A Jax Biz Journal article that I thought many here would find interesting.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Transit/North-Florida-TPO-2035-Needs/TPO-3/716037106_QBeFE-X2.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Transit/North-Florida-TPO-2035-Needs/TPO-4/716037096_8em9d-X2.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Transit/North-Florida-TPO-2035-Needs/TPO-2/716037095_qdyM3-L.jpg)
That "Clem" guy looks like a Prison imate; anyhoo, seems like some good money getting read to be spent on transportation initiatives. Let's stop talking, acquire the cash, and get the ball rolling!
Heights Unknown
All sounds good except for the outer beltway.
Don't worry. Unless a private company steps forward to build the outer beltway it isn't going to happen.
What exactly does he mean by "frequent trolley service". Potato chip trucks, I assume? Yippee.
Uh, Okay... So the TU editor can't read a pie chart, which in and of itself, probably qualifies him/her to be the mouth piece for the City of Jacksonville's TPO. Not just roads, awesome, so only 49% is roads! Cool man. Oops, but 36% is outer beltway, so that um, leaves um, 15% as mass transit! Sounds like more "just roads" to me. Where do we get these people, Colombia? Hell no, the THIRD WORLD IS MORE FIRST WORLD THEN OUR PRIMITIVE SOCIETY.
Jacksonville, time to pull your head out!!
OCKLAWAHA
I know this was supposed to sound like a positive step towards mass transit. To me it said move to Chicago.
No. Real streetcaars. They wouldnt put PCT's in the Long Range Plan.
The outer beltway has of course proven silent yet sticky during the past four decades of ever so careful and methodical narrative and events.The legally binding "NO BUILD" option and opportunity quietly came and went sometime ago- and I bet most reading this can not cite the workings or timing of that aspect- including the area's 'environmental community' that has focused on evil central Florida's overgrowth during 'water war' episodes yet has remained unaware and hardly engaged in the yet unseen yet quietly vested classic 'sprawl' narrative that has unfolded during the past twelve years-even John Delaney made pivotal pro beltway input.
The exception being the Florida Wildlife Federation.( what a bummer of a name for an organization so needed and involved in a host of broad ranging community and 'people' affairs....)
FWF managed to stem bold attempts at route through existing State Conservation lands/Ravines and contributed other key 'planning elements.Based in Tallahassee,the Florida Wildlife Federation Northeast Florida regional office was established in anticipation of such pressures.A lot of water had already gone under the bridge so to speak.And the 'public workshop' narratives,Brannon/Chaffee Sector plan,TWO Lake Asbury Sector plans,one curiously deemed 'non authorized' after months of activity and meetings whereby the predetermined beltway route outcome was fought back by area citizens is telling- also telling is the complete lack of 'reporting'.
The sad fact is the Beltway will prove a 'sacred catastrophe' for Northeast Florida.
The 'driver' for the beltway;Brannon/Chaffee,emerged during a past that would require a different future,and a future that would require a different past.In the words of former Clay County Planner Dick Post,"We have bought the farm".And every county planner since then has been joined at the hip with the ardent not militant development community.We get the government-and the landscape-we deserve.
Quote from: fsujax on November 17, 2009, 10:36:43 AM
No. Real streetcaars. They wouldnt put PCT's in the Long Range Plan.
Sad, we once again MUST educate these people on, what is a trolley and what is NOT. Recently I was told by a SPAR leader that "We don't need streetcars tearing up Main Street because we already have TROLLEYS!" Damn, pour on the SOCO...
THIS is due in no small part to the disservice JTA has provided in calling a "POTATO CHIP TRUCK-THINKS ITS A STREETCAR," -a trolley! NOT!OCKLAWAHA
Hence my confusion. What do they mean by "trolley" as cited in the article? Are we certain they mean streetcar?
Quote from: JeffreyS on November 17, 2009, 10:30:58 AM
I know this was supposed to sound like a positive step towards mass transit. To me it said move to Chicago.
To me it said we're spending twice as much money on something pointless, but at least you get the scraps this time. $775M over 25 years?? That's barely enough to do a new commuter rail study every 4 months......AHH!
Smoke & mirrors.It's all in the pitch.
The fact that the key Brannon/Chaffee leg has long history of erroneous promotion as "alleviation" for Blanding Blvd.in fact never mattered.....the ploy worked!
It's all about the lack of headlines....or the 'proper' headlines.
improper "rude" headline to read:
5 BILLION TRANSPORTATION PLAN INCLUDES ONLY 777 MILLION FORIN BUS,COMMUTER RAIL
Such a headline not to be seen or imagined even in MJ format.........
ONWARD- Mike Webster
Quote from: Tripoli1711 on November 17, 2009, 11:06:19 AM
Hence my confusion. What do they mean by "trolley" as cited in the article? Are we certain they mean streetcar?
They mean real streetcar, not the PCT.
Does anyone know if the streetcar is a serious proposal? In other words, is there a snowball's chance in hell that the city would attempt to fund $105 million dollars for a system that roughly parallels the skyway for about 40% of its route?
Based on my very cursory calculations of the distance to Springfield and the Stadium (and presuming the streetcar is double-tracked) they are proposing a system at about $11-$14 million per lane-mile. This seems extremely aggressive, and is actually cheaper than some of the lines that Portland built in 1990's dollars.
So is the proposal single-tracked? Is it a serious proposal? Who is behind it besides the TPO and that one private developer on Bay St? Any planners or transit experts who have the inside scoop?
I would be excited beyond belief if something like this actually happens. But when I read "$105 million" and "local funding" I have to roll my eyes at the suggested timetable of a couple years.
Let's see what's "good" and "bad" in the TPO plan and the associated costs:QuoteGOOD:
Trolleys/streetcars: $105 million
Commuter rail: $350 million
Amtrak to Miami: $268 million
CSX Green Cove Line Study: $4 million
Bicycle Paths: $55.8 million
TOTAL "GOOD": $782.8 million = Less than 16% of the $5 Billion total for effective innovative transit = A GIANT MISSED OPPORTUNITY THAT WILL SET US BACK FOR DECADES!
BAD:
Outer Beltway: $1.8 Billion
BRT: $151 million
TOTAL "BAD": $1.951 Billion = 39% minimum of the $5 Billion Total for urban sprawl and proven INeffective transit = A GIANT WASTE of TAXPAYER $$$$!
Mixed Bag, but "Bad" as planned:
Transportation Center: $110 million = A potential fiasco unless completely redesigned.
Neutral:
Mathews Bridge Six Lanes: $45 million (How can they add 6 lanes to the Matthews Bridge for "only" $45 million? Is this a typo? What exactly is the plan there?)
UNKOWN:
More roads* and possibly even more urban sprawl: $2.1112 Billion = Another 42% of the $5 Billion (*Not sure what else is unaccounted for by the article, so I have to assume the "Unknown" is all roads based on the pie chart and "business as usual".)
Once again, we are wasting precious time and resources chasing rainbows rather than firmly planting our feet on the ground and taking the real bull by the horns. Don't we have anyone at JTA,TPO, and/or COJ with real VISION and LEADERSHIP to lead this community into the 21st century?
Rest assured, that over the 20 to 25 year life of this new "plan", between rising energy costs, the lack of ability to sustain urban sprawl and our quality of life, and the sure-to-come crackdown on alleged global warming carbon emissions, the last thing this community should be doing is prioritizing the automobile by spending over 80% of our transit dollars on it.
Until this community shows signs of being more progressive, we will continue to be viewed from both the outside and inside as a backwater city featuring the "gang that couldn't shoot straight". ??? ??? ??? Good luck raising our living standards and growing jobs this way.
LOL
The Outer Beltway will start in Clay County @ I-295 and connect I-10 on the westside and I-95 in St Johns County?
I-295 is all Duval County, except for a tiny tiny tiny part the dips onto Clay County.
Sorry, this article should have been proof checked first.
Parts of the FCOB are a good idea, it became a bad idea when the developers got greedy and got the route moved south, then it sucked.
Clay has tried to alleviate Blanding & 17 traffic. Duval residents kill the Wells Rd Extension, they fight the wells to Collins rd overpass.
Branan Field/Chaffee is not a panacea nor is it a pipe dream.
Current work/imminent work on FCOB:
QuoteBranan Field â€" Chaffee Expressway (State Road 23) Build overpass at Plantation Oaks
Boulevard. Superior Construction Company of Jacksonville and ARCADIS should begin in
November 2009 and finish in 440 days (Early 2011) at a cost of $7,250,000. This is a
design/build project and is funded using federal economic stimulus funding
QuoteAdding paved shoulders from Old
Jennings Road to Kindlewood Drive (3.9 miles). APAC-Southeast, Inc., of Lutz began Sept. 14,
2009 and should finish in 120 days (early 2010) at a cost of $1,375,048.64
QuoteDesign to add lanes from Blanding Boulevard
(State Road 21) to the Duval County line (3.8 miles) is underway
QuoteCollege Avenue Extension (formerly known as the Cleveland Connector) Design to
construct new roadway between Blanding Boulevard (State Road 21) and Branan Field Chaffee
Road (State Road 23) to begin in 2012/13
QuoteTOTAL "BAD": $1.951 Billion = 39% minimum of the $5 Billion Total for urban sprawl and proven INeffective transit = A GIANT WASTE of TAXPAYER $$$$!
The FCOB isn't being built with taxpayer dollars. It won't get built unless there is a public-private partnership in place to fund it. At this point (in a recession), who knows if there is a private company willing to put up that kind of money.
Quote from: cline on November 17, 2009, 01:25:38 PM
QuoteTOTAL "BAD": $1.951 Billion = 39% minimum of the $5 Billion Total for urban sprawl and proven INeffective transit = A GIANT WASTE of TAXPAYER $$$$!
The FCOB isn't being built with taxpayer dollars. It won't get built unless there is a public-private partnership in place to fund it. At this point (in a recession), who knows if there is a private company willing to put up that kind of money.
Cline, it would still be mostly paid for by the money from local taxpayers through tolls. It just won't be "laundered" through government. And, if the private sector fails to find it feasible, I doubt the idea will fade away. Clay and St. Johns will just wait until the State is in better economic shape and revisit the money well. 20 to 25 years is a long time and these projects, once "planned" like this have a habit of finally getting built, one way or the other.
I already asked on another MJ Outer Beltway thread if this project would be DOA once and for all if private financing failed and I don't recall getting a clear answer. Do you have one?
Well, no one is going to be forced to use the FCOB. If someone choses to pay the toll then thats on them. I think we should at least be thankful that at last we finally got real transit projects in the long range plan. Do many of you realize this is a first? it takes real people who have a vision working within JTA with the TPO and thier consultants to make sure this happens. At least it's something. Now we have to be diligent to make sure things like streetcars anc commuter rail move forward. This will only happen when the TPO, JTA Board and City Council hear from us live at their meetings.
Yeah, In a weird way, I'm oddly indifferent to the FCOB.
On one hand, I think it's a really dumb plan. It will only bring more sprawl to Clay County and has dubious merit as an economic development tool. It's also INSANE that they want to replace the Shands Bridge, rather than build a new bridge in between Shands and Buckman.
On the other hand, I don't really have a problem with this as long as it's a privately funded toll road. If private citizens want to pay to build it, and pay to drive on it, that's fine by me.
I'd be more worried about the endless array of government-funded road widening projects that could take away funding from Commuter Rail and Streetcars. Like fsujax said, JTA and City Council needs to hear that people support these rail projects. Otherwise, they might conclude that widening our arterial streets to 20 lanes is the appropriate solution.
QuoteI think we should at least be thankful that at last we finally got real transit projects in the long range plan. Do many of you realize this is a first? it takes real people who have a vision working within JTA with the TPO and thier consultants to make sure this happens. At least it's something. Now we have to be diligent to make sure things like streetcars anc commuter rail move forward. This will only happen when the TPO, JTA Board and City Council hear from us live at their meetings.
This is very true. I think people need to be reminded that the TPO Board, which ultimately approves the Long Range Plan Updates, is made up of many elected officials and leaders. As fsujax points out, up until this LRTP update transit wasn't even included (which is pretty sad). I think it is safe to say that in the past, transit options were not even on the radar of many of our elected officials. With this update it appears that these leaders are starting to see and understand the benefits of offering transportation and mobility options. Hopefully this is illustrative of a new way of thinking among the leadership in Jax and we can move forward with these projects.
This is not the first time there have been transit projects in the LRTP. This is, however, we have seen a significant shift in investment from highways to transit. This changes is due in large part to public support for transit evoked in numerous public meetings throughout the region. It is also supported by TPO policies discouraging widening of arterials beyond 3 lanes in each direction, promoting the use of technology to improve the efficiency of the road system we have on the ground today, promoting alternative fuels and vehicles and other measures to reduce transportation-related greenhouse gas emissions. Nevertheless, we are a long way from the day when our long range plans will not include road improvements. That said, this LRTP include projects programmed by the Florida Department of Transportation as part of the Strategic Intermodal System. These funding decisions are made in Tallahassee and the TPO, as well as the 25 other metropolitan planning organizations have no choice but to drop these projects into their plans. These account for 75% of the highway funds. The TPO programs only 25% of the remaining "other arterial funds." Other "regionally significant" projects like the First Coast Outer Beltway" must also be included because of the air quality impact they will have on our region.
LRTPs are not cast in stone. They are revisited every 5 years. If conditions change, if a funding source is no longer available, if new funding sources are identified, if population declines or grows, and/or if federal regulations change, these changes can be taken into consideration.
Instead of worrying if this is the right plan for 20 or 25 years from now, or complaining about the outcome, get involved in the decision making.
This is a fiscally contrained plan, many projects went unfunded. It is a plan based in reality. There isn't a lot of funding available, we are between Transportation authorizations. Also, many seem to think FTA has money to give away, just for the asking. If they did every city in America would have light-rail. In a perfect world States wouldn't have giant wholes in their budgets and be underfunding education, transportation, Medicaid and just about everything else to balance the budget. And, cities would have ample revenue to subsidize transit, build and maintain roads, support education... The state and local contribution of funding for this LRTP is significantly lower than it has been in the past. Federal, state and local fuel tax revenue has declined as people drive less. Fuel tax funds the federal and state trust fund.
Look for the positive!
Get involved in the decision making??????????
Well,it is a bit late for that-indeed much cast in stone,to the tune of billions.
But is perfectly now the right time to encourage involvement and lodge first posts in MJ.
I have been a student of,and involved in "Beltway" issues since 1979- involvement including Vice Chair of Statewide planning/conservation organization that eventually created Northeast Florida office- also too late in some regards,due to mushrooming proposals and manipulated public hearings,predetermined outcome.
(The Genesis involvement for it's client during the first Prosser Hallock Lake Asbury sector plan probably worthy of formal investigation).
I predicted some time ago that only by getting to this point would the certain faces be revealed.
It's going to be fascinating.
The chants; 'Get involved','be positive' ring hollow.
There are many provocative aspects to the long narrarative of beltway placement and promotion.Revealing,provocative events never reported to the public.
Stephen Dare,meet with me some time- I will share with you items I shared with the Florida Times Union/David Baierlein in two lengthy interview meetings-David even trailed me to the Water Management District permitting office- yet none of the insights- although provocative,certainly prophetic- were ever shared with the readers.
How many know of John Delaney's hand in key Brannon/Chaffee permit events??
The US ArmyCorp of Engineers/St.Johns River Water Management District B/C permit file is one of the most sought after under FOI/Freedom Of Information act.
The subject is too vast to even attempt to address in this format- I should not even attempt to comment.
Indeed, this latest round of news has elevated the Beltway to heights never before known-the 'public' can storm all they want now but "too late".Even the area's environmental community has been clue-less to the long narrative-and yes that includes the RiverKeeper.(FWF an exception) This is just one of many faces that will emerge over time.
Yes Stephen- the possibilities have ocurred to me.
All the news that wasn't...........
For the confused, These photos are ALL TROLLEYS. The first two show where the term comes from, the smallish trolley wheel that rolls along a SINGLE wire, or pair of wires in the event of rubber tires or RARE railways with double wires.
(http://www.proto87.com/media/ss_size1/pole_wheel.jpg)
TROLLEY, from the root TROLLING, as for fish. The wheel on the end of the pole trolls or trolleys behind the vehicle.
(http://www.qcarcompany.com/listings/Part_Drawings/B109.gif)
From a catalog, a trolley pole and trolley wheel.
(http://newgenerationtransport.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/trolley-b-1.jpg)
Early trolley bus
(http://newgenerationtransport.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/Trolley-504-b.jpg)
Early trolley bus and trolley cars (Streetcars = aka: LIGHT RAIL VEHICLES or LRV's). Mr Clem saying we won't build Light Rail but will build "Trolleys" is like saying General Motors doesn't build cars, they build automobiles.
(http://www.omnibussociety.wellington.net.nz/publication/fnotes/wct302.jpg)
A modern Trolley Bus in New Zeland, as in the old days, A TRUE TROLLEY, but properly called a "Trolley BUS."
(http://www.thetransportco.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/ttc0144.jpg)
A modern Trolley Car in Toronto Canada, also A TRUE TROLLEY, but properly called a "Trolley Car" or "Streetcar".
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THIS THING...
(http://downtownjacksonville.org/_images/city%20view/trolley.JPG)
This JTA "Trolley" is not a TROLLEY, a STREETCAR, a TROLLEY BUS, or even a very good BUS! In fact IMO it looks more like the baby died and the afterbirth lived... Meet the abomination we call the JTA PCT (Potato Chip Truck) Trolley.
Anyone want to join me in having these photos pasted inside the JTA HQ? Would it do any good? Hell everyone in Jacksonville knows we don't need Light Rail or Streetcars... "We already have Trolleys..."
Where's my REBEL YELL? OH GOD! RETCH!
OCKLAWAHA
QuoteThis JTA "Trolley" is not a TROLLEY, a STREETCAR, a TROLLEY BUS, or even a very good BUS! In fact IMO it looks more like the baby died and the afterbirth lived... Meet the abomination we call the JTA PCT (Potato Chip Truck) Trolley.
The LRTP project refers to an actual streetcar project not the PCT or an extension of the PCT.
Quote from: Joe on November 17, 2009, 12:12:13 PM
Does anyone know if the streetcar is a serious proposal? In other words, is there a snowball's chance in hell that the city would attempt to fund $105 million dollars for a system that roughly parallels the skyway for about 40% of its route?
Based on my very cursory calculations of the distance to Springfield and the Stadium (and presuming the streetcar is double-tracked) they are proposing a system at about $11-$14 million per lane-mile. This seems extremely aggressive, and is actually cheaper than some of the lines that Portland built in 1990's dollars.
So is the proposal single-tracked? Is it a serious proposal? Who is behind it besides the TPO and that one private developer on Bay St? Any planners or transit experts who have the inside scoop?
I would be excited beyond belief if something like this actually happens. But when I read "$105 million" and "local funding" I have to roll my eyes at the suggested timetable of a couple years.
Joe, it's a REAL PLAN. The Local Part is why we can do it for this amount of $$. Really, we could do it for perhaps half of this if we followed some of the museum, restoration, or other "heritage streetcar", practices. Memphis has built several lines in the $2-3 Million dollars a mile price range and recent 2008 talks with contractors have produced estimates of no more then $4-5 million a mile for STATE-OF-THE-ART single track streetcar line + catenery. If we go off in the direction of modern streetcar then the vehicle cost climbs rapidly, if we shift to heavier construction to accommodate that light rail that we're not going to build, then again the costs climb. Using the KISS Method, (Keep it simple stupid = KISS) there is no reason for us to be breaking the bank on this project, and not still score a major new component to our lives.
Keep in mind that streetcars usually are priced on an "out the door" type quote, ie: they include the catenery, cars, shop, stations, etc... BRT and other systems are priced as road, rolling stock and shops, per component of the system.
Another economy is going with the tried and true trolley pole on the vehicles, and ordering them all as DOUBLE ENDED. This eliminates the need for turning loops at the ends of the lines, and keeps the overhead very simple. It is also a TRUE-TO-PROTOTYPE practice dating from our own Jacksonville Traction Company of 1912-36. OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: cline on November 17, 2009, 07:04:41 PM
QuoteThis JTA "Trolley" is not a TROLLEY a STREETCAR a TROLLEY BUS or even a very good BUS! In fact IMO it looks more like the baby died and the afterbirth lived... Meet the abomination we call the JTA PCT (Potato Chip Truck) Trolley.
The LRTP project refers to an actual streetcar project not the PCT or an extension of the PCT.
Right you are Cline, it's a REAL streetcar... hopefully the same heritage system I first proposed to JCCI and DDA back in 1980. Streetcar? Jacksonville? "I'm your huckleberry..."OCKLAWAHA
I am all for the "commuter rain" but have no idea what the hell "more" is? Bus's should be feeder for the rail system but what do I know!
Quote from: wakeup on November 17, 2009, 04:09:30 PM
This is, however, we have seen a significant shift in investment from highways to transit.
OK, Wakeup, I'll give some credit for what you call "progress". However, it's also "progress" when the first fire truck shows for a 4-alarm fire. But, it isn't gonna help much until the rest of the fire department shows up. When are we going to get a fully prioritized and funded mass transit program for Northeast Florida? As you say, yourself, lip service has been given for a long time. Meanwhile, we work AGAINST OURSELVES by creating new urban sprawl through over funding road expansions that (1) divert resources from mass transit and (2) cause even greater need for the mass transit we aren't adequately funding putting us further and further behind the 8-ball. Quote.... It is also supported by TPO policies discouraging widening of arterials beyond 3 lanes in each direction, promoting the use of technology to improve the efficiency of the road system we have on the ground today, promoting alternative fuels and vehicles and other measures to reduce transportation-related greenhouse gas emissions.
I didn't see any of these policies elaborated on in the articles but will take your point at face value. I seem to remember (Tufsu, I believe) saying there are already plans to 8 lane I-295 in places. Are you saying this isn't going to happen? And, what are the specifics that TPO is putting in place to encourage alternative fuels and vehicles? It seems most of that is coming at the Federal level. Just how effective is TPO in seeing these policies through or is this mostly "mom and apple pie" rhetoric for an unknowing public?QuoteThese funding decisions are made in Tallahassee and the TPO, as well as the 25 other metropolitan planning organizations have no choice but to drop these projects into their plans. These account for 75% of the highway funds. The TPO programs only 25% of the remaining "other arterial funds." Other "regionally significant" projects like the First Coast Outer Beltway" must also be included because of the air quality impact they will have on our region.
If Tallahassee decides 75% of the funded uses, what's the point in the TPO speaking on those items for which they have no say over? Why not let Tallahassee speak for itself and defend its own point of view?
I don't understand the comment you make on the First Coast Outer Beltway. Are you implying that it may deprive investment in other area road projects by utilizing "air quality credits" that may be available to support other road projects? If this is the case, then the community should be made aware that, aside from funding, the FCOB will effect our community by preventing road improvement elsewhere in the TPO region. Is this correct?QuoteLRTPs are not cast in stone. They are revisited every 5 years. If conditions change, if a funding source is no longer available, if new funding sources are identified, if population declines or grows, and/or if federal regulations change, these changes can be taken into consideration.
Aside from the change in the timing of projects, can you reveal the recommendations from 5,10,15, and 20 years ago for the equivalent agency and tell us which recommendations did not get built and are no longer being considered? Which projects on this list do you think are likely to fade away forever? 9B? Outer Beltway? Something else?
Quote from: Joe on November 17, 2009, 02:23:01 PM
On one hand, I think it's a really dumb plan. It will only bring more sprawl to Clay County and has dubious merit as an economic development tool. It's also INSANE that they want to replace the Shands Bridge, rather than build a new bridge in between Shands and Buckman.
On the other hand, I don't really have a problem with this as long as it's a privately funded toll road. If private citizens want to pay to build it, and pay to drive on it, that's fine by me.
To clarify, do the private funders of a FCOB pay for the acquisition of the land as well as the construction of the road? Who does the eminent domain takings? If the State does, does it get compensated? Can they still do this for a private project after the Supreme Court ruling a few years ago putting constraints on eminent domain takings for private projects?
Also, even if the road is privately funded to your satisfaction Joe, who do you think pays for all the other infrastructure needed to support the urban sprawl it creates? Who pays for all the new roads built or expanded to connect to the FCOB? Don't these costs amount to a "hidden" taxypayer subsidy of the FCOB? Are you willing to pay for that?
I think that $11 to $14 Million per mile price tage is a bit too much.................how about it Ock? Last that I remember figure wise we were talking about 6 to 7 million per mile or am I mis-remembering? We have had so many figures being spouted about that I am having a hard time trying to remember them all! I also have to question the "more" part too!
THE GENERAL "PUBLIC",AND REGIONAL CONSERVATION/ENVIRONMENTAL COMMUNITY HAS BEEN ABSENT FROM CORE MPO DECISION MAKING PROCESS THAT HAS BEEN EXTENDED TO THEM.
Folks,
Good thread discussion...sorry I've been absent as I was travelling today.
So a few quick comments on the article and the LRTP (apologize if these have already been answered)
1. Streetcar
These are real and almost the entire system was funded
2. Outer Beltway
Not included in federal, state, or local funds, only built if private entity does so...and tolls are a user fee....most who scream about taxes talk about government waste....tolls only get paid by those who use the road.
3. Mathews Bridge
Seriously misquoted cost in the article - the LRTP estimates $215 Million....the $45 Million figure probably is the next project down on the table (MLK interchange @ 21st St)
4. Needs Plan vs. Cost Feasible Plan
Total needs were around $12 Billion ($9.3 in roads, $2.5 in transit)...Cost feasible Plan includes $4.4 Billion in roads (Outer Beltway = $1.8B), $721 Million in transit, and $56 Million for bicycle/pedestrian projects.
5. Roads vs. Transit
Generally, the Federal government funds transportation at an 82/18 split (roads to transit)...most communities follow this but are not much more aggressive....in the case of this LRTP, the public funds being expended are around $3.3 Billion...and the roads to transit ratio is 78/22....while the 4% increase in transit seems small, it is in fact exactly what the transit advocacy group, T4America, is recommending for the new federal transportation authorization bill.
6. Public Involvement
There were many chances for folks to comment on both the needs plan and the cost feasible plan...this site even ran articles and publicized the meeting dates....it is because of the diligence of the TPO, JTA, FDOT, consultants, and the public that the final plan includes a robust transit system.
Quote from: CS Foltz on November 17, 2009, 08:20:14 PM
I think that $11 to $14 Million per mile price tage is a bit too much.................how about it Ock? Last that I remember figure wise we were talking about 6 to 7 million per mile or am I mis-remembering? We have had so many figures being spouted about that I am having a hard time trying to remember them all! I also have to question the "more" part too!
The LRTP estimate is based on a figure of $9 Million per mile for construction (similar to # Ock has given)....but there also must be environmental studies, design, and even some minimal ROW....those things increased the overall project costs.
Quote from: north miami on November 17, 2009, 08:39:47 PM
THE GENERAL "PUBLIC",AND REGIONAL CONSERVATION/ENVIRONMENTAL COMMUNITY HAS BEEN ABSENT FROM CORE MPO DECISION MAKING PROCESS THAT HAS BEEN EXTENDED TO THEM.
Not at all true...in fact, members of the environmental community were included on the LRTP Steering/Stakeholers commitee....and every project was analyzed using the state's environmental screening tool.
NO-The enviro community has not been involved in key historical events.
The soon to emerge "Nocatee" was eviaps but 'missdent in obscure MPO future roadway maps but 'missed'.
The Northeast office of the Florida Wildlife Federation was created in attempy to become proactive-I know of what I speak- I was Vice Chair/FWF during the northeast office initiative.
The local enviros have been largely unaware and clue-les of beltway and related narrative.
Further,let's not grant the public and enviro community much credit-the
EXCUSE ME......SOMEONE HIT THE 'delete' BUTTON,MUMBLING SOMETHING ABOUT WASTED ENERGY
historical events, maybe...this LRTP (topic of the thread), not true
Quote from: CS Foltz on November 17, 2009, 08:20:14 PM
I think that $11 to $14 Million per mile price tage is a bit too much.................how about it Ock? Last that I remember figure wise we were talking about 6 to 7 million per mile or am I mis-remembering? We have had so many figures being spouted about that I am having a hard time trying to remember them all! I also have to question the "more" part too!
I would challenge JTA or the CITY to farm out the construction and operations to a non-profit "Traction Company." Allow volunteerism to slash the budget. Before somebody goes off about not getting any help in Jacksonville, let's remember that as the nations 5Th largest railroad center, we have THOUSANDS of guys retired, or not old enough to hold down a run, that would just LOVE to play trains. Dallas runs it's entire McKinney Avenue streetcar line with only one paid employee, and we could probably best them by several techie types and operators.
The greatest economy in going with all local dollars, is we can thumb our noses at many of the FTA regulations for new starts. For example, Tampa, Little Rock, Dallas, etc... all have chair lifts or small ramps with elevated platforms for wheelchair or handicapped passengers. But along comes the FTA with GW's anti-rail bias, and now we'd have to build European style high platforms at every station if we use their funds. So much for anything authentic or "New Orleans" cool.
So if we want an AUTHENTIC, REAL, revival of OUR OWN unique "Jacksonville Traction Company," then we self fund and build. Two years to operation is VERY MUCH a possible goal, even in Jacksonville. World Cup Games anyone? FIFA? Streetcars? Finished Skyway? Stadium Access via multimodal? BRT? Community circulators? You better believe if we land this fish we'll get the FTA and everybody Else's attention... BTW JACKSONVILLE, the WORLDS FAIR is also up for grabs in 10 years or so, and it's been everywhere but the USA for the last dozen or more. (http://www.trinityriverinterchange.com/files/images/186.jpeg)
A JAXSON IN DALLAS? MAYBE SO!------------------------
TUSFU1, Thanks for the back up my friend, I've been drowned in the "liar pool" ever since I walked the system with a car load of contractors. You are of course right, RofW cost money and streetcars ALWAYS do better on their own RofW. Again it is something, thanks to our railroad heritage, that our city is blessed with. I have a car builder that is a friend and has told me he will build our heritage cars - the first two AT COST. Stone and Webster Turtlebacks Anyone? Dallas has 5 and in rebuilding a second one, they are willing to horse trade for $ or services. We have FEC, CSX, NS, WATCO SHOPS, and TTX... I'm sure we could find something they need... Also some of the Dallas Turtlebacks CAME FROM JACKSONVILLE! (More views? look em up in photo search). OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: tufsu1 on November 17, 2009, 08:42:00 PM
1. Streetcar
These are real and almost the entire system was funded
Tufsu, if this is "funded", is there a timetable for actual construction? Is it phased or does it all get built at once? Please elaborate.Quote2. Outer Beltway
Not included in federal, state, or local funds, only built if private entity does so...and tolls are a user fee....most who scream about taxes talk about government waste....tolls only get paid by those who use the road.
See my questions in various posts #19,34,and 35. Do you have answers to any of these? Anyone else?Quote3. Mathews Bridge
Seriously misquoted cost in the article - the LRTP estimates $215 Million....the $45 Million figure probably is the next project down on the table (MLK interchange @ 21st St)
Tufsu, thanks for the clarification. As I noted, this didn't make any sense. I wish reporters would be more careful with their numbers and double checking them. Maybe they learned how to crunch numbers from JTA ;D . No excuse for such a glaring error to get by. Still unanswered, how do the six lanes come to fruition? Another span next to the existing? Added to existing span? New bridge altogether? From the price, it would appear they just add on to the existing span. Is that correct?Quote4. Needs Plan vs. Cost Feasible Plan
Total needs were around $12 Billion ($9.3 in roads, $2.5 in transit)...Cost feasible Plan includes $4.4 Billion in roads (Outer Beltway = $1.8B), $721 Million in transit, and $56 Million for bicycle/pedestrian projects.
So we go with almost 50% of the road projects and abut 30% of the transit projects (that's if I include the bike/pedestrian numbers)? This is my point. Even with "progress", we fall further behind while we build more roads to add to urban sprawl to put us even more behind. Ugggghhh!Quote5. Roads vs. Transit
Generally, the Federal government funds transportation at an 82/18 split (roads to transit)...most communities follow this but are not much more aggressive....in the case of this LRTP, the public funds being expended are around $3.3 Billion...and the roads to transit ratio is 78/22....while the 4% increase in transit seems small, it is in fact exactly what the transit advocacy group, T4America, is recommending for the new federal transportation authorization bill.
Given our history, we need BIG steps, not small steps. If we were "below average" before, at some point we need to make it up with being "above average". This is progress, but at this rate, we won't "catch up" until the year 3000. I was hoping more would happen during my lifetime and I don't think I will make it until then. Can we get a bigger push?Quote6. Public Involvement
There were many chances for folks to comment on both the needs plan and the cost feasible plan...this site even ran articles and publicized the meeting dates....it is because of the diligence of the TPO, JTA, FDOT, consultants, and the public that the final plan includes a robust transit system.
I did go to their web site and "play" the transit decision making "game". Funny, but my finalists came out different than the TPO's. I was 100% mass transit and 0% Outer Beltway. Where did I go wrong? ???
Tufsu, out of curiosity, can you name names and tell us who within the TPO and outside the TPO pushed for the Outer Beltway? Who spoke up and said it was a bad project? Did 9B get any further discussion regarding NOT building it?
ok...I'll try to answer these
1. Streetcar - timetable is not set in stone, but without significant local funds, construction probably could not commence before 2020....that said, there is potential that the City/JTA may be able to use other funding sources (like concurrency fees) to get it started sooner.
2. Outer Beltway - this of course is a multi-layer project....I'm not sure that a private entity is going to step up to do this, but I also doubt that the project will ever truly die if one doesn't come forward....land acquisition would be done by FDOT with the costs being passed on to the private entity....eminenet domain shouldn't be an issue given that the road will in fact be a lease w/ FDOT getting the facility after some time (I think its 75 years)....that said, the Supreme Court case (Kelo vs. New London) in fact held up the use of eminent domain for primarily private interests as long as the economic development "good" case can be proven.
3. The Mathews bridge is a tough nut to crack....the LRTP revenues are only for new capital projects...$215 million may not be enough....but bridge replacement funds (same ones being used for I-95 Overland Bridge) might be able to supplement.
4. Math is misleading...take the Outer Beltway out of the equation and roads were funded at 35% of needs...plus one of the problems with the transit needs is it included commuter rail to Palatka, Palm Coast, and Maccleny....since these are outside the TPO area, they would never have been funded with our area's funds anyway...perhaps they shouldn't have been listd in the Needs Plan to start with.
As for naming names on the Outer Beltway or 9B, I can not....what I can tell you is that both project were discussed at some length...in the end, a decision was made to try and fund all of the TPO priority projects (which have remained constant for several years)....both projects are on this list.
Also note, as Wakeup said in an earlier post, that many of the road projects are on FDOT's Strategic Intermodal System (SIS)....these projects and costs came from Tallahassee and were considered a given....9B and the Outer beltway were on this list...bottom line, of the $4.4 Billion in roads, the TPO only really got to allocate about $1 Billion.
(http://blogtown.portlandmercury.com/files/2007/06/streetcar.jpg)
Take a CLOSE look, In Jacksonville, progress is not always forward. QuoteTUSFU1
1. Streetcar - timetable is not set in stone, but without significant local funds, construction probably could not commence before 2020....that said, Lakelander tells me the City is moving towards funding streetcar w/ developer's concurrency payments.
There are several benefits here that can become funding for expansion or operations. The current parking requirements for new high rises downtown or within the "streetcar/skyway districts," should be eliminated providing out laying garages such as the Kings Avenue, and a factor from the park and ride lots. The sales pitch is simple, BUILD IN JAX = enjoy great downtown transit + no need to spend a huge chunk of change on parking up front. This is done because they located and/or BUILT within the district and agreed to a formula of transit tax + transit passes for employees. None of this is rocket science, but there are many ways to get this done.
What we don't need and CAN'T AFFORD, is to get all swishy - washy about completion of the streetcar as we have done with the Skyway segments. IE: Don't build the damn things if we are not going to address the parking and building requirements for the same. Don't half way build something on traffic that doesn't and may NEVER exist. Currently there IS a flow from Riverside, Springfield, San Marco, Westside, Arlington, into downtown, every day. We can not afford to "Do the Skyway Dance" and shift our lines from a sound recommendation, such as Government Center - Landing - FCCJ, and end up with another Central Station - DEAD TINY Convention Center disaster. OCKLAWAHA
Tufsu, thanks for all the question answers!
I believe you have validated my perception that once a project gets "endorsed" onto the list, it's likely here to stay until it finally gets funded. So, the here and now is important for the there and later. 9B, Outer Beltway, and projects like them that create urban sprawl are assured for the next 20 years. We need to make sure we bring a stop to such nonsense.
The "funded" streetcars really aren't at this time. And, the Matthews Bridge is just a shot in the dark until it moves up on the list.
I am befuddled by the idea of a TPO when Tallahassee decides 80% or so of the projects. Looks like political smoke and mirrors to me.Quote....that said, the Supreme Court case (Kelo vs. New London) in fact held up the use of eminent domain for primarily private interests as long as the economic development "good" case can be proven.
Well, this is certainly a debatable point in some quarters. Maybe someone could take FDOT to court over this and block the project. A protester should buy a small parcel in the path of the road and make a case of it.
Tufsu, what about Wakeup's comment on air quality? Does the Outer Beltway eat into certain allowances for this that might affect other road projects in the region?
Quote from: stjr on November 18, 2009, 12:34:09 PM
I believe you have validated my perception that once a project gets "endorsed" onto the list, it's likely here to stay until it finally gets funded.
This applies to the transit projects on the list too....that's why this is such a breakthrough!
As for the air quality comment, I'm not sure.
The trouble with the "Outer Beltway," (besides wrecking the former base and 800 ship port at Green Cove Springs) is that it continues the long-standing federal push toward far-flung McMansions and away from dense, urban living. In the 1950s, the Interstate Highway System encouraged Americans to flee older urban areas. Nathaniel Baum-Snow of Brown University found that each “new highway passing through a central city reduces its population by about 18 percent.’’
Carbon Neutrality in Clay, Duval and St. Johns? The Kyoto Accords established targets for the global reduction of harmful green house gasses. There are many ways to achieve this goal. One approach is to produce things using less energy,and the other is to re-form waste into new products to minimize new GHG creation. Companies, cities and transit agencies that do a particularly good job of reducing emissions can sell this value through Verified Emissions Reductions “VERs†and Reduced Emissions Credits “RECsâ€. A roadway manufactured from recycled and non-petroleum based materials and filled with solar powered automobiles would earn valuable credits from the UN. So outer beltway? Commuter Rail? Streetcar or LRT? Skyway? You tell me which ones will be worth MILLIONS and which one will cost us a "Carbon Tax!"
Not thinking long term out in the sticks here, there ARE BETTER WAYS even if we accept sprawl.
OCKLAWAHA
TUFSU, re: the Kelo case. After Kelo a lot of states passed state laws limiting eminent domain for economic development purposes. Was Florida one of those? If so might make land acquisition for the outer beltway a problem.
On the sprawl note,a rambling observation:
Many in the past twenty years or so have been attracted to certain areas due to lack of "sprawl"...only to find that what they saw-and perhaps sold-was not what they got.
The emergence of Edge Cities is fascinating,there at least fifteen such in the Northeast US and we of course have our own versions in Northeast Florida.
The uncanny resemblence of the Jacksonville area trend to Southeast Florida induced the creation of my user name.
We don't have the Everglades to the west- we're on our way to resembling Atlanta,which in fact is the realization of the dreams of many.
"Sprawl" is the result of unspoken assumptions,'projections' and the blind acceptance of the drumbeat of "inevitable growth".
Northest Denver has held back on a beltway proposal ...and such a 'public' process as the one that has delivered the First Coast beltway would never proceed in Alachua county for example.
Quote from: Dog Walker on November 18, 2009, 04:23:04 PM
TUFSU, re: the Kelo case. After Kelo a lot of states passed state laws limiting eminent domain for economic development purposes. Was Florida one of those? If so might make land acquisition for the outer beltway a problem.
Florida didn't change their laws...felt they were strict enough anyway
Quote from: north miami on November 18, 2009, 06:30:24 PM
On the sprawl note,a rambling observation:
Many in the past twenty years or so have been attracted to certain areas due to lack of "sprawl"...only to find that what they saw-and perhaps sold-was not what they got.
The emergence of Edge Cities is fascinating,there at least fifteen such in the Northeast US and we of course have our own versions in Northeast Florida.
The uncanny resemblence of the Jacksonville area trend to Southeast Florida induced the creation of my user name.
We don't have the Everglades to the west- we're on our way to resembling Atlanta,which in fact is the realization of the dreams of many.
"Sprawl" is the result of unspoken assumptions,'projections' and the blind acceptance of the drumbeat of "inevitable growth".
Northest Denver has held back on a beltway proposal ...and such a 'public' process as the one that has delivered the First Coast beltway would never proceed in Alachua county for example.
Some edge cities have developed quite nicely over time...Bethesda and Rockville outside D.C. for example.
Atlanta has also grown up quite a bit....still sprawling, but also a pretty cool urban vibe going on.
As for Alachua County...guess what, they've had a bypass/beltway proposal bantered about for over 10 years.
Alachua county is a whole different demographic,with much more spirited, knowledgeable citizen input and other initiatives.
The ill fated Jax/Tampa toll road during the Martinez administration is testimony to the Alachua outlook- Gainesville area intersts killed Jax/Tampa,which was to originate from Brannon/Chaffee,and has of course easily turned itself back in the form of the TPO plan and beltway.
There are in fact myriad 'plans'- MPO future roadways maps predict the future.
And the public response is typically:stunned incomprehension
Some would call folks in Alachua County visionary and progressive...others might be better suited for these
terms
BANANA - build absolutely nothing anywhere near anything
CAVE - citizens against virtually everything
Some would call folks in Alachua County visionary and progressive...others might be better suited for these
terms
BANANA - build absolutely nothing anywhere near anything
CAVE - citizens against virtually everything
[/quote]
It's all about a shrinking world in the face of 'growth'.
NIMBY is in fact an honorable,responsible position in many instances.......there are now enough new backyards to alter the issues and outlooks.
and where would you suggest the additional 10 million Floridians (and 100 million Americans) expected between now and 2030 live?
We can't all be NIMBYs
The fire has already been lit on the Jacksonville - Gainesville shuttle train, let's see if it picks up any steam... HA! HA!
BTW, almost all of the interest is from Alachua and Baker Counties, LEAD ON lil' brothers and sisters.
OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: tufsu1 on November 23, 2009, 05:28:33 PM
and where would you suggest the additional 10 million Floridians (and 100 million Americans) expected between now and 2030 live?
We can't all be NIMBYs
Tufsu, if they really show up, they can live in close-in, high density housing. Where do you think we will put people when we run out of buildable land? Do we give up all our forests, agriculture, wetlands, and remaining natural areas for endless houses, stores, and roads? At some point, it must come to an end as our current path of development is not sustainable from an ecosystem, infrastructure, economic, natural resource, or environmental standpoint. The sooner we deal with these limitations and adjust for them the better.
Live right or die!
stjr...........I agree! That is what I refer to when I use the word "Vision".............not only now, as in right now, but tomorrow plus 20 yrs. Vision and a Plan is something that I keep harping about and rightfully so since the current Administration does not appear to have much of either. That is both Jacksonville and Tallahassee by the way.......at least Washington appears to be trying but time will tell! TPO is taking input from a lot of sources, including the public, and shows some imagination with a spectrum of transportation choices. I would like to see more rail or trolley systems since they can move people at a cheaper cost per rider.....but that just me! tufsu1 ....the label "NIMBY" could be used to start someone down a political path. I offer "Suzanne Jenkins" as an example.......if you know how she got started you will understand.
Rebuild the Matthews? I hope they somehow implement a walkway. That would be nice.
I agree that we need to re-populate our urban areas and that they should accomodate much of the expected population growth.
The problem with NIMBY is that it applies to everything and everywhere....just look at the Springfield threads....clearly that community wants renewal, but can't even agree on whether a car wash should be allowed on a site that has historically been a car wash!
The result of the NIMBY mentality is that some developers look for land away from other people...its far easier not dealing with neighborhood groupsand such.
You got that right. That's a real fear I have concerning the future of Main. Too much NIMBYism can label an area as a place to avoid in the development world. In the end, the things NIMBYs really want, also end up looking for land away from other people.
Such a good point Tufsu1. The perfect example is The Jackson square development. People would rather have their next door neighbors be prostitutes and drug dealers than risk improving the area and have one more car come down their street.
^^very well said JeffreyS. It is so true and sad at the same time.
Quote from: stjr on November 24, 2009, 12:26:51 AM
Quote from: tufsu1 on November 23, 2009, 05:28:33 PM
and where would you suggest the additional 10 million Floridians (and 100 million Americans) expected between now and 2030 live?
We can't all be NIMBYs
Tufsu, if they really show up, they can live in close-in, high density housing. Where do you think we will put people when we run out of buildable land? Do we give up all our forests, agriculture, wetlands, and remaining natural areas for endless houses, stores, and roads? At some point, it must come to an end as our current path of development is not sustainable from an ecosystem, infrastructure, economic, natural resource, or environmental standpoint. The sooner we deal with these limitations and adjust for them the better.
Live right or die!
Problem with this line of thinking, is that some people will then claim imminent domain over someone's 20 acres of land that have been in their family for generations, just to plan an apartment building. (hey high density over land use right?)
There are still a lot of acreage owners on the southside of Jax, same with westisde and northside. I'd say Duval alone could handle another 7-10 million people.
Some of us would rather see stars at night over seeing our neighbors fight on their balcony.
Quote from: jandar on November 24, 2009, 10:20:04 AM
Problem with this line of thinking, is that some people will then claim imminent domain over someone's 20 acres of land that have been in their family for generations, just to plan an apartment building. (hey high density over land use right?)
Well, what do you think happens when FDOT uses eminent domain to build the Outer Beltway to support urban sprawl? By the way, I think using eminent domain for an apartment building, while perhaps not unheard of, is far, far rarer than taking land for urban sprawl projects.Quote...Some of us would rather see stars at night over seeing our neighbors fight on their balcony.
With light pollution from urban sprawl, no telling how many hundreds of miles you might need to travel to see the stars. Sure isn't going to be within 30 miles or more of Jax (unless you head into the ocean) for much longer.
Quote from: stjr on November 25, 2009, 04:48:39 PM
With light pollution from urban sprawl, no telling how many hundreds of miles you might need to travel to see the stars. Sure isn't going to be within 30 miles or more of Jax (unless you head into the ocean) for much longer.
Thats true, although it is hilarious, of all of the AGW and Tree Huggers and others that I meet, Light Pollution is not even thought of.
Seems if you limit sprawl development, you preserve trees, and could reduce the emission of greenhouse gasses through compact, efficient development, which leaves more places that aren't polluted by light. Just because it isn't mentioned, doesn't mean it isn't important, and part of the "package".
Quote from: Charles Hunter on November 25, 2009, 09:45:02 PM
Seems if you limit sprawl development, you preserve trees, and could reduce the emission of greenhouse gasses through compact, efficient development, which leaves more places that aren't polluted by light. Just because it isn't mentioned, doesn't mean it isn't important, and part of the "package".
I love lights Charles, Mars Lights, Headlights, Crossing Lights, Marker Lights, Lantern Lights, Dwarf Lights, Semaphore Lights... etc. I just wish we had more of them. OCKLAWAHA
For those of you that love lights.......why not bring a glowing torch to the Decembr 17th "Regional Planning Council" Leggo meeting.Peter Rummell.......and 'enviro love fest' John Delaney attending.
First ever "Florida League Of Progress" Notheast Fla. "event" by absolute take over since Miami Herald's Carl Haasen's "Kick Ass" editorial "Jacksonville's Millionth Mania" effort-referencing "North Miami".
that doesn't even make sense
Quote from: tufsu1 on November 26, 2009, 09:37:45 AM
that doesn't even make sense
I'm quickly starting to realize that a lot of what north miami says makes no sense.
Quote from: north miami on November 25, 2009, 10:55:57 PM
For those of you that love lights.......why not bring a glowing torch to the Decembr 17th "Regional Planning Council" Leggo meeting.Peter Rummell.......and 'enviro love fest' John Delaney attending.
First ever "Florida League Of Progress" Notheast Fla. "event" by absolute take over since Miami Herald's Carl Haasen's "Kick Ass" editorial "Jacksonville's Millionth Mania" effort-referencing "North Miami".
I know what north miami is saying, albeit in a cryptic way.
You are invited to the December 17th the N.E. Florida Regional Planning Council hosts its First Coast "Reality Check" Roll Out at UNF -- bring your pitch forks and torches ... BTW-
Has anyone here read this?
http://www.realitycheckfirstcoast.com/images/index_37_1747208176.pdf
Where can I get one of those descramblers?
Quote from: NthDegree on December 06, 2009, 09:09:39 AM
I know what north miami is saying, albeit in a cryptic way. You are invited to the December 17th the N.E. Florida Regional Planning Council hosts its First Coast "Reality Check" Roll Out at UNF -- bring your pitch forks and torches ...
BTW-
Has anyone here read this?
http://www.realitycheckfirstcoast.com/images/index_37_1747208176.pdf
So why the pitchforks and torches? North Miami hinted that the leggo's somehow make our efforts look bad, if this is true, then NM is guilty of the same lack of creativity that has stunted our city for at least 70 years. Lego Tech, for all of the jokes is a really great idea, any fool can read numbers off a screen or page, but they take on proportion when one can visualize their volume. I don't know where they got the idea, but funny as it might be, I love it. Cost wise, it beats the hell out of buying 20,000 Monopoly Games, and stealing the little plastic houses and apartment buildings out of the boxes!
I'm also not convinced that North Miami or NthDegree realize that virtually everybody that is anybody in the City, including the planners, are right here discussing the projects. WE ARE THEM!
So roll up your sleeves and join in the love - fest, every comment helps make our city a better Jacksonville.
Does anyone have a link to the Miami editorial? Trying to look it up under the information we were given doesn't work. OCKLAWAHA