Metro Jacksonville

The Jaguars - How Jacksonville Became an NFL City

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/710796823_JgfLP-M.jpg)

It's one of the most talked about topics at the water cooler - the Jaguars - and their ticket sales woes. Up to this point, the Jaguars have yet to even be close to selling out any of their home games, and most likely will not for the rest of the year. It seems every national media outlet has had at least one writer take a shot at Jacksonville for the lack of ticket sales.

Today, Metro Jacksonville begins a seven part series discussing the Jaguars and the Jacksonville Market, and how they compare to other NFL cities.

Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2009-nov-the-jaguars-how-jacksonville-became-an-nfl-city

QuoteHow things have changed in 15 years.

Indeed... 15 years ago Jacksonville accomplished the impossible... 15 years later we seem to be on the cusp of repeating this in the reverse... forfeiture of an NFL team.

Sports marketing 101...  When you need ticket sales, you go to all of the large companies and work up SPECIAL deals to get the tickets sold (deep discounts).  Also, try $1 hot dogs and peanuts or beer. 

If it is going to cost $200 for tickets to take the wife and 2 kids to the game, food and drinks should not cost another $150.  In these times, a total of $350 for a 4 hour game to watch a struggling team is a hard sale.  I am a big JAG's fan, but this is the first year I did not renew my season tickets (personal financial reasons). 

I sure hope we keep the team, but the marketing for the team needs to get creative - not just blame the fans for not spending half their paycheck to come to the game.

^^^

QuoteHow things have changed in 15 years.

They have gone to large companies and do offer those employees discount tickets. Same with the military. One of my friend's is in the Navy and gets end zone tickets for 10 bucks a pop. My brother works at Citigroup and they get discount tickets that include a hot dog, popcorn and soda. I am sure there are plenty of other companies that have the same deal but we just don't know about it.

Wow...could you please change that first picture....brings back bad memories from my childhood growing up in Baltimore  :(

some of the dates in this are also a bit off

1. I assume the Express was 1975, not 1995
2. Memorial Stadium in Baltimore was built in 1950....on the site of a previous stadium from the 20's

Of course the March 29, 1984 date is correct....pretty late in the year for a snowstorm in Bal'mer

btw....great article!

Reading that brought back so many good memories. I was in high school and remember being so excited about getting the Jags. I remember watching the announcement live on Channel 12. It was truly a fun time for Jacksonville. Getting the new stadium and seeing lines of people all out of the doors at JC Penney's across the city for people to buy Jacksonville Jaguar shirts was amazing. Where has the excitement gone? I still believe we have a great stadium. Going to almost all the home games, our stadium is still in great shape and a fun experience.

Quote from: tufsu1 on November 13, 2009, 08:09:05 AM
Wow...could you please change that first picture....brings back bad memories from my childhood growing up in Baltimore  :(

I agree.  Doesn't exactly send the right message.  Why not the one of Wayne Weaver holding up the TU with the headline, "WE DID IT"?

Understood.  Maybe some of us (OK, just 2 so far :P) are just a bit sensitive to the spectre of moving trucks in the night, and the message it sends concerning MJ's stance on the future of this team in JAX.

I don't mind confronting the reality of the situation, but I'm not ready to concede yet another failure for the city.

Quote from: Hurricane on November 13, 2009, 07:45:55 AM
Sports marketing 101...  When you need ticket sales, you go to all of the large companies and work up SPECIAL deals to get the tickets sold (deep discounts).  Also, try $1 hot dogs and peanuts or beer. 

If it is going to cost $200 for tickets to take the wife and 2 kids to the game, food and drinks should not cost another $150.  In these times, a total of $350 for a 4 hour game to watch a struggling team is a hard sale.  I am a big JAG's fan, but this is the first year I did not renew my season tickets (personal financial reasons). 

I sure hope we keep the team, but the marketing for the team needs to get creative - not just blame the fans for not spending half their paycheck to come to the game.

I've posted this in several other threads, but the Jaguars are already offering many food and drink specials.  There is a $5 value meal available at every game, and if I recall correctly it's different food items from week to week that fall in this category too (e.g., not always a hot dog, sometimes a Bubba Burger).  Also, when I bought tickets I got two vouchers for a free hot dog, coke, and popcorn.

What an exciting time. I remember my parents and all their friends that had relocated south became Jaguar fans over night. Everyone I knew hung up their old team and purchased their season tix.

Why is it so hard to win new Jags fans today?

It's funny to read the boosters at the time basically saying that with the addition of an NFL franchise Jacksonville would more or less instantly become a world-class city.  We see how that's worked out...

It's too bad the powers that be won't put as much time, money and effort into things that really matter as they did into creating a few minimum wage popcorn-selling jobs.

The whole "The Jags may be moving" topic is waaaaaaaaaay over hyped.

Guess how many years the Jags have been last in the league in attendance? None. ZERO.

Now all of sudden we may move?

It's just hype from the media...national media mostly.....that want to see a team in LA. Speculation on a team moving to LA generates readers and viewers.

Jags attendance ranking (out of 32 teams):

2008 -19th
2007 -22nd
2006 -19th
2005 -below 16th (league only reported the top 16 before 2005)
2004 -16th
2003 -below 16th
2002 -below 16th
2001 - below16th

From 2001-2003 the Jaguars were never last.

So attendance hasn't been stellar, but certainy nowhere near the worst.

It's all hype.

Quote from: Shwaz on November 13, 2009, 09:48:43 AM
What an exciting time. I remember my parents and all their friends that had relocated south became Jaguar fans over night. Everyone I knew hung up their old team and purchased their season tix.

Why is it so hard to win new Jags fans today?

Because the teams that sucked (and people set aside loyalties for) at the time the Jaguars were born aren't so bad in comparison anymore, while the Jaguars have struggled (despite the '05 and '07 playoff appearances) over the last decade?

Average fans (those not in the stadium right now) will support either something new, or a winner.  Jaguars are neither right now, in their eyes.  Never mind the number of rookies starting and contributing to this team, and the fact they are 3-1 at home.

Some fans who prefer to sit at home say they can "watch a winner for free," 70 miles west.  Never mind that college football ranking is essentially rigged to favor the more popular programs and their big-money conferences.  Never mind that it punishes playing top talent every week, leading to non-conference games against Troy and Charleston Southern.  The pressure to go undefeated and lay 40-50 on a team to stay competitive for the Championship leads many, many fans of a 9-0 Gators team to anger in victory, where the should be joy.  That spills over to the Jaguars, who are lambasted for beating the awful Rams and Chiefs by only 3 points.
 
Some people still pine for the early days;  there are still people who said we should get Brunell as a back up this offseason.  

Some people are racist toward the players.  They call the players thugs, but the guys who earned the team that rep have been cast off.  Some jackass was on the Jaguars MB this week dropping N-bombs in reference to our QB situation.

It just goes on and on.  The problem is not the team;  it's us.  Until the so-called "fans" wake up and realize it, we'll have to deal with the relocation talk.

Quote from: tufsu1 on November 13, 2009, 08:33:17 AM
some of the dates in this are also a bit off

1. I assume the Express was 1975, not 1995
2. Memorial Stadium in Baltimore was built in 1950....on the site of a previous stadium from the 20's

Of course the March 29, 1984 date is correct....pretty late in the year for a snowstorm in Bal'mer

btw....great article!

Express date was wrong, Memorial Stadium is actually correct because it was technically a renovation in the 1950's

And Yes, March 29th 1984 is DEFINITELY correct.

Quote from: finehoe on November 13, 2009, 09:50:41 AM
It's funny to read the boosters at the time basically saying that with the addition of an NFL franchise Jacksonville would more or less instantly become a world-class city.  We see how that's worked out...

It's too bad the powers that be won't put as much time, money and effort into things that really matter as they did into creating a few minimum wage popcorn-selling jobs.

Having an NFL team really matters. The Jaguars bring over $200 million dollars to this city per year.

Quote from: finehoe on November 13, 2009, 09:50:41 AM
It's funny to read the boosters at the time basically saying that with the addition of an NFL franchise Jacksonville would more or less instantly become a world-class city.  We see how that's worked out...

It's too bad the powers that be won't put as much time, money and effort into things that really matter as they did into creating a few minimum wage popcorn-selling jobs.

One could say the same for the Symphony; yet few are calling for funding to be cut, the TU center to not be maintained to standard, or to "let them leave."

Let's not just chuck out an asset because one doesn't appreciate sports or football.

Oh, and how about 53 guys, among whom the lowest-paid makes around a half-mil, paying property taxes in Jax?  That's not even counting coaches, office execs, and staff?

The millions in donations from the Jaguars Foundation?

The national notoriety?  When's the last time anyone had to add "Florida" when you told someone you were from Jacksonville?

QuoteSome fans who prefer to sit at home say they can "watch a winner for free," 70 miles west.  Never mind that college football ranking is essentially rigged to favor the more popular programs and their big-money conferences.  Never mind that it punishes playing top talent every week, leading to non-conference games against Troy and Charleston Southern.  The pressure to go undefeated and lay 40-50 on a team to stay competitive for the Championship leads many, many fans of a 9-0 Gators team to anger in victory, where the should be joy.  That spills over to the Jaguars, who are lambasted for beating the awful Rams and Chiefs by only 3 points.

Why can't people be a fan of both?

Quote from: ac on November 13, 2009, 10:12:15 AM
Some fans who prefer to sit at home say they can "watch a winner for free," 70 miles west.  Never mind that college football ranking is essentially rigged to favor the more popular programs and their big-money conferences.  Never mind that it punishes playing top talent every week, leading to non-conference games against Troy and Charleston Southern.  The pressure to go undefeated and lay 40-50 on a team to stay competitive for the Championship leads many, many fans of a 9-0 Gators team to anger in victory, where the should be joy.  That spills over to the Jaguars, who are lambasted for beating the awful Rams and Chiefs by only 3 points.

Imagine if the Gators had to play a top 25 team every week.

Schwaz- That's the 64-thousand-dollar question, isn't it?

Steve-  My point exactly.

Quote from: fsu813 on November 13, 2009, 10:01:34 AM
The whole "The Jags may be moving" topic is waaaaaaaaaay over hyped.

Guess how many years the Jags have been last in the league in attendance? None. ZERO.

Now all of sudden we may move?

It's just hype from the media...national media mostly.....that want to see a team in LA. Speculation on a team moving to LA generates readers and viewers.

Jags attendance ranking (out of 32 teams):

2008 -19th
2007 -22nd
2006 -19th
2005 -below 16th (league only reported the top 16 before 2005)
2004 -16th
2003 -below 16th
2002 -below 16th
2001 - below16th

From 2001-2003 the Jaguars were never last.

So attendance hasn't been stellar, but certainy nowhere near the worst.

It's all hype.

You're absolutely right, and it's ridiculous and points to a sports media double standard that one season of bad ticket sales in Jacksonville = constant LA move speculation and ridicule, whereas year after year of horrible ticket sales in Cincinnati, Arizona, or Tampa did not lead to the same.

That said, we must be diligent in trying to put an end to this problem quickly.  It is impossible to sustain an NFL team under the current economic model with the ticket sales we're experiencing this year, and it may try even Mr. Weaver's patience, which is substantial.  More significantly, Mr. Weaver is 74 and finding a successor who is willing to keep the team here may prove difficult.  Jacksonville has the ability and the potential to turn this situation around and prove to the world its love for NFL football and capability of sustaining the Jaguars.  Now is the time for the turnaround to start.

Alliteration aside....how did they pick the name Jaguars?  Seattle Mariners, Pittsburg Steelers, NY Islanders, etc. are legit names for their respective town.  They also have to do something about their hideous uniforms!  The dumped the only good one they had...the all black ones.  Maybe they could do a helmet similar to the Bengals, but obviously use Jaguar spots instead of tiger stripes?

Quote from: finehoe on November 13, 2009, 09:50:41 AM
It's too bad the powers that be won't put as much time, money and effort into things that really matter as they did into creating a few minimum wage popcorn-selling jobs.

Right. That is the only impact the team has had on the community and the local economy.

Quote from: ac on November 13, 2009, 09:43:52 AM
Understood.  Maybe some of us (OK, just 2 so far :P) are just a bit sensitive to the spectre of moving trucks in the night, and the message it sends concerning MJ's stance on the future of this team in JAX.

I don't mind confronting the reality of the situation, but I'm not ready to concede yet another failure for the city.

Make that three of us.  I still remember the TV commercial showing a moving van pulling up to an ATM and football players getting out.  The tag line was "need to withdraw money in a hurry?"  Not the best marketing campaign....

Baltimore was emotionally crushed by that incident.  On the other hand, it was the impetus necessary for a great new ballpark and a separate football stadium - clustered at the Inner Harbor and served by light rail.  Perhaps if (when?) we lose the Jags we can re-focus on building projects that will draw people downtown more often than a few Sundays in the fall.

Quote from: willydenn on November 13, 2009, 10:42:01 AM
Alliteration aside....how did they pick the name Jaguars?  Seattle Mariners, Pittsburg Steelers, NY Islanders, etc. are legit names for their respective town.  They also have to do something about their hideous uniforms!  The dumped the only good one they had...the all black ones.  Maybe they could do a helmet similar to the Bengals, but obviously use Jaguar spots instead of tiger stripes?

It was a contest held in 1991.  I think that you will find if you look at a list of all team names in professional sports, names like the Steelers, Mariners, Islanders, Mets, are the exception, not the rule.

A lot of the popcorn sales men in the stadium are volenteers working for free to allow the money raised to go to the group or charity that runs the stand.

Quote from: Steve on November 13, 2009, 10:53:22 AM

Quote from: willydenn on November 13, 2009, 10:42:01 AM
Alliteration aside....how did they pick the name Jaguars?  Seattle Mariners, Pittsburg Steelers, NY Islanders, etc. are legit names for their respective town.  They also have to do something about their hideous uniforms!  The dumped the only good one they had...the all black ones.  Maybe they could do a helmet similar to the Bengals, but obviously use Jaguar spots instead of tiger stripes?

It was a contest held in 1991.  I think that you will find if you look at a list of all team names in professional sports, names like the Steelers, Mariners, Islanders, Mets, are the exception, not the rule.

The other finalists were Sharks, Stingrays, and Panthers.

Touchdown Jacksonville's cited reasons for picking Jaguars were that no U.S. pro sports team used it and that jaguars actually do have a connection to Jacksonville, though not an obvious one.  The Jacksonville Zoo has a long and successful history of jaguar breeding.  Most melanin-deficient black jaguars in U.S. zoos are the offspring of a single long-lived black jaguar at the Jacksonville Zoo.  Also, at the time the team was named, the oldest living jaguar in captivity was a zoo resident.

Quote from: willydenn on November 13, 2009, 10:42:01 AM
They also have to do something about their hideous uniforms!  The dumped the only good one they had...the all black ones.  Maybe they could do a helmet similar to the Bengals, but obviously use Jaguar spots instead of tiger stripes?

The T-U had an artist do a concept uniform that had spots on a gold helmet, I think back in 2002 or 2003.  It wasn't pretty.  I've been hunting for an image of it, but can't find it.

Edit:  Here it is.

(http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/77051/sptpromo_uglyjags1_815.jpg)
Still want that helmet?

Oh, and the current uniforms are fine.

I work part time at the stadiums on gamedays and I make a lot more than minimum wage. My takehome after taxes is about $22 an hour. There are a lot of well paying jobs up there. I have many friends that have year round jobs at the stadium who make very good salaries.

Plus the tax revenue from sales at the game, as well as the property taxes paid by the players helps this city.

On another note, I think they did a good job with the new uniforms. Matter of fact, I got a new Maurice Jones Drew jersey yesterday for my birthday, to replace my old style one that had completed it's life span.

The Jaguars bring over $200 million dollars to this city per year.

Source, please.

Regarding the Jags not being near the bottom in attendance over the years, check out this year's attendance in Jacksonville...

http://espn.go.com/nfl/attendance

Granted, it's unfair that the national media is jumping all over us for not filling the stadium.  But, at the end of the day, the people of Jacksonville have got to wake up and quit blaming other people for our own problems.  The fate of the Jaguars lies in the fans' hands.  Period.  It's time to quit making excuses and support your team.

Quote from: ralpho37 on November 13, 2009, 11:48:04 AM
Regarding the Jags not being near the bottom in attendance over the years, check out this year's attendance in Jacksonville...

http://espn.go.com/nfl/attendance

Granted, it's unfair that the national media is jumping all over us for not filling the stadium.  But, at the end of the day, the people of Jacksonville have got to wake up and quit blaming other people for our own problems.  The fate of the Jaguars lies in the fans' hands.  Period.  It's time to quit making excuses and support your team.

You're right, of course.  I think the posters on not being near the bottom over the years were just making a point about a double standard in media coverage.

Yeah I figured that, but my point is that we are abysmally lower than even the next lowest team.  Take a look at the percentage of capacity too.  That's a very frightening statistic.

Quote from: finehoe on November 13, 2009, 11:46:21 AM
The Jaguars bring over $200 million dollars to this city per year.

Source, please.

Here's one.

http://jacksonville.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/stories/2009/11/02/daily27.html (http://jacksonville.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/stories/2009/11/02/daily27.html)

QuotePeyton said keeping the team here is a vital economic issue.

”The Jaguars organization has a $200 million-plus economic impact on this community and in terms of national image, philanthropic support and community pride, has contributed more to Jacksonville than any other entity,” he said.

Quote from: ralpho37 on November 13, 2009, 11:53:43 AM
Yeah I figured that, but my point is that we are abysmally lower than even the next lowest team.  Take a look at the percentage of capacity too.  That's a very frightening statistic.

I don't think we have more empty seats at our home games than a team like Oakland, Detroit or St Louis. The main difference is our seats are unsold. The NFL attendance figure is tickets distributed no actual attendance.

Quote from: ac on November 13, 2009, 11:55:59 AM

Quote from: finehoe on November 13, 2009, 11:46:21 AM
The Jaguars bring over $200 million dollars to this city per year.

Source, please.

Here's one.

http://jacksonville.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/stories/2009/11/02/daily27.html (http://jacksonville.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/stories/2009/11/02/daily27.html)

QuotePeyton said keeping the team here is a vital economic issue.

”The Jaguars organization has a $200 million-plus economic impact on this community and in terms of national image, philanthropic support and community pride, has contributed more to Jacksonville than any other entity,” he said.

Uh, I meant some actual statistics, not just a quote from someone who has an obvious bias.

AFAIK, those numbers came from the CoC, and have not been published.

Speaking of obvious bias, would it matter whether someone can produce the numbers you desire?

Quote from: finehoe on November 13, 2009, 12:16:58 PM

Quote from: ac on November 13, 2009, 11:55:59 AM

Quote from: finehoe on November 13, 2009, 11:46:21 AM
The Jaguars bring over $200 million dollars to this city per year.

Source, please.

Here's one.

http://jacksonville.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/stories/2009/11/02/daily27.html (http://jacksonville.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/stories/2009/11/02/daily27.html)

QuotePeyton said keeping the team here is a vital economic issue.

”The Jaguars organization has a $200 million-plus economic impact on this community and in terms of national image, philanthropic support and community pride, has contributed more to Jacksonville than any other entity,” he said.

Uh, I meant some actual statistics, not just a quote from someone who has an obvious bias.

I know someone else who has an obvious bias.

Here is an interesting statistic.  For 2009, so far, the Jags are THIRD in the NFL in percentage of attendance capacity on the ROAD at 100.7 percent, only behind the NY Giants and the Seattle Seahawks.  Maybe our opponents fans either figure we are a sure win for them to go witness or we have a lot more closet fans around the country than in Jax.  Go figure.

Here is some Jax football history I previously posted on another MJ thread about area football history ( http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,5489.0.html#quickreply ).  I attended the second one of these games in 1969 and have one of these programs and in it the mayor's letter of welcome speaks to our aspirations for a pro football team.

Quote from: stjr on July 14, 2009, 12:33:30 AM
AFL * ALL STAR GAMES * in Jax:

(http://www.mmbolding.com/BSR/proafl68program.jpg)

(http://www.mmbolding.com/BSR/proafl682.jpg)
"Joe Namath Sneaks Over for the Winning Score"

Season: 1967
Date: January 21, 1968    
Score: East, 25-24
MVP's: Offense: Joe Namath, QB, Jets; and Don Maynard, F, Jets;  Defense: Speedy Duncan, DB/KR, Chargers
Location: Gator Bowl, Jacksonville, Florida

QuoteThe largest AFL All-Star Game crowd in history witnessed the 1968 game. A crowd of 38,500 showed up at the Gator Bowl in Jacksonville, FL. It was a game of old and new. The old being George Blanda of Oakland at age 40 and the new being Joe Namath, the young superstar of the league.

In the first quarter, San Diego’s Leslie “Speedy” Duncan fumbled a punt at his own 25 yard line. The East quickly turned it into a 10 yard field goal by Mike Mercer of the Bills. It would only take about 10 seconds for Duncan to redeem himself. Speedy took the ensuing kickoff at his own ten, shot up the middle, eluded George Saimes of Buffalo and went 90 yards for the touchdown. In the second period, Daryle Lamonica of Oakland hit Willie Frazier of San Diego for a 3 yard touchdown pass. Joe Namath of the Jets kept the East in the game with a 35 yard touchdown pass to his NY teammate, Pete Lammons. But, Lamonica answered, hitting another Charger, Lance Alworth, from nine yards out. When Mercer connected on his second field goal, this time from 33 yards with :37 to go, the West held a 21-13 halftime lead.

Len Dawson of the Chiefs took over for Lamonica in the third quarter, but neither team could sustain any offense. The West appeared to ice the game in the fourth quarter when George Blanda of Oakland hit a 28 yard field goal to put the West up 24-13. This especially with the fact that Namath was having trouble finding his receivers. But, Namath connected with fellow Jet, Don Maynard, for a 24 yard touchdown pass. The attempted two point conversion failed and the score was 24-19. By this time, there was concern among the crowd and players that West coach, Lou Saban of Denver, should reinsert Lamonica into the game to get the West going. But, Saban elected to stick with the pre-game plan of playing each quarterback for a half. With two minutes to play, Larry Garron of Boston, a last minute addition to the East squad, took a pass from Namath and carried it 26 yards to the West ten. Garron then gained three to the seven and Houston’s Hoyle Granger bulled it 6 yards to the one. Namath scored the game winning touchdown on a sneak with :58 left. Again, the two point attempt failed and the score was East 25, West 24. Lamonica came back into the game and drove the West within field goal range. But, ageless Blanda, the AFL’s scoring leader for 1967, just missed the attempt from 35 yards at the final gun, wide by inches.

Namath and Maynard shared the offensive MVP honors. Namath established a record by throwing for 249 yards and Maynard’s 128 receiving yards was also a record. Duncan was elected the game's defensive MVP and his 90 yard kickoff return was also a record.

(http://www.mmbolding.com/BSR/proafl69program.jpg)

Season: 1968
Date: January 19, 1969    
Score: West, 38-25
MVP's: Offense: Len Dawson, QB, Chiefs; Defense: George Webster, LB, Houston Oilers
Location: Gator Bowl, Jacksonville, Florida

Quote
The 1969 AFL All-Star Game was played in the aftermath of the most marvelous event in the history of the young league. The previous week, the New York Jets had defeated the NFL’s Baltimore Colts for the world championship. The East squad was loaded with Jets players. A record crowd of 43,800 saw the game at the Gator Bowl in Jacksonville. The coaches were Hank Stram of Kansas City for the West and Wally Lemm of Houston for the East.

In the first quarter, Joe Namath of the Jets and John Hadl of the Chargers led their teams. The scoring was confined to a field goal per team as New York’s Jim Turner connected from 27 yards out for the East and Jan Stenerud of Kansas City hit a record 51 yarder for the West. The East did all the second quarter scoring as Jim Kiick of Miami carried the ball in from the two and Turner connected on three more field goals from 16, 19 and 13 yards. The halftime score was 19-3. Hadl completed only 4 of 19 passes for 23 yards in the half and had three intercepted. Namath, meanwhile, completed 7 of 18 for 98 yards and had one intercepted.

In the second half, Bob Griese of Miami assumed the quarterbacking duties for the East, Len Dawson of Kansas City for the West. Dawson had not originally been chosen for the team (although he had led the league in average yards gained during the season), but Coach Stram exercised his option and chose Dawson as a backup. Dawson hit Bob Trumpy of the Bengals on a 6 yard touchdown route to bring the West to within nine at 19-10. Turner booted his fifth field goal of the game from 18 yards in the third quarter and that was matched by Stenerud, who hit from 30. The score at the end of the third quarter was 22-13. Turner gave the East some cushion at 25-13 when his kick from 21 yards out was good early in the fourth quarter. It was Turner’s sixth field goal on the afternoon. But, then the floodgates opened. In 6:15, the West scored 25 points. It started when Denver’s Floyd Little took a pass from Dawson and scampered 81 yards down the sideline to the East one yard line. Oakland’s Hewitt Dixon carried it in from there. The score was 25-20. Jim Lynch of the Chiefs then recovered an onside kick at the East 43, Dawson hit Warren Wells of Oakland for 37 yards and Cincinnati’s Paul Robinson (AFL rookie of the year) carried over on a one yard run few plays later. The West had the lead for the first time. Lynch then intercepted a Griese pass and ran 37 yards to the West one where Robinson again carried it in. Stenerud added a 32 yard field goal, his third on the afternoon, in the closing minutes and the final was 38-25.

Dawson was selected as the offensive player of the game. He was 4 of 9 for 158 yards in the second half. Houston’s George Webster was selected as defensive player of the game.

(http://www.mmbolding.com/BSR/proafl692.jpg)


See following articles:
http://www.mmbolding.com/BSR/The_1968_AFL_All-Star_Game.htm

http://www.mmbolding.com/BSR/The_1969_AFL_All-Star_Game.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Football_League_All-Star_game

stjr, that's why it kills me to see four decades of desire for pro football in this city potentially fizzle out like this.

It feels like we're just a bunch of spoiled children who wanted the pet for so long, begged for it; now we've had it long enough for the 'fun' factor to wear off, and the realization it takes work and commitment to care for it has set in.  So we're going to just abandon it on the side of the road somewhere.

Typical Jacksonville.

Quote from: Steve on November 13, 2009, 10:13:23 AM

Express date was wrong, Memorial Stadium is actually correct because it was technically a renovation in the 1950's

And Yes, March 29th 1984 is DEFINITELY correct.

Using this logic, Jax. Municipal Stadium is also from the 1920's....but its not, because these aren't like the many renovations of old Yankee Stadium.

Check the wikipedia page for info. on the Baltimore stadiums

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memorial_Stadium_(Baltimore)

^True, however I thought it was important to list it that way, because Bob Irsay used this argument when pushing for a new stadium.

yeah, but Bob Irsay was an idiot!

Quote from: copperfiend on November 13, 2009, 12:31:42 PM

I know someone else who has an obvious bias.

In other words, the $200 million figure can't be substantiated.

Quote from: finehoe on November 13, 2009, 12:16:58 PM

Quote from: ac on November 13, 2009, 11:55:59 AM

Quote from: finehoe on November 13, 2009, 11:46:21 AM
The Jaguars bring over $200 million dollars to this city per year.

Source, please.

Here's one.

http://jacksonville.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/stories/2009/11/02/daily27.html (http://jacksonville.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/stories/2009/11/02/daily27.html)

QuotePeyton said keeping the team here is a vital economic issue.

”The Jaguars organization has a $200 million-plus economic impact on this community and in terms of national image, philanthropic support and community pride, has contributed more to Jacksonville than any other entity,” he said.

Uh, I meant some actual statistics, not just a quote from someone who has an obvious bias.

Please hold while the mayor sends over the books for your approval...

Why is it so hard to believe anyways? It's been public knowledge that the Jaguars are the largest economic and philanthropic contributor the community and have been for years.

Quote from: Shwaz on November 13, 2009, 01:36:37 PM
Please hold while the mayor send over the books for your approval...

Ha!  Like an elected official would answer to a constituent!  :D

If it's "public knowledge" it should be easy to prove.  So let's see some actual facts and figures, not just what people (and politicians with a vested interest) "believe" to be true.

I spoke to a reporter at the TU via Twitter and he said the paper is still sourcing the 200 million figure, so they have nothing yet, other than the quotes from the Mayor and CoC.

However, when you start thinking in terms of the money that goes to the various vendors and businesses that supply services to the team, and other businesses that indirectly benefit (parking, sports bars, hotels, etc.) it isn't that outlandish, especially when you consider the estimated annual impact of just having the FL/GA game is $25M.
(http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2009-10-27/story/city_offers_incentives_to_keep_florida_georgia_game)
As far as the community benefits, those are well-documented:

http://wokv.com/blogs/jaguars/2009/08/jaguars-foundation-announces-g.html (http://wokv.com/blogs/jaguars/2009/08/jaguars-foundation-announces-g.html)

QuoteUnder the leadership of Delores Barr Weaver, Jaguars Foundation Chair and CEO, the Foundation's total grant giving since 1995 is more than $12.5 million for youth-serving programs in the Jacksonville area, which includes Duval, Baker, Clay, Nassau, and St. Johns counties. This level of giving is among the top few of professional sports teams.

That doesn't include the various trips the players take to hospitals, schools, neighborhoods, NAS/Mayport, taking underprivileged kids on Christmas shopping sprees, and all the other things they do that don't get the same publicity as when someone screws up.

Quote from: finehoe on November 13, 2009, 01:35:54 PM

Quote from: copperfiend on November 13, 2009, 12:31:42 PM

I know someone else who has an obvious bias.

In other words, the $200 million figure can't be substantiated.

I wasn't the one who referenced it. Does it matter if somebody does prove it? You seem pretty set in your ways.

I don't think wanting to know the facts about something demonstates that one is set in their ways.

While we’re waiting for the T-U reporter to get back to us, let me offer the following for your reading pleasure:

“Unlike manufacturing plants or warehouses, professional sports teams generate non-financial benefits like civic pride and world-class city status for their host communities. Yet these benefits don't seem to justify the public spending needed to build a 21st century stadium. Instead, proponents justify those subsidies with claims of economic benefits the surrounding community will collect. According to these claims, a new facility will create thousands of new jobs, generate millions of dollars of new income for residents and add additional millions of dollars to state and local coffers.

The decision facing local officials appears to be a "no-brainer:" For the bargain price of $500 million to $2 billion, the city keeps its beloved sports franchise, gets a shiny new facility and a powerhouse engine of local economic development.

Unfortunately, economic research consistently finds no evidence supporting these claims.? My own research, published in peer-reviewed academic journals, and based on past economic performance of all U.S. cities with a professional football, basketball or baseball franchise since 1969, concludes that professional sports teams and facilities increased employment and earnings in only one small sector of the economy -- the recreation and amusement industry. It actually reduced earnings and employment in related industries like hotels, bars and restaurants.

Overall, professional sports reduced real per-capita income in their metropolitan areas by about $40 per year.”


http://www.businessjournalism.org/pages/biz/2005/06/finding_the_bottom_line_for_sp/

The large and growing peer-reviewed economics literature on the economic impacts of stadiums, arenas, sports franchises, and sport megaevents has consistently found no substantial evidence of increased jobs, incomes, or tax revenues for a community associated with any of these things.

http://www.aier.org/ejw/archive/doc_view/3626-ejw-200809?tmpl=component&format=raw

“…statistical analyses of the impacts of sports teams on urban economies. A study by Hudson (1999) investigated the impact of sports teams on employment growth and found that the presence of professional sports teams had no statistically significant effect. A similarly detailed study of 37 metropolitan areas by Coates and Humphries (1999) concluded that there is no evidence that sports facilities and sports teams increase the rate of real per capita income and, in fact, may actually generate a negative impact on real income per capita.”

http://www.arroyoseco.org/671_chapin-web.pdf

Yay! Go agenda!

Quote from: ac on November 13, 2009, 02:22:18 PM
Yay! Go agenda!

That's supposed to be a refutation? 

And we wonder why this city has such a hard time of rising above it's redneck roots.

I'm not trying to refute it;  I personally am for keeping any business or entertainment entity that we currently have in the city, regardless of whether there's an irrefutable, tangible benefit.  Why?  Because I like having them here.  It makes me feel like I live in a real city, despite all the other crap that goes on here.

I'm pretty far from a redneck, but feel free to toss around any slurs you see fit.

So I'm curious, what is it that you don't like about the Jaguars that makes you less likely to give them slack then, say, the Suns, the more-empty-than-not Arena, the Symphony, or other entertainment entities that receive or benefit from public dollars?

Well enough of the forum hijack by a person who doesn't think the Jaguars have a positive impact on the community.  I think that is entirely bogus, but pretty much besides the point.  The lack of fan support for the Jaguars makes me very angry.  I think the analogy to the pet was a fantastic analogy.  The additional part to it is the "someone else will take care of it" aspect to it.  Thousands of the people who were so happy about getting the team never thought that they would have to support the team.  It was a hometown team that would always be on television and someone else would go to the stadium and pay money so that it is broadcast for free on television.  Sure they'd buy a hat and maybe go to a game once in a blue moon, but other than that, actually purchasing tickets was the duty of the neighbor, not me.

If we could get people to just go to one game a year, we would be okay.  By my math, there's 1.3 million in the metro area.  Assume that 40% of them are too old, too young or too poor to go to a game.  That still leaves 780,000 people just in our immediate metro area.. forget people who live in Daytona, Brunswick, Lake City, etc.

8 home games, 67k capacity =  536,000 tickets.  

If you know someone who claims to like the Jaguars but never goes to a game... spread the message.. just go to ONE GAME A YEAR.  If we can convince enough people to do this it will make a huge difference.

It shouldn't take a lot of hard statistical evidence to substantiate the idea that Jacksonville will be scarred terribly if the Jaguars were lost.  It creates a national perception that the city tried to become major league and failed at it, even without considering a bizarre number of sportswriters who seemingly have been waiting to do an end-zone dance on the corpse of Jacksonville as a pro sports city since the day they won the expansion derby.  That has ramifications that go far beyond sports.  It will become the single biggest thing Jacksonville is known for nationally.  It will foster a perception that Jacksonville is no longer a growing market and a good place to live and work.  It will substantially damage the city's collective psyche and very likely drive a number of people to live elsewhere.

Oh, and good luck finding another Wayne Weaver to fund arts and cultural and historical institutions in the city to the extent that he has.

Regardless of whether you care about football at all, rooting for the Jaguars to move, or being apathetic about the idea, on the grounds that it wouldn't hurt the city or would actually benefit the city (there's a certain element that seem to think the Jaguars' existence somehow holds back education or arts funding), is senseless.

How can somebody pretend there is no economic impact when we have a 53 man roster (not including practice squad, players on IR, coaches, training staff) with yearly salaries of 500k+. Most every player lives in Jacksonville year round as well and quite a few remain in town after retirement. That is a lot of money going back into the community.

Quote from: copperfiend on November 13, 2009, 03:17:06 PM
How can somebody pretend there is no economic impact when we have a 53 man roster (not including practice squad, players on IR, coaches, training staff) with yearly salaries of 500k+. Most every players lives in Jacksonville year round as well and quite a few remain in town after retirement. That is a lot of money going back into the community.

And many of those retired players/coaches have been both vocal in their advocacy of Jacksonville and charitably inclined within the community.

Quote from: Wacca Pilatka on November 13, 2009, 03:06:01 PM
Regardless of whether you care about football at all, rooting for the Jaguars to move, or being apathetic about the idea, on the grounds that it wouldn't hurt the city or would actually benefit the city (there's a certain element that seem to think the Jaguars' existence somehow holds back education or arts funding), is senseless.

Don't forget those who claim we had no crime in this city prior to the Jaguars moving in.  That's my favorite.

Quote from: finehoe on November 13, 2009, 02:19:56 PM
I don't think wanting to know the facts about something demonstates that one is set in their ways.

While we’re waiting for the T-U reporter to get back to us, let me offer the following for your reading pleasure:

“Unlike manufacturing plants or warehouses, professional sports teams generate non-financial benefits like civic pride and world-class city status for their host communities. Yet these benefits don't seem to justify the public spending needed to build a 21st century stadium. Instead, proponents justify those subsidies with claims of economic benefits the surrounding community will collect. According to these claims, a new facility will create thousands of new jobs, generate millions of dollars of new income for residents and add additional millions of dollars to state and local coffers.

The decision facing local officials appears to be a "no-brainer:" For the bargain price of $500 million to $2 billion, the city keeps its beloved sports franchise, gets a shiny new facility and a powerhouse engine of local economic development.

Unfortunately, economic research consistently finds no evidence supporting these claims.? My own research, published in peer-reviewed academic journals, and based on past economic performance of all U.S. cities with a professional football, basketball or baseball franchise since 1969, concludes that professional sports teams and facilities increased employment and earnings in only one small sector of the economy -- the recreation and amusement industry. It actually reduced earnings and employment in related industries like hotels, bars and restaurants.

Overall, professional sports reduced real per-capita income in their metropolitan areas by about $40 per year.”


http://www.businessjournalism.org/pages/biz/2005/06/finding_the_bottom_line_for_sp/

The large and growing peer-reviewed economics literature on the economic impacts of stadiums, arenas, sports franchises, and sport megaevents has consistently found no substantial evidence of increased jobs, incomes, or tax revenues for a community associated with any of these things.

http://www.aier.org/ejw/archive/doc_view/3626-ejw-200809?tmpl=component&format=raw

“…statistical analyses of the impacts of sports teams on urban economies. A study by Hudson (1999) investigated the impact of sports teams on employment growth and found that the presence of professional sports teams had no statistically significant effect. A similarly detailed study of 37 metropolitan areas by Coates and Humphries (1999) concluded that there is no evidence that sports facilities and sports teams increase the rate of real per capita income and, in fact, may actually generate a negative impact on real income per capita.”

http://www.arroyoseco.org/671_chapin-web.pdf

First of all show me data proving the city paid $500  million - $2 billion to acquire the team.

QuoteTotal construction time was under 20 months and total cost was $134 million â€" $60 million of which was provided by the city of Jacksonville.

Second there is no data or evidence proving a major sports team has a negative economic local impact in the articles you posted.

Saying statistical evidence was compiled through studies is just the same as the mayor claiming the figure he came up with through local studies lol

Its funny, everyone talks about the city, but NFL teams are a metro/regional interest.

Green Bay is all of Wisconsin.
The Jets/Giants are NYC and New Jersey.
Tennessee is all of Tennessee, same with Carolina being both North and South Carolina.

The Jags have had terrible marketing, even the NFL has finally sent marketing people to help Wayne and company.
Do you see any ads in Orlando? Daytona? Gainesville? Lake City? Tallahassee? Valdosta? Savannah?

Quote from: ac on November 13, 2009, 02:48:01 PM
So I'm curious, what is it that you don't like about the Jaguars that makes you less likely to give them slack then, say, the Suns, the more-empty-than-not Arena, the Symphony, or other entertainment entities that receive or benefit from public dollars?

First, I am a fan of the Jags and what Wayne Weaver has done for the community.  That said, the NFL is business-like and we should be too. We've discussed this before.  This comes down to a cost-benefit analysis.

The reason the Jags get more scrutiny is because the Jags "cost" more to the community with their stadium and game day subsidies and needed revenue than all the other items mentioned (not that they shouldn't be scrutinized continuously as well) combined.  As such, they get a bigger share of the limelight.

It's well established that based on tangible benefits (such as economic impact) alone, sports teams rarely, if ever, pay back on taxpayer investments.  

Sports teams are not a panacea for the ills of our society.  Their biggest benefit is the intangible factors regarding psyche, pride, promotional value, etc.  It comes down to how much to pay for the intangibles?  Is it like the Mastercard commercial, "priceless", or is there a community investment limit, and what should that limit be?

Honest people can disagree.  "Talk amongst yourselves"!

Quote from: jandar on November 13, 2009, 03:22:13 PM
Its funny, everyone talks about the city, but NFL teams are a metro/regional interest.

Green Bay is all of Wisconsin.
The Jets/Giants are NYC and New Jersey.
Tennessee is all of Tennessee, same with Carolina being both North and South Carolina.

The Jags have had terrible marketing, even the NFL has finally sent marketing people to help Wayne and company.
Do you see any ads in Orlando? Daytona? Gainesville? Lake City? Tallahassee? Valdosta? Savannah?

The only advertising you see in these markets is for the Bucs and Dolphins!!!!

Quote from: 77danj7 on November 13, 2009, 03:25:00 PM

The only advertising you see in these markets is for the Bucs and Dolphins!!!!

Yet these cities are considered secondary markets to Jacksonville.

So I'm curious, what is it that you don't like about the Jaguars that makes you less likely to give them slack then, say, the Suns, the more-empty-than-not Arena, the Symphony, or other entertainment entities that receive or benefit from public dollars?

It's not specific to the Jaguars, but that is the subject of this thread.  None of the other things you mention are more deserving, but I suspect the amount that any of them receives pales in comparison to the amount of time and effort devoted to the NFL.  I can't imagine a thirty-plus year campaign to, say, bring an Opera company to Jacksonville.

And "ac" I apologize if you thought I was calling you a redneck.  That wasn't my intention, although in re-reading my post, it does sort of come across that way.

Let me clarify something:  I am neither for nor against the Jaguars.  If the people of this city want to support an NFL team, more power to them.  What I take issue with is the reckless recitation of the "fact" that they are some mighty development engine that has somehow elevated Jacksonville to a level just below New York, London, or Paris (hyperbole on my part, please no posts saying "no one mentioned those cities").  They are nothing of the kind.  No football team is.  I think it is quite telling that no one has been able to provide hard data on the true economic impact of having the team, yet everyone "knows" they contribute oh so much.  "ac" comes closest to the truth when he says "It makes me feel like I live in a real city".  If that is a good enough reason for you, I think that is great.  But to have the mayor say (and the news media repeat without checking, and the posters on this forum believe) they have a $200 million dollar impact (a year? since they've been here? what?) without any hard evidence is not the way concerned citizens should make economic development decisions.

Quote from: stjr on November 13, 2009, 03:23:04 PM

Quote from: ac on November 13, 2009, 02:48:01 PM
So I'm curious, what is it that you don't like about the Jaguars that makes you less likely to give them slack then, say, the Suns, the more-empty-than-not Arena, the Symphony, or other entertainment entities that receive or benefit from public dollars?

First, I am a fan of the Jags and what Wayne Weaver has done for the community.  That said, the NFL is business-like and we should be too. We've discussed this before.  This comes down to a cost-benefit analysis.

The reason the Jags get more scrutiny is because the Jags "cost" more to the community with their stadium and game day subsidies and needed revenue than all the other items mentioned (not that they shouldn't be scrutinized continuously as well) combined.  As such, they get a bigger share of the limelight.

It's well established that based on tangible benefits (such as economic impact) alone, sports teams rarely, if ever, pay back on taxpayer investments.  

Sports teams are not a panacea for the ills of our society.  Their biggest benefit is the intangible factors regarding psyche, pride, promotional value, etc.  It comes down to how much to pay for the intangibles?  Is it like the Mastercard commercial, "priceless", or is there a community investment limit, and what should that limit be?

Honest people can disagree.  "Talk amongst yourselves"!

I can understand that perspective, but the horse is already out of the barn.  If we run them off, we still have a stadium to pay off and maintain, and without a year-round tenant.  We still have to keep it up to current standards in order to keep the remaining 2-3 events hosted there viable.

If we're going to make unemotional, cost-benefit analysis of one thing our city pays for, then we have to do it for all.  Many things nearer and dearer to the majority of us would have to go by the wayside as well.  Many things we still need would have even less of a snowball's chance of getting off the ground. Would we as readily accept elimination of those things?  I wouldn't.

Personally, I am willing to keep them all as long as we can.  I've stated repeatedly my opinion, which is that if our peer cities in the league can do it without detriment to city services and quality of life, so can we.   To do that, it might require a little more than squealing like stuck pigs when the city finally has no choice but to bring us out of the bargain basement in taxes.

Are the Jaguars a cure for the ills of Jacksonville?  Of course not.  But they're a far cry from being the cause.  The issues we have now are the same we had before they were here, and they would still be here if the team were not.

Quote from: finehoe on November 13, 2009, 03:35:16 PM

It's not specific to the Jaguars, but that is the subject of this thread.  None of the other things you mention are more deserving, but I suspect the amount that any of them receives pales in comparison to the amount of time and effort devoted to the NFL.  I can't imagine a thirty-plus year campaign to, say, bring an Opera company to Jacksonville.

And "ac" I apologize if you thought I was calling you a redneck.  That wasn't my intention, although in re-reading my post, it does sort of come across that way.

Let me clarify something:  I am neither for nor against the Jaguars.  If the people of this city want to support an NFL team, more power to them.  What I take issue with is the reckless recitation of the "fact" that they are some mighty development engine that has somehow elevated Jacksonville to a level just below New York, London, or Paris (hyperbole on my part, please no posts saying "no one mentioned those cities").  They are nothing of the kind.  No football team is.  I think it is quite telling that no one has been able to provide hard data on the true economic impact of having the team, yet everyone "knows" they contribute oh so much.  "ac" comes closest to the truth when he says "It makes me feel like I live in a real city".  If that is a good enough reason for you, I think that is great.  But to have the mayor say (and the news media repeat without checking, and the posters on this forum believe) they have a $200 million dollar impact (a year? since they've been here? what?) without any hard evidence is not the way concerned citizens should make economic development decisions.

Finehoe, I understand what you are saying, but I think it's indisputable that the Jaguars' existence vastly elevated Jacksonville's national image, and that their departure would be severely detrimental.  I hate to argue from the negative rather than the positive, but the image blow from losing the Jaguars would have ramifications on Jacksonville's ability to attract and retain talented individuals as well as businesses.  Losing the team creates a national perception of the city as being unable to compete, just as gaining the team enhanced its reputation as a city on the rise. 

Yes, there are many other factors that contribute to a city's quality of life that are more important (and I say this as someone who loves football), but professional sports has a major impact on how a city is perceived, particularly a smaller-market one.  I'm an outsider; I live in Virginia, have never lived in Jacksonville, but have always loved Jacksonville.  When someone finds out about my love for Jacksonville who has never been there, they know the city first and foremost as the home of the Jaguars.  Scarcely anyone knows about the city's history or culture or architecture (though they'll find out quickly when hanging around me for a while); many don't know where it's situated within Florida or even that it has beaches.  Sometimes there's awareness that it's on a river.  My point is, the Jaguars are more strongly identified with Jacksonville than anything else about the city is.  And if we lose the Jaguars, the city becomes known more than anything as the place that tried to be major league and couldn't succeed.

I think most of us Jaguar fans here are sensitive to some of the implications in your comments, hence the references to agendas et al., because there are a number of people in Jacksonville who think the city subsidizes the team at the expense of other essential services or quality of life improvements.  I don't think that's accurate, and I don't think the city's investment in the team is anywhere near as much as many other cities have invested or will invest in maintaining or attracting their own teams. 

That, and your use of the term redneck, regardless of whether it is in reference to a specific poster, has obvious connotations that people who stand up for the football team are somehow intellectually inferior or ignorant.  You reinforce that with the reference to the opera.  Since when does supporting the Jaguars and believing fervently in their importance to the city constitute a lack of intellectual capacity or a redneck mindset?  Why does patronizing sports and the arts have to be mutually exclusive?  The Weavers, for one, are enormous supporters of culture and education and historic preservation in Jacksonville.  So are many Jaguar fans.  I'm a Jaguar fan and season ticket holder, but I'm a member of the Jacksonville Historical Society and Friends of the Florida Theatre too.  Throw "redneck" or the opera comment out there and you come off as looking down your nose at football fans and painting them all with the same brush.  (Presumably a red one.)

Wakka- To be fair to finehoe, I referenced the Symphony in relation to city expenditures that outweigh the economic return.  The response was that finehoe felt the city wouldn't chase an opera company, for example, as ardently as the Jaguars.  I don't necessarily agree with that, but I understand the sentiment.

Personally, I think the real issue in the Opera example is that there's not a private group motivated enough to lobby for and chase it, while there was one for pro football.  The city is somehow expected to chase the Opera spontaneously; while the groups that pursued the NFL, while working with and receiving blessing and a facilities commitment from the City, were groups of private businesspeople.  Find a group dedicated and well-heeled enough to start up an Opera company in JAX, and it can be done.

Neither reference (Symphony/Opera) was intended to be derogatory.  finehoe is on his/her own with the redneck thing, though.

First of all show me data proving the city paid $500 million - $2 billion to acquire the team.

First, don’t be an idiot.  No one said, or implied, that those numbers specifically referred to Jacksonville or the Jaguars. 

Second there is no data or evidence proving a major sports team has a negative economic local impact in the articles you posted.

Oh no?  What do you think “Overall, professional sports reduced real per-capita income in their metropolitan areas by about $40 per year.” or “concluded that there is no evidence that sports facilities and sports teams increase the rate of real per capita income and, in fact, may actually generate a negative impact on real income per capita” means?  If you think a reduction in income doesn’t have a negative economic impact, I suggest Monday morning you go ask your boss to reduce yours.  Besides, having a negative economic impact isn’t the same as not have a positive economic impact.

Saying statistical evidence was compiled through studies is just the same as the mayor claiming the figure he came up with through local studies

I don’t even know what you’re trying to say here, but the point is, the mayor didn’t cite any “local studies”.  He just threw that number out.  And that is the issue I have.  Where does this figure come from?

Finehoe, from what I've heard via local radio (Cole Pepper, Sam Kouvaris), and could have sworn there was an article that cited source, despite lack of documentation (which for some reason the T-U's abysmal search feature won't help me find and link to), the figure apparently was given to Peyton by the CoC.

Quote from: ac on November 13, 2009, 04:05:33 PM
finehoe is on his/her own with the redneck thing, though.

Responding to my posting of academic studies backing up my point with a trite "Yay! An agenda" sounded to me like a dismissive "argument" an uneducated buffoon would make (ie a redneck), not someone who was actually trying to make a legitimate point.  I'm glad the later postings proved me wrong.

Quote from: ac on November 13, 2009, 04:34:25 PM
Finehoe, from what I've heard via local radio, and could have sworn there was an article that cited source, despite lack of documentation (which for some reason the T-U's abysmal search feature won't help me find and link to), the figure apparently was given to Peyton by the CoC.

I think there was such an article in the Daily Record or the Jax Business Journal?

Quotedon’t even know what you’re trying to say here, but the point is, the mayor didn’t cite any “local studies”.  He just threw that number out.  And that is the issue I have.  Where does this figure come from?

Show me statistics proving that the a major sports team negatively impact's the local economy here in Jacksonville.

Quoteh no?  What do you think “Overall, professional sports reduced real per-capita income in their metropolitan areas by about $40 per year.” or “concluded that there is no evidence that sports facilities and sports teams increase the rate of real per capita income and, in fact, may actually generate a negative impact on real income per capita” means?

This quote holds no more water than what was was said by the Mayor. This report has nothing to do with Jacksonville and foremost does not outline any specific data lol

Wakka- I don't think it explained where he got the number from though.  I linked one JBJ article earlier that didn't.

Quote from: Wacca Pilatka on November 13, 2009, 03:57:49 PM
...the image blow from losing the Jaguars would have ramifications on Jacksonville's ability to attract and retain talented individuals as well as businesses.  Losing the team creates a national perception of the city as being unable to compete, just as gaining the team enhanced its reputation as a city on the rise. 

I agree with this 100%

Quote from: Wacca Pilatka on November 13, 2009, 03:57:49 PM
Throw "redneck" or the opera comment out there and you come off as looking down your nose at football fans and painting them all with the same brush.  (Presumably a red one.)

You are right, and that wasn't my intention. (BTW, I have never been to an opera.)

Quote from: finehoe on November 13, 2009, 04:53:46 PM

Quote from: Wacca Pilatka on November 13, 2009, 03:57:49 PM
...the image blow from losing the Jaguars would have ramifications on Jacksonville's ability to attract and retain talented individuals as well as businesses.  Losing the team creates a national perception of the city as being unable to compete, just as gaining the team enhanced its reputation as a city on the rise. 

I agree with this 100%

Quote from: Wacca Pilatka on November 13, 2009, 03:57:49 PM
Throw "redneck" or the opera comment out there and you come off as looking down your nose at football fans and painting them all with the same brush.  (Presumably a red one.)

You are right, and that wasn't my intention. (BTW, I have never been to an opera.)

I apologize to you for overreacting.  Thank you for your passion for Jacksonville.  (I do all I can from long distance...)

Quote from: ac on November 13, 2009, 04:41:39 PM
Wakka- I don't think it explained where he got the number from though.

Unsubstantiated numbers are standard operating procedure.  Round up the usual suspects. Maybe, start with JTA.  They make up customized numbers all the time.  Multiple books, funky accounting, conflict of interests.  No problem. Then there was the time the mayor overstated the height of the courthouse after looking at the project for his entire term in office.  No telling how many made up numbers fly through the City council.  The "experts" deliver. "Who ya' gonna believe?"  Ghostbusters? :D

Quote from: ac on November 13, 2009, 11:16:34 AM

Quote from: willydenn on November 13, 2009, 10:42:01 AM
They also have to do something about their hideous uniforms!  The dumped the only good one they had...the all black ones.  Maybe they could do a helmet similar to the Bengals, but obviously use Jaguar spots instead of tiger stripes?

The T-U had an artist do a concept uniform that had spots on a gold helmet, I think back in 2002 or 2003.  It wasn't pretty.  I've been hunting for an image of it, but can't find it.

Edit:  Here it is.




(http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/77051/sptpromo_uglyjags1_815.jpg)
Still want that helmet?

Oh, and the current uniforms are fine.

Yikes!  That is pretty bad!  The current uni's do suck though...sorry.

Ooh...I remember them proposing that...that is so hideous!

I was one of those 50,000 maniacs in the Gator Bowl when Bob Irsay and Jake Godbold landed in a helicopter on the field.  I remember sending in a check for season tickets in the end zone and getting my money refunded minus a handling fee.  If I remember right we also were used by the Cardinals and the Oilers before they moved.

There are two local professional opera companies that have been struggling to get off the ground for some time: Opera Jax and the Jacksonville Lyric Opera. And there have been attempts, in one form or another, to establish a professional group for decades. Of course, theres a better chance of the Jags winning back-to-back Super Bowls than the genre succeeding in NEFL, but just sayin, people are trying...

Back to your regularly-scheduled programming already in progress.

Quote from: urbanlibertarian on November 13, 2009, 06:31:10 PM
I was one of those 50,000 maniacs in the Gator Bowl when Bob Irsay and Jake Godbold landed in a helicopter on the field.  I remember sending in a check for season tickets in the end zone and getting my money refunded minus a handling fee.  If I remember right we also were used by the Cardinals and the Oilers before they moved.

And the Saints, and the Falcons.

Three words... Green Bay Packers.  Do you want an NFL franchise or not?  I always hear about the history bah blah... but in the twenties or thirties they were just another team trying to survive.  The community decided that this was important and supported it through taxes and fundraising.  Yep... they are unique today... but they would not be here today unless the citizens of the small city of Green Bay committed to their survival.

So what is it Jacksonville?  You are next in line as smallest.  Are you gonna step up and own the team?  Or are ya gonna let L.A. or some other more glamourous place have the team.  It is your choice... pure and simple.

QuoteThe Green Bay Packers were founded on August 14, 1919 by Curly Lambeau and George Whitney Calhoun.[1] Lambeau solicited funds for uniforms from his employer, the Indian Packing Company. He was given $500 for uniforms and equipment, on the condition that the team be named for its sponsor. Today, "Green Bay Packers" is the oldest team name still in use in the NFL.

The Packers became a professional franchise when they joined the newly formed American Professional Football Association on August 27, 1921. However, financial troubles plagued the team and the franchise had to be forfeited at the end of the season. Curly Lambeau found new backers the next year and regained the franchise for $250. Further troubles threatened to add more debt to the team, but local businessmen, known as the "Hungry Five," got behind the team and formed the Green Bay Football Corporation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Green_Bay_Packers

Steve, so you actually DO write posts?! Seriously, this is great and I'm looking forward to the others in the series. I have not taken the time to read through all the comments so if my remark is repetitive ... GOOD because it's important.

I suspect there were people who left comments because they don't value what the Jaguars offer to this city. I also suspect there were those who commented that they love this team and could not imagine Jacksonville without the Jaguars. To the latter group:

Please buy tickets. Buy them, because if you don't there is a good chance we will lose this team.

Finally I would like to wrap up my comment and let everyone know Urban Jacksonville is also publishing a new weekly column on the Jaguars. You can check out the first two weeks worth here. Go Jags!

Hey Jaguars Fans: This is Rebuilding!
http://www.urbanjacksonville.info/2009/11/09/hey-jaguars-fans-this-is-rebuilding/

Defense is the Key to Any Successful Hunt
http://www.urbanjacksonville.info/2009/11/11/defense-is-the-key-to-any-successful-hunt/

QuoteSPORTS PEOPLE; Jacksonville Scouted
Published: Thursday, October 15, 1987

Bud Adams, the owner of the Houston Oilers, paid a visit yesterday with his wife, Nancy, to Jacksonville, Fla., a city that is attempting to woo the Oilers away from their home in the Astrodome. The civic leaders of Jacksonville, the home of the Gator Bowl, gave the Adamses a tour of the city, and the main topic of conversation was a $125.8 million offer from the Jacksonville business community to Adams to move his team. ''It's a very attractive package,'' said Adams. ''That's why I'm over here today. I want to take a good look at your city.''

http://www.nytimes.com/1987/10/15/sports/sports-people-jacksonville-scouted.html

QuotePRO FOOTBALL; N.F.L. Expansion Surprise: Jacksonville Jaguars
By FRANK LITSKY,
Published: Wednesday, December 1, 1993

In a totally unexpected move, the National Football League awarded an expansion franchise today to Jacksonville, Fla., a city that only last summer dropped out of the bidding and as recently as a month ago was considered a long shot behind St. Louis and Baltimore.

The new team, named the Jaguars, and Charlotte's Carolina Panthers, voted in five weeks ago, will begin play in 1995 as the N.F.L.'s 29th and 30th teams.

Full Article:
http://www.nytimes.com/1993/12/01/sports/pro-football-nfl-expansion-surprise-jacksonville-jaguars.html

Lunican, nice re-read.  Interesting to consider where all the parties mentioned are today.  Baltimore and St. Louis finally got their teams.  So did Cleveland and Houston.  LA and Memphis are still waiting.

The citizens will not save the Jags, it will be the same who bought the tickets, small businesses, and the corporations. They are the ones who can afford the seats year in and year out. I'd consider some seats now for a 5-4 team winning on the road. I plan to be at the Buffalo game, to see the Jags go 6-4. I hope it gets more small businesses to buy the seats, just like they did in 1995.

I remember going to the Gator Bowl to watch an NFL game once, it was either the late 80's or very early 90's, and I wanna say it was the Los Angeles Rams.. am I correct?

Buy Tickets if you can.

There should be 55k + in the stadium this week for the Bills. No excuses! We are in the playoff hunt!

i agree! I will be there. GO Jags!

Will there be any Gator fans in attendance  ;)

Quote from: tufsu1 on November 16, 2009, 10:08:13 AM
Will there be any Gator fans in attendance  ;)

Nah, they are probably going to attend the guaranteed win against FAU.

^^FIU.....I believe. Maybe some of them will show up Sunday!

I will be at the Jag game as usual. Does any one know of Jax people driving to G-ville attending gator games?

Driving down from Virginia to go to the game this weekend.  Thankfully this time we don't have to leave immediately after the game and drive back to Virginia.  Last game (StL) we had to do that so, of course, it went into OT.

No OT this week! MJD down their throats.  Buffalo is very weak against the run.  We can't play down to the level of our competition.  Come out 1st half like we did yesterday and this one will be a laugher by halftime.

No OT and no TO.

I have season tix for both Gators (since Coach Pell) and Jags (since forever).  I will be at both games this weekend.

I find this entire discussion to be sad and stupid.  People here think there are a "major league" city because they have a football team (just like Detroit!).  But it hasn't prevented Jacksonville from having 10% unemployment, stagnant crime rates, etc. (just like Detroit!)   There are plenty of "minor league cities" with much healthier economies - like, say, Des Moines (6% unemployment!)

For more data see http://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/metro.pdf

Yeah, way to be negative.

Quote from: lewyn on November 28, 2009, 08:08:04 PM
I find this entire discussion to be sad and stupid.  People here think there are a "major league" city because they have a football team (just like Detroit!).  But it hasn't prevented Jacksonville from having 10% unemployment, stagnant crime rates, etc. (just like Detroit!)   There are plenty of "minor league cities" with much healthier economies - like, say, Des Moines (6% unemployment!)

Both arguments (football and unemplyment) are stupid.

Our unemplyment has more to do with the overall Florida economy than anything Jax. has done...and its likely that Jax. will recover before th rest of the state.

As for football, there is no question that having an NFL team provides the city more national exposure....whether that is good or bad can be debated.

Lewyn has a point. Sports is entertainment in the lives of some of our citizens and a source of publicity and pride for the city, but it is not a real generator of solutions for the ills and concerns facing everyday citizens.

The article below from the Tampa Tribune is part of what disturbs some about the emphasis on sports.  Note the comments that "boosters" will contribute hundreds of thousands or even millions to high school football programs.  Meanwhile our educational system in this state is considered one of the most, if not the most, underfunded educational systems in the country.

UF may be at the top currently in football and basketball, but, by some accounts, its educational infrastructure is being  compromised by severe financial stresses.  Is this the school we want UF and our other state educational institutions to be?  Could UF get its sports fans to match every dollar they spend supporting athletics there with an equal dollar supporting their educational programs?

Why are people willing to pour their dollars into sports at the high school, college, and pro levels, and not be equally committed to the greatest impact on our quality of life, education (which, ironically, sports is supposed to be a mere adjunct to, not the centerpiece)?  Why do parents have to sue the state legislature to fund education appropriately in this state in accordance with the state constitution? How many of those that buy hundreds of dollars in sports tickets also balked at paying an extra hundred dollars or so in property taxes this year to support education, police, fire, and urgent needs of the community?

The issue being framed is not one of saying not to support sports, but rather why is there such passion to prioritize sports while not exhibiting the same or greater enthusiasm to prioritize more important needs in our community.
 

QuoteAt Florida schools, football makes business sense

By NICK WILLIAMS

nwilliams@tampatrib.com
Tom Paloumpis has been the boys swimming coach at Hillsborough High School for 15 years. He takes pride in the program's winning tradition.

He said he understands that football is the most popular high school sport in Florida, but he always felt other sports, such as swimming, were respected.

But this year, the state athletic association, in an effort to help school districts in a budget crisis, told programs such as his they were expendable because they didn't make money.

In April, the Florida High School Athletic Association board of directors voted to cut the schedules of every varsity sport, except football, by 20 percent and all nonvarsity sports, including football, by 40 percent. The swim season, for example, was shortened to 11 meets from 13. Baseball, softball and basketball were cut to 20 games instead of 25.

Football was spared because it is the primary moneymaker for most school districts.

The move sparked protests, as parents and coaches pointed to the benefits of kids playing sports that extend beyond the contests themselves.

In July, the board rescinded its decision, reinstating the contests it had cut.

The decision to spare football led to a lawsuit filed in June by Florida's Parents for Athletic Equity, which viewed the vote as a violation of federal gender equity laws, or Title IX.

Jacksonville-based lawyer and former Olympic swimmer Nancy Hogshead-Makar, who represented the plaintiffs, said 29 percent of boys were exempt from the game cuts, and only 5 percent of girls were exempt.

The lawsuit was settled out of court last month.

As part of the settlement, the FHSAA agreed to comply with all state and federal nondiscrimination laws and policies. The FHSAA also must not make a change in the number of contests allowed in a season that would result in treating one gender differently and must provide training about federal gender equity laws at the FHSAA Representative Assembly and Compliance Seminar for three years.

The plaintiffs waived all claims for monetary damages, but the FHSAA must pay their attorney's fees and legal costs: $41,200.

"It is unfortunate that the situation occurred while trying to help our member schools with the financial crisis they are facing, which inadvertently created an unintentional disparity to our student-athletes," FHSAA Executive Director Roger Dearing said in a news release after the settlement. "We will continue to focus on providing excellent academic and athletic opportunities for the girls and boys in the state of Florida."

"There is no exception under gender equity law for football or money-making," Hogshead-Makar, a Gainesville High graduate, said before the lawsuit.

"I grew up thinking boys and girls were treated equally."

Football is king

It's hard to argue with the bottom line: Prep football brings in the majority of high school sports revenue in Florida and helps fund all sports.

•In Pasco County, football accounted for $359,229 of the $640,858 generated by all sports programs at the 11 high schools. At Pasco High, football took in $89,276 of the school's $118,833 in gate receipts in the 2008-09 school year.

"We make $6,000 for one (football home) game. Is that worth taking away?" asked Pasco athletic director Jim Ward. "Is that good business?"

•In Hillsborough County, the district's 25 varsity football teams each averaged $6,000 in revenue per game last year, Hillsborough County athletic director Lanness Robinson said.

•In Pinellas County, the athletics budget last year was about $1.4 million. High school varsity football generated nearly one-third of that, with $456,000 coming from gate receipts, said Nick Grasso, executive director of athletics and extracurricular activities.

"Football is huge," Grasso said. "The other sports lose money. That's the bottom line."

Financial statements across the state tell a similar story.

The FHSAA took in almost $1 million last year, with about $370,000 coming from varsity football. Football accounted for 40 percent of state tournament revenue for all sports, said spokeswoman Cristina Alvarez.

Winning teams bring in even more money, Grasso said.

Last season, 21 area public school teams reached the playoffs. Pasco High, Largo High and Plant High reached the state tournament. Plant won the Class 4A state title, its second in three years. On Friday, six public school teams from Hillsborough and Pinellas advanced to the regional championship rounds of the state playoffs.

"Anytime you win, you're going to sell more tickets," Grasso said. "The more successful programs, the better financially."

Program costs

Hogshead-Makar disputes the numbers.

"It's a cultural myth," Hogshead-Makar said. Football "doesn't make money. It's very expensive to run. The perception is it makes money because the districts absorb most of the costs."

The average cost of a helmet at Pasco High is $160, Ward said. Add to that shoulder pads at $80 and jerseys at $140. The average cost per football player comes to about $400. Officials cost about $420 per game, Ward said. The school must also pay for painting the field and several deputies for security.

Compare that with softball. The average cost of a helmet is $20, jerseys are $140 and officials are paid about $120 per game. The majority of softball and baseball players supply their own gear, Ward said.

Football "has equipment needs swimming doesn't," Paloumpis said. "Swimmers don't wear pads in the pool. We don't cost much. We just need to rent a pool during the season."

Though there are costs associated with football programs that other sports don't have, school officials point to the bottom line - and boosters.

The perception that football is the favored sport because it makes the most money is misunderstood.

"We're all about family here" at Pasco, he said. People "don't know what football boosters pay for. They say, 'Well football has this and this,' but where did the money come from?"

For example, in 2006 the Armwood football program and booster club began raising money for a $1.2 million field house that opened last summer. The team raised $600,000.

"Football is a revenue-generating sport," Robinson said. "Football is a pastime for people in Florida and football is the draw."

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2009/nov/29/na-at-florida-schools-football-makes-business-sens/sports/

Stephen,

I didn't miss the point at all....I agree that having an NFL team does not a major market make...but unemployment statistics don't mean much either.

You'll note that Mr. Lewyn used the word "stupid" in his post...I just repeated its use.

BTW, I have met Mr. Lewyn several times and am well aware of his credentials.

Attorneys and professors most assuredly do not have a corner on the market regarding this subject... His characterization of this thread as...

QuoteI find this entire discussion to be sad and stupid.

Is also quite sad and stupid...

Football is entertainment.  It is the most popular sport in America and countless hours of television programming each week provides us with free exposure and name recognition.  That is its business value.  Football is NOT a solution to social problems.  The individual participants often utilize their (large) paychecks to fund social foundations, but the game itself is not about that.  It is about fun.  And it helps to build pride in one's city, something that we sorely lack. 

It is still (for the moment) a free country and people can spend their money as they see fit. This thread is about the entertainment of professional football, not about social causes.  That is not sad, or stupid, it's just sports.

QuoteOur unemplyment has more to do with the overall Florida economy than anything Jax. has done...and its likely that Jax. will recover before th rest of the state.

Tufsu1 - I agree with you. Real Estate plunged Florida into this mess, and its not fair to say that the same happened to Des Moines, and really, who goes to Iowa to retire? Definately an apples to oranges comparison.

(http://static3.businessinsider.com/image/579a2d164321f16c018bb95a-1500/blake%20bortles.jpg)