I just saw this on urbanjacksonville http://www.urbanjacksonville.info/2009/11/18/hogans-creek-master-plan-for-springfield-draft-released/ (http://www.urbanjacksonville.info/2009/11/18/hogans-creek-master-plan-for-springfield-draft-released/).
Looks like this is the new concept idea for the Hogan's Creek park system, there are some pdf's that show a better image of each part of the park.
This is scheduled as tomorrows article. Stay tuned.
QuoteThe McPhearson & Schell Park Concept shows a skate park, creek expansions, a play ground and a fountain
This would be AWESOME! I might turn back the clock 5 years and take skateboarding back up if this park gets built.
Looks like a great plan. I hope it gains traction and a rehab project finally gets funding.
The only thing I don't like is that it looks like they would relocate the dog park
The story says that completion is set for Jan 2010? I assume that finalizeation of the plan itself, not construction. It was mentioned at the meeting that it would take a couple years just to secure full funding.
Also, this is just a preliminary/rough draft.
They made it very clear that nothing was set in stone in the least, and this was thier very first (of mulitple) versions.
Is that the Skyway we see in those drawings? Funny how dead projects keep coming to the surface. If the city was to build this out completely wouldn't it be a FIRST? Have we EVER built out a plan?
OCKLAWAHA
I don't see any skyway stuff in those drawings. Did I miss them?
Anyway, if this new streetcar plan actually gets off the ground and connects to Springfield, that'll put an extra nail in the coffin of the idea of ever expanding the Skyway northward. So I wouldn't exactly worry about that.
It will probably go the other way Joe the more you have the more you want.
It's not the Skyway, but appears to be both an aquaduct underground, on the same right of way planned for the Skyway. BTW, if streetcars go up Main to 8Th to Shands, and a someday Skyway runs from the "S" line above Shands directly South through the West and Southern bounds of the park, they would serve a completely different market.
http://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0B4_UQrTv8syNYTQwYTkxYTAtMDNiOC00ZDA5LWE5NWItZmEyODEzYzI2YzM3&hl=en
Check out the upper left of this print, double blue lines. I hadn't noticed that they ended at the water works.
OCKLAWAHA
Yes, if you are interested in this, you'll definitely want to check this out tomorrow.
Quote from: hanjin1 on November 19, 2009, 10:27:20 AM
The only thing I don't like is that it looks like they would relocate the dog park
Some updates about this in the comments section. I look forward to this being brought back to the community again when they have finalized a plan.
Quote from: hanjin1 on November 19, 2009, 10:27:20 AM
The only thing I don't like is that it looks like they would relocate the dog park
me too
The question in Jacksonville is not "If you build it they will come" it is "WILL you build it!"
OCKLAWAHA
Got to do what Imeson did for Mr Klutho's beautiful design, kept the water out
While I can acknowledge that I am not completely enamoured with the whole plan, calling it dangerous is a bit over the top.
we haven't even really seen the whole plan yet have we? I have only seen sketches. Keep the balustrades!
Quote from: Dan B on November 19, 2009, 04:07:50 PM
While I can acknowledge that I am not completely enamoured with the whole plan, calling it dangerous is a bit over the top.
Quote from: stephendare on November 19, 2009, 04:12:28 PM
really?
I guess then that you know the basis of my opinion then. Why dont you point out whats wrong with my reasoning? Im quite interested to know.
Dan should read up on the philosophical paradox of the Ship of Theseus...
How many important historic structures (including Klutho's balustrades) can you demolish or remove, before you get to the stage where you've torn apart the fabric of what made it special in the first place?
With so many vacant lots and decay already, how much more are you willing to lose?
Stephen,
At the meeting, well attended, where the plan was unveiled the consensus was very positive. A few details here or there to pick over, but all in all very positive.
Noone mentioned "out of the question" or "dangerous".
Where were you at the various public meetings when public input was gathered, or when the rough draft was first unveiled to the community?
Wish you could have found the time to attend any of them. Obviously you have some strong feelings about it.
How could anyone POSSIBLY want to remove the balustrades? What is the reasoning behind that?
The presenters touched on that in the meeting. Continuity and cost were given as reasons why they want to have new period-authentic balustrades. They said that the current balustrades were in various states of disrepair, for the most part, and it would be easier simply to replace them all instead of picking and choosing which segments would be worth rehabbing and would last a long time. More than one person didn't like the sound of that and wanted some additional thought put into using at least some of the original balustrades for the project.
If they are "period-authentic" wouldn't that mean just replacing the missing ones? That's what you do when you are restoring a home.
Did they say what material the new ones would be made of? Will they be the same design? Period authentic could mean anything...
Quote from: fsu813 on November 19, 2009, 07:04:08 PM
The presenters touched on that in the meeting. Continuity and cost were given as reasons why they want to have new period-authentic balustrades. They said that the current balustrades were in various states of disrepair, for the most part, and it would be easier simply to replace them all instead of picking and choosing which segments would be worth rehabbing and would last a long time. More than one person didn't like the sound of that and wanted some additional thought put into using at least some of the original balustrades for the project.
^Of course its easy to replace history than finding a way to preserve it. Sounds a lot like Genrty in the Ambassador Hotel thread. Anyway, I may be off track, but the balustrades are the one significant iconic architectural element the parks have that set them apart from any other public space in the Southeast. It may not be feasible to save the entire thing (half of it is already gone), but its a bad move to not attempt to preserve any of it.
Quote from: thelakelander on November 19, 2009, 07:13:07 PM
Quote from: fsu813 on November 19, 2009, 07:04:08 PM
The presenters touched on that in the meeting. Continuity and cost were given as reasons why they want to have new period-authentic balustrades. They said that the current balustrades were in various states of disrepair, for the most part, and it would be easier simply to replace them all instead of picking and choosing which segments would be worth rehabbing and would last a long time. More than one person didn't like the sound of that and wanted some additional thought put into using at least some of the original balustrades for the project.
^Of course its easy to replace history than finding a way to preserve it. Sounds a lot like Genrty in the Ambassador Hotel thread. Anyway, I may be off track, but the balustrades are the one significant iconic architectural element the parks have that set them apart from any other public space in the Southeast. It may not be feasible to save the entire thing (half of it is already gone), but its a bad move to not attempt to preserve any of it.
+1,000,000
Everybody should read up on "Ship of Theseus" and go from there. I can't believe anyone is even suggesting this.
Klutho was a Frank Lloyd Wright student for chrissakes. He's the only nationally significant architect we have locally. I can't believe ANYONE is considering tearing down ANYTHING he designed. It's ridiculous.
Quote from: fsu813 on November 19, 2009, 07:04:08 PM
The presenters touched on that in the meeting. Continuity and cost were given as reasons why they want to have new period-authentic balustrades. They said that the current balustrades were in various states of disrepair, for the most part, and it would be easier simply to replace them all instead of picking and choosing which segments would be worth rehabbing and would last a long time. More than one person didn't like the sound of that and wanted some additional thought put into using at least some of the original balustrades for the project.
I believe Joel Mecechen told me that the cast for the original balustrade is still around. I dont remember if he said it was in the company's possession, or the city's.
I could be mistaken, but I think I remember hearing that.
Choosing preservation over replacement would be a decision that was incread the cost exponentially, however, its one that should sincerely be looked at. Even if its a matter of pulling whats there out, and repairing/redoing the creek banks, and putting them back into place with matching replacements for the parts missing, I think its worth looking at.
I would also love to see the lighting restored to the bridges and rails.
I know these are small ideas, but I hope that are in line with the over all vision.
Dan, I agree.
We could use an old one and make a cast for that matter if the original can't be found.
Quote from: Dan B on November 19, 2009, 07:50:08 PM
Quote from: fsu813 on November 19, 2009, 07:04:08 PM
The presenters touched on that in the meeting. Continuity and cost were given as reasons why they want to have new period-authentic balustrades. They said that the current balustrades were in various states of disrepair, for the most part, and it would be easier simply to replace them all instead of picking and choosing which segments would be worth rehabbing and would last a long time. More than one person didn't like the sound of that and wanted some additional thought put into using at least some of the original balustrades for the project.
I believe Joel Mecechen told me that the cast for the original balustrade is still around. I dont remember if he said it was in the company's possession, or the city's.
I could be mistaken, but I think I remember hearing that.
Choosing preservation over replacement would be a decision that was incread the cost exponentially, however, its one that should sincerely be looked at. Even if its a matter of pulling whats there out, and repairing/redoing the creek banks, and putting them back into place with matching replacements for the parts missing, I think its worth looking at.
I would also love to see the lighting restored to the bridges and rails.
I know these are small ideas, but I hope that are in line with the over all vision.
Holy hell.
<earth stops spinning> <hell freezes over> <pigs are flying by outside my window>
Dan B, we actually agree 110%.
I can't believe anyone would even suggest a plan that didn't include restoring the ORIGINAL balustrades, as well as the ORIGINAL bridges, and lighting. WTF is the point of having anything historic in the first place, if you can just replace it at will with something cheaper when it's easier or more convenient?
I'm seriously disappointed in this proposed plan.
I think saving all the balustrades that are in decent condition and concentrating them in one segment would be ideal. No continuity issues then and i'd guess the city would be ok withthe understanding that we won't bitch and they won't fix them when they start to fall apart in another ___ years.
Quote from: fsu813 on November 19, 2009, 08:06:59 PM
I think saving all the balustrades that are in decent condition and concentrating them in one segment would be ideal. No continuity issues then and i'd guess the city would be ok withthe understanding that we won't bitch and they won't fix them when they start to fall apart in another ___ years.
All the historic houses are wood and require extra maintenance because of it, too. So you gonna raze the whole place, and replace them with stucco'd el-cheapo versions because maintenance is cheaper? That argument holds zero water.
They should fix them whenever they need fixing. Actually, they shouldn't even need fixing in the first place, because at some stage over the last 100 years someone should have done some maintenance on the damned things. Instead it's just become hobo-central while COJ entirely forgot it even existed.
Someone should go to Savannah and 'enlighten' them about how much money they'd save if they quit maintaining that stupid fountain...
whatever the old ones are replaced with... the new ones won't last 1/10th of the time the old ones did.
Quote from: sheclown on November 19, 2009, 08:58:00 PM
whatever the old ones are replaced with... the new ones won't last 1/10th of the time the old ones did.
what if they used the same materials?
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on November 19, 2009, 08:22:19 PM
All the historic houses are wood and require extra maintenance because of it, too. So you gonna raze the whole place, and replace them with stucco'd el-cheapo versions because maintenance is cheaper? That argument holds zero water.
They should fix them whenever they need fixing. Actually, they shouldn't even need fixing in the first place, because at some stage over the last 100 years someone should have done some maintenance on the damned things. Instead it's just become hobo-central while COJ entirely forgot it even existed.
Someone should go to Savannah and 'enlighten' them about how much money they'd save if they quit maintaining that stupid fountain...
- No, Chris. You are mistaken about what the argument is. If the city owned all the houses in Springfield, yes, they probably would rebuild them, once they fell, with longer-lasting materials. Less maintaince = less money & less liability. They city doesn't own all the houses though. Try again.
- Yes, they should have been maintained better. Many things should have been done better. thanks for noticing. The city wants cost-effective. Moving and rehabbing the old ones isn't as cost-effective. If it was, i'm sure they go that route. I'm not sure how much leeway there is in the budget, neither do you, so we can't say what the city should do. I'd like them to consolidate & fix the old ones as well, but we don't know if it's financially doable.
- if the fountain was half-way fallen apart i'm sure they would listen and think about it.
Unless you did what Imeson did that kept the river and the tides out, no plan will work - and if this is not done and walls and ballustrades are removed, then "nature will out" you will be back to a swamp with 100 year old garbage floating in the river. The plans do not allow for the 15 to 20 acre lake we have during heavy rain and high tide. You can tell when the tide is in by the water in Market Street. The swamp underneath the park is tidal. I have said this at every meeting at which I have been present. Again, they dredged and bulkheaded the creek in 1906, it lasted about 3 years, and that is when the Woman's Club started campaigning to get the problem fixed once and forever. The forever lasted until there was gross neglect by the city and the flood gates at the river were removed. If you walk the creek you can see where more and more walls are in trouble. Also note there are no trees along the creek per se, the tree line is about 100 yards away, the land will not hold trees, even now we see them topple during floods near the ball park. We know the oceans are rising, if Italy can build huge locks to keep the water out of St. Marks Square in Venice(it was getting to be 14 inches in high tides)
and Holland can build even more gigantic ones to keep the North sea from taking back land, couldn't we get one little lock to stop the incoming water, then talk about spending millions on the park. The river groups and people are against this, so I do not think it will happen, it is sad that the wet lands and swamp are mid-town and so collect garbage, carts and maybe bodies, they could be left natural like the inlets on the way to Fernandina, but then the parks would be lost. The powers that be have to decide that they will keep spending in the years to come or let it all go au naturel, sorry I am in a bad mood tonight. Also any removal probably would need consent of the Historic people, and Klutho considered the Venetian Waterway, his greatest achievement.
Your concerns were specifically addressed at the meeting when you raised them.
- a new lock system is not in the budget and much more complicated
- the design does account for the 20 acre lake. the creek would be expanded in various areas, nodes along the creek would be formed to essentially store water, and a buffer area would be formed to allow the creek to expand. Thus there will be no central lake, but the creek would hold more volume throughout it's path
- obviously i disgaree with you in saying that NO plan will work unless the tides are kept out. while i would prefer a lock system as well, that's not going to happen. the expanded volume of the creek should alleviate overflow, though not oversaturation per say. it'll be interesting to find out more details at the next meeting.
Missing from this group of images is the one of the restored pond at Pearl and 4th (where the curved balustrade sits in the middle of the grass). Preservation of the balustrades is a priority, but will depend entirely on the condition of them as they currently exist. Locks and pumps are not ruled out at this point. All connectivity issues -- to Downtown, transit locations, and surrounding institutions, commercial corridors and residential areas -- as well as input given at multiple community and stakeholder interviews and meetings, are being considered.
wow. i wonder what the cost of a new lock/pump system would be?
we've seen a version without a lock/pump system, wonder what would have to be excluded with the added costs....and what the expected effectiveness would be
Lake, could we get a re-post of the original wooden spillways that were posted on MJ before?
I don't recall what thread they were in, but I think seeing them would help a lot to remind everyone of how simple, inexpensive, and long-lasting the originals were. This thing doesn't have to be the Hoover Dam, we just need a simple flood-control device. It doesn't have to be complicated or expensive.
they are currently "re-doing" the Health Department, with construction going full force. what is the likelyhood that they would put all of that money into a building to turn around and tear it down?
hmmmm........maybe they are stripping it? (hopefully)
not sure. there are construction dumpsters and it looks pretty "neked" inside. i will try and pay better attention to see. or, maybe, i'll just go ask one of the workers.
Quote
Yes, they should have been maintained better. Many things should have been done better. thanks for noticing. The city wants cost-effective. Moving and rehabbing the old ones isn't as cost-effective Unquote
Actually it is, Mack Bissette became a disciple and put an article on the SPAR forum on just this subject. It is not just the cost of the materials but the depletion of materials and resources , that counts. In a green world the ultimate cost of restoring an old building is much better than throwing it away and building anew. When I see Mack I will ask him for the article, but Sprinfield Girl maybe you have it, it was a great piece
It is like people think that getting rid of old single glass windows and replacing them with double glazing, the president of HPC talked about this at an awards ceremony, yes you will save money but it will take in the region of 400 years to do this.
don't shoot the messanger
In the early 90s, Lisa Neary and Melissa Miller wrote and were awarded a ICETEA grant for $250,000 to repair the balustrades. Ed Austen was mayor at the time. Apparently, the money was held in the Women's Club account and earned interest for years because the work couldn't be done due to the environmental issues. Phil says that the interest money was used for street signs and other improvements around the neighborhood.
Is any of the proposed work going to be paid for by this grant? Or was the grant already used for other things?
Honestly FSU I didn't mean to shoot you
s'ok Ms. Farley, i'm bullet proof anyways =)
sheclown,
wow....that would a great resource if it's still avilable...
Hasn't anyone read SPAR Speak about Lisa this week, it is ISTEA Intermodal Surface Transportation Efficiency Act, only applies on projects on a Federal Highway and only the matching funds required by these grants were held in the club accounts. The DOT portion goes directly to the parks and is administrated by them. Nothing can be done on that side of Confederate Park, along the creek, until the contamination problem is solved, so the other benefits were given.
I.E. a circa $250,000 dog park. rose arbor, restoration of statues, trees, lighting, fencing, irrigation.and interest (on matching funds) contribution to the fountain. In all close to 1,000,000 spent on the parks. There were several grants achieved, not all ISTEA, and the club sold 5 lots of land it had to pay the major portion of the fountain. Confederate Park was an unfenced garbage strewn swamp until the first grant was achieved, and this was done before it was decided that the park was contaminated.
This story has been told many times
FSU since being a volunteer in Springfield, and being told no good deed goes unpunished, I have a teflon skin now
That is not so. I saw many of the written suggestions taken at the Karpeles incorporated, one of which was the possible removal of the Health Center which was built on park land. A couple of weeks ago I was invited to walk the creek and parks with Jennifer Holbrooke and Kevin White and talk first hand about what I thought about the area, and water control. I felt it was an enlightening walk for all of us. These plans are not cast in concrete (pun intended) and are evolving, also there are many many problems, like the contamination, to overcome. At least something is moving and attention is once again being drawn to an area, which even today in its shabby dress, is a thing of beauty - "which is a joy for ever".
They are looking at a long hard slog to get anything achieved, it was 3 1/2 years from idea to completion on the fountain, at least they are trying, listening and putting stuff out for all to see. The decision to spend the money was that of the parks and city representative, they thought it worthwile.
Well said Chris.
The people involved are passionate and sincerely want to do whats right. Whats needed is proactive and positive input and interaction, not darts and daggers.
I can. So what are the positives of the plan? If those can be combined with some of the issues discussed on line, we'll have ourselves a pretty good final product.
How about incorporating a museum devoted to North Florida and Jacksonville history, in one of the historic buildings they want to tear down (but not the Park View, obviously)? It could be fully integrated with the park and outdoor spaces, making the place something of a destination. Like a pretty, public, Cummer except historically themed.
They could even put that locomotive that's rusting into the ground over by the Prime Osborn inside on the ground floor, as the ceilings would be high enough. Then Ock would have a reason to go.
Great idea, Chris.
Along the same line as the train engine suggestion, there is actually a 1920s era, no longer operational, water pump inside the Waterworks lab building -- I'd guess it's about 30-40 ft long, and approx 12-15 ft wide.
JEA loosely "offered" the historic pump to anyone who could remove it from their site and promise to maintain it. Obviously, they can't do this without municipal ok, and I understand there is a JEA historian that would want to make sure it was going to be cared for.
PPS even suggested it would make an interesting, sculptural play/kid structure if it could be brought out into the park. COJ seemed very uncomfortable with that idea.
Just mentioning it so anyone that's interested can pursue the issue further. It's a cool, historical piece of equipment, and it'd be a shame to let it sit and degrade to its eventual death...
Good things:
- All the outdoor sports areas in a somewhat concentrated area. Not sure if volleyball would be used much, the rest would do fine.
- water features
- continuity between the parks
- jogging/ bike trail
- clear and prominent signage at the entrances
- effort to stem the flooding problem
- the open gathering spaces of different sizes
- closing road to cars
Bad things:
- perhaps a little too subruban/modern in design
- possible loss of orginal ballustrades (possible)
- moving a dog park that was just built (if the new one is the same size, then i don't have a porblme with it...just seems like a waste
Quote from: stephendare on November 21, 2009, 02:44:04 PM
the introduction of fountains along the path is a good feature.
I dunno lake, if the park were in a suburb It would be just wonderful I suppose, but there isnt anything marvelous that jumps out of it with the exception of the skate park being built into it and some of the wetland plantings--pending the solution to the landfill actions of the 60s. At least it paves the way to bio remediation.
We have a chance to do a really first class municipal park, Id like to see something exquisite happen here.
I disagree. There are several positives in the conceptual plan. Many of which have been discussed online in the suggestion thread you linked to earlier. Here are a few I see.
1. Using Karpeles as an anchor for a public square atmosphere. This a good starting point for an urban public space that can draw people north of State & Union. It also is a good north anchor for possibly extending the Laura Street streetscape project. My only suggestion here would be to pull the block south of 1st into the plan a little more. While we may have no control over what FSCJ does, we can have a strong influence by making sure the public boarder encourages integration from nearby neighbors (FSCJ & Bethel).
Example: Assuming the greenway is still in the works, an example of designing the block south of 1st to better interact with Bethel and FSCJ could be as simple as including direct multi-use path connections to their properties.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Baltimore-MD-2009/P1250937/592127291_djjak-M.jpg)
2. Going natural just north of First Street. For years, people have mentioned the idea of a botanical garden along Hogans Creek. Like you, I am in favor of preserving as much of the balustrade as possible. However, most of this section has already disappeared due to heavy decay. The way the space is drawn out between 1st and 2nd Streets, gives me the impression of a natural planted area surrounded by an urban public space. There is also a connection with the State Health Department buildings in the park space just north 1st. Imo, all that it needs is a major tot lot or something. That would benefit the urban residential community and help pull Bethel into the mix a little more.
Example:A mix of a pedestrian hardscape and natural greenscape, like this area along the Indianapolis Canal Walk, is indicating between 1st and 2nd.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/570693583_TxENs-M.jpg)
Another example could be the inclusion of a interactive kiddle pool. The mayor likes these things. Combine it with a tot lot and you have another "family-friendly" (COJ likes that term, lol) amenity that pulls in more people between DT and Springfield.
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-7816-p1170034.JPG)
3. An interative mix of active and passive uses at Schell Park. There are tons of comments at MJ and at various public meetings over the years about making the space more active. This conceptual plan has that. While I have my doubts that the health department will move anytime soon, assuming I'm wrong (I haven't attended any meetings so I could be), the only thing really needed is an interactive space along 8th, Jefferson and Boulevard. Imo, a well designed BRT transit stop with vending space would be a nice element to have. That would benefit park users, BRT passengers and nearby medical employees.
Example: Public owned vending space and restrooms along the Detroit Riverwalk (since COJ doesn't like private entities operating in public spaces).
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/594998232_DsNbd-M.jpg)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-2319-p1010836.jpg)
Anyway, these are just a few examples of things that have been stated here and from around the community for years, that have been included in the concepts produced so far. Combine elements like these, with better connectivity and historic preservation (ex. I love the water pump concept Zoo just mentioned) and this thing will be highly successful.
Quote from: fsu813 on November 21, 2009, 03:44:40 PM
Bad things:
- perhaps a little too subruban/modern in design
- possible loss of orginal ballustrades (possible)
- moving a dog park that was just built (if the new one is the same size, then i don't have a porblme with it...just seems like a waste
If money is really a concern (that's what has been said about saving the balustrades), then don't move or alter things that are fine right were they are today and have been in the past. These would include:
1. The dog park
2. The tennis courts
3. Klutho Park's baseball field
4. Klutho Park's soccer field/green space
5. Health department. The place sucks but it can be worked around if "moving" funds would be better off being used elsewhere.
6. Making Orange pedestrian only between Ocean & Hubbard (unless the private entity developing a project on the ajacent privately owned block pays for it.).
7. Park View Inn site. Leave in hands of private sector for future development.
I just think they didn't want the added work / complications and thought it wouldn't be a big deal to simpley put new ballustrades there instead. That's the impression I got, but I could be wrong.
Quote from: zoo on November 21, 2009, 03:28:31 PM
Great idea, Chris.
Along the same line as the train engine suggestion, there is actually a 1920s era, no longer operational, water pump inside the Waterworks lab building -- I'd guess it's about 30-40 ft long, and approx 12-15 ft wide.
JEA loosely "offered" the historic pump to anyone who could remove it from their site and promise to maintain it. Obviously, they can't do this without municipal ok, and I understand there is a JEA historian that would want to make sure it was going to be cared for.
PPS even suggested it would make an interesting, sculptural play/kid structure if it could be brought out into the park. COJ seemed very uncomfortable with that idea.
Just mentioning it so anyone that's interested can pursue the issue further. It's a cool, historical piece of equipment, and it'd be a shame to let it sit and degrade to its eventual death...
I like this idea. Even if it can't be used to let kids play on, it could be a historical monument or focal point. Imagine the block bounded by Laura, 1st, Hogan and Phelps as more of a public square type of place. The old pumps could be preserved as a central monument (public art) that could be lit at night. Surrounding it, you could have something like a playground and interactive fountain. Those three elements on that site could be significant enough (with the Karpeles space), to pull in traffic from FSCJ, Bethel, DT and Springfield (connectivity).
Example: Gas Works Park in Seattle
(http://sas.guidespot.com/bundles/guides_o5/assets/widget_aekvRCyZDcojYuWQxTCAFH.jpg)
Example: Old steel making equipment included in a fountain at Station Sqaure in Pittsburgh
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/592816542_NRjuj-M.jpg)
If we don't have the money to save the Klutho designed spaces, then adding other items to the shopping list seems irresponsible. We are stewards of this space. Today fancy canals might be out of fashion, but I hardly think that gives us the right to make changes to this historic treasure.
Do we really think we can out design Klutho?
Fix the locks, fix the balustrades, leave the rest alone.
Quote from: fsu813 on November 21, 2009, 04:00:23 PM
I just think they didn't want the added work / complications and thought it wouldn't be a big deal to simpley put new ballustrades there instead. But I could be wrong.
The creek really isn't that deep. If its cleaned, they could probably not consider even putting in new ones. That would save some bucks for preservation.
Indianapolis Canal Walk(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/570693491_gp7jz-M.jpg)
San Antonio Riverwalk(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/san_antonio/Riverwalk-NoRails.jpg)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/san_antonio/Riverwalk-SidewalkCafe.jpg)
Riverscape Metro Park - Dayton(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/559893523_hLtNj-M.jpg)
Northshore - Pittsburgh(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/592818771_74RXX-M.jpg)
Inner Harbor - Baltimore(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/592129031_mpXgs-M.jpg)
San Diego(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/567314189_Wazbn-M.jpg)
QuoteFix the locks, fix the balustrades, leave the rest alone.
Locks and pumphouses are gone, ponds and their spillways are filled and lost. These are the things that made the Klutho/Imeson plan a successful stormwater management system, and with that water control, a nice park.
Can't fix missing locks. If only the balustrades are restored, without figuring out how to manage the water, the system will continue to flood and finish the ruination of the remaining historical features (restored balustrade).
True, you can't "fix" what isn't there, but you can install new water-control locks. It is important, even with a means to keep the St. Johns out, is the need to retain runoff from the areas surrounding the Park. This may need to include ponds outside the Park, to intercept run-off before it gets to the park. This could reduce the space in the park taken up by ponds. Also, the flood plain could be designed to flood in extreme conditions - that would mean no permanent buildings in the floodplain.
ahh, I think most would see that this statment:
Fix the locks, fix the balustrades, leave the rest alone.
... meant to fix the entire "system" but not add all the other new items on the shopping list. Don't move the dog park, do fix the balustrades, install the new lock system, pumps, etc. needed to make the parks viable and perhaps we do not start off by re-claiming lost park land, but put those funds to better use within the current park area. Let's not reinvent the wheel, so to speak, but rather by preserving and renewing what was done before (that most seem to believe worked) we can give something great to future generations.
Lake has been posting lots of pictures that seem to agree with the idea that a urban "creek" park can be "citified" and does not have to be "natural". The newer visions of "green" may be cool, but may also not have a proper place here on Hogan's Creek park system. Now is the time to speak our piece and let the planners know what we wish to see for our parks system. And here is a great place to do it. Not everyone can go to those meetings.
I think reclaiming parkland is ok in the long run, but it doesn't have to be immediate.
For instance, get the city to sign off on reclaiming the park under the Health Building when they are done using it. Rather than the normal system of putting public building up for RFP, and letting someone else take it over.
Then, in 10 or 20 years when the building has out lived its use (you KNOW Jacksonville cant maintain its buildings anyway) then it comes down. Its not unlike what is happening in Savannah with the squares they lost.
Second, I love the dog park. I, along with several others went into John Culbreths office and laid out a case for letting the dog park take most of the Confederate Park playground area (I also pushed to have get the surveyor parking out of there too). Its a great facility that is the most used park in Springfield. Wait until they add a playground. Thanks to SACARC and the SWC, it is one truly shining part of the overall park system. Would it have been better to use 4' fencing instead? Probably, but its hardly worth tearing it down and starting over.
I like the skate plaza, and I like to idea of maybe doing more of an athletic facility in McPherson park (I think this is in the plan, to some degree). It would be an awesome place for Shands employees, and neighborhood residents to use. There is currently a limited YMCA facility in the ground floor of one of the twin tower, so there would be a nice grouping if you add some tennis/handball/basketball courts to the area.
McPherson is a pretty park, but considering where it is and whats going on around it simply isnt working. Its little more than a homeless magnet right now. I would be ok with losing a pretty park for a functional park if it meant some postive interaction with Shands. Hell, you might even be able to get Shands to help cover the cost, since it would be of great benefit to their employees.
Redo the baseball field (its sloppy and under maintained now) but keep a bigger eye to Klutho. Go in, tear out the random sidewalks, remove the random holes and chunks of cement left over from the old Tennis Court light poles at 2nd and Blvd, and make it a nice utility greenspace/field. Maybe look into redoing the old Ashley Street bridge into a stage area for music festivals/plays/community and FSCJ events. The bandstand is great, but not practical for live music (at least, not the type you want to watch) Finish out the bandstand with bathrooms and a service/kiosk area for events (there is plenty of room, and the city has already signed off on the idea, they just dont have the money to make it happen).
I have many other thoughts, but these are a good starting place.
As for the flooding issue, restore the old lower pond, and maybe look at creating one more up stream near the health building. Then either seriously look at the lock/pump system, or look at other areas down stream (behind the Shulzbacher Center, Fire House 1, ect to create some storm water run off ponds. I personally hate retention ponds, BUT, they serve a purpose, and it would be better than having every major cross street cut off every time we get more than an inch of ran during high tide.
...and like you said in another thread, Dan...
Quote
Preserving ones history does not run counter to being progressive.
It is extremely important "to keep a bigger eye to Klutho."
"Honoring" the past should be a part of the New and Improved "Hogans Creek" Master Plan. There has been several previous Master Plans, done by other collaborators, and nothing came of those either.......why is this one different? If the City is pushing for this, I am against it.......because I am tired of paying for checks that the City's lips are writing! It would seem to me that having an organized concise vision of all of our Neighborhoods integrated into a Master Plan of what could be and what should be may be the most efficient way to consolidate our dollars into something that is cohesive,planned and cost effective.....or is that just me?
Quote from: CS Foltz on November 23, 2009, 06:43:54 AM
If the City is pushing for this, I am against it
shocking!
There is much talk in both of these creek threads of the dog park, of people pushing for it, of the proposal for a better playground. I believe the grant for the playground came about because of the fact that Springfield was getting this wonderful dog park and that the money was already there for it. It was there due to Lisa Neary and Melissa Miller. Please we have to honor Lisa, will you donate towards her bench which is to be custom poured by Pedroni, who probably cast the original balustrades.
We are about 2/3rds there, SACARC is giving $100, Strider and Sheclown gave very generously, others have also. We are probably looking at a $2000 bill, will you give and honor someone who gave so much.
where is the bench to be placed?
^JTA's North BRT corridor will directly connect Shands and FSCJ with frequent mass transit (a bus every 10 minutes with no stops inbetween the two destinations).
Fsu it will go with Michael Bryant's at the Dillon fountain at 3rd and Silver. Interest from the matching funds held in trust for many years by Lisa and the club helped pay for the fountain. If you go look at Michael's bench you will se it is almost a work of art. I f we should collect more money than required, we would like to put a plaque on the Dog park fence or somewhere there, she deserves it.
Ennis do you think Samba will contribute? The park is certainly bringing dog owners from all over into the district.
The two ISTEA ones were for $680,000 alone