Metro Jacksonville

The rail deal in Tallahassee is mostly about benefiting CSX

The Great Train Robbery of 2009
By Howard Troxler, Times Columnist

Published Saturday, December 5, 2009


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Here is the question of the hour, the week, the month and maybe the year in Tallahassee:

Why are our governor and the bosses of our Legislature suddenly all hot and insistent that what Florida needs most is ... commuter rail?

Why are we suddenly willing to spend something like $1.2 billion of your money, my money, state money, local money, federal money?

Why are they suddenly crying that we absolutely must say yes, so we can chase billions more in President Barack Obama's "stimulus" money that they previously despised?

Why are they promising the magical creation of hundreds of thousands of jobs (if that promise has not been exaggerated into millions by now) through massive spending?

Why have they called the Florida Legislature into an extraordinary session on short notice, demanding that this deal be passed right now?

Mass transit. A billion-plus dollars. Stimulus money. Job creation though big spending. Who are they â€" the Democrats in Congress?

Here is the why.

It is about benefiting a big, powerful company, namely the CSX Corp., with one of the sweetest sweetheart deals ever proposed in Florida.

The rest is window dressing.

It is pretty window dressing, no question. It is designed to appease the choo-choo lovers, the urban planners, the idealists. If they back this gravy train now, maybe they get a drop later.

There is lots of nice wording in this deal about a "statewide rail policy," about how the state promises to pay for it all down the road. The deal contains a bribe to South Florida for the rail system down there. Hey, we'll even revive our lip service to high-speed rail.

But this is mostly about three things:

• Paying CSX an outrageous price for 61 miles of track in Orlando to transfer the ownership to the state. Of course, the railroad still gets to use the tracks anyway.

• Shifting legal liability from CSX to taxpayers, except in only the most egregious cases of the railroad's negligence.

• Allowing CSX dramatic increases in the number of freight trains it can send on another route, with serious impacts on a string of cities such as Dade City, Plant City and Lakeland.

For once, however, the deal in the Capitol is not totally rigged. The most rare and precious of events is happening in the Legislature: an honest debate, an open fight.

The opposition is led by state Sen. Paula Dockery, R-Lakeland, who is seriously improving her long-shot campaign for governor with her mastery of the issue. The other day she single-handedly cut to ribbons a panel of her colleagues who could only mouth platitudes.

"We are paying them," Dockery said, "10 times what their corridor is worth for the honor of owning that corridor. It's now our corridor. So they're introducing freight into our passenger rail corridor. They should be indemnifying us. Not the other way around."  

We really don't even need to buy the track, Dockery argued, only pay for increasing the capacity.

"So why," she asked, "are we costing the taxpayers $641 million when we don't need to buy the track in the first place?"

Her colleague, Republican Joe Negron, could only answer lamely: "Any proposed business arrangement has its pros and cons."

No kidding.

http://www.tampabay.com/news/politics/legislature/the-rail-deal-in-tallahassee-is-mostly-about-benefiting-csx/1056766

Print version of online article

We tried to tell rep Dockery last year try for a better deal. She only wanted to hear kill it now she complains it should be a better deal.

Quote from: JeffreyS on December 07, 2009, 02:58:42 PM
We tried to tell rep Dockery last year try for a better deal. She only wanted to hear kill it now she complains it should be a better deal.

She always said it should be a better deal. But first it had to be killed to open the door to a better deal, and here is one of her suggestions ( remember she's a Republican and I'm a Democrat, but neither of us likes wasting tax payer monies  to primarily benefit developers):

QuoteWe really don't even need to buy the track, Dockery argued, only pay for increasing the capacity.

But developers have their eyes feasting on getting this sprawl rail on the road asap, pardon the pun.

They think the fastest way to get sprawl rail on the road is to offer CSX a sweetheart deal.

She is now that HSR has been tied to Sunrail. I feel for her I think she wanted to protect Lake land from freight traffic. CSX is going to send those trains her way Sunrail or not. Now she has no time I would love for her to have spent the last two years trying to be constructive. She came at this from one side and did not negotiate.  All in win or lose. Now it may be a choice between bad deal or no deal.
On the upside no deal may force us to work with Amtrak.

I generally like Troxler...but he's way off base this time!

remember that CSX intends to use some of the proceeds from the sale to contruct rail in Jax. to better serve the port.

Quote from: JeffreyS on December 07, 2009, 03:18:39 PM
I would love for her to have spent the last two years trying to be constructive. She came at this from one side and did not negotiate.  All in win or lose. Now it may be a choice between bad deal or no deal.
On the upside no deal may force us to work with Amtrak.

It's always been a choice between a bad deal or no deal, as no changes have EVER been allowed in all three go-arounds:

QuotePosted on Fri, Dec. 04, 2009
Florida House resists changing commuter rail bill
By BRENT KALLESTAD
Associated Press Writer

The Florida House wrangled Friday over a proposal to create a commuter rail system in central Florida as a prelude to the bill's expected passage in that chamber Monday.

The situation, though, isn't as clear in the Senate, which twice before has defeated similar measures.

Supporters say the legislation must pass if Florida expects to have any chance of attracting $2.6 billion in federal stimulus money to build a high-speed rail system between Orlando and Tampa with a possible future link to Miami.

The Republican-dominated House knocked back a series of Democratic amendments, leaving the bill (HB 1B) basically intact.

"As you could see through the amendatory process, it's a work product we plan on staying with," said Rep. Gary Aubuchon, a Cape Coral Republican sponsoring the legislation.

All they did was sweeten the pie by throwing Tri-Rail a bone and using the suspicious threat that HSR hinges on Sunrail:

QuoteBut questions remained Friday in the House over issues such as per-rider costs, state liability resulting from rail accidents and the cost of buying 61 miles of existing rail for the commuter line between Poinciana and DeLand in central Florida.

The proposal would also include a $15 million annual state subsidy for financially troubled Tri-Rail commuter system in South Florida.

http://www.bradenton.com/news/breaking_news/v-print/story/1894123.html

game-playing at its finest.

Agree.

Monday update:

QuoteHouse passes SunRail bill, 84-25, but faces uncertain Senate future

By Aaron Deslatte and Josh Hafenbrack, Tallahassee Bureau

TALLAHASSEE â€" The Florida House passed a rail package in rapid-fashion Monday to launch the SunRail commuter train, bail out South Florida's troubled transit system, and set the stage to collect up to $2.6 billion in federal stimulus money for a bullet-train.

The final 84-25 vote came after three days of muted debate in the special legislative session called to jump-start long-stalled commuter rail projects and position Florida to better compete for federal transit cash that could be awarded in January. However, Rail critics called it a rushed effort that didn’t adequately settle how any of the rail systems would be funded or used.

“It’s not perfect. It isn’t everything you want. But it’s a first step,” Rep. Gary Aubuchon, the Cape Coral Republican sponsoring the proposal, said in closing remarks on the floor.

Besides giving the green-light to SunRail, the package would divert some $60 million to a statewide Rail Enterprise in the future and send an additional $15 million to Tri-Rail. Supporters also say it better positions the state to land up to $2.6 billion for high-speed rail between Tampa and Orlando.

Democratic Rep. Ron Saunders of Key West complained if lawmakers wanted to stem job losses they could have used the nine-day special session to lesson the blow of business unemployment tax increases headed down the pipeline next year, or talk about home foreclosures.

"We're not talking about any of that," Saunders said. Passage was largely considered pro-forma in the House, which also passed a SunRail-only bill in 2008. All of Central Florida's House delegation voted for the package (HB 1B).

“We can’t pave enough roads. We can’t add enough lanes to handle the visitors and tourists that come to Florida,” said Rep. Geraldine Thompson, D-Orlando.

Now the proposal heads to a more skeptical Florida Senate, where it faces uncertain odds. Twice in the last two years, SunRail supporters have been unable to muster the 21 votes needed to pass the proposal creating the "no-fault" insurance agreement for operators on what would become a shared commuter/freight line beginning in 2012, when the first passenger cars began rolling between Poinciana and DeLand.

"We really don't know what will happen in the Senate," House Speaker Larry Cretul said. "But we're going to give them all the time until the expiration of the session" on Friday.

Gov. Charlie Crist said he was encouraged by the House vote, and he was lobbying a handful of senators.

"I think, obviously, it would be great for transportation," the governor told reporters. "It would be great for stimulating our economy. And the possibility of getting high speed rail thereafter is just tremendous for Florida and our future."

One of the central issues this week could be union protections sought by the Florida AFL-CIO for rail workers along state-run rail lines.

Senate President Jeff Atwater's office initially tried to work with the unions on the language, but House leaders are unwilling to go along with the protections -- and said Monday they would send the bill into conference negotiations if the Senate adds the language.

"We absolutely would," Aubuchon said.

At least four Central Florida senators -- Carey Baker, R-Eustis, Gary Siplin, D-Orlando, Paula Dockery, R-Lakeland, and Evelyn Lynn, R-Ormond Beach -- are considered no votes. Another SunRail supporter last spring -- Democratic Sen. Larcenia Bullard of Miami -- recently suffered a heart attack and is not in Tallahassee for the session.

That could force Atwater to deal with the unions. Senate Democrats are deeply skeptical over the rail package â€" if a rowdy lunchtime caucus meeting Monday is any indication.

Sen. Jeremy Ring, D-Parkland, the sponsor of the bill to build a 61-mile commuter system in Orlando and provide additional funding to South Florida's Tri-Rail system, was grilled by fellow Dems over the bill’s lack of protections for union workers.

Ring tried to downplay the bill as merely creating an infrastructure for rail projects in Florida, but other Democrats think the bill doesn’t do enough to protect union jobs and is a financial boon for CSX, to whom the state would pay $432 million to acquire the SunRail track bed.

Ring said the union concerns are “not a dead issue.”

At one point, Ring said Tri-Rail’s financial struggles are Tallahassee’s fault â€" eliciting a strong rebuke from other Democrats.

“You’re misleading the people,” said Sen. Tony Hill, D-Jacksonville, who said Tri-Rail itself is the culprit.

“It’s OK to disagree professionally,” Ring shot back.

Sen. Gary Siplin, D-Orlando, said, “Yeah, but I’m not stupid though.”

The gathering remained testy. When Orlando Mayor Buddy Dyer spoke to the group, he cited President Obama’s commitment to commuter rail projects with $8 billion in stimulus money, a message crafted for a Democratic audience.

Sen. Nan Rich, D-Weston, wasn’t buying. “I would like to know if the president would support this bill, knowing what it does to workers,” she said. “He ran on a little bit different platform.”

Ring said not passing the bill would have severe consequences.

“Unfortunately, if we don’t do something, this is the end,” he said. “This is the end of Tri-Rail, the end of rail systems in Florida.”

Dyer told Senate Democrats that passing the rail bill would make a "huge statement" to federal officials, who are deciding how to divvy up $8 billion in stimulus money for high-speed rail.

"We have an opportunity to move forward with the rest of the country," he said. "If we don't take that opportunity, we're going to be left behind."

Union concerns, though, are clearly carrying the day for most Senate Democrats â€" perhaps all but Ring. Without at least a few Democratic votes, it’s going to be hard for Senate leaders to muster enough votes to get it through his chamber. As the meeting ended, Hill wagged his finger at Ring and said: “Get it right, Jeremy. Get it right.”

Meanwhile, anti-tax groups were planning an afternoon rally at the Capitol to oppose the rail package.

Dockery took the podium at a noon press conference held by anti-tax groups like Orlando radio host Doug Guetzloe's Ax The Tax, and blasted the financial deal with CSX Transportation.

Dockery said the $432 million price-tag for the 61.5 miles of track from Volusia to Osceola counties was too much for the rail line compared to other rail purchases in other states, a point that supporters say is misleading because many of those deals were for rural or abandoned tracks.

Another problem she has is with the liability language that would let CSX avoid paying big settlements if their freight trains cause wrecks.

Dockery also said it was no guarantee that all $570 million in federal stimulus money the state has requested for SunRail will be awarded ($300 million of that is actually needed for the project; the $270 million requested through the Federal Rail Administration is gravy, and might not get awarded since it's supposed to pay for high-speed rail, not commuter rail).

"This is a $1.2 billion boondoggle that nobody is going to ride," Dockery said.

Dockery said she hasn't taken a vote count in two weeks, but feels members are "being beat up" by Senate leadership to get in line and vote for the bill.

She also said if she's elected governor, she plans to clean house at the Florida Department of Transportation, the agency she has been in a pitched battle with for two years now.

"The leadership of that agency is completely out of control."

http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/news_politics/2009/12/house-passes-sunrail-bill-8425.html

Well I agree with her idea about cleaning house at FDOT! I also have to agree with the idea of $432 Million for 61.5 miles of track abit on the high side. I think that works out to 2.21 million per mile but that is used track not new and has handled freight till now. ROW is what is important but CSX is still coming out ahead! How about we nationalize all Rail Roads in that part of the world, then it would cost us nothing! Bill still has to pass Senate and I see problems trying to make it through that house!

The $432 million for 61.5 miles of track is largely off base.  That's the main thing I don't like about Dockery.  If you don't like something, fine.  Go ahead and present your case.  However, lets not distort the facts and misguide people on them.  To this day, I'm still suprised that no one has really called her at on this.

lake I am somewhat confused now....................just what is the figure......do you know? From what I have seen that figure (if accurate) is low but I am assuming that it is heavily used by high weight trains and in need of upgrading and or refurbishment? ROW is what is critical, along with CSX agreements for liability.......past that scheduling next up and with the proper RDU's or what ever away we go!

We've had these numbers on site before, so I'll look them up later but I believe the actual track purchase is $150 million for the 61 mile stretch.  The rest of the money included most likely comes from two additional areas:

- FDOT overpasses over the CSX S line. Its not CSX's responsibility to build highway overpasses over rail.  That's the state's.

- Upgrades to the CSX S line to handled the added freight from relocating freight trains from the A line.  If you're going to negatively impact a business and demand that they limit access to Tampa and Orlando, you should help financially in creating an alternative route that keeps trucks off the roads and your rail dependent companies happy.  

If people don't agree with the upgrades to the S line, perhaps they should be talking about a deal that keeps CSX on the A line.  However, such a deal would also be bad for commuter rail because freight movement would remain the top priority, meaning commuter rail times would be unreliable.

Do we know what CSX pays to lease the tracks back?

CSX will pay a $0.39/per car charge and $1.25 million/year fixed fee for use of the corridor.  The correct Sunrail costs are included in this linked document.

http://www.metroplanorlando.com/site/upload/documents/CommuterRail_MythsFacts_June2008.pdf


Btw, here is an interesting read on the baloney being tossed around in this cost debate:

QuoteCSX-Dockery-SunRail soap opera rolls on

TALLAHASSEE -- Just when you thought it was safe to read a CSX story without a calculator in hand: Sen. Paula Dockery, R-Lakeland, sent out a memo to state senators Wednesday claiming that a letter she got from the Federal Transit Administration showed the SunRail commuter train project didn’t have a commitment for the full $307 million it needs from the feds, but only $178 million.

Both sides of the Great Rail Debate have flubbed or fudged numbers over the last year.

The Florida Department of Transportation, for instance, omitted the growing $214 million cost of improving five overpasses along CSX tracks; Dockery claimed the real price tag of the project was $2.66 billion instead of $1.2 billion, once 30 years of operations costs were factored in (kinda like saying the cost of buying a new house should include three decades of air conditioning and cable bills).

It's enough to leave the casual observer and poorly paid journalist a little flummoxed. We’ll try to decode.

“Many of you have received correspondence relaying threats that Florida will forfeit its entitlements to federal transportation funding if it does not pass the enabling legislation for the CSX transaction," Dockery writes in the memo sent to senators and their staff. "This correspondence claims that ‘hundreds of millions of dollars’ in federal transportation funding is at stake and Florida’s entitlement to this funding is ‘in jeopardy’ to other states with competing projects.

“While it is true that Florida is in competition with other states for limited federal transportation dollars, it is untrue that Florida has any entitlement to federal funding in the amounts or the level of priority that we, as legislators, are being led to believe.”

She includes a list of questions she got answered by the FTA outlining the federal government’s commitment to funding $178 million in the first phase of the commuter rail project.

Read them here:  Download DockeryFTA_to_Noranne_Downs 4-11-08 Download 2009-02-27 - Dockery Questions and Answers - from FTA

The $178 million referenced in the letter is the same figure Sen. Alex Villalobos, R-Miami, used Tuesday in an amendment to the budget to require that the state have that much federal funding in hand before it can buy the CSX tracks.

But that is the federal share for only the first “Initial Operating Segment” of the line â€" the 32-mile stretch from DeLand to Kissimmee slated to open first -- not the entire 61.5-mile route that's eventually planned.

"Once again, the Honorable Senator manipulates the facts to suit her argument,” says Russell Roberts, chief of staff to U.S. Rep. John Mica, R-Winter Park.

Roberts said that the full 61.5-mile routeis in its final design stage with the feds and has completed its environmental assessment. Florida broke its request into two pieces “to allow it to better compete against other projects around the country,” he added.  

The final agreement for funding for the first leg is due in October, and the second request to get the rest of the $307 million in federal money for the rail system would be made immediately after that. It will be up to Florida's congressional delegation to keep pressing the project in Washington.

MetroPlan Orlando Executive Director Harry Barley offered a concession to Dockery.

“She’s correct: that money is not in our checking account. We’re still competing for those funds with other parts of the country,” he said.

That’s why U.S. Reps. Mica and Corrine Brown, D-Jacksonville, who both sit on the House Transportation Committee, have been so adamant about closing on the state’s end of the agreement with CSX â€" the insurance liability agreement that would split liability for rail accidents between CSX and the state â€" so they can cement the federal funding.

“We don’t have a project unless the deal is consummated with CSX.”

Meanwhile, Sen. Lee Constantine, R-Altamont Springs, and Gov. Charlie Crist huddled at the Governor’s Mansion for about half an hour last night to talk about the commuter rail project’s chances of passage over the last three weeks of session.

“He’s engaged. He’s on board. He understands what we have to do,” Constantine said.

Constantine called next Wednesday’s scheduled hearing of the commuter plan’s insurance deal before the state Senate Transportation and Economic Development Appropriations Committee “the Red-Letter Day for SunRail.”

He plans to offer a strike-all for the CSX Corp. insurance plan that incorporates the language inserted in the Senate budget this week designed to convince anxious senators that the state wouldn’t start spending its money until the federal dollars were flowing, as well as demands from the city of Lakeland to address its freight train traffic.

But like last year, the biggest impediments will be Dockery, and the difficulty explaining the finer details of the federal-state-local transit project.

“Paula has the 15-second argument,” Constantine says. “We have the 15-minute argument.”

http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/news_politics/2009/04/csxdockerysunrail-soap-opera-rolls-on.html

Quote from: thelakelander on December 08, 2009, 06:48:30 AM
The $432 million for 61.5 miles of track is largely off base.  That's the main thing I don't like about Dockery.  If you don't like something, fine.  Go ahead and present your case.  However, lets not distort the facts and misguide people on them.  To this day, I'm still suprised that no one has really called her at on this.

You are off base yourself.
CSX will actually get direct payments of $491 million according to page 4 of
http://www.metroplanorlando.com/site/upload/documents/CommuterRail_MythsFacts_June2008.pdf

CSX will also get indirect payments this way:
FDOT will construct five grade separations on the S-line at $214 million

Additionally there will be $615 million in capital costs to construct 17 station stops, parking lots etc. including $65 for double-tracking to provide for passenger rail operations as 41 miles of freight operations is currently on single track.

Hence the $1.2 billion cost tag excluding operations and maintenance which is estimated at another $1.2 billion over 30 years, for a whopping total of $2.4 billion.

Quote from: FayeforCure on December 08, 2009, 12:23:38 PM
CSX will actually get direct payments of $491 million according to page 4 of
http://www.metroplanorlando.com/site/upload/documents/CommuterRail_MythsFacts_June2008.pdf

CSX will also get indirect payments this way:
FDOT will construct five grade separations on the S-line at $214 million

Additionally there will be $615 million in capital costs to construct 17 station stops, parking lots etc. including $65 for double-tracking to provide for passenger rail operations as 41 miles of freight operations is currently on single track.

Hence the $1.2 billion cost tag excluding operations and maintenance which is estimated at another $1.2 billion over 30 years, for a whopping total of $2.4 billion.

And here is another excellent piece of game-playing:

QuoteAnd while the bill easily passed the House on Monday, it barely made it out of its first Senate committee.

It cleared the Senate Transportation Committee in a 5-4 vote only after the Senate president had substituted a pro-rail senator for another senator who was absent because of a heart condition. Without that substitution, the bill would have failed on a 4-4 vote.

http://www.theledger.com/article/20091207/NEWS/912075069/1338?tc=autorefresh

Faye, I would not be suprised if the Senate kills it.  If they do, I hope the HSR thing dies with it.

QuoteCSX will also get indirect payments this way:
FDOT will construct five grade separations on the S-line at $214 million

That's not an indirect payment to CSX, those are FDOT road projects.  Whether there is an at-grade crossing or overpass, its not going to impact CSX's decision on how many trains they run on their lines.

QuoteAdditionally there will be $615 million in capital costs to construct 17 station stops, parking lots etc. including $65 for double-tracking to provide for passenger rail operations as 41 miles of freight operations is currently on single track.

It could be worse, sort of like paying $2 billion for a slightly longer HSR line between Tampa and Orlando.  Capital costs are associated with any transportation project.  At $10 million/mile, that's not really that expensive for 61 miles of commuter rail.  If you think its too high, tell the state to go "no frills."  After all, they won't be running commuter rail to the point of where they need a 61-mile double tracked line right a way.

QuoteHence the $1.2 billion cost tag excluding operations and maintenance which is estimated at another $1.2 billion over 30 years, for a whopping total of $2.4 billion.

Lol, you can't be serious.  How much will 30 years of annual O & M costs add to HSR?  My guess is a lot more than $2.4 billion.

If they kill it, forget high speed and commuter rail in the State of Florida! Watch our money go else where (i.e. Charlotte) I wouldn't even be surprised if we lost out on the applications for Amtrak service. What a shame this would all be.

It would be a shame but Florida would deserve everything that it gets.

fsujax and lake.........I have to agree! There appears to be too much wheeling and dealing, not to mention the disparity between all of the figures being bandeed about. Easiest way I see that I see is tell CSX take a hike and fund trackage for just what is need for a no frills operation!

I don't see how CSX is the bad guy.  Its their property.  Either you want it or you don't and if you do, its up to you to negotiate a deal that you are comfortable with.  So the problem should be with those representing the tax payers, not the private entity.

lake you have a point, but as I pointed out..........nothing keeps us from putting in tracks ourselves! Fair Market value is determined by CSX not the negotiators. I do have reservations about them having their own axes to grind and wish this were a case for Federal Mediation. There appears to be too many logs in the fires and no one is stepping back to take an objective look at things!A Monopoly is a monoply and whoever has one will fight to keep it.........that doesn't do the public much good at all!

Quote from: CS Foltz on December 08, 2009, 02:27:49 PM
lake you have a point, but as I pointed out..........nothing keeps us from putting in tracks ourselves!

Primarily costs.  We can't even pass a deal to buy existing track and ROW at 10 million/mile.  No way, we're going to get a plan passed that will cost 10 times as much. 

The biggest lie that Paula Dockery has perpetuated is not the cost of the project, but the terms of liability agreement. She has led everyone to believe that CSX demanded a deal that indemnifies them from all liability, no matter what happens. This is not true.

QuoteFACTS:
CSX is not immune from liability. Rather CSX and FDOT will share liability in the corridor on a no fault basis. FDOT and CSX have maintained a no-fault contractual allocation of liability and up to $125 million in coverage in South Florida on the Tri-Rail system since 1988. FDOT seeks to do the same thing in Central Florida. This is consistent with 23 other commuter rail systems around the country dealing with liability in a shared rail corridor. The Tri-Rail agreement from 1988 and the proposed Central Florida agreement from 2007 provide a contractual allocation of liability, irrespective of fault, as follows:
o If only a CSX freight train is involved in an accident, then CSX pays 100% of injury or damage (except for any passengers or invitees in the corridor)
o If only a Commuter train is involved in an accident, then FDOT pays 100% of injury or damage.
o If both a CSX train and a Commuter train collide, then CSX pays 100% of all freight damage including any people on its trains, FDOT pays for 100% of the commuter train and passenger damage including people within the corridor, and CSX and FDOT each pay 50% of any third party damage resulting outside the corridor.
o FDOT maintains $5 million self insurance retention and $125 million of excess insurance in South Florida, inclusive of punitive damages. The agreements provide for adding Central Florida to the insurance and increasing the coverage to $200 million (nationally, coverage ranges from $200-$500 million for similar transit systems).

SunRail passed Senate

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/politics/orl-bk-senate-passes-sunrail-story-120809,0,3655246.story
(http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/politics/orl-bk-senate-passes-sunrail-story-120809,0,3655246.story)

That's a shocker!

Egads...........both HSR and SunRail in one fell swoop? The Gods have smiled on us right? I am speechless!

no HSR yet CS

Quote from: mvp on December 08, 2009, 05:20:01 PM
SunRail passed Senate

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/politics/orl-bk-senate-passes-sunrail-story-120809,0,3655246.story
(http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/politics/orl-bk-senate-passes-sunrail-story-120809,0,3655246.story)

From that article:

QuoteFollowing an 11th-hour deal with labor unions, the Senate pushed through a rail package – which paves the way for the $1.2 billion SunRail – after just a few hours of debate.

Shortly before the Senate vote, Florida AFL-CIO President Mike Williams issued a statement saying the unions had struck a deal to preserve labor jobs on Tri-Rail and SunRail. That cleared the way for reluctant Senate Democrats to vote for it.

"Our goal of stopping the displacement of federally-qualified railroad workers from Florida's passenger and freight railroads will not be compromised as experienced rail workers will continue to maintain Florida's railways," Williams said.

Not everyone was on board, however. Among the "no" votes was Sen. Nan Rich, D-Weston, who called the bill a bad deal. For the Orlando commuter line, the state is paying CSX $432 million for 61.5 miles of track and shielding the private company from some lawsuits in the event of a train crash.

So you're for it now?

Quote from: thelakelander on December 08, 2009, 09:21:06 PM
So you're for it now?

Hopefully you understand that we could have renegotiated the deal to save tax-payer monies, as the original deal was constructed in a boom economy:

QuoteNot everyone was on board, however. Among the "no" votes was Sen. Nan Rich, D-Weston, who called the bill a bad deal. For the Orlando commuter line, the state is paying CSX $432 million for 61.5 miles of track and shielding the private company from some lawsuits in the event of a train crash.

But they wouldn't give an inch to meet opponents on their concerns.

It took an 11th hour concession on the labor issue to make passage possible, but up until the very end NOTHING gave. It definitely wasn't a good faith effort to address the REAL concerns that the Sunrail deal was far over-priced. As you said it was either a bad deal or no deal.

We now have a bad deal that was ONLY passed because they were real close to losing it AGAIN, so they rolled out the 11th hour concession.

So is it safe to assume you won't be on the first Sunrail train that leaves the station?  Politics played a role in getting it delayed in the past two sessions so them playing a role in getting it passed is not suprising.

Quote from: thelakelander on December 08, 2009, 09:57:43 PM
So is it safe to assume you won't be on the first Sunrail train that leaves the station?  Politics played a role in getting it delayed in the past two sessions so them playing a role in getting it passed is not suprising.

Politics should never be a stale-mate. It definitely was for Sunrail supporters who were never willing to renegotiate the bad deal.

Of course I would like to be on the first Sunrail train that leaves the station. First however I will be riding the trains in Europe in a few days from now.

It (politics) should not be.  They also shouldn't be a higher priority than the actual needs of the general public, but they typically are.  Have fun in Europe and get some good pics.

Sunrail, however it gets on the ground is going to carry more passengers daily then Ratrail ever will, unless they make changes:

1. Get it off exclusive right-of-way as it enters Orlando and Tampa

2. Get it into the regular Amtrak Station in Tampa, and the Lynx Station in Orlando

3. Move the route to pass THROUGH the Cities, not around them

4. Forget MCO or TPA, both should be tied to Ratrail via LRT

Those things done, it would have a real chance to carry passengers in record numbers. I'm just glad they finally got off their wallets for RAIL just on general principles. Now let's completely cut all FDOT associations with CUTR at USF and this state would start looking green again.


OCKLAWAHA

It has to go back to the House now with the changes that won't sit well with the republicans.

Ock....the chances of the HSR route changing dramatically at this point are very slim...and for the final time, it goes into downtown Tampa (not what I would call around the city) and it doesn't go to TPA!

It does go to OIA does it now?

yes CS it goes to MCO...but Ock mentioned both MCO and TPA

Quote from: tufsu1 on December 09, 2009, 09:14:41 AM
Ock....the chances of the HSR route changing dramatically at this point are very slim...and for the final time, it goes into downtown Tampa (not what I would call around the city) and it doesn't go to TPA!

FLORIDA'S HIGH SPEED RAIL ADVENTURE
http://www.youtube.com/v/coUsbKWR3sk&hl=en_US&fs=1&color1=0x402061&color2=0x9461ca&border=1

I didn't say it did go to TPA, merely that they should FORGET ever building it to TPA and MCO, be satisfied to connect them to Ratrail with Streetcar and Light Rail. Also the route DOES go around the west and/or south side of Orlando, and it goes around every other town until it hits the Tampa City Limits, at some points being nearly 5-10 miles from the intermediate towns. The placement of the Stations AND the maintenance facilities, is at the corner of Nowhere and Stupid.

If we are giving away Jaguar tickets for the final games, then FDOT better plan on giving them away on this "super train" IF it's ever built. As it is now routed, if I would have stayed in Heathrow, FL. it would be easier for me to DRIVE to Tampa, and a damn sight cheaper. We can hope and pray that the USDOT, FTA, FRA and every other agency decide that this is a no go, in a non rail state. The apologists for High Speed Rail sound more like JTA just before the Skyway was built, by the day, it would be funny if it wasn't so pathetic.

TUFSU1 these boys remind me of Lakelander, Lunican, you and myself trying to operate a "Ballet Company." Maybe CUTR is at the bottom of all of the wild claims and plans, if they are, they'll go down in flames along with Ratrail. In fact this plan is so bad, I might be temped to join them in promoting an alternate "High Speed BRT!" If there was ever a case of "Just like rail only cheaper..." this is it.

OCKLAWAHA