we need to tackle ongoing issues posted here concerning parking meters, one way streets ect. Actually we should probably deal with such issues now, which would be a requirement for a big store downtown.
There are a whole slew of successful Downtowns, non eof which have a Walmart. DT retail died before Walmart was a major player.
Wamart downtown sounds sweet. I now drive to the one on Phillips Hwy (could take a bus if I wanted to). Lots of surface parking lots available to sacrifice for one.