QuoteIn a potential blow to Jacksonville gaining a Hanjin Shipping terminal, the Korean company told the Jacksonville Port Authority in a Nov. 16 letter that a standstill on labor talks means Hanjin “will no longer be able to spend any more time or resources on this venture.â€
The letter was written by G.S. Choi, a high-ranking Hanjin executive who came to Jacksonville a year ago for the ceremony that signed an agreement between Hanjin and the Port Authority.
The agreement set Hanjin on course to build a terminal near the Dames Point bridge. It would make Jacksonville a major player in handling Asian-based cargo shipped to East Coast ports.
The terminal could be open for business in 2013, but construction is contingent on Hanjin first reaching agreement with the International Longshoremen’s Association on labor issues.
Hanjin officials did not return calls for comment Wednesday.
full article:
http://jacksonville.com/business/2009-12-09/story/ports_blockbuster_deal_with_hanjin_in_trouble
Is automation a sticking point for union labor? Is it a wage issue?
I'd hate to think the Union was sticking it to Jax, the port, Korean firm and ultimately themselves by stifling innovation.
That's terrible news for Jacksonville...
Lake - You are a muckraker, when you want to be. Nancy Rubin, Jaxport spokesperson:
Port Authority spokeswoman Nancy Rubin said JaxPort and Hanjin have talked since the port received the letter. She said she could not speak on behalf of Hanjin, but she said port officials remain confident the labor issues can be resolved.
“We think this is all going to work out,†she said Wednesday.
So the union does not want to eliminate jobs and cause containers to be unloaded using automation, I say EF-Them.
Nice, unions ruin everything from US Automakers to Levi's.
Once upon a time Unions were needed! That time has passed and then some!
Lake - You are a muckraker, when you want to be. Nancy Rubin, Jaxport spokesperson:
A muckraker? All he did was post a news story.
This could just be a ploy to get union concessions. It wouldn't be the first time a shipper has done so.
There are plenty of possiblities here. Maybe it is,
1. Ploy for barganing position with the union.
2. Excuse for not coming to JAX due to ecconomic down turn.
3. Actual deal stopping stumbling block in negociations with the union.
Often times it is not the wages it is the work rules. I really know nothing about the port and the unions involved. I do know that back when the Barnett Tower was bidding The Auchter Company, a local construction company, was trying to keep that job a local project but was competing against several out of town non-union companies. TAC tried to negotiate with the unions to make them more competitive and the unions wouldn't go for it. The project went to Morse Diesel from out of town and Auchter went non-union.
I think the union issue is just an excuse....the reality is Hanjin may want to delay or get out purely because shipments are down due to the global recession.
Doesn't seem too far outside the scope of possibility.^
Well could be a ploy or not. Global shipping is down from the numbers that I have seen but not sure if they are down enough for Hanjin to go elsewhere! Seems a bit strange but it is possible.........after all Jaxport has an agreement but nothing is set in stone and they don't have a financial interest that I am aware off. This is strictly a Jacksonville bet on the long range outlook!
Quote from: tufsu1 on December 10, 2009, 08:38:39 AM
I think the union issue is just an excuse....the reality is Hanjin may want to delay or get out purely because shipments are down due to the global recession.
BINGO! I agree TUFSU, we could be screwed. This isn't bad news boys and girls, this has the making of a full-out thermonuclear disaster. We should do anything and everything in our power to not only keep the Hanjin deal together, but the Hamburg Sud and Maersk possibilities hot on the burner too. OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: mtraininjax on December 09, 2009, 11:59:47 PM
Lake - You are a muckraker, when you want to be.
Seriously?
Maersk announced publicly that it was pulling out of the port of Charleston earlier this year. They account for 20% of the total tonnage there. The problem being union issues.
Immediately, the State Port Authority and the legislature got busy and got Maersk to reverse course a few months later. I think the unions made some significant concessions.
You can search on Maersk at the Charleston.net site for more details.
Enlighten me if I'm wrong, but I thought the city has been very hard at work trying to get this deal together. Why, then this quote from the article...
“Although we understand these things always take time, I think you will agree this project has been pushed aside long enough,†Choi wrote. “With thousands of new jobs and millions in revenue at stake, Hanjin Shipping expected much more support from both JaxPort and the city of Jacksonville. Despite our best efforts to make a Hanjin terminal in Jacksonville a reality, I’m afraid Hanjin Shipping will no longer be able to spend any more time or resources on this venture.â€
So what's the story? Is it labor issues or did the city give them the cold shoulder? (Neither of which would really surprise me). Either way, it sounds like Hanjin is done with us and this thing is over and done with.
IMO, sometimes a deal has to fall apart a few times before it works itself out, this could be a good sign! If, in fact, Hanjin and the labor union are at odds; they may both realize with the deal gone and off the table that any deal would be better than no deal.
Not so sure about that, downtown. Technically, Hanjin doesn't have to expect any deal to be better than no deal as they can get a deal done somewhere else. Also, in working with Asian countries in the past, I have found they typically do what they say and tend to be pretty stubborn to change their mind (regardless of which side is wrong). If a deal is removed from the table, it's going to take a lot of effort on the other parties part to get it back on the table. Good luck to Jax on getting it, but based on Choi's letter (what is listed in the article at least) I think as a city we are screwed on this one.
Quote from: mtraininjax on December 09, 2009, 11:59:47 PMLake - You are a muckraker, when you want to be.
Of all people on this site to call a muckraker. Wow.
Back on topic, this is hopefully where the Port behind closed doors is trying to get folks in line. We can't let this slip away for what is basically infighting.
Not sure just what the problem is but usually the Asiatic side is pretty blunt and up front! They don't play games or posture so off the top of my head...........problem is at the Jaxport end of things! Wether or not it is the Union or the City, someone had better got on this before we have a Port Facility with no business!
From Wikipedia: "A muckraker seeks to expose corruption of businesses or government to the public."
So, it's a compliment.
QuoteSo, it's a compliment.
Exactly. We now resume regularly scheduled programing.....
The Longshoreman's Union has had an uncanny ability to shoot itself in the head since the beginning of containerization. Their motto seems to be "better no jobs at all than any adjustments in our work rules." The leadership may just be holding out for bigger bribes.
Dog Walker.............you may have just nailed what the issue is! Asiatic side of the world is all about honor and commitment based upon agreed dealings. The concept of bribes is not old world day to day op's by their standards and Jaxport will suffer because of a select few! Ferrin had better tighten up the ship or Jacksonville can kiss that possibility goodby!
QuoteFerrin had better tighten up the ship or Jacksonville can kiss that possibility goodby!
How is Rick Ferrin supposed to control the union? Throw all the bums out? I'm sure he'd love to, but I don't think he can do so.
Why doesn't Hanjin just build their own terminal, hire their own people, and control the entire process themselves, sorry Rick, and not deal at all with JPA? That would be some serious Union Busting, and it would give the news stations something to do.
Do the Longshoremen have a contract forbidding any non-union workers from being utilized as any port authority employee?
Poorly worded. Can non-union workers be hired to work within the port, other than outside drivers?
Do the longshoremen have some sort of status under Federal law like the Railroad engineers did? If my murky memory serves I seem to remember some unions who were considered to be in interstate commerce came under Federal rather than State laws.
Does anyone have good information on this?
QuoteMayor John Peyton is optimistic Hanjin and the International Longshoremen's Association can reach agreement on labor issues for Hanjin's planned terminal in Jacksonville, mayoral spokeswoman Misty Skipper said Thursday.
When the Mayor speaks, does anyone listen? In case anyone wants to ask him a tough question, he will be at the opening of the Christmas celebration at the prime osborn tomorrow morning,
great event, have enough toys for 9000 kids.
Here we go again. Peyton, STEP UP or STEP DOWN! And yes the Mayor should STEP IN in situations such as this. Are we just going to quietly let this tremendous opportunity slip away and watch Port Canaveral, or Savannah, or Tampa, or Port Everglades get this venture? Jax needs a spanking if this one gets away!
Next thing we know we'll wake up one morning and the Jaguars will be in LA.
"HU"
Quote from: mtraininjax on December 11, 2009, 12:01:14 PM
QuoteFerrin had better tighten up the ship or Jacksonville can kiss that possibility goodby!
How is Rick Ferrin supposed to control the union? Throw all the bums out? I'm sure he'd love to, but I don't think he can do so.
Why doesn't Hanjin just build their own terminal, hire their own people, and control the entire process themselves, sorry Rick, and not deal at all with JPA? That would be some serious Union Busting, and it would give the news stations something to do.
Peyton spent last night with a close circle of JPA officials, at a seaonce in the Spiritual Lighthouse Church on Crestwood, just west of Norwood Avenue. They reportedly worked for hour's trying to revive the spirit of the late Ed Ball, to get his advice on handling the unions. No word yet on how well this turned out. OCKLAWAHA
Ock..........judging by what the so-called Mayor has done to this point and all of his accomplishments, you might be about right! That is about the only thing that he has not tried yet! Strong Leadership is not his forte, but he sure can whip out those "Fee's" when needed! No vision, no plan and no business sense what so ever......that will be his legacy!
Ed Ball BROKE the FEC's union. Union struck; Ball hired new people. Union brought in the Federal gov't; Ball stopped running out of Florida. Union put bombs on tracks and bridges; Ball had inspection trucks run ahead of the trains. Union picketed for years; Ball lived in the Robert Myers Hotel, enjoyed his Jack Daniels and ignored them.
The man was STUBBORN!
Ock could probably write a book about that sixteen year saga.
This just in, Mayor Peyton visited Little Rock for the world's largest ball of twine spinning competition. While there he spent an official $201.23 and reported back that all other expenses were paid by himself.
To this we say, that John Peyton's our mayor, yes he is.....
Like you say big guy...........is it 2011 yet?
I think it is interesting that the letter from Choi is dated Nov. 16, yet it didn't become public until weeks later. Jaxport has now had nearly a month to resolve this problem and apparently hasn't been able to do so. It sounds like the labor dispute on top of the economic situation might have been the excuse that Hanjin was looking for.
riverkeeper.........you do have a point! That date did catch my eye also but my first thought was the City was trying to get the wrinkles ironed out! If the Unions are at the heart of this...........Jaxport is screwed! I would be thinking about how I can return the favor to the Longshoremens Union!
This is neither here nor there ... but are Korean business practices similar to the Japanese?
Because some Japanese businesses will routinely engage in negotiating tactics that the American cultural perspective would consider hostile. Lots of threats break off negotiations, last minute contract changes, etc.
Threatening a city government over a union issue they can't control would be par for the course. But again, I have no idea if Koreans do the same thing.
Well, if they are North Korean they do! LOL!
Actually I found the Koreans very direct, honest and honorable in business relationships and negotiations. The Japanese tended to be IN-direct (oh so careful not to offend), honest and honorable. They were both among the most demanding, loyal and helpful of my overseas distributors. We learned a lot from them and really had to tighten our standards and performance to meet their expectations. Really good folk to do business with.
In my opinion, Hanjin isn't playing some sort of negotiating game. They are laying out their problems with the deal and basically saying that they don't think the one on our end, the longshoremen, is going to get fixed so they are moving on.
The ball is now in our court and we are going to have to move fast to salvage this deal.
Dog Walker..........I concur! Koreans are very black and white with their business dealings and expect the same from whomever they are doing business with! If the Union is the issue at this end............then John Boy better get things straightened out and quickly or it will be all over with! They do not have to have Jacksonville in order to operate within this hemisphere and Jaxport had better get it straightened quickly!
Why/how should the Mayor get involved in detailed union negotiations with port operators?
Quote from: heights unknown on December 11, 2009, 07:35:53 PM
Here we go again. Peyton, STEP UP or STEP DOWN! And yes the Mayor should STEP IN in situations such as this. Are we just going to quietly let this tremendous opportunity slip away and watch Port Canaveral, or Savannah, or Tampa, or Port Everglades get this venture? Jax needs a spanking if this one gets away!
Next thing we know we'll wake up one morning and the Jaguars will be in LA.
"HU"
But we can still end up with the world's largest collection of hot dog carts on a bridge.
Quote from: tufsu1 on December 14, 2009, 10:42:08 AM
Why/how should the Mayor get involved in detailed union negotiations with port operators?
If nothing else he can use his bully pulpit and his power of appointing JPA Board members and generally causing problems. SOMEBODY should have taken some leadership in this. Do you think that Jake Godbold would be just sitting there wringing his hands?
Well tufsu1 John Boy is the Mayor is he not? Leadership is not something that you can buy or trade for......and the Boy Blunder just does not get it.....he has no idea on what to do or how to do it! Just makes me wonder just who is pulling his strings!
Quote from: CS Foltz on December 14, 2009, 06:31:40 PM
Well tufsu1 John Boy is the Mayor is he not?
sure...but JPA is an independent authorty!
QuoteWhy/how should the Mayor get involved in detailed union negotiations with port operators?
Dog - I agree with you, the Mayor needs to do more than what he is doing now, which is nothing. He represents the entire city and his current actions really are pathetic. I sincerely wish someone could shame him into action, but I really don't think he cares, at least based on his actions.
tufsu1 any Mayor is supposed to "LEAD".......that is why they are elected! To this point Mayor Johnny is not leading nor do I see any signs of leading! City government is a microcosm of the Federal end and he is not doing the job for which he was elected which should be to set policy,establish principals and goals, lead in a direction that is good for the whole of the City, not just a select few! This has not happened in any shape or form to this point and to say I am disappointed is not saying anything. The City overall is paying the paying and it looks like Jaxport will be doing the same!
The mayor did not miss the opportunity for a speech with the Jags selling out Thursday night. My question is, where has he been otherwise? Did he go with Ferrin to the Labor Union's HQ in Houston? If not, he should have, on his own dime.
You all re assuming the Mayor is doing nothing....perhaps you are incorrect.
As I just stated in another thread, often it is best to keep negotiations private.
When you publish a letter from one of the negotiating partners saying that he is breaking off negotiations, then they aren't private anymore, are they?
that just means the ante has been raised....it doesn't mean talks aren't happening
The talks had better be between the port operators and the longshoreman's union then. Hanjin has clearly said that hey will not be talking again until that issue is settled.
note that JaxPort is one of the least union "controlled" around, which is partially why Hanjin came here in the first place....makes me think that Hanjin might want out for other reaons.
^Simple. The economy.
Economy is part of it............but still nothing about any talks being conducted!
Hanjin, union leaders agree on labor deal for Jacksonville terminal
By David BauerleinStory updated at 1:00 PM on Thursday, Jan. 21, 2010
Officials representing Hanjin and the International Longshoremen’s Association reached an agreement last week on the terms of a labor agreement for the planned Hanjin terminal in Jacksonville, a top union leader said today.
The agreement will undergo review by attorneys for Hanjin and the union, said Charles Spencer, executive vice president of the South Atlantic and Gulf Coast District of the ILA.
He said members of Jacksonville ILA locals would then vote on the proposed contract. He said no date has been set for when that would occur.
He declined to comment on details of the agreement but said union workers would benefit from the addition of good jobs through construction of the Hanjin terminal.
The Hanjin terminal is slated to open in 2013. The Jacksonville Port Authority board postponed selecting a firm to design the terminal after Hanjin sent a letter in November saying it would “not spend any more time or resources on this venture.â€
But Hanjin executives and ILA leaders met for two days last week in South Florida and reached the agreement.
http://jacksonville.com/business/2010-01-21/story/hanjin_union_leaders_agree_on_labor_deal_for_jacksonville_terminal
NIIICE!!!
Quote from: downtownjag on December 10, 2009, 02:39:10 PM
IMO, sometimes a deal has to fall apart a few times before it works itself out, this could be a good sign! If, in fact, Hanjin and the labor union are at odds; they may both realize with the deal gone and off the table that any deal would be better than no deal.
:-)
Great news.. but I am concerned about "review by the attorneys"... those guys always ruin everything!
But seriously.. this is very good news.
Quote from: CS Foltz on December 15, 2009, 06:08:58 PM
Economy is part of it............but still nothing about any talks being conducted!
happy yet...and do you think the Mayor and/or Mr. Ferrin had anything to do with this?
Quote from: stephendare on January 21, 2010, 02:10:21 PM
or maybe the federal designation as a superport?
I dunno there, tufsu.
you mean the state designation that came from the Florida Ports Council?
To be honest not sure just who from the Ports had the lead on this on..............I know it was not Rick Mullaney but I can not say from the City side who had the lead! Usually someone is tabbed "Lead Negotiator" but there has been no press release indicating anything............so if you say so, I'll take your word.........but I want to see it in print!
Quote from: mtraininjax on December 11, 2009, 12:01:14 PM
QuoteFerrin had better tighten up the ship or Jacksonville can kiss that possibility goodby!
How is Rick Ferrin supposed to control the union? Throw all the bums out? I'm sure he'd love to, but I don't think he can do so.
Why doesn't Hanjin just build their own terminal, hire their own people, and control the entire process themselves, sorry Rick, and not deal at all with JPA? That would be some serious Union Busting, and it would give the news stations something to do.
Hanjin's original idea was to fund and build their own terminal (they even had an entire design team on board and ready to go). Their timetable was to get it designed and built prior the widening/deepening of the Panama Canal that would allow the larger container ships from the Pacific to reach the east coast. They chose Jacksonville due to the location and existing port system. Unfortunately they had to go through the city for site selection and site purchasing. The folks the city put in charge of heading this up kept ehfing up so badly that the Hanjin people started to second guess Jacksonville on a whole. When they told Jax they were no longer interested, Jax came up with the idea that the city would build the port and lease it back to Hanjin, all Hanjin would have to provide was the automated crane equipment (which is in the mega millions of dollars). Hanjin became interested again, but since it was a city job, and the magnitude was so great, the selection of the design team would have to go out for public bid. Hanjin was ok with this as long as they could sit on the selection board. The city of Jax agreed that they could. Hanjin had two members on the selection board up to the short list selection. When it came time to select the finalist, the city removed the two hanjin board members at the last minute and replaced them with a city purchasing agent and city engineer, to my knowledge, who knew little to nothing about the project or how an automated port worked. Hanjin was not happy about this. They no longer had a say in who was going to build the port, but the team they wanted was rated first out of the three short listed. Hanjin sat in the crowd during the short list presentations, and cheered when the team they wanted finished their presentation. This made the city angry. After all three teams presentations where finished, the city board voted on a winner. Somehow after the vote, it was a three way tie. And the board did not know how to settle this to choose a winner. The two new city members that replaced the Hanjin members came up with a hair brained idea of adding up the votes in a way that made absolutely no sense. After this was done, the team that started the day in third place ended up getting awarded the project. Some of the things that were said by the new board members smelled of a prearranged behind closed city doors bs job with out of town lobbyists/palm greasers involved. Hanjin was not completely happy with the city of Jax at this point, but was willing to go along due to schedule time constrains.
Now the union issues are stirring Hanjin wrong and could be the straw to break the camel's back. Unfortunately the union is only thinking of itself and not all of the other businesses that lose out if this port does not happen.
In short, the city of Jax may have ehfed this one up a long time ago and is trying to hide their skeletons.
JaxNative68 that is about the flakest situation that I have ever heard of...................but knowing Johnny and his team just about par for the course! I think I hear skeletons rattling now! I am thinking just to wait and see just what takes place.............I don't think anything will come to fruition and Jaxport is sucking wind!
QuoteThis made the city angry.
I have been involved in a number of city contracts, even some that cost the city money because some idiot on the 4th floor in legal did not read a contract the right way. If Peyton has done anything, he has brought in more and more good people who review the details. If Hanjin really got up and was peeod over who was building the city leased dock, they can take their game and go somewhere else. That was a heckuva deal the city gave them, and for the city to give up control, would have been wrong and much worse (shipyards) for the taxpayers.
I don't give Peyton much if any credit, here, his people did the right thing in looking out for the best interest of the citizens of Jacksonville. They took a stand, and look Hanjin is still here, so they must want us more than we need them.
mtraininjax...........I have my toes crossed! Like I said before, I am just going to sit back and see what takes place!
Quote from: mtraininjax on January 22, 2010, 07:14:44 PM
QuoteThis made the city angry.
I have been involved in a number of city contracts, even some that cost the city money because some idiot on the 4th floor in legal did not read a contract the right way. If Peyton has done anything, he has brought in more and more good people who review the details. If Hanjin really got up and was peeod over who was building the city leased dock, they can take their game and go somewhere else. That was a heckuva deal the city gave them, and for the city to give up control, would have been wrong and much worse (shipyards) for the taxpayers.
I don't give Peyton much if any credit, here, his people did the right thing in looking out for the best interest of the citizens of Jacksonville. They took a stand, and look Hanjin is still here, so they must want us more than we need them.
say what you must, but this one smells to me.
from what I understand, this was discussed at the JaxPort board meeting today...the agreement is going to the attorneys and, if all goes well, will be complete in about 2 months.
In all likelihood Hanjin is going to acquiesce, by creating enough bs jobs to keep the labor unions happy and this project will move forward. But I’m still disappointed in how the design team was selected.
Who is on the team?
it isn't who is on the team that bothers me, it was just the selection process.
Halcrow, Inc. was the team that ended up winning (who has no past experience with automated terminals).
Quote from: JaxNative68 on January 25, 2010, 05:21:22 PM
it isn't who is on the team that bothers me, it was just the selection process.
Halcrow, Inc. was the team that ended up winning (who has no past experience with automated terminals).
actually, Halcrow was ranked #1 (after a tiebreaker) by the technical committee....the final decision is made by the Board, and they have not voted yet.
Quoteit was just the selection process.
Know EXACTLY how you feel. We were shut out of bidding for parts on the new downtown library, we had the exact spec and could fit the need, but the JPL Advisory board, wanted to follow with the same manufacturer used in the Nashville Library, which was also designed by the same architects, so even being local had no value with the JPL. In the end, the business went to a Miami vendor who carried that product.
The selection processes in Jacksonville are usually not fair to local vendors or local interests.
Quote from: mtraininjax on January 26, 2010, 05:38:43 AM
The selection processes in Jacksonville are usually not fair to local vendors or local interests.
actually I disagree....most City contracts provide a credit (around 5 points) for local firms....and last year there was a move to raise the credit and offer it only to firms with local hedquarters....that was ultimately squashed, as it should have been...why give advantage to a 20 person local firm over a firm with 200 people here but HQ in another city.
Because you want to keep as many dollars in your city as you can?
Local firms and their employees pay local property and sales tax on a permanent basis. Not that I disagree with your sentiment, tufsu. As a politician, that would be my logic.
There is also the consideration of which firm can better serve those making the decisions. (if not the project itself)
Quote from: buckethead on January 26, 2010, 09:19:44 AM
Because you want to keep as many dollars in your city as you can?
Local firms and their employees pay local property and sales tax on a permanent basis.
exactly...which is why a firm with a 200-person local office (regardless of HQ location) should carry as much (if not more) weight as a locally-HQ firm with 20 employees.
Hanjin has been threatening to pull the plug again. All due to the union insisting that Hanjin needs to have more BS jobs for their worthless union people on Hanjin's payroll.
errr...i can't stand unions. i don't dislike the regular workers who belong to unions, but i really despise union leadership. it is the epitome of a whole political ideology i also despise. whenever there is some sort of problem affecting businesses, you can most certainly look straight at the unions.
i heard a rumor today that Jacksonville officially killed the hanjin deal and it is no longer being pursued. has anyone else heard any truth to this?
Quote from: JaxNative68 on February 07, 2011, 06:40:40 PM
i heard a rumor today that Jacksonville officially killed the hanjin deal and it is no longer being pursued. has anyone else heard any truth to this?
nope...it is just on hold pending the mile point fix and a rejevenated economy
Here's my bet on how this thing goes down...
1. JAXPORT pushes forward and secures partial funding for the deepening
2. JAXPORT goads COJ into issuing additional financing (bonds, tax, etc.) to cover the gaps they couldn't fill with federal & state money
3. Riverkeeper and other concerned entities file suit, successfully gaining several injunctions to delay the beginning of the project
4. By the time the lawsuit is settled, Hanjin will back out of the deal anyway, because at that point Savannah & Charleston will be so far ahead on post-Panamax infrastructure that they will have ready-made space to accommodate Hanjin (and will have been marketing this point to Hanjin for the entire duration of the "do we or don't we" dredging lawsuit).
Make no mistake...Hanjin is not delaying this deal simply out of a desire to give COJ/JAXPORT time to sort their demons. Check out the volume and price of new-build ships that Hanjin has ordered & taken delivery of during the past 2 years. Like any large infrastructure conglomerate, they invest when the market is bad so that the pieces are in place to take full advantage of a booming economy. They don't wait for the economy to come back before embarking on a 3 year capital construction project.
They are delaying and agreeing to delays because they have already decided to look elsewhere. They just retain more bargaining leverage with the other ports if the Jacksonville plan is still officially "on."
Savannah sold its soul to keep its port capability. Hardly anyone lives on the river between Tybee and the city center, why?
Who wants to look at 6-7 stories of containers out their window?
This is what people have to look forward to here between Dames Point & Mayport.
^^^Who the hell wants to live on the river between Dames Point and Mayport anyway? There are dozens upon dozens of miles of riverfront from downtown South in much more scenic and boat friendly areas.
Talleyrand to Blount Island (or even Atlantic Marine/Mayport) should be straight industrial like the eastern waterways of Houston. That is a God-given resource that most cities would kill to have and shouldn't be taken up by single family homes that can be built elsewhere.
bornnative's post sounds pretty reasonable/logical. Therefore I'm worried and dismayed.
Quote from: spuwho on February 07, 2011, 10:52:51 PM
Savannah sold its soul to keep its port capability. Hardly anyone lives on the river between Tybee and the city center, why?
Who wants to look at 6-7 stories of containers out their window?
This is what people have to look forward to here between Dames Point & Mayport.
That kind of thinking is what ruined downtown Jacksonville. I'd rather look at ugly stuff and have a successful local economy than the reverse.
I'd like to add on to bornnative's post as well. And the logical reasoning for delays that could just have Hanjin saying we can now go here instead. Tonight at the city council meeting 2011-43 is ready for council. $1,000,000 from FDOT for Timucuan National Preserve Bicycle Touring Route.
Which is better for the local economy and creating jobs.
Tourism or Port jobs?
Can we have both?
The same could have been said for putting the new cruise ship terminal near the Timucuan and not at Mayport. We don't want to kayak or bike the Timucuan and look at a big ship whether its a container ship or a cruise ship. The National Park is a special interest group too.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on February 08, 2011, 03:38:09 AM
Quote from: spuwho on February 07, 2011, 10:52:51 PM
Savannah sold its soul to keep its port capability. Hardly anyone lives on the river between Tybee and the city center, why?
Who wants to look at 6-7 stories of containers out their window?
This is what people have to look forward to here between Dames Point & Mayport.
That kind of thinking is what ruined downtown Jacksonville. I'd rather look at ugly stuff and have a successful local economy than the reverse.
One man's trash is another man's treasure. I like driving across the Hart and Matthews Bridges because of the good view they give you of all the industry along Talleyrand and Commodore's Point. I also found Norfolk's riverfront "alive". From the riverwalk, you can get a great look at major ships being built and repaired.
(http://www.memach.com/nuhm/images/YardAerial2007-c.png)
Quote from: tufsu1 on January 26, 2010, 09:36:37 AM
Quote from: buckethead on January 26, 2010, 09:19:44 AM
Because you want to keep as many dollars in your city as you can?
Local firms and their employees pay local property and sales tax on a permanent basis.
exactly...which is why a firm with a 200-person local office (regardless of HQ location) should carry as much (if not more) weight as a locally-HQ firm with 20 employees.
Come on tufsu. If it was a $200 million dollar project, the local firm would keep all the money, and probably enable them to expand and grow their market share. If it is a company with twice the people in Jax, but headquartered elsewhere, the majority of that money is going to headquarters to then be dispersed back to all branches as they see fit. I see what you mean about property tax, but that is not the only money a business contributes to a city (hopefully).
but a locally HQ firm of 20 employees likely couldn't do a $200 million project.
nevertheless, I can assure you that large firms still keep a significant amount of work in their local offices....and since the majority of cost involved in professional service contracts (which is what the local preference policy refers to) are salaries and other labor costs, the money would still stay local.
Quote from: tufsu1 on January 26, 2010, 08:40:47 AM
Quote from: mtraininjax on January 26, 2010, 05:38:43 AM
The selection processes in Jacksonville are usually not fair to local vendors or local interests.
actually I disagree....most City contracts provide a credit (around 5 points) for local firms....and last year there was a move to raise the credit and offer it only to firms with local hedquarters....that was ultimately squashed, as it should have been...why give advantage to a 20 person local firm over a firm with 200 people here but HQ in another city.
What an asinine statement.
1: If a 20 person firm can do the job as well as a 200 person firm, then why not?
2: If the firm is local, that should be a primary consideration, especially in this economy.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on February 08, 2011, 01:33:57 PM
What an asinine statement.
1: If a 20 person firm can do the job as well as a 200 person firm, then why not?
2: If the firm is local, that should be a primary consideration, especially in this economy.
I don't think the quantity of staff is a consideration, they were basing on the HQ location - which is assinine. I don't the company is based in Anchorage, if they're having their local branch do the job, then they should get the same considreration as a group that's HQ'd here.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on February 08, 2011, 01:33:57 PM
What an asinine statement.
1: If a 20 person firm can do the job as well as a 200 person firm, then why not?
2: If the firm is local, that should be a primary consideration, especially in this economy.
I agree...if a 20 person firm can do it, great.
The issue is whether a 20-person local firm should get preference over a 200 person firm that has 10 offices (of which 1 is local) just because their HQ isn't in Jax.
Basing everything on local HQ means firms like RS&H and Haskell win every time.