The CARE system is a topic I have had enough experience with that I think I can bring some much needed clarity to the discussion.
Does SPAR conduct mass CARE complaint campaigns against targeted properties? Not to my knowledge, and I ought to know. As an active part of SPAR's Block Captains for years I led an effort to use the CARE system on a much larger scale. We often discussed the CARE system in Block Captins meetings, and I suspect I have placed more complaints than anyone in Jax. I still use it, and encourage my neighbors to do the same.
The majority of issues I place in CARE call for the city to take action, not the property owner. Examples: requests to pick up missed garbage and tires, repair sidewalks, remove dead trees, abandoned cars, etc.
We certainly do use it to try to get delinquent property owners to clean to their act. It can be effective, but it can also fail, for example if the property owner can't be located, or if he ignores to threat of escalating fines. I never had the ability or inclination to get groups of neighbors to file a complaint on the same property, let alone hundreds. Even if I could, I don't think that multiple complaints bring much more attention that a single one. Each must be evaluated by the city, and judged on its merits wrt city code.
As to speaking with neighbors, block captains do that too. I devised a postcard that we have sent to many residents and owners. Our objective with these is primarily educational, i.e. politely reminding residents to put garbage in containers, and call in waste tires.
Is it possible to indicate who is placing the CARE issue? Yes, it certainly is. Block Captains had no policy as to submitting anonymously or not, but I always include my name, and I think most of us do.
Does CARE work? Not perfectly, but pretty well. I am confident that Block Captains' efforts have led to hundreds or tires being removed, tons of garbage removed, dozens (hundreds?) of overgrown lots mown, lots of sidewalks repaired, hundreds of streetlights repaired (strictly speaking, not via CARE) and many abandoned cars removed.
CARE complaint can and have helped get major heat brought to bear on delinquent property owners and slumlords. They can, via due process, ultimately lead to big fines. See for example: http://www.duvalclerk.com/oncoreweb/showdetails.aspx?id=8568291&rn=84&pi=5&ref=search .
So I can imagine that irresponsible property owners and slumlords don't care for CARE, and wish SPAR and Springfielders wouldn't use it, but used skillfully, it can do very good things for the neighborhood. Residents ought to love it. (And I think they generally do.)
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,6536.0.html
How do you reconcile this with the RED ALERT call to action from SPAR?
As a block captain, I've filed a great many complaints and still do. As a whole, it does work and I've had very positive outcomes...but yes, there's the property owners that don't care about fines and allow the property to fall into despair. Having too many complaints, I've also noticed seem to escalate to where the city will or considers knocking the property down...so it's a double edge sword.
Any actual properties I've reported, there's no owner in the area to talk with.
B/C asking someione to cleanup thier act, even in a nice way, is often not appreciated by the offender.
"It's none of your business" or something like that, kind or harsh, is the repsonse more often than you muight think.
This can lead to a rift, a perceived confrontation, a perceived wrong, or feeling victimized....even though they are not.
The CARE system is meant to cut all that out.
I just placed 2 CARE requests in yesterday, one for the caved in portion of sidewalk on Walnut and another for huge piles of branches that the city neglected to pick up after they cut them down several weeks ago.
Very effective system for thse types of things.
Matt did you not have a big problem with a house (housing several people ) on your block. Wasn't the owner in Seattle, did you talk to the owner? Didn't you go to SPAR for help and they took care of it for you (and was accused of harrassment by this owner) and the place was emptied? I only know of this because I was there when your wife thanked Louise. It is so easy to suppport iffy stuff if it is not on your block?
Incidently I have never called the care system or reported anyone and for the first 5 years I was here there was a group home 4 doors down from me.
Strider and Sheclown, HSCC wrote the book on checking and reporting on neighbors, the monthly walks are in the records.
As to the "Red Alert", this was not a Block Captain thing. I'm not aware that the Block Captains were asked in any non-routine way to make targeted CARE complaints. That being said, what the memo suggests, i.e. making complaints to code enforcement, is generally consistent with what Block Captains have done, with generally successful results I would contend.
As to talking with the property owners, I agree that that is a good thing to do (hence the cards, and also phone calls). I think many folks are reluctant to do this, anticipating potentially antagonistic responses. Actually my experience was that I more often was met with indifference than antagonism. I guess I ask myself on a case by case basis, it this a situation where a friendly card or call would do, or one where the owner surely knows better, and the slightly more threatening letter from the city would be more appropriate?
Ultimately, the factor that very often makes it difficult to have this dialog with owners is that they live outside the neighborhood, and can't be located or refuse to respond.
Doug Vanderlaan
Market & 5th
Matt what do you think people should be doing to solve such problems if you cannot look out for strange activity without being accused of all kinds of trangressions?
I agree with you - nice to talk to you
Quote from: fsu813 on November 10, 2009, 10:00:17 AM
The CARE system is meant to cut all that out.
I just placed 2 CARE requests in yesterday, one for the caved in portion of sidewalk on Walnut
Hey FSU813 Thanks, I've been meaning to get around to putting that in. That's my house. One of the wandering locals walked by on Sunday and tried to tell my wife that he could trip and fall and sue me for that. My wife told him that it's city property not ours and he'd have to take it up with the city. Apparently, he did. My wife got a call from a lady with the city today. The guy filed a suit against the city saying he fell in that crack. The lady is coming to my house this afternoon to get a statement from my wife.. I wish I'd had put that CARE request in sooner now, save the city from this hassle.. Again, Thanks for putting it in..
Quote from: Doug V on November 10, 2009, 09:17:44 AM
Does SPAR conduct mass CARE complaint campaigns against targeted properties?
Absolutely.
Quote from: Doug V on November 10, 2009, 09:17:44 AM
CARE complaints can and have helped get major heat brought to bear on delinquent property owners and slumlords. They can, via due process, ultimately lead to big fines. See for example: http://www.duvalclerk.com/oncoreweb/showdetails.aspx?id=8568291&rn=84&pi=5&ref=search .
True, they do...however the city makes no effort to collect or even take the property for Sheriff sale as most major cities do. A property with many complaints can then land on the demo list...which has happened many times.
That is the trouble with using the CARE system that way. Many fought long and hard to save the very houses many who call in those complaints are living in. Without a check system, which exists but has been overridden by the city, HPC and SPAR Council upon occasion, the houses are destined to come down. While it seems fine to try to force some absentee owner to address an old condemned and forgotten house, often the issue is one of not being able to secure financing or simply, as some houses have been done, taking years to pay cash to do it yourself as much as possible. Lately these houses have been put at risk by an economy that makes it more difficult to finance the rehabs, a city who find it easier to tear them down and an organization with a leader that thinks tearing them down is fine as well.
The CARE system is indeed for those complaints about pot holes, over grown weeds, trash sitting on the side of the road and even illegal activity (use) to some extent but when it gets used to put houses on the fast track to demolition to force people to do something, it becomes wrong. When it is used to try to put someone out of their homes because you don’t like them, it becomes wrong. The CARE system is a great tool, but like any tool, it needs to be used properly.
Quote from: Doug V on November 11, 2009, 07:26:00 AM
Quote from: Doug V on November 10, 2009, 09:17:44 AM
CARE complaints can and have helped get major heat brought to bear on delinquent property owners and slumlords. They can, via due process, ultimately lead to big fines. See for example: http://www.duvalclerk.com/oncoreweb/showdetails.aspx?id=8568291&rn=84&pi=5&ref=search .
Oh I'm a slumlord now, great! Thanks Doug!
As a quick side note, this is starting to sound an awful lot like libel. I can find out who you are too...
You're conveniently posting only the half of the story that supports your viewpoint. I guess you didn't feel it important to mention that I sued COJ, or that the GC's office agreed that the fine was illegal and immediately settled with my attorneys, or that it was vacated it in its entirety without me having to pay a cent of that ridiculous $120k judgment.
Seems like if you post one you should post the other, no?
http://www.duvalclerk.com/oncoreweb/showdetails.aspx?id=9703736&rn=0&pi=0&ref=search
The alleged violations were nonexistent to begin with, and then COJ sent the only notice of the MCEB hearing to a former rental property on Dignan Street, where I didn't live and hadn't even owned for 5 years. Needless to say, I never got the notice, or I would have been present at the original hearing, and the fines would never have been issued in the first place. You seem to have left that part out too.
And the whole thing was strangely coincidental, since they never had any problem finding my *actual* house, you know...where I *actually* live...either before or after that incident. I suspect it was an attempted railroad-job by a code officer with "friends in the neighborhood." I only found out about it later, and I immediately filed suit the minute I heard about it. But again, you seem to have left that part out.
Meanwhile:
Doug Vanderlaan
Chair, Sector B SHADCO
vanderla@comcast.net
(904) 923-5179
I will withhold posting your address at this time, because I believe that might violate this site's TOS. But I have it.
What you've done by posting a copy of an administrative fine and calling me a "slumlord", without mentioning the fact that COJ was sued, and that the fine was determined to be illegal and completely vacated, constitutes libel
per se.
And SHADCO eh?
But let's be clear: If you do it to me again, I'm going to handle this in a different fashion.
Quote from: Springfielder on November 11, 2009, 08:13:07 AM
True, they do...however the city makes no effort to collect or even take the property for Sheriff sale as most major cities do. A property with many complaints can then land on the demo list...which has happened many times.
I agree Springfielder, the City needs more teeth in its collection of these fines. I guess some of the irresponsible property owners can hire attorneys and wriggle out the the fines they rack up. But consider that in the case at hand, the property owner owned a bunch of properties, ran up many thousands in code enforcement fines and liens, and apparently decided to get out of the buy, sell, flip, rent business. Maybe the fines, defects and all, created a positive outcome for our community after all.
Doug Vanderlaan
1453 Market St N
Quote from: Doug V on November 11, 2009, 12:20:15 PM
Quote from: Springfielder on November 11, 2009, 08:13:07 AM
True, they do...however the city makes no effort to collect or even take the property for Sheriff sale as most major cities do. A property with many complaints can then land on the demo list...which has happened many times.
I agree Springfielder, the City needs more teeth in its collection of these fines. I guess some of the irresponsible property owners can hire attorneys and wriggle out the the fines they rack up. But consider that in the case at hand, the property owner owned a bunch of properties, ran up many thousands in code enforcement fines and liens, and apparently decided to get out of the buy, sell, flip, rent business. Maybe the fines, defects and all, created a positive outcome for our community after all.
Quoted so it doesn't disappear.
Quote from: Doug V on November 11, 2009, 12:20:15 PM
I agree Springfielder, the City needs more teeth in its collection of these fines. I guess some of the irresponsible property owners can hire attorneys and wriggle out the the fines they rack up. But consider that in the case at hand, the property owner owned a bunch of properties, ran up many thousands in code enforcement fines and liens, and apparently decided to get out of the buy, sell, flip, rent business.
That fine was utter B.S. It was illegal to begin with. That's why it was vacated. Not because I "wriggled out of it".
Keep it up.
Based on your posts, Doug, it appears that you're speaking on behalf of SHADCO on these forums:
Quote from: Doug V on November 10, 2009, 09:17:44 AM
The CARE system is a topic I have had enough experience with that I think I can bring some much needed clarity to the discussion.
Does SPAR conduct mass CARE complaint campaigns against targeted properties? Not to my knowledge, and I ought to know. As an active part of SPAR's Block Captains for years I led an effort to use the CARE system on a much larger scale. We often discussed the CARE system in Block Captins meetings, and I suspect I have placed more complaints than anyone in Jax. I still use it, and encourage my neighbors to do the same.
The majority of issues I place in CARE call for the city to take action, not the property owner. Examples: requests to pick up missed garbage and tires, repair sidewalks, remove dead trees, abandoned cars, etc.
We certainly do use it to try to get delinquent property owners to clean to their act. It can be effective, but it can also fail, for example if the property owner can't be located, or if he ignores to threat of escalating fines. I never had the ability or inclination to get groups of neighbors to file a complaint on the same property, let alone hundreds. Even if I could, I don't think that multiple complaints bring much more attention that a single one. Each must be evaluated by the city, and judged on its merits wrt city code.
As to speaking with neighbors, block captains do that too. I devised a postcard that we have sent to many residents and owners. Our objective with these is primarily educational, i.e. politely reminding residents to put garbage in containers, and call in waste tires.
Is it possible to indicate who is placing the CARE issue? Yes, it certainly is. Block Captains had no policy as to submitting anonymously or not, but I always include my name, and I think most of us do.
Does CARE work? Not perfectly, but pretty well. I am confident that Block Captains' efforts have led to hundreds or tires being removed, tons of garbage removed, dozens (hundreds?) of overgrown lots mown, lots of sidewalks repaired, hundreds of streetlights repaired (strictly speaking, not via CARE) and many abandoned cars removed.
CARE complaint can and have helped get major heat brought to bear on delinquent property owners and slumlords. They can, via due process, ultimately lead to big fines. See for example: http://www.duvalclerk.com/oncoreweb/showdetails.aspx?id=8568291&rn=84&pi=5&ref=search .
So I can imagine that irresponsible property owners and slumlords don't care for CARE, and wish SPAR and Springfielders wouldn't use it, but used skillfully, it can do very good things for the neighborhood. Residents ought to love it. (And I think they generally do.)
Quote from: Doug V on November 10, 2009, 10:36:47 AM
SHADCO is on Christmas break now, but the last meeting was on 10-26, a few days after the thread above. Please do come to our next meeting, January 25, 6PM at SPAR. I don't know whether we will have any Weed & Seed news then, but I hope to generally keep SHADCO engaged with Weed & Seed. In the meantime, Mr. Cronwrath is indeed a good contact.
Please be aware that you've made it clear you're speaking as SHADCO, and that I view your comments accordingly.
Holy meltdown batman. Dude, take a step back.
Quote from: Dan B on November 11, 2009, 01:28:35 PM
Holy meltdown batman. Dude, take a step back.
With all due respect Dan, I wasn't the one who took the step forward to begin with.
This guy is on these forums with the apparent authority to speak on behalf of SHADCO, and goes off stating as fact that I'm a "slumlord," etc., etc. If that's the game, then fine by me. There'll be no FCC to complain to here. Just me, him, probably SHADCO, and a judge.
This simply went too far. I've had enough.
I don't know if anyone would've known who the property owner was until they went off...so now we all know.
As for libel or slander....wouldn't one have to prove damage(s) and such cases are extremely difficult to prove and/or win, are they not?
edited: typo
Whatever. Chris is acting like a whiny baby. He can dish it out all day long, and talk about what a 'sack' someone else is, and how everone at an organization is corrupt, but when some one suggests he is upset due to his own lack of ability to keep his own properties safe and clean, he melts down and threatens lawsuit.
Very weak.
Using 'we' and 'our' in one post referring to Block Captains and using the same collective phraseology when referring to ShAdCo is not the same as representing ShAdCo in every post when using those same terms.
When referencing 'we' at work I am referring to my immediate colleagues and not the same people when referencing 'we' if I am at a neighborhood meeting. The two do not match up.
The second part of the paragraph can be presumed to speak of the effectiveness of CARE requests not necessarily the persons referenced in the first sentence. Any good attorney would be able to cut that to shreds if a suit was filed.
Quote from: Springfielder on November 11, 2009, 03:13:37 PM
I don't know if anyone would've known who the property owner was until they went off...so now we all know.
As for libel or slander....wouldn't one have to prove damage(s) and such cases are extremely difficult to prove and/or win, are they not?
edited: typo
That's the thing about libel
per se, you don't have to prove special damages as with traditional defamation.
Quote from: nvrenuf on November 11, 2009, 04:09:40 PM
Using 'we' and 'our' in one post referring to Block Captains and using the same collective phraseology when referring to ShAdCo is not the same as representing ShAdCo in every post when using those same terms.
When referencing 'we' at work I am referring to my immediate colleagues and not the same people when referencing 'we' if I am at a neighborhood meeting. The two do not match up.
The second part of the paragraph can be presumed to speak of the effectiveness of CARE requests not necessarily the persons referenced in the first sentence. Any good attorney would be able to cut that to shreds if a suit was filed.
You're overlooking the fact that this isn't two coworkers gossiping. He's the SHADCO Chairman for Sector B, and repeatedly posts here on behalf of SHADCO. His statements carry more weight than a normal poster, because of his position. AFAIK, his libelous post could have been made in his capacity as SHADCO Chair.
I'm not going to engage in anymore legal debate about all of this. If I'm forced to respond to the self-described SHADCO Chairman's statement-as-fact that I'm a "slumlord" in court, I'll take that up at that time.
Quote from: ChriswUfGatorThat's the thing about libel per se, you don't have to prove special damages as with traditional defamation.
But wouldn't you have to prove damages? Seems to me, Doug used the terms such as "irresponsible property owners" "delinquent property owners and slumlords" I don't recall him saying which one he directly referred to the court document he listed. I might add, that with the situation having gone through the court system, then something was wrong with said owner and their property....
Quote from: Dan B on November 11, 2009, 03:51:54 PM
Whatever. Chris is acting like a whiny baby. He can dish it out all day long, and talk about what a 'sack' someone else is, and how everone at an organization is corrupt, but when some one suggests he is upset due to his own lack of ability to keep his own properties safe and clean, he melts down and threatens lawsuit.
Very weak.
SPAR is a public organization, and is accordingly open to public comment. I am not.
And while I don't have a high opinion of SPAR and its crew, I've said nothing untrue about them. If an organization violates its bylaws by refusing to hold elections, or disregards its mandate by helping destroy historic housing stock, then my saying so isn't libelous.
But this personal B.S. needs to stop. The comments here crossed a line.
Quote from: Springfielder on November 11, 2009, 04:42:00 PM
Quote from: ChriswUfGatorThat's the thing about libel per se, you don't have to prove special damages as with traditional defamation.
But wouldn't you have to prove damages? Seems to me, Doug used the terms such as "irresponsible property owners" "delinquent property owners and slumlords" I don't recall him saying which one he directly referred to the court document he listed. I might add, that with the situation having gone through the court system, then something was wrong with said owner and their property....
Give it a rest. He posted a link with my name on it saying here's an "example". Who do you think he was referring to then?
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on November 11, 2009, 04:44:12 PM
Quote from: Springfielder on November 11, 2009, 04:42:00 PM
Quote from: ChriswUfGatorThat's the thing about libel per se, you don't have to prove special damages as with traditional defamation.
But wouldn't you have to prove damages? Seems to me, Doug used the terms such as "irresponsible property owners" "delinquent property owners and slumlords" I don't recall him saying which one he directly referred to the court document he listed. I might add, that with the situation having gone through the court system, then something was wrong with said owner and their property....
Give it a rest. He posted a link with my name on it saying here's an "example".
You're the one blasting off about libel and such....
Quote from: Springfielder on November 11, 2009, 04:44:53 PM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on November 11, 2009, 04:44:12 PM
Quote from: Springfielder on November 11, 2009, 04:42:00 PM
Quote from: ChriswUfGatorThat's the thing about libel per se, you don't have to prove special damages as with traditional defamation.
But wouldn't you have to prove damages? Seems to me, Doug used the terms such as "irresponsible property owners" "delinquent property owners and slumlords" I don't recall him saying which one he directly referred to the court document he listed. I might add, that with the situation having gone through the court system, then something was wrong with said owner and their property....
Give it a rest. He posted a link with my name on it saying here's an "example".
You're the one blasting off about libel and such....
Because it is.
I think you need to dig out that law book again and re-read that section.... :o
Quote from: Springfielder on November 11, 2009, 04:49:27 PM
I think you need to dig out that law book again and re-read that section.... :o
Think whatever you want.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on November 11, 2009, 04:43:31 PM
Quote from: Dan B on November 11, 2009, 03:51:54 PM
Whatever. Chris is acting like a whiny baby. He can dish it out all day long, and talk about what a 'sack' someone else is, and how everone at an organization is corrupt, but when some one suggests he is upset due to his own lack of ability to keep his own properties safe and clean, he melts down and threatens lawsuit.
Very weak.
SPAR is a public organization, and is accordingly open to public comment. I am not.
And while I don't have a high opinion of SPAR and its crew, I've said nothing untrue about them. If an organization violates its bylaws by refusing to hold elections, or disregards its mandate by helping destroy historic housing stock, then my saying so isn't libelous.
But this personal B.S. needs to stop. The comments here crossed a line.
SPAR may be public, but the officers on the board are not. By calling someone a 'sack' or calling into question their decision making by suggesting corruption, and outright saying that they are personally gaining wealth by kowtowing to a developer, to me is WAY more libelous both to the person your accusing, and of the developer.
Aside from that, this whole act of calling someones employer, or volunteer organization, as the case may be, is so freaking beyond any reasonable line that its sickening, and anyone who does it should be ashamed of themselves.
Consequences, for voicing ones opinion? Give me a break
Quote from: stephendare on November 11, 2009, 04:57:36 PM
Chris, several of the posters have gained confidence in the tactics of personal attacks.
They have been ignored so frequently that they have come to believe they are immune from any consequences.
Nobody knows more about personal attacks, and outing other posters than you Stephen.
Quote from: Dan B on November 11, 2009, 04:55:36 PM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on November 11, 2009, 04:43:31 PM
Quote from: Dan B on November 11, 2009, 03:51:54 PM
Whatever. Chris is acting like a whiny baby. He can dish it out all day long, and talk about what a 'sack' someone else is, and how everone at an organization is corrupt, but when some one suggests he is upset due to his own lack of ability to keep his own properties safe and clean, he melts down and threatens lawsuit.
Very weak.
SPAR is a public organization, and is accordingly open to public comment. I am not.
And while I don't have a high opinion of SPAR and its crew, I've said nothing untrue about them. If an organization violates its bylaws by refusing to hold elections, or disregards its mandate by helping destroy historic housing stock, then my saying so isn't libelous.
But this personal B.S. needs to stop. The comments here crossed a line.
SPAR may be public, but the officers on the board are not. By calling someone a 'sack' or calling into question their decision making by suggesting corruption, and outright saying that they are personally gaining wealth by kowtowing to a developer, to me is WAY more libelous both to the person your accusing, and of the developer.
Aside from that, this whole act of calling someones employer, or volunteer organization, as the case may be, is so freaking beyond any reasonable line that its sickening, and anyone who does it should be ashamed of themselves.
No, Dan, they are public figures serving in a public capacity. I don't know Louise personally, or at all, outside of her role as SPAR director, and my criticism was plainly directed towards her in that capacity. In fact, that comment related to the bogus petition they tried to circulate as a "sign in sheet", which was a SPAR action that occurred at a SPAR meeting. I have no capacity, other than as a private individual. You're comparing apples and oranges.
I don't have any problem whatsoever with any normal poster saying whatever they want about me, good, bad, or indifferent. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, of me, and of anything else. You included.
What I have a serious problem with is the SHADCO Chairman coming here and wrongfully stating that I am a "slumlord" on a public forum, and then posting links to COJ fines while failing to mention they were bogus and already vacated. Ridiculous.
So if I'm the President and CEO of Logic International and also the co-captain of my neighborhood rugby team. When I say to my fellow rugby players 'we are going to kick Avondale's asses, those Prius loving pricks, we're going to f'ing murder them', a normal person not part of the team would think that my words carry more weight due to my business stature and therefore presume I am also speaking on behalf of my company?
I understand your emotional tie to the statements made but the law is not emotional, it is expected to be logical. Libel per se claims must be "so obviously harmful" in order to obtain judgment. The paragraph/sentence structure would not appear to have enough ties to meet that burden of proof, worded differently well that might be another story. So I guess, as usual, it really comes down to the judge one would draw.
Quote from: stephendare on November 11, 2009, 04:57:36 PM
Chris, several of the posters have gained confidence in the tactics of personal attacks.
They have been ignored so frequently that they have come to believe they are immune from any consequences.
Normally, they are immune. Everyone's entitled to their random opinion, without it being libel, especially when discussing public figures (which is usually what happens around here).
But the Chair of SHADCO is not entitled to cross this line, disclosing someone's full name and declaring that private person a "slumlord" on a public forum. I am offended, and I believe rightfully so.
Quote from: ChriswUfGatorI don't have any problem whatsoever with any normal poster saying whatever they want about me, good, bad, or indifferent. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, of me, and of anything else. You included.
What I have a serious problem with is the SHADCO Chairman coming here and wrongfully stating that I am a "slumlord" on a public forum, and then posting links to COJ fines while failing to mention they were bogus and already vacated. Ridiculous.
I don't know you, so the only persona I have to reference is the one you display here....however, I didn't read where Doug referred to you as a slumlord. Again I quote what he did use "irresponsible property owners" "delinquent property owners and slumlords" Even though he posted a link to a court document, he still did not single you out by using one of those terms to you directly.
Quote from: stephendare on November 11, 2009, 05:03:24 PM
Quote from: Springfielder on November 11, 2009, 04:58:28 PM
Consequences, for voicing ones opinion? Give me a break
Why not just stop libelling and personally attacking people you don't agree with? That seems like a better solution, and Im not addressing this to you springfielder, but several of your acquaintances seem to feel the same sense of entitlement to other people's reputation that they feel for controlling their property and living choices.
Its not very effective anyways.
Just stick to the topic.
So now you're accusing me of libel? Because I'm voicing my opinion on this issue that's currently being discussed?
Quote from: stephendare on November 11, 2009, 05:00:38 PM
Proving the point.
When you cannot win on the merits you attack the person Dan.
Try and stick to the subject at hand, if you don't mind. Bullying is no way to try and lead.
that was a vapid what?
Quote from: stephendaretry rereading the post. All of this should be handled in privates. I would have sent it as a private message, but the group has proven time and time again that they cannot respect the intent behind sending private messages.
Well given that I didn't receive a pm, and all I'm doing is responding to what's being discussed...
Quote from: nvrenuf on November 11, 2009, 05:03:03 PM
So if I'm the President and CEO of Logic International and also the co-captain of my neighborhood rugby team. When I say to my fellow rugby players 'we are going to kick Avondale's asses, those Prius loving pricks, we're going to f'ing murder them', a normal person not part of the team would think that my words carry more weight due to my business stature and therefore presume I am also speaking on behalf of my company?
I understand your emotional tie to the statements made but the law is not emotional, it is expected to be logical. Libel per se claims must be "so obviously harmful" in order to obtain judgment. The paragraph/sentence structure would not appear to have enough ties to meet that burden of proof, worded differently well that might be another story. So I guess, as usual, it really comes down to the judge one would draw.
That isn't even close to what happened here.
That screen name has a total of 6 posts, with 4 of them in his official capacity as SHADCO Chair, where he is providing public notice of an upcoming meeting, etc., and the other 2 are about what a "slumlord" I am. There is no distinction, and I'm offended.
To change your example to fit the facts, instead of a rugby game you'd be a corporate meeting. You'd make 4 comments about how the board of directors meeting is coming up, you want to see the 4th quarter numbers, yada, yada, and then without skipping a beat you say "Oh, and Ellen in accounting's a convicted child molester".
Quote from: Springfielder on November 11, 2009, 05:05:13 PM
Quote from: ChriswUfGatorI don't have any problem whatsoever with any normal poster saying whatever they want about me, good, bad, or indifferent. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, of me, and of anything else. You included.
What I have a serious problem with is the SHADCO Chairman coming here and wrongfully stating that I am a "slumlord" on a public forum, and then posting links to COJ fines while failing to mention they were bogus and already vacated. Ridiculous.
I don't know you, so the only persona I have to reference is the one you display here....however, I didn't read where Doug referred to you as a slumlord. Again I quote what he did use "irresponsible property owners" "delinquent property owners and slumlords" Even though he posted a link to a court document, he still did not single you out by using one of those terms to you directly.
Again, give this one a rest. He posted a link with my name on it and said here's an "example".
Who exactly do you think he was referring to then?
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on November 11, 2009, 05:11:19 PM
Quote from: Springfielder on November 11, 2009, 05:05:13 PM
Quote from: ChriswUfGatorI don't have any problem whatsoever with any normal poster saying whatever they want about me, good, bad, or indifferent. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, of me, and of anything else. You included.
What I have a serious problem with is the SHADCO Chairman coming here and wrongfully stating that I am a "slumlord" on a public forum, and then posting links to COJ fines while failing to mention they were bogus and already vacated. Ridiculous.
I don't know you, so the only persona I have to reference is the one you display here....however, I didn't read where Doug referred to you as a slumlord. Again I quote what he did use "irresponsible property owners" "delinquent property owners and slumlords" Even though he posted a link to a court document, he still did not single you out by using one of those terms to you directly.
and again, he listed three different terms, you opted to single out slumlord. Even with the link, he still did not say you were a slumlord...I believe he used plurals, didn't he
Again, give this one a rest. He posted a link with my name on it and said here's an "example".
Who exactly do you think he was referring to then?
Didn't he use plurals when using those terms? So how did he make it a direct reference to you, other than to show an example of what happens when code enforcement become involved
i believe that AlexS put in a CARE request last year during the holidays for missed recycling pickup and believe it or not - christmas day, someone in a small city pickup truck came out and picked it up.
you know, Chris, until you freaked, I sincerely doubt ANYONE knew that the document was aimed at you.
To that point, as Springfielder pointed out, he did list three options. so which one are you afraid he was calling you, and which do you take issue with? irresponsible property owner, delinquent property owner, or slumlord?
I'm done commenting on this subject.
This matter is between SHADCO, Doug, and myself. If this situation repeats itself again in the future, I will deal with it at that time.
This thread should be locked.
that's the pot calling the kettle black ::).....and just whom is calling names...I've not called anyone a name, yet I'm discussing the issue that was brought into the this thread about libel.
Thanks Springfielder, us lower-middle-class Assknobs, and vapid little dicks agree whole heartedly.
hey now, my friend the "motherless son of a cow" takes issue with that.
care request have also been used when we have found abdandoned cars in some back lots. it really doesn't take them very long at all.
Thanks for getting us back on topic Cindi. I also use the CARE system to have tires removed from CROW as some residents don't appear to know how to make this happen, illegal dump sites cleared, abandoned empty lots mowed, etc. They really are very easy to complete.
The CARE system does work and I've generally had very positive and quick responses when I've registered one. I've even had illegal parking in the alleyways and sidewalks handled.
darn.
late to the party.
Quote from: Matt M on November 11, 2009, 08:55:08 PM
Quote from: Karl_Pilkington on November 11, 2009, 05:27:25 PM
hey now, my friend the "motherless son of a cow" takes issue with that.
and my non-flowering plants ;)
maybe you need a lawn gnome, chris may have an extra one for you.
Can we kick up some drama or what! Hells yeah!
Funny you should write that Cindi, when my flowers came under attack, Virginia said lets get garden gnomes, like in "The Full Montey" I love gnomes. So wait for it - you may see some appear, maybe my family in England will send some, maybe one will hold the sign.
Sorry Never didn't mean to digress.
So we've had 3 documents posted lately, the one in this thread, an email from Louise, and a Proton Therapy employee's response to "red alert." We've heard that all the damning information we need to know is in the emails, in regards to the SPAR related emails. But, this singular document in this thread doesn't tell the whole story and doesn't count?
Man, when the shoe is on the other foot it doesn't sound nearly as fun.
*views expressed in this post are not those of contentdg, just jason_contentdg.
well now...
that ties it up in a nice, big bow
doesn't it?
The property linked to isn't even in the historic district. Then again, my property outside of Springfield was called in by SPAR as well. And others.
I suppose I am a slumlord too. That's fine by me. I really don't know what that means, but I'm sure I've been called worse. I suppose it means that my properties are not up to community standards, but they are. I suppose that means that my renters are less than desirable, I suppose they are, but that's okay too. They are really great people that deserve a place to live just like the next person.
& set the record straight, Chris didn't post the email, Joe and I did.
The CARE system may work fine in some cases, in others it is abused. To think that it isn't is rather naive. To use it instead of talking to the owner about your concerns is chicken-shit, but that's okay too. Understand that it is an attack, nonetheless.
I personally know that Doug makes every effort to call owners of property when he has concerns. Unlike others.
As we've seen in the car wash thread, we have different views of Springfield, what it is, what it could be, and how to get to that point.
All of our toes have been stepped on. How do we get beyond all of this? Two people close to me this week have died. Life is too short for all of this bickering. Main Street is a waste land. Neighbors are fighting. Spying. Calling. I suppose one could say it is against the intent of the overlay for Springfield to be a war zone.
Sheclown do you think you could give it a break??
Anyhoo, the big piles of branches on 7th St. that fsu813 posted about waaay back on page 1 were picked up as of yesterday. So thanks, neighbor!
Sheclown, go have a cup of tea and some cake.
Chris Farley, I think you should sell the garden gnomes as a fundraiser for Lisa's bench. I loved her back yard - she would think it is a hoot! I'll take at least three.
Care is also great for getting rid of that free hot tub you got on craigslist 4 months ago and has just been sitting in your yard...
^ "water feature"
in other news....
the sidewalk cave-in on Walnut & E. 7th that i placed CARE request for the other day is already being addressed. saw 5 guys out there this morning working on it.
I want a gnome for my yard! or one of those flamingos with the wings that spin!!! haha
I submitted a pile on E 6th Street on Saturday to Care, and it was gone on Monday night.
can you submit random piles of trash or garbage?
Quote from: fsu813 on November 12, 2009, 11:35:29 AM
can you submit random piles of trash or garbage?
Yes, you request a special pick up. you can also do it for appliances, and other things, under the waste/trash category.
Quote from: chris farley on November 11, 2009, 10:25:06 PM
Funny you should write that Cindi, when my flowers came under attack, Virginia said lets get garden gnomes, like in "The Full Montey" I love gnomes. So wait for it - you may see some appear, maybe my family in England will send some, maybe one will hold the sign.
Sorry Never didn't mean to digress.
as long as there are not more than 5 unrelated gnomes in the yard i think it's a great idea. ;)
Cindi you gave me should a good laugh at this sad time. I am going to check gnomes maybe there is one that we could adopt as a Springfield Gnome. Virginia will be happy she has wanted one for ages.
There is a memorial being planned for Lisa hopefully at the Woman's Club. I have talked to Phil he is devasted he has lost his love. Maybe if people feel like it they could make some food. He says he is all right right now.
Dan, doesn't The Ark basically do the same thing?
That is, they'll go and pick up items on the side of the road?
Quote from: fsu813 on November 12, 2009, 04:04:22 PM
Dan, doesn't The Ark basically do the same thing?
That is, they'll go and pick up items on the side of the road?
I wasnt aware they were still doing that. I thought that had dried up.
This is a tale of a house on 5th street. This house was lived in by it’s owner for many years. The owner had little money so the house did not get the maintenance it really needed. Eventually, the owner’s health deteriorated and the house was sold. While I am a little fuzzy on this, the new owner began to plan on the houses restoration but the house got turned into the system to insure it got done and was condemned. The work on the house was started, but financial concerns prevented it’s completion so the house was sold. The current owners have done wonders with the house. It has been totally restored on the exterior and looks like new. Many within the community have raved about the work done to this house. However, as the house is being done on a cash basis; in other words, as the funds are available, the work gets done, it has not been 100% completed.
Back to the issue with the city. The owners have had to go in front of the Special Masters and will again soon. If the house is not 100%, they will be fined. This is not a house that looks condemned. It is not a house that anyone living next door to would even think wasn’t 100% done from the outside. Why is the city still trying force this issue? Is it simply fund raising? Why is the local organization not using the influence they claim to have to get code enforcement to back off? Why is a representative not going to code enforcement and helping these owners, who are doing exactly what the organization wanted them to do, and speaking on behalf of the owners?
This is just part of the reason that using code enforcement as a “tool†to get houses done or sold does not work. It is a great tool for getting houses torn down but not saving them. Even this house, as great of a restoration job as it is, is now at risk of eventually getting torn down if the fines get levied and start racking up. The owners, who have done everything right, can get discouraged and decide to cut their losses.
What's the address? PM me if you'd like.
QuoteWhy is the local organization not using the influence they claim to have to get code enforcement to back off? Why is a representative not going to code enforcement and helping these owners, who are doing exactly what the organization wanted them to do, and speaking on behalf of the owners?
I'd also like the address, as SPAR Council has not been contacted by an owner under duress on either E or W 5th St. I think that would have been one of the first steps this property owner should have taken if they expected this organization to help.
Quote from: zoo on November 25, 2009, 09:29:05 AM
QuoteWhy is the local organization not using the influence they claim to have to get code enforcement to back off? Why is a representative not going to code enforcement and helping these owners, who are doing exactly what the organization wanted them to do, and speaking on behalf of the owners?
I'd also like the address, as SPAR Council has not been contacted by an owner under duress on either E or W 5th St. I think that would have been one of the first steps this property owner should have taken if they expected this organization to help.
Zoo, you can't blame them for not calling SPAR and asking for help, when if my own experience is any indication, or many other peoples' experience is any indication, it was probably SPAR that ratted them out to code enforcement to begin with.
They really need to stop with that B.S. The result can very likely be a complete demolition, rather than renovations, and the whole thing runs counter to what SPAR is
supposed to stand for. I think somewhere in someone's mind there may have originally been some good intent behind it, like "We'll call so they have to fix the place up, and that will improve the neighborhood."
But somewhere along the line it became a tool for harassing people SPAR doesn't like. And many times, it achieves the opposite result, and COJ condemns the place and you wind up with yet another vacant lot. That strategy is just awful, they need to knock it off.
QuoteStrider: Why is the local organization not using the influence they claim to have to get code enforcement to back off? Why is a representative not going to code enforcement and helping these owners, who are doing exactly what the organization wanted them to do, and speaking on behalf of the owners?
So are you saying that the owners have contacted spar and they've not been helped? If they haven't contacted and asked for their help, then you cannot blame them for something they may know nothing about. However, if they were contacted and dropped the ball, then yes, blame them.
Ponte Vedra, World Golf Village, Nocatee anyone? You people don't get it. If the owners are chased away and the building falls, the size of the lots on either side of the remaining homes will seem to magically expand. As time passes YOU will be living in your own version of WGV... "FORE!"Quote
OZ great wizard deluxe, calls from the corner:
"Knock down those unsightly buildings, get rid of those undesirable elements, we're building a Yellow Brick Road, of course it won't be Kansas anymore Toto, it will be suburbia come home to roost."
OCKLAWAHA
I've sat in on a couple of special master's hearings and got the impression that they will bend over backwards to work with the owners who are working to save a house and keep postponing the imposition of any fines as long as progress is being made. Was I just seeing a couple of exceptions to the usual practice?
No, i've sat in on one as well. They are reasonable people generally.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on November 25, 2009, 11:28:16 AM
Quote from: zoo on November 25, 2009, 09:29:05 AM
QuoteWhy is the local organization not using the influence they claim to have to get code enforcement to back off? Why is a representative not going to code enforcement and helping these owners, who are doing exactly what the organization wanted them to do, and speaking on behalf of the owners?
I'd also like the address, as SPAR Council has not been contacted by an owner under duress on either E or W 5th St. I think that would have been one of the first steps this property owner should have taken if they expected this organization to help.
Zoo, you can't blame them for not calling SPAR and asking for help, when if my own experience is any indication, or many other peoples' experience is any indication, it was probably SPAR that ratted them out to code enforcement to begin with.
They really need to stop with that B.S. The result can very likely be a complete demolition, rather than renovations, and the whole thing runs counter to what SPAR is supposed to stand for. I think somewhere in someone's mind there may have originally been some good intent behind it, like "We'll call so they have to fix the place up, and that will improve the neighborhood."
But somewhere along the line it became a tool for harassing people SPAR doesn't like. And many times, it achieves the opposite result, and COJ condemns the place and you wind up with yet another vacant lot. That strategy is just awful, they need to knock it off.
Yawn.
Not everything is about, or revolves around SPAR.
The work being done in this house is permitted. It is being done right, just not as fast as the city would like. SPAR Council is involved because I now know that while they were part of the drive to force the owners of condemned and otherwise less than perfect houses to either sell them or finish them, they didn't bother to do any follow up. Get the houses into the sytem, but then, forget them and let things happen as they may. We have already seen the result of that if the house isn't lucky enough to have someone actually be able to do the work.
By and by, my past experience with code enforcement and the special masters is that they will follow what the officers involved say to do. In my case, they actually agreed that I was not notified properly...somehow the notices went to the wrong address...work really probably didn't need done....but so what, pay the costs anyway. I was not impressed that they were trying to be fair, I would more likely believe they were fund raising...picking some houses because they felt they would get paid.
I have PM'd the address to a couple and hopefully someone at SPAR Council will prove they actually have any influence with the city....
hopefully sharp can help resolve some of these issues if they ever get up and running.
Quote from: fsu813 on November 25, 2009, 03:02:28 PM
No, i've sat in on one as well. They are reasonable people generally.
I agree, the Special Master's hearing process is very fair, and they can be quite reasonable.
The problem is that the street-level code officers themselves are many times completely unreasonable, and two of them in particular I ran into over the years, who I'll politely decline to name, have got severe napoleon complexes. I suspect they must have wanted to be cops, but couldn't cut it, and wound up doing that instead. Others, like Bruce Chauncey in particular immediately comes to mind, are extremely reasonable and friendly people.
I've had all sorts of stuff pulled on me by one individual officer, who was all buddied up with SRG & SPAR, and that was the one who cited some non-existent violations at one property, and then mailed the only notice of the hearing to another rental where he knew full well I didn't live. Because I never got notice, I didn't go to the meeting, and by the time I found out about it I already owed COJ (literally) $120,000.00 for B.S. like trash in the yard. It was a railroad job. Thankfully we have a court system. But the bottom line is, the Special Masters hearing process only works if everyone plays by the rules, and some don't.