Sometimes if you build it, they don't come! It was mentioned earlier today in the Greenville Elements of Urbanism article that this city has a privately funded toll road. Our proposed +$2 billion Outer Beltway is supposed to be of the same cloth. Before we get in too deep, taking a closer look at Greenville's situation should be considered.
QuoteGreenville Southern Connector headed for bankruptcy - default likely Jan 1 2010
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US Bank, trustees for the bondholders of Connector 2000 Association, the owner of the Southern Connector tollroad in Greenville South Carolina have issued an official notice that they expect a default Jan 1, 2010 with insufficient funds being available from the pike to make debt service that's due. They say the Association concluded that converting the not-for-profit into a for-profit toll concession to avoid default - as occurred with the Pocahontas Parkway in Richmond VA - is not feasible.
In or outside bankruptcy there will be a forced "restructuring" of the bond capital, the US Bank trustees say.
Investors will take a hit. (NOTE: US Bank would like us to note that they did not use the word "forced" of the capital restructing, though that's what we think it is! Also we have corrected the second sentence to reflect that the Association concluded sale to a for-profit concession was infeasible ahead of bankruptcy restructuring, not US Bank - editor 2009-10-07)
South Carolina DOT has already declared "an insolvency Event of Default" in a letter of June 12 which called on the not-for-profit owners to seek a "plan of adjustment." SCDOT says it reserves the right to terminate the Association's License Agreement under which the Connector Association operates the tollroad. Macquarie Capital is working for the trustee.
Accountants blast Association
Things may be worse than the official reports. Association accountants Bradshaw Gordon & Clinkscales in a statement accompanying an Update on the association's financial condition say that accounting standards board (GASB) requirements have not been met, and warn that the effect of the pike's departure from accounting standards has not been determined.
They say in one passage: "Management has elected to omit substantially all of the disclosures and statements of cash flows required by accounting principles generally accepted in the US...."
Deficiency of $163m
The statement reports as of June 30 liabilities of $322m against assets of $160m for a net deficiency of $163m - comically they report cents as well as individual dollars. The largest liabilities are bonds of $304m but the Association also owes the state DOT some $8m in unpaid license fees and interest.
Interest ten times operating profit
Toll revenues in the first half of the year were running at barely $5m/yr against operating expenses of $3.2m for an annual operating surplus of just $1.8m. Interest expense was ten times that and net loss was running at $22.8m after interest, depreciation and amortization.
Accumulated deficits are $163m, and they are being added to at about 14%/year.
Toll revenues for the first half of 2009 were running at 4% below year-ago levels, pretty much within the normal range for tollroads around the country. Since then they have been flat or slightly above year ago monthly levels.
Trouble from the get-go, traffic below half forecast
The Connector looked to be in trouble from virtually the day it opened in March 2001.
Traffic had been forecast after 'ramp-up' at the end of the first year to be around 28k/day so traffic of 20k was expected in the beginning.
Traffic has always been below half forecast levels, starting at 10k and rising at about expected annual percentage rates, but from the disappointing base.
Eight years after opening traffic is 15k to 16k/day versus 33k forecast when the original financing was done in 1998.
The original traffic studies seem to have been fundamentally flawed.
Law suits on forecasts
Robert Bain - UK-based author of the recent book on toll road forecasting - tells TOLLROADSnews that he has been engaged as an expert witness twice in the last 18 months by lawyers contemplating taking legal action against traffic forecasters for over-optimistic predictions. Neither engagement resulted in lawsuit to date. "It's only a matter of time", says Bain.
Why forecasts failed
Our analysis is that the Connector (I-185) simply does not serve major commuter flows within the 540k pop metro area. These flows are on a southeast-northwest axis Simpsonville, Mauldin, Greenville and along US276 and I-385. This is mostly to the north and east of the Connector.
The Connector including the toll-free portion of I-185 swings too far south, southwest and west to compete for major internal metro area traffic.
Located to serve development, not to relieve congestion
The pike was loccated to serve new industrial and residential development on the southern and southwest fringe of the area, development which has occurred, but more slowly than the tollroad promoters predicted.
Higher paying truck traffic is tiny. 96% of vehicles are 2 axle.
Slower employment growth than predicted in the area has meant that for the most part the free roads have adequate capacity even for peaktime work trips. The exception is I-385 northbound through Mauldin in the
mornings weekdays.
But trips on the Connector are too much longer in distance to be an attractive alternative for most motorists.
Studies show the Connector corridor generally has good developmental potential still, although portions are handicapped by lack of utilities like sewer.
New Stantec T&R study
A traffic and revenue study by Stantec published in May this year found toll rates were too low to maximize revenues. Toll rates should be increased 50 to 75%, it recommended.
The Association has since gotten SCDOT permission for three 25c toll increases, the first immediately, a second Jan 1 2012 and a third Jan 2016. 25c toll increases could be implemented every four years thereafter. Ramp tolls would be increased proportionately.
Stantec now project toll revenue of $10.2m by 2016 based on 16.3k daily traffic and $20.3m in 2026 based on traffic of 25k/day.
The Stantec report contains no analysis or suggestion as to why the 1990s study was so wrong.
Indeed they don't even mention the existence of that report.
Maybe the bankruptcy court can exhume it?
Southern Connector website:
http://www.southernconnector.com
(http://www.tollroadsnews.com/sites/default/files/u2/200902onward/0910052mapSC.gif)
http://www.tollroadsnews.com/node/4390
For those who have followed the HSR corridor debates on this forum, the Southern Connector experience is one of the main reasons, many at Metro Jax are not in favor of an I-4 route. These are also the same reasons the feasibility of the Outer Beltway has been called into question.
QuoteWhy forecasts failed
Our analysis is that the Connector (I-185) simply does not serve major commuter flows within the 540k pop metro area. These flows are on a southeast-northwest axis Simpsonville, Mauldin, Greenville and along US276 and I-385. This is mostly to the north and east of the Connector.
The Connector including the toll-free portion of I-185 swings too far south, southwest and west to compete for major internal metro area traffic.
Located to serve development, not to relieve congestion
The pike was loccated to serve new industrial and residential development on the southern and southwest fringe of the area, development which has occurred, but more slowly than the tollroad promoters predicted.
Higher paying truck traffic is tiny. 96% of vehicles are 2 axle.
Slower employment growth than predicted in the area has meant that for the most part the free roads have adequate capacity even for peaktime work trips. The exception is I-385 northbound through Mauldin in the mornings weekdays.
But trips on the Connector are too much longer in distance to be an attractive alternative for most motorists.
The comments mentioned in bold also describe the Outer Beltway's path:
1. Does not serve main commuter flows...
2. Swings too far south to compete for major internal metro traffic...
3. Located to serve new development instead of relieving existing traffic hotspots....
4. New development has not occurred at the pace predicted in original estimates (sounds like the skyway)...
6. Less truck traffic than anticipated. Why pay when the free route gets you there just as fast?...
5. Route to far out of the way to be attractive alternative to most commuters....
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/687599705_XNjFq-L.jpg)
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/JAXPORT%20Maritime/GreenCOVEspringsNS.jpg)
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/JAXPORT%20Maritime/GreenCoveSprings_mothballFLEET.jpg)
Well the old Salt still has a memory, after a 1/2 night search, THIS IS THE GREEN COVE SPRINGS BASE property that will be killed by the Beltway. Oh and Lake, the answer wasn't quite right, it was 800 SHIPS! + Air Station.
Lake, I see it doing a couple of negative things right off the top. The worst is Clay County letting it box in the former Green Cove Springs Naval Air Station Lee Field. That runway wrap on the South fence, would prevent this beautiful facility, with all of it's wasted sundry infrastructure, from ever being expanded into a modern Jet Port or Master Jet Base. It may indeed be the best sight for either type of aviation related use.
There is not much chance of it relieving any pressure from SR21, to the North. Due to the long dip toward the Southwest between Green Cove Springs and SR16, there are so many wasted miles, that the truckers will avoid it like the plague.
Note that it also slices a whole new corridor through Black Creek, one of Florida highest rated natural wild rivers, canoe, and fishing streams. Worse still, it will chew up more of the realestate that lays east of Middleburg above the North Prong of Black Creek. This area is sacred soil to the military and NOBODY is shouting! In 1864, the Battle Of Middleburg, took place after a Federal raid on the village from a landing at Green Cove. Somewhere along the creek, east of Middleburg, loaded with "bounty" the Federals were jumped by the 2Nd Florida Cavalry and a section of the Marion Flying Artillery. While deaths were limited due to the small size, it is one of the few stand up battlefields left in Florida.
To the North, if that segment is EVER built makes much more sense as it could serve as a connector between Cecil Field, the CSX and NS huge containers and piggyback facilities in NW Jax and perhaps somehow hook back into 295, Dunn, Hecksher, for an easy sprint to the port. Something like THAT could even be built as multimodal from the start. Hell, we might even get back on the I-22 Map.
The Southern route is a disaster waiting to happen.
OCKLAWAHA
Greenville escapade is a classic example of "Build it and they may come"! That part of the world is even more depressed then Florida, at least last time I was through there it sure did look like that! We don't need building for the sake of building, we need to have some vision and some kind of a plan not just knee jerking responce to perceived issue's!
Failures like this will make it even harder for the Jax. Outer Beltway to move forward.
Quote from: CS Foltz on November 04, 2009, 06:57:27 AM
Greenville escapade is a classic example of "Build it and they may come"! That part of the world is even more depressed then Florida, at least last time I was through there it sure did look like that!
I sure didn't see that on my visit...maybe you should make a trip
We don't need more roads. We can't take care of the ones we have and it will only encourage more sprawl. Imagine if the billions spent on road projects had been put even in part towards public transportation that encouraged denser centralized growth. We'd have a livable, vibrant city surrounded by real countryside, rather than the sprawling concrete mess we have now.
Thats why most of us who wanted the road were/are pissed they changed the routing. The bridge should have been in Fleming Island, not Green Cove Springs.
Developers got their hands in too much on this road.
No comments? I still think closing in the old base is very short sighted, even suicidal to more upper income growth. A restored airport, with runways lengthened from 5,000 to 8,000 feet, fixed base operator, lighting, beacon etc. could cause the boom Green Cove Has needed since the Navy left town.
Another consideration, the Navy's search for a new master air base in the Jacksonville area. Look at the land east and south of the old base. The approaches are over either water or pine trees. Clay County should be asking itself, now that it OWNS the airport after all of these years, "Would 30,000 certain jobs help our economy?"
OCKLAWAHA
::) IDEA! IDEA!?
There would be no better way to shoot this southern alternative in the head, then for MJ and our "force" to do a study and articles, comments, and see some threads on the old air base, aka: "Sleeping Giant of Green Cove Springs. So many opportunities, MAJOR OPPORTUNITIES, that have sat dormant since 1965. The new PORT OF GREEN COVE SPRINGS, Clay County Port Authority, is already making some headway across the street in the old Naval station portion. Think of the development ad's they can run that not even Jacksonville can touch... Need to tie up your ship? We have room for 800! Need rail to port? We have it! Need rail to barge to air? We have that too! Guys, this is HUGE, we could move that highway.
OCKLAWAHA
I see no value to this roadway whatsover, because it meanders around in the southern end, it will probably be quicker to just contiue going North on 95 go up to 295 and hit 10 that way and vice versa. I think it is a terrible mistake and since the road is already partway built, with Better Jacksonville taxes no less, it seems like they are going to toll a road that is already paid for in some spots. Doesn't make any sense to me.
The bri
Quote from: jandar on November 04, 2009, 09:20:35 AM
Thats why most of us who wanted the road were/are pissed they changed the routing. The bridge should have been in Fleming Island, not Green Cove Springs.
Developers got their hands in too much on this road.
Very true it would then serve people already there and suffering from traffic in Flemming Island and Julington creek. Out west it would serve Oakleaf and Cecil. I still wouldn't love the project but the rational would not have been build more sprawl. And my friends
more sprawl is the only reason this project was ever conceived.
In this case, the Developers wanted to route the road AWAY from their project.
tufsu1 ....the last time I was in that area was 9 yrs ago and that area was depressed even then! There may be some building taking place but does not appear to be enough there to make a difference one way or the other! That part of the world seems to be a lost cause for a variety of reasons - that route does not take into account the population demographics or the centers! Building a road, especially a TOLL ROAD, without figures to substantiate that road going in, is silly and a waste of money! Rail for Dames Point should have been a gimme from the start but was not........road was the first choice not rail and they are just trying now to integrate rail into the transportation picture.........no vision and darn sure no plan! Choice of rail or road for transporting many many containers should have been rail from the on start, trucks for local only not intermodal use out bound to who knows how many miles. Green Cove Springs has much more potential than Jacksonville has between possible Airport and related services, Shipping for both storage and useage and so on! Developers will have a field day outside of the area and then some!
(http://www.freewebs.com/007sniper/bearcat.jpg)
Final approach over the St. Johns...
I keep saying, OLD NAVAL AIR STATION and NAVAL BASE, GREEN COVE SPRINGS! Wave that under the developers noses... Wake the hell up and smell the money...
"Oh God, something JUST roared over my house by 6 mile creek! Swore to God that I just saw two Bearcats and an Avenger, heading west!"
(http://www.treehugger.com/jet-landing-080910.jpg)
Isn't Green Cove Springs beautiful?
(http://www.militaryhomes.us/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/medium-jet-landing.jpg)
CLAY COUNTY, Green Cove Springs, "Hello", anyone home? This could be your future calling!
More SOCO please!
OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: tufsu1 on November 04, 2009, 07:02:10 PM
In this case, the Developers wanted to route the road AWAY from their project.
Rivertown but definitely not the larger Silverleaf. My old firm did some marketing renderings for them back in 2006. The Outer Beltway is supposed to go right through the middle of their development.
http://www.silverleafplantation.com/location.php
What a waste of land and resources.
Excellent article Lake! Thanks for posting it. It should have been a MJ featured headline article.
9B is bad, the Outer Beltway is an urban sprawl disaster. Clay and St. Johns leaders are out to destroy the little sanity left in their counties. Don't they realize not only will this make their counties innocuous little blips surrounding Jax, but this road will just lead to mostly more rooftops, not jobs, and feed all those people into Duval for the jobs Clay and St. Johns want.
Clay and St. Johns are forever destined to be sprawling suburbs. Want to be unique? Develop ecotourism around your remaining natural assets. Forget industrial and office jobs and thousands of acres of boring tract housing that will one day be the slum of the future and work on preserving your natural lands.
A few favored people will get rich while all the other sleep-at-the-wheel suckers (I mean residents) will get taken to the cleaners and pay now and forever for the consequences. You couldn't pay me to move to either county knowing the train wreck coming down the ROADS (Outer Beltway and 9B). 8) :o
Nice picture of that F8F....allways did think that was one of the best designs for a round engine airplane ever made, Darryl Greenamyer (I think I spelt it correctly)had world prop driven speed record at one time in a modified Bearcat but I divert, Outer Beltway is a road to developer Paradise or the bank however you view it! I am not against controlled or planned expansion but somehow we seem to have lost a vision, if there ever was one somewhere and the next generations after ours will be the proud recipient of what we do today.............somehow I think they will be the ones losing out on what Florida itself has to offer!
Now I understand CS....
You have determined that Greenville, SC is a depressed area that has little to no hope of changing due to a lack of vision....anyone that has been there in the last decade would likely disagree...whcih calls into serious question your observations/viewpoints regarding the future of Jacksonville.
Quote from: tufsu1 on November 05, 2009, 04:00:36 PM
Now I understand CS....
You have determined that Greenville, SC is a depressed area that has little to no hope of changing due to a lack of vision....anyone that has been there in the last decade would likely disagree...which calls into serious question your observations/viewpoints regarding the future of Jacksonville.
Wow tusfu1, you keep being so nice in your posts and you might catch up to me! ROFLMFAO!
Seriously, since when is a misidenity of a place you don't live, grounds to silence your opinion of your current home? I can tell all of you about Jacksonville, California, cool main street, beautiful mountains, great hiking on the old Hetch Hetchy Railroad, hippie invasion, etc... But you'd have to wear scuba gear to see the town site today!OCKLAWAHA
The outer beltway emerged on the earliest local goverment planning act county government planning maps as early as the early 1970's in Clay county.Reinhold Corp./Jack Myers key players-pivotal events include the Trust For Public Lands 1800 acre Brannon/Chaffee option blowing up,Clay County Brannon/Chaffee Sector Plans,Jacksonville's Gennesis/Brian Wheeler (both Clay County and Myers as client),Lake Asbury Secror Plan "1" & "2"....#"1" curiously deemed non authorized by state DCA at the tail end of months long proceedings,including "time out" when spiorited citizens called the county and 'consultant" on the entrenched Ravines Conservation area routing-per the 70's map.
Also see Reinhold's attempts at swaping lands for the Ravines in order to acommodtae the earlier route.
Of course the beltway would not serve existing traffic- the project drivers are key land owners-the intent would be to generate more development and traffic.
Here is a lesson for all of you anti beltway dreamers who have truly been "asleep":
YOU MISSED OPPORTUNITY FOR LEGALLY BINDING "NO BUILD" OPTION A FEW YEARS AND PUBLIC MEETINGS AGO.
And I doubt the MJ drive by forum can really contribute any effective outcome.
Besides-I don't know or trust all who drive through here.
MJ can't do anything about the Outer Beltway. However, the economy can. Where are the people ready to lose their shirts, just like the investors in Greenville?
When pressed on Beltway matters by irate citizens Clay County officials are quick to comment to the effect that nothing will happen for twenty five years.
The same lame approach is taken with thr 'no investors'/bad economy outlook.
Massive effort and legal vesting of future development related to the beltway has 'quietly' emerged.
No doubt. However, if the state isn't going to pay for it, someone from the private sector has to pony up the billion to construct the thing. Then they have to pray that development happens fast enough so they can make their money back on tolls. That's a huge risk to take when staying on regular highways can take a significant amount of traffic to the same location in less time without tolls. I think this is the underlying reason why it doesn't exist today. If the risk were not that great, it would be under construction already.
Question: If the Outer Beltway fails to get built now, how long does the concept hang around before it is gone forever? The state doesn't already own the right of way, does it? It's just a line on the page right now, correct? If a land owner in its path chooses to build on his land a housing development, etc. that makes eminent domain impractical, does the road's feasibility begin to dissipate?
Bottom line, what would it take to kill the Outer Beltway for good at this point?
But, don't the developers along the path want the beltway? Why would they do something to thwart it?
Mr Charles, I would bet the developers do want it......they just don't want to pay for it! It would play hell with their bottoms lines! I mean why would they spend their money when they can get Federal,State and local funds to do it for them. I mean this is similar to DR Horton and his grandiose plans for the Old Bay Meadows Golf Course! His plan was to build 1200 High Dollar Duplex's and 1800 Apartments. His traffic flow expert stood in front of the Council and made a statement regarding the increase in peak traffic flow......that number was 900 and change. Project was also to use "Concurrency" to enhance Bay Meadows traffic, at both ends north side of I95 and south of Southside Blvd. Plan was flawed and the Mayor did the only thing that I have ever agreed with and that was veto the proposal. It took 8000 plus people to band together to halt that one and just proved to me beyond doubt...........a developer will spend whatever for land but then depend on other sources to fund their vision......the easy part is buying the land, its everything else that can get expensive! Nocatee was the same way.......who built the new High Rise Bridge? It was not the developer......he had a finger in the roads maybe but that was inclusive in being able to build the development back then.....wouldn't happen now!
Brannon/Chaffee has been a focus and 'driver' of the beltway- the promotions of "alleviation" have been erroneous at worse,over stated at best.But it worked perfectly!!
B/C was promoted as a 'much needed' ,'alternative' to SR 21/Blanding Blvd....after all,Clay County only had two major arterial roadways.
In the early 70's Clay county floated proposals for an "alternative" to Blanding Blvd. that may have in fact proven truly alternative- a new roadway parallel,close to and west of Blanding.Problem was the "Little Black Creek" wetland belts would have created engineering and cost issue,compounded by the emergence of new wetland protection laws.
With the emergence of Gulfstream Land Development/Argyle,the Brannon/Chaffee route to the west,along a chunk of upland was selected.For a time (Clay County Planner Dick Post,Pajcic era Duval delegation) there was concern and consideration for the wide swath of wetland belts.regional recharge.All recent efforts at development have come with the seal of "Growth Management" and wetland belt 'protection'/"mitigation" approval- we have built a new city in the heart of regional ground water recharge and if given the opportunity,Clay officials would push for more.
B/C was never conceived as an alternative to Blanding.It's role as "alleviation" over promoted,declining contribution-As repoted in the FTU,Calvin Burney/Jax MPO stated 30,000 vehicles would use the proposed new roadway "as soon as it opens"-the fact is 30,000 ADT (average daily traffic) was a modeled number....further in the future-as a result of new development spurred by the roadway.Of course the FTU never retracted the erroneous image.(I do like to think that I had a hand in getting Burney removed from his MPO post.Cheap 'victory')
Recall Mayor Delaney,at the height of the Preservation Jacksonville and love fest with enviros,exclaimed 'we can't build our way out of congestion'. The mayor's role in key elements of Beltway permitting,which extended all the way to a federal agency which would soon provide the Delaney administration with a public works director-for a short time- is also telling.For later.After all, the interest shown on the MJ format is exactly,perfectly too late.
The quiet transformation of counties that have made their mark in selling against big bad 'ol Duval county and Duval's myopic boosterism is fascinating.
Quote from: stjr on November 05, 2009, 10:31:31 PM
Bottom line, what would it take to kill the Outer Beltway for good at this point? [/b]
I'm not sure the project will ever be truly killed...I mean, people in D.C. occasionally bring up the idea of I-95 being extended thjrough the district
Tthis is the power that lines on a map have long-term...people say "we must built it"...which is why it is so important that commuter rail and other transit lines are being drawn up now.
There is a lot of right of way already owned by the state.
The FDOT owns right of way from I-10 to Blanding Blvd, enough for a 4 lane highway and service road.
http://www.fdotfirstcoastouterbeltway.com/forum_docs/Handout%206%20-%20Right%20of%20Way.pdf
Shows current and needed right of way. They need the part from Blanding to Green Cove (but once again, its developers who own a lot of the land there).
So even if you kill the entire expressway, the part from I10 to Blanding would likely be completed.
199 Million needed for the Clay County part, 170 million for the Duval part. The rest of that part has already been built out.
Alternative transportation-
If not by now-when??
After years of involvement and insight with Clay county matters,I sold the family place on Black Creek and moved to Avondale.
I am aware of many 'fleeing' from Clay or making concerted decision to avert Clay location.
We need commuter rail to Fleming Island, that would alleviate a ton of traffic up 17 and from middleburg area.
While some flee into Duval, many are still moving ouot from Duval to St Johns and Clay.
Many of us are screwed either way.
My wife teaches in Clay County. If I moved close to work off of 9A, she would commute.
We need other transportation for all of NE Florida other than more roads.
When we go rail, remember JTA must be up to the job of redeployment of that large bus fleet so people in places like Flemming Island and Middleburg, will be able to catch a bus in front of their neighborhood that will reliably put them at the train station on time, every time. This is where they should be attending to the proposed BRT routes. I would scrap most of the BRT trunk lines they have drawn, and replace it with rail, BRT then becomes the "secondary mainlines", collectors to heavy population centers, and heavily traveled routes to rail. We must not build any more "Blanding type" bus lanes, until JTA is ready to assume 10-20 minute headways. You just don't build expressways for one bus per hour.
OCKLAWAHA
Ock I agree! Bus Rapid Transit is a contradiction in terms and no bus can run at train speeds or with the passanger loads that a train can haul! Bus versus train is not a contest from either hauling capacity or efficiency!
Or economic development. There's nothing wrong with BRT, when developed to do what it is supposed to do. The critical flaw occurs when proponents attempt parade it around as an equal alternative to rail. Instead of being either/or, try complementing by using BRT to funnel riders into rail trunk lines (as Ock stated above). This solution is superior in terms of transit and economic development.
"Bus" and "rapid" would seem to be impossible to use in a sentence together. "BRT" is just another marketing term to over promise results we will never see. Just like the futuristic sounding "$ky-high-way" that has delivered a dud of inefficient, unreliable, useless technology, not the space age advancement in travel it's name would imply.
Quote from: stjr on November 07, 2009, 08:00:27 PM
"Bus" and "rapid" would seem to be impossible to use in a sentence together. "BRT" is just another marketing term to over promise results we will never see. Just like the futuristic sounding "$ky-high-way" that has delivered the depths of dispair, not the crsytal blue sky days it's name would imply.
Lest we forget: Greenland was another such misnomer.
In the late 1970's/early 80's Clay County Planning Director Dick Post warned that we were 'buying the farm' .....through unwise land use decisions on the local level,which would compromise transportation and a host of regional interests.
In case no one has ever notice........History has a habit of repeating itself!
OK-so it's a given.....many should reconsider their move to Clay County.
I have been steering folk away for a long time.
This is a needed service- to 'predict the future' via knowledge of obscure "planning" process- letting people know the details of the fact that what they see...and are sold....will not be what you get.
Bumper sticker: Welcome to the First Coast-where Miami begins!!
The reason the southern route has staying power is simple: Jack Myers/Reinhold Corp.
We had to work mightily to keep the alignment out of the Ravines Conservation area,including brazen bid to WMD by Myers to swap lands for Ravines,which we fought back and that is why the original gentle arc one depicted has become gerrymandered but a southerly route is retained.
All one has to do is track key Reinhold land holdings and events.
Florida Trend pronounced Jack Myers "the man to watch" as he transitioned from Disney and focused on the Clay land holdings.
Also interesting to track speculative land purchases in anticipation of the extension of Kingsley Avenue to B/C- this did not happen but the two separate parcels with boundary on the proposed Kingsley centerline are still a part of Clay public records.Official Record Book & page 557-539 and 574-27
For the truly inquisitive- follow land title and learn what happened to parcels along the Brannon/Chaffee;OR Book & Page 270-214,695-285,63-83.
Many blind trusts-hard to reveal the direct players without other narratives revealed.
Or consider the fact that the Trust For Public Lands held option on 1800 acres- for a short time.
This is just for starters.
Yes.
Note too the mantra of "Inevitable Growth" that 'must come".
Beyond that Biz Jornals and the like of very little comprehensive reporting involvement or value.
We assume that the public's government must grant('vest') additional development rights in the face of "inevitable" parade of growth.
Jack Myers & Co. have been key drivers behind the beltway.He made brazen attempt to force the alignment through the Ravines.The more he speaks of his honor the more we take cover and assume the worst.
By the way- the highly touted master plans 'adopted by the county' in fact were sector plans authorized bty the state DCA and subject to DCA review,observations,comments and recs.
Brannon/Chaffe and Lake Asbury.
State had to excercise keen oversight- Florida Wildlife Federation lodged key objections.Had it not been for this involvement the county's face value version would have proven of even more impact.
and- Lake Asbury Sector Plan # 1,after months of activity and contentious public hearings which threatened the predetermined ravines route outcome,including a 'time out' for review by the 'planning pros' at regional Planning Council....was deemed NEVER AUTHORIZED BY DCA.FTU was great in reporting the opening of Sector Plan events...but lagged later.FTU Binyamin Applebaum was frank with me as to the column inches cut and left on the floor at the FTU.
Clay's county Planning director Thad Crowe during all of this had come from Prosser Hallock Planners and Consultants (Nocatee).Prosser Hallock was retained by the county for Lake Assbury #1,with Thad at the helm of the county post.Earlier Brannon/Chaffee Sector Plan saw Genesis Group selected by the county.Genesis group did interject in Assbury on behalf of.....??
Mr Myers appear to be playing both sides of the fence........not to mention making sure his pockets stay full!
Quote from: stephendare on November 17, 2009, 05:55:25 PM
The Jacksonville Chamber of Commerce lists Myers on its Board of Trustees.
http://www.myjaxchamber.com/trustees.asp?id=20&how=&alpha=R&catid=&intPageNum=1&intItemsPerPage=1000
By my count, on this "sample" page, it appears no less than 11 of 17 (not counting the bankers) have connections, direct or indirect, to development in the area. Is there any wonder why we get urban sprawl and projects like the Outer Beltway?
REGIONAL ROOTS-yet another "face' of the beltway to now appear.
The connection to the Clay Chamber at times comical to those in the know.....like a CARL Hiaasen novel.
By the way-this writer featured- by name-in Hiaasen's hard copy edition of "Kick Ass"
-"Jacksonville's Millionth Mania"
Quote from: stjr on November 17, 2009, 08:25:11 PM
Quote from: stephendare on November 17, 2009, 05:55:25 PM
The Jacksonville Chamber of Commerce lists Myers on its Board of Trustees.
http://www.myjaxchamber.com/trustees.asp?id=20&how=&alpha=R&catid=&intPageNum=1&intItemsPerPage=1000
By my count, on this "sample" page, it appears no less than 11 of 17 (not counting the bankers) have connections, direct or indirect, to development in the area. Is there any wonder why we get urban sprawl and projects like the Outer Beltway?
Quote from: north miami on November 18, 2009, 06:32:29 PM
Quote from: stjr on November 17, 2009, 08:25:11 PM
Quote from: stephendare on November 17, 2009, 05:55:25 PM
The Jacksonville Chamber of Commerce lists Myers on its Board of Trustees.
http://www.myjaxchamber.com/trustees.asp?id=20&how=&alpha=R&catid=&intPageNum=1&intItemsPerPage=1000
By my count, on this "sample" page, it appears no less than 11 of 17 (not counting the bankers) have connections, direct or indirect, to development in the area. Is there any wonder why we get urban sprawl and projects like the Outer Beltway?
Tracking land ownership via Official Book & Page and connecting to other narratives and events is telling too.
And sometimes the county land maps depict clear images.One of my favorites is Clay County Official Record Book & Page 557-539 and 574-27.Here we see these two parcels joined at what would be the centerline of the ill fated proposed westward extension of Kingsley Avenue/S-228A per Clay County Resolution of April 27,1982.
The blind trusts are more challenging.
A SOLUTION WOULD BE TRAFFIC CONTROL!
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/UPICESignalBridge-1.jpg)
OCKLAWAHA
GOB Network is far reaching and insidious! Tell tales such as Tax's and Land Ownership refute just what the public lip service is paid. Developers are in business to make money by developing, plain and simple, most have no long range point of view that is for the public good but a view of what can put the most money in their pockets! I can not fault them but I can help control them! I think that any developer should be required to submit plans which would show just how their development would dovetail into ex sisting infrastructure 20 years from conception! How would their development affect that area 30 yrs down range! Are the existing roads sufficient, water, power and sewer...........is there adequate fire protection........I have no problem with expansion but do with unbridled uncontrolled expansion! Build a road and poof.......newest high faluting named community!