PHILADELPHIA (AP) -- The U.S. Navy plans to give away the retired aircraft carrier USS John F. Kennedy for a museum or memorial.
The ship is currently in docked in Philadelphia with other retired warships.
The Navy says the deadline for submitting initial applications is Jan. 22. Bidders have to be a government or nonprofit group that pledges to use the ship as a museum or memorial. The winner gets the ship for free, but will be responsible for moving the 1,050-foot vessel from Philadelphia to its new home.
Known as "Big John," the ship was the last conventionally powered aircraft carrier built by the Navy. It once carried a crew of about 4,600 and 70 combat aircraft. It entered Navy service in September 1968 and was decommissioned in 2007.
http://www.firstcoastnews.com/news/topstories/news-article.aspx?storyid=148694&catid=3
Why not here?
yeah, why not?
Quote from: Steve on November 25, 2009, 01:09:38 PM
Why not here?
Yeah, we could tie it up at the Landing! Or uh Potsburg Creek! ::) ;)
OCKLAWAHA
Would it fit at the Shipyards downtown? That land is going to be empty for a while.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/453492897_t9xqA-M.jpg)
Looking at that photo, a couple of the piers there seem long enough, but the question is, do those piers harbor the extra stuff and facilities needed to support a floating museum the size of the Kennedy, and is the St. John's deep enough to harbor "Big John." Would probably have to renovate and upgrade the pier or piers to support the Kennedy berthing there as a museum.
Lot of questions need to be answered before anyone in Jax attemps to accept the Kennedy and then move it and maintain it as a museum. Would need a LOT of questions answered relative to towing, depth of the St. Johns, maintenance, etc. before even moving it.
Would love to see it at the Shipyards park; it is fitting for a retired Navy carrier ship to be berthed at the Shipyards, and downtown (along with the City of Jacksonville) would receive a significant boost in tourism and other business venues around the museum. If anyone think I am joking, look at the economic impact the USS MIDWAY has had on downtown San Diego. Go to http://www.midway.org
Heights Unknown
It probably could, but would it fit under the bridges? My guess is no.
The below photo says it all:
http://www.midway.org/files/imagecache/display/photos/Downtown%20Location.jpg
Can you imagine "Big John" in downtown Jax?
Heights Unknown
Looks like Boston wants it. Even if Jacksonville had a clue/inclination to go after it, it would be very hard to beat Boston out for it.
http://www.boston.com/news/local/breaking_news/2009/11/city_councilor_1.html
Yeah with the "Kennedy Stigma" (Irish) out of Boston and Massachusetts it's pretty hard to compete with that yes, I do agree.
Heights Unknown
Quote from: heights unknown on November 25, 2009, 08:30:23 PM
Yeah with the "Kennedy Stigma" (Irish) out of Boston and Massachusetts it's pretty hard to compete with that yes, I do agree.
Heights Unknown
Well brother, if Kennedy and his antics give Boston some advantage, just think of our own City Hall, no sweat guys, for certain we'll get the George Bush when it's retired.
Ooooh!OCKLAWAHA
Just did the measurements on the Jacksonville GIS map, ha ha! Like I suspected a 1,200 foot carrier would stretch from the Shipyards Seawall, more then 2/3 of the way across the River toward the School Board, fouling the entire channel. Same story at the old Ford Assembly Plant just Northwest of the Matthews Bridge. Oh and the smart crack about tying it up at the Landing? It would stretch from Main Street to the gazebo dock at Coast Line Drive, and STILL come close to blocking the channel. The longest of the piers at the Shipyards site is 700', meaning we could maybe squeeze an Essex Class Ship in the berth with just a few feet jutting into the river. Trouble is, even though the Essex Class was long based here with the Rosy (Roosevelt), the last of them were stricken in the early 1990's, having been built in WWII, longest service record in the Navy, and among VERY FEW ships that made the leap from bunker oil fired steam days, to the Nuclear Navy's steam systems. But as usual, these ships, Atlantic and Mediterranean Fleet staples, saw the last survivor, USS Midway, go to San Diego as a museum. The Roosevelt and sister Coral Sea were "Sold to Gillette..."
OCKLAWAHA
There is an effort to get an Adams class destroyer [?] here. Thanks for doing the measurements, I was wondering about that. What if the JFK tied up at The Shipyards, parallel to the shoreline, not perpendicular, as you measured?
Put the ship at the base of the Matthews Bridge next to the Ford plan, use the Ford plant as the MOSH and then demo MOSH as part of the new fountain plans for more open space. Its all very simple, why do I have to think for everyone in City Hall?????
Quote from: Charles Hunter on November 25, 2009, 11:31:48 PM
There is an effort to get an Adams class destroyer [?] here. Thanks for doing the measurements, I was wondering about that. What if the JFK tied up at The Shipyards, parallel to the shoreline, not perpendicular, as you measured?
Amazing Charles, the Adams Class is 437' x 36' and would fit very well at:
Between Coast Line Drive and the foot of Hogan Street, in front of the TUCPA moored parallel.
Between the Acosta and the Boat Ramps, Friendship Park area, moored perpendicular.
Between any two piers along the Shipyards Site, moored perpendicular.
Alongside the old Ford Plant at almost the exact length of the pier, a "custom fit," perhaps saving two treasures in one swoop. If we want to take it up to 4 treasures, lets get MOSH, Maritime Museum at the old plant too. If you have never been inside it's similar to the superdome just not as tall, restored that building could house even more stuff... rail museum, 747, graf zeppelin. Quote from: mtraininjax on November 25, 2009, 11:58:21 PM
Put the ship at the base of the Matthews Bridge next to the Ford plan, use the Ford plant as the MOSH and then demo MOSH as part of the new fountain plans for more open space. Its all very simple, why do I have to think for everyone in City Hall?????
Mtrain, while I share your feelings on the tiny impotent MOSH (I wish it were expanded about 5 times), carrier would not fit ANYWHERE along the riverfront. Like the Super Tankers that used the river off Talleyrand and JU during the Fuel Crisis of the 1970's, anchorage would have to be parallel to the shore, just east of the channel. OCKLAWAHA
Ock - it can be done, it just takes some imagination. It can be done, if the city wants it to be done. No where else for it to go here in Jax, but there.
Quote from: mtraininjax on November 26, 2009, 12:24:03 AM
Ock - it can be done, it just takes some imagination. It can be done, if the city wants it to be done. No where else for it to go here in Jax, but there.
Kind of moot anyway my friend, none of them will clear JEA and the Broward Bridge! Can you spell TNT or K4? These landlubber F@#K up's in our city will keep us as the unfinished furniture and waffle house capital of the world. Hell I'm going to go uncork a carton of Titanic Beer, remember with Titanic, it always goes down fast, stays ice cold. I'm done now...
"Tattoo, tattoo lights out in five minutes."OCKLAWAHA
I think if it's going to go anywhere, it'll probably be mayport.
Makes sense, right?
I seem to remember when they were talking about doing this with the Saratoga they said they would have to lop the superstructure off above the flight deck to get it downtown and then put it back.
I dont remember....... why did the Saratoga bid flop?
Quotewhy did the Saratoga bid flop?
$$$$
I really think we need to crawl before we walk - Let's get the Charles F Adams here first:
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php?topic=6598.0
Reading this morning's article in the TU, it would appear that there are other options as well:
Quotefive aircraft carriers - Forrestal, Saratoga, Ranger, Independence and Constellation - are hanging around awaiting new owners.
http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2009-11-26/story/christmas_gift_idea_maybe_the_uss_john_f_kennedy
Quote from: Dan B on November 25, 2009, 06:17:53 PM
Looks like Boston wants it. Even if Jacksonville had a clue/inclination to go after it, it would be very hard to beat Boston out for it.
http://www.boston.com/news/local/breaking_news/2009/11/city_councilor_1.html
IMO, the right spot for the USS John F Kennedy would be in Boston Harbor.
This topic has been brought up before....
Here are some images I threw together a while back. This carrier is to scale.
At the shipyards... if ever built....
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/asonj23/Google%20Earth%20Snapshots/Carrier-Shipyards.jpg)
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/asonj23/Google%20Earth%20Snapshots/Carrier-Shipyards2.jpg)
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/asonj23/Google%20Earth%20Snapshots/Carrier-Shipyards3.jpg)
At the old Ford factory at Tallyrand....
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/asonj23/Google%20Earth%20Snapshots/Carrier-OldFordFactory1.jpg)
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/asonj23/Google%20Earth%20Snapshots/Carrier-OldFordFactory2.jpg)
At Friendship park....(Note that this is impossible. No way to get it pass the Main St. Bridge)
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/asonj23/Google%20Earth%20Snapshots/Carrier-FriendshipFountain3.jpg)
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/asonj23/Google%20Earth%20Snapshots/Carrier-FriendshipFountain2.jpg)(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/asonj23/Google%20Earth%20Snapshots/Carrier-FriendshipFountain4.jpg)
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/asonj23/Google%20Earth%20Snapshots/Carrier-FriendshipFountain1.jpg)
A carrier is WAY to big for downtown unless its at the old Ford factory. IMO, we need a destroyer or something similar at the Friendship site or along the docks by the Courthouse.
.....Man, i really wish Riverwatch was built. That is the one building that would have set the skyline on fire, IMO.
Before we all succomb to sending the JFK to the razor blade mill, look at these stats:
Length, overall: 1,050 feet (320 meters)
Flight Deck Width: 267 feet (81.4 meters)
Beam: 128 feet (39.2 meters)
Draft: 36,7 feet (11.2 meters)
Hart bridge info:
141 feet clearance to river
Matthews bridge info:
152 feet clearance to river
Dames Point bridge info:
160 feet clearance to river
So the width of the JFK must be the issue to clear the bridges, I suppose.
You don't have a stat for height "above the water line", or "keel to top" - both significant numbers when discussing bridge heights. Although I am not a sailor, but I am pretty sure that "draft" is the distance below the water, from the water line to the keel. For that, I think we have enough river depth, at least as far as the Hart - not sure about upriver from there.
According to wikipedia, the height from the water line to the top of the mast is 192 feet. Or 17' more than Dames Point, and 51' more than Hart. From some have said, some of that height can be removed for such purposes.
Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_John_F._Kennedy_%28CV-67%29 strangely, the more official sites did not have this detail.
All that said, I'm still concerned about the scenic impact a 1,050 foot long, and nearly 20 stories tall, presence would have downtown. Where's our resident building modeler? Maybe a rendering of it tied up along the Shipyards or JEA site - parallel to the shore, as it appears to be longer than the river is able to handle downtown.
This Shipyards images are above, just not parallel. For a good idea of how big this thing really is, picture the approximately 3 1/2 blocks the new courthouse takes up... or stand it on end and see it soar over the BofA tower.
IMO, there is no place downtown except the old Ford factory that this thing would fit. That's assuming you can get it under the Dames Point.
IMO the ford plant would make an excellent sight for the Kennedy. There would be room for several smaller ships as well as aircraft in and around the plant and a portion of the plant could hold a museum to American manufacturing. Imagine a display of several model T's being assembled
What about somewhere near Jaxport? The BIG ships can already get there, so maybe there's a place they could anchor it that wouldn't obscure commerce and anchor just far enough away that visitors to the ship wouldn't pose a security risk to Jaxport operations. (I'm not an Old Salt, obviously - I have a sinking feeling : ) the Kennedy is light years larger than any container ship that can access Jaxport.) ?
The Kennedy is
Length, overall 1052 feet
Flight Deck Width 252 feet
Beam 130 feet
height, 192 feet
draft, 37 feet
Thus it will NOT fit under the Broward/Dames Point Bridge on 9A/295E and no other bridge is even close to the correct clearance:
Bridge Type Clearance Miles
Dames Point Fixed 169' 5.7
Matthews Fixed 152' 16.1
Hart Fixed 135' 17.3
Main Street Lift 40' 18.4 Closed to Boat Traffic 7-9am & 4-6pm except Sundays & Holidays
Acosta Fixed 75' 19.6
FL East Coast RR Lift 5' 19.6
Fuller-Warren (I-95) Fixed 65' 19.6
Buckman (I-295) Fixed 65' 28.8
Shands Fixed 45' 46.0
Also looking at Jason's excellent work, I think the measurements are right on. A Kennedy type ship moored right up next to the wall at the Shipyards site, would extend the length of the longest pier plus 1/3 more, reaching the channel. At the Acosta South Bank site it actually goes about 2/3Rd's of the way across the river, blocking the channel.
The river is from 8' to 42' deep on the east side of the Acosta Bridge, from 5' to 37' to 61' at the Shipyards pier, so either location would take tons of dredging. Off the east end of the old Ford plant the water is only 22' but it's only a few feet from the channel at 33' feet, on the northside of the location the water is from 4' to 10' deep. The Trout River is very shallow ranging from 1' foot to 11' at it's deepest! So even if we could get under the bridge it would be expensive to make a hole deep enough to go in the northside. The Broward River is shallower where the channel meets the river then it is at the Hecksher Drive Bridge, which is a whopping 11' feet. Dunn's Creek is worse. The area on the north shore of Bartram Island (which is 30' feet high) is very close to the channel and frankly would make a great spot to expand the port in the future if an exit/entrance off the Broward could be engineered on the low, south end of the bridge.
THERE IS A SPOT, In the Blount Island East Channel, just east of the railroad which crosses over Hecksher Drive and then over the channel itself. East of the railroad bridge and tucked hard against the Hecksher side, moored parallel to the shore, the channel is 40' deep and both the bridge and JEA are west of the location. More properly between San Carlos and Browns Creek, in the St. Johns East Channel, east of the railroad bridge.
OCKLAWAHA
The Midway Class Ships, Midway, Roosevelt and Coral Sea, were a little shy of 1,000 feet long by 230 feet wide, so they would still be too long and would jut into the middle of the St. John's channel downtown; so even if they were still around (Midway is but she is a museum in San Diego), they still would be too big, and likewise for the Essex Class (868 x 210 feet).
A small destroyer, frigate or cruiser would be the answer for Jax, Ock hit everything right on the head.
"HU"
Thanks Heights, you and I are on the same deck with this one... Squid to Squid, it would be most cool if Jason could set that model in that east chanel, north of the Island, and just south of Hecksher. Maybe then we could get a realistic view. Any farther east past Brown's Creek, and it would sit in front of some high dollar housing. Of course if the Devil Dogs let one slip, those homes will no longer be a problem, call it "urban renewal".
OCKLAWAHA
"Son of a Son of a Sailor..."
You may want to ask the USMC if they want a tourist attraction overlooking their materiel port on the east half of Blount Island. And looking at Google Maps, the only linear spot long enough on the NE side of the island is opposite some of what I expect are "high end" houses on Heckscher. Looks like each one has a private dock. How wide is Back Channel there? It doesn't look like there is enough room at the "point" at the north end of the island, west of Brown's Creek to avoid those homes. The Navy property extends to just a couple hundred feet from the eastern-most bridge to the mainland.
Charles, your not quite far enough up the channel, keep going to you hit the bridge, then count back east. Nested up to the Blount Island Blvd Bridge, and running back to the corner of the first group of 5+ lots is 1,166 feet. A bulkhead would have to be created on the North side of the East Channel, and some dredging would be needed to push the ship up next to the bulkhead. As for homes, no large homes in this stretch, perhaps none at all. Looks from the air like some fishing docks near corner of Blount Island and Hecksher Drive, with some small shanty's of some sort. To the East, none of the lots has been developed within this space. There are a few, which could offer a small museum, gate, and parking lot.
OCKLAWAHA
OK - between the Brown's Creek Fish Camp and the bridge? I missed where you said on the north (mainland) side of the river, not against the island.
Still, I'd wager the Marines might have some concerns with a 20 story 'structure' looming above their port that ships supplies to the military around the world.
Quote from: danno on November 26, 2009, 08:49:41 AM
I dont remember....... why did the Saratoga bid flop?
For the same reason the Kennedy will: Money for maintenance. This is an even bigger obstacle than locating a berth.
The Feds will require proof of the ability to sustain maintenance on the ship. Can you imagine the continuing costs just to paint the darn thing every few years? Millions, I am sure. As I recall, fail to maintain it to standards, and the Feds reclaim the ship.
My guess is it would take a minimum of $15 to $30 million to move the ship in place, prepare a berth for it (build a pier, support utilities and services, land-side buildings and access, etc.), and to put the ship in any any kind of shape to proudly and honorably put it on display. And, then from day one, it will cost a few million more every few years to keep it in shape. I didn't count the cost of land acquisition for parking, access, and the pier/infrastructure.
The Saratoga group never came close, and those were much better times economically. It's like the $ky-high-way, just because the Feds offer it for free, doesn't mean we can afford to take it on.
"Beware of Feds bearing free gifts."
P.S. The FAA also has something to say about 20 story tall structures in the middle of nowhere. And, if it is in sight of the Timucuan preserve, so will the NPS/Dept. of Interior. Remember this issue with the cruise terminal? And, there will need to be environmental studies, Water Management District, Corps of Engineers, etc., etc. Good luck passing all those tests.
My biggest worry over a carrier is we would have a 1,000 foot long 200' high "SAIL" to deal with in the very first tropical storm. Without the ability to get out to sea, that ship might end up in the marshes around Yulee. Just do the math, surface area x 140 mph winds x 20 foot storm surge... Sorry guys, unless the Navy came in and took her in tow a week before, she'd be history!
Anyone know what Mobile did with the USS Alabama during Katrina? Did they even have a plan? What about Jacksonville, NC and the USS North Carolina?
OCKLAWAHA
Doesn't Charleston have a carrier or at least a battleship? Where was it when Hugo struck?
From Friday's Jax Daily Record
City Notes
02/12/2010
• Talk of bringing the decommissioned USS Adams to Downtown and converting it into a naval museum and attraction is still out there. Now, the Navy has weighed in. According to Patricia Dolan, director of the office of corporate communications, it could cost in excess of $10 million to bring the ship to town.
http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/citynotes.php?id=530257
Quote from: subro on February 15, 2010, 10:53:31 AM
• Talk of bringing the decommissioned USS Adams to Downtown and converting it into a naval museum and attraction is still out there. Now, the Navy has weighed in. According to Patricia Dolan, director of the office of corporate communications, it could cost in excess of $10 million to bring the ship to town.
http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/citynotes.php?id=530257
$10 million for this? Imagine the costs for an aircraft carrier. With all the critical needs in the community and the economy at present I don't see how anyone pulls this off.
The Alabama took hit's in Katrina, but believe it or not was used as a hurricane shelter! QuoteThe USS Alabama Memorial Park is not just the great ship, but a wonderful collection of many, many historical military artifacts, including the submarine USS Drum, nearly 25 aircraft (INCLUDING that Beautiful Beasty Aerospace War Machine known as the F-14 Tomcat!) and a bunch of other draws.
The problem is…when Hurricane Katrina swung through a couple of years ago, much damage was caused to the entire complex. The ship ended up with a 4+ degree list, radar systems on the ship were destroyed â€" all told an estimated $2.6 mil is needed to get the old girl back in fighting/display shape.
Many aircraft and buildings in the complex were damaged or destroyed.
OCKLAWAHA
I hope the carrier did not end up getting scrapped ... Do wish we had something like this as a museum destination in Jax.