Well I talked to Kevin Gay's real estate guy this morning about the proposal to move the recently displaced Panera into the old Boomtown Building on Main.
They have submitted a proposal, although it is now in the hands of their local real estate agent and their corporate guys out in the midwest.
I wonder if Don Downing and his pet boy have followed the conversation as closely as the others.
It seems like a concerted neighborhood bid to entice the company would be something useful they could do.
Moving on this was discussed internally at SPAR on the day the news came out. If you're just getting to it today, Stephen, seems you're about 2 weeks behind.
I hope the corporate guys and local franchisee are open to the idea. Will parking be an issue on Main? It was very much an issue at Hendricks location. Anyone worried about it being a chain?
I don't particularly want a full street of chains but a couple good ones mixed in with unique upstarts is fine by me.
I like Panera, but if I used to go to the one in San Marco, I would not go downtown just for Panera. Has to be something more than something I can find somewhere else as well. Now if Panera were close to Chamblin-Downtown, that might be more of a draw.
It'd be great for me but at the same time I wonder how they'd deal with campers? I know on Roosevelt I've come in in the morning and if I made a return trip later in the day, sometimes I've seen the same folks in there. I know Hardee's used to have an issue with bums sitting in there all day nursing their "bottomless cup of coffee", Panera would wind up in a worse scenario with all their comfy chairs and so on.
Dunn Avenue Starbucks is shuttered and gonzo! I stopped there 1st time back in Septermber only to find it out of business!
Really? Holy crap. I don't get over to Dunn that much but we went there a couple of times earlier in the year and it was always clean and had a friendly staff.
There is a Panera at the Northside mall near the Airport but that is still a pretty far drive. We go to Panera in San Marco all the time and will miss it, but not near as much since Uptown Market opened. I would love to see Panera open in Springfield though. I would think they'd have plenty customers from motorists heading into downtown. One of my friends called the corporate office when he was told by employees that the San Marco location was closing to suggest Springfield to them. When he told me this I thought no way would it ever happen but now I at least have some hope.
there is the Panera in the Stein mart complex near the Riverside Publix, in case you just cannot be without Panera. Of course you could then go to the original Chamblin just a stone's throw from there.
I don't think campers would be a problem. I don't think they are a problem at Uptown Market. Or at 3 Layers.
Ok, so to clear it up:
The Starbucks on Dunn is closed, obviouisly they didn't do so well.
There is a Panera on the Northside, in the Rivercity Market, which has a variety of other destinations as well. Given equal distance, I would guess that that location would draw better than one on Main.
While I would welcome a Panera, I think the odds are stacked against it. Maybe in 3 years. =(
Maybe, maybe not. 3 Layers is kinda tucked away though, they don't have the flow of people like Main St does. I've only walked through Uptown so I don't know too much about them though. I do hope we get something nice there and I hope it stays nice, that's all.
You know, I didn't think of that angle. With all the publicity 3 Layers has received maybe Panera sees there is a market for their services. Uptown Market has gotten a lot of PR also and is packed for lunch on a regular basis. Could others be taking notice?
If Panera is looking at Main, their eyes are looking at a much larger market than Springfield. They would be looking to serve a large market on this side of the river from the Trout River to DT. Hopefully, things will work out for a change.
Why would you want a national chain to come into your area and hurt 2 locally owned and operated breakfast/lunch spots?
You can't have vibrancy with only two places spread out over a square mile. Personally, I prefer and support local, but I would also like to see an abundance of places open up. I think Jax's urban market is strong enough to support more than two places. Plus, the more options you have creates a critical mass, which creates a district, which creates more profitability for all.
^Good comparison with the Riverside example.
I would think more people visiting the neighborhood would help pull more potential customers their way. While one may go to visit a new spot on the first try, they are exposed to what's already there and may be willing to come back on another visit to try another spot.
Yeah and everyone likes different stuff. Panera doesn't serve breakfast like Uptown does, you can only get muffins and sandwiches there and I'd imagine Panera would pull in folks from downtown for lunch, once people see Uptown and the crowds there, they'll be curious as to their food as well.
Although, the more I think about it- being able to walk up the street and get their french onion soup in a bread bowl? That's just dangerous.
Quote from: thirdeye on November 03, 2009, 09:13:16 PM
Why would you want a national chain to come into your area and hurt 2 locally owned and operated breakfast/lunch spots?
oddly enough some people may actually like panera and would like a choice.
Obviously this would be the case. This whole area is underserved. I have a friend who always says, "one lawyer in town goes broke, two and they both make a little money but get several and they all get rich" I think this is pretty true with all businesses.
Quote from: thelakelander on November 03, 2009, 09:01:35 PM
If Panera is looking at Main, their eyes are looking at a much larger market than Springfield. They would be looking to serve a large market on this side of the river from the Trout River to DT. Hopefully, things will work out for a change.
Besides it would be a greater pull for the downtown lunch crowd.
Who cares if it is a chain. Bring it to Main St. Great idea Fsujax! I remember bringing this up to Stephen and telling him to make some phone calls. Looks like it might pay off.
Clustered restaurants don't really compete with one another. Five Points is called the "stomach of Riverside". There have to be a dozen or so restaurants within a couple of blocks. "Let's go to Five Points for lunch." Then they go to a restaurant that they didn't go to yesterday. The cluster becomes a destination, benefiting all the restaurants there.
I haven't a problem or concern with it being a chain, and don't really foresee that being a problem for Main street either. I happen to feel it would be a nice addition to the other shops (Three Layers, Uptown, Waffas, etc) as it's a different venue. They're all unique in their own way, which is why they're doing well. It would be a positive to have more options for our neighborhood.
I hope they do put one on Main in addition to the one they are sure to put in San Marco.
I don't see the reasoning people complain about it being a chain. Panera is a quality restaurant and has a loyal following, and quite a few of those are likely to follow it to a possible location in Springfield. They're also descent developments and will probably bring in other businesses as Springfield evolves. Chains are a fact of life, so be thankful Panera is even giving Springfield a glance.
You want that five points vibe with locals like Moss fire, Al's Pizza, Pizza Palace ect. Mixing with Five Guys, Eisenstein's bagels, Wendy's ect.
I went to that Subway yesterday because Moss Fire was too busy.
Quote from: stephendare on November 04, 2009, 01:45:49 PM
I dont think anyone really is.
The comment came from the unhatched 'retail development coordinator' of Springfield, Zoo, whose opinion is famously negative and usually wrong.
Most people would like a Panera. There isnt any real debate about it.
Im the most anti corporate person there is, but a corporate anchor is a good thing.
In five points the tipping point was, believe it or not, Subway sandwiches.
+1
I summarized zoo/SPAR's position months ago back in the thrift store thread, when I called him out saying: "For the good of Springfield, we should shut down everything until such time as it either becomes a Neiman Marcus or the buildings collapse in on themselves".
Honestly, WTF? We don't want 'mom & pops', but we don't want 'chains' either, we don't want 'this', but we also don't want 'that'. "We don't want"..."we don't want"..."we don't want." That's the new Springfield mantra. Then Strider asked people "Well, what DO you want then?" and I don't think there was really a coherent answer. And it's not just zoo, either, I'm not trying to pick on anyone in particular. It's this whole group over there who are just negative all the time about everything.
I will re-post the same picture I posted then too. Doesn't it just look ridiculous when people make a big deal of withholding something that nobody was chasing after in the first place:
(http://officespam.chattablogs.com/archives/Lips-That-Touch-Liquor-Shall-Not-Touch-Ours-thumb.jpg)
People should be happy there's someone willing to take a chance over there, not just armchair quarterbacking and complaining about how it could always be better. Everything could always be better. I could win lotto for $100 million, that sure as $h!t would make things better. But then I'd have to start b!tching cause' it wasn't $200 million, right? At what point do you start being happy with what you have?
Yeah, we are a real bunch of assholes Chris. You nailed it.
Quote from: zoo on November 03, 2009, 05:05:08 PM…I hope the corporate guys and local franchisee are open to the idea
Quote from: Matt McVay on November 03, 2009, 05:48:27 PM
Definitely…
Quote from: thekillingwax on November 03, 2009, 06:34:04 PM
It'd be great for me…
Quote from: Springfield Girl on November 03, 2009, 07:13:57 PM
I would love to see Panera open in Springfield though.
Quote from: fsu813 on November 03, 2009, 08:07:57 PMWhile I would welcome a Panera, I think the odds are stacked against it.
Quote from: cindi on November 03, 2009, 11:13:04 PM
oddly enough some people may actually like panera and would like a choice.
Quote from: fsujax on November 04, 2009, 07:59:26 AM
Who cares if it is a chain. Bring it to Main St.
Quote from: Springfielder on November 04, 2009, 08:45:00 AMI happen to feel it would be a nice addition to the other shops
Quote from: JeffreyS on November 04, 2009, 01:19:03 PM
I hope they do put one on Main in addition to the one they are sure to put in San Marco.
The only comment about it being a chain from Zoo was in the form of a question. She clearly supports itQuote from: zoo on November 03, 2009, 05:05:08 PM…I hope the corporate guys and local franchisee are open to the idea….
… Anyone worried about it being a chain?
The only true negative comment about it was from this poster, who may or may not even be a resident!Quote from: thirdeye on November 03, 2009, 09:13:16 PM
Why would you want a national chain to come into your area and hurt 2 locally owned and operated breakfast/lunch spots?
Having Panera come to Springfield would be a great for us!! Chains can bring a level of commercial stability that mom and pop start ups cannot. They also bring a predictable target audience that mom and pops can grow and thrive on. I doubt you'll find very many people at all in the neighborhood that wouldn't love to see this happen.
The only real concern should be how their location fits in the neighborhood and promotes many of the urban planning strategies that Lake has promoted.
Beyond that, how can the neighborhood voice it's support to their corporate folks and would it have any influence?
This would be a great thing for Main St. i really hope the old Boomtown location is seriously considered. As far it effecting the local businesses....i don't think they would be in danger of losing customers. 3 layers and Uptown draw more of a upwardly mobile/cool crowd. Panera would cater to those who work in the area, who aren't necessarily accustomed to independent places and who feel more comfortable with chain establishments.
Just think....you could have coffee in the morning @ 3 layers, lunch @ Uptown...and curl up with a cup of tea and a book at Panera in the evening. :D
Quote from: Omarvelous09 on November 04, 2009, 03:40:04 PM
This would be a great thing for Main St. i really hope the old Boomtown location is seriously considered. As far it effecting the local businesses....i don't think they would be in danger of losing customers. 3 layers and Uptown draw more of a upwardly mobile/cool crowd. Panera would cater to those who work in the area, who aren't necessarily accustomed to independent places and who feel more comfortable with chain establishments.
Just think....you could have coffee in the morning @ 3 layers, lunch @ Uptown...and curl up with a cup of tea and a book at Panera in the evening. :D
...and then go next door, to Team Recovery Thrift Store, and see work by local artists (Roland's "Berkman" piece, or his "Blood of Jesus" piece, Ms. Yang's (from the restaurant) origami (amazing!), and buy a pair of cheap $4.00 been-worn-before-but-it-just-makes-them-softer jeans.
Dan,
thanks for proving Chriswuf wrong, he always seems to find a way to bash....even if there is no reason to.
Quote from: Dan B on November 04, 2009, 02:33:59 PM
Yeah, we are a real bunch of assholes Chris. You nailed it.
Quote from: zoo on November 03, 2009, 05:05:08 PM…I hope the corporate guys and local franchisee are open to the idea
Quote from: Matt McVay on November 03, 2009, 05:48:27 PM
Definitely…
Quote from: thekillingwax on November 03, 2009, 06:34:04 PM
It'd be great for me…
Quote from: Springfield Girl on November 03, 2009, 07:13:57 PM
I would love to see Panera open in Springfield though.
Quote from: fsu813 on November 03, 2009, 08:07:57 PMWhile I would welcome a Panera, I think the odds are stacked against it.
Quote from: cindi on November 03, 2009, 11:13:04 PM
oddly enough some people may actually like panera and would like a choice.
Quote from: fsujax on November 04, 2009, 07:59:26 AM
Who cares if it is a chain. Bring it to Main St.
Quote from: Springfielder on November 04, 2009, 08:45:00 AMI happen to feel it would be a nice addition to the other shops
Quote from: JeffreyS on November 04, 2009, 01:19:03 PM
I hope they do put one on Main in addition to the one they are sure to put in San Marco.
The only comment about it being a chain from Zoo was in the form of a question. She clearly supports it
Quote from: zoo on November 03, 2009, 05:05:08 PM…I hope the corporate guys and local franchisee are open to the idea….
… Anyone worried about it being a chain?
The only true negative comment about it was from this poster, who may or may not even be a resident!
Quote from: thirdeye on November 03, 2009, 09:13:16 PM
Why would you want a national chain to come into your area and hurt 2 locally owned and operated breakfast/lunch spots?
Nice cut & paste job there Dan, you sure are talented...at selectively picking posts that back up your point, while ignoring contradictory ones, that is. And while your list does include some of the people I had in mind when I made that comment, a couple forum notables didn't make your list, and another big chunk of the group I had in mind when I wrote that don't even post on this forum.
And I could go back and find posts from at least a couple of those posters, where they've reversed course or contradicted themselves here or in other threads, but you can add me to the list of people who like to check MJ at the airport and my flight is boarding soon. I gotta get my bin space, these JAX-CLT runs usually go pretty full.
Just to do a quick job in the short time I've got:
Quote from: thirdeye on November 03, 2009, 09:13:16 PM
Why would you want a national chain to come into your area and hurt 2 locally owned and operated breakfast/lunch spots?
Quote from: zoo on November 03, 2009, 05:05:08 PM
Moving on this was discussed internally at SPAR on the day the news came out. If you're just getting to it today, Stephen, seems you're about 2 weeks behind.
Quote from: nvrenuf on November 03, 2009, 05:22:00 PM
I don't particularly want a full street of chains...
Quote from: mtraininjax on November 03, 2009, 06:03:42 PM
I like Panera, but if I used to go to the one in San Marco, I would not go downtown just for Panera. Has to be something more than something I can find somewhere else as well.
Quote from: thekillingwax on November 03, 2009, 06:34:04 PM
I wonder how they'd deal with campers? I know on Roosevelt I've come in in the morning and if I made a return trip later in the day, sometimes I've seen the same folks in there. I know Hardee's used to have an issue with bums sitting in there all day nursing their "bottomless cup of coffee", Panera would wind up in a worse scenario with all their comfy chairs and so on.
Quote from: fsu813 on November 03, 2009, 08:07:57 PM
While I would welcome a Panera, I think the odds are stacked against it. Maybe in 3 years. =(
So umm...yeah. I guess you just conveniently missed these posts?
And if you want, when I've got more time, I'd be happy to back up my point by quoting 234,321,658 posts from these same people from the "Thrift Store" thread, and we can just go from there to determine how receptive they are to new businesses opening up on main? lol
Quote from: fsu813 on November 04, 2009, 04:22:02 PM
Dan,
thanks for proving Chriswuf wrong, he always seems to find a way to bash....even if there is no reason to.
What??? Oh come on. This is the same thing as the other thread where I got accused of bashing. I was just pointing out that people shouldn't bash the thought of a new business opening up on Main, regardless of whether it is a corporate chain or not. Before, there was nothing, now there will be something. That's progress. But now, I'm somehow the one "bashing"?
You and Dan must be spending a lot of time together, you've picked up his strategy of "If I accuse them of doing what I'm already doing, before they get a chance to point out that I'm already doing it, then I win!".
ok on a non-national chain note.... I patronized the Yangs takee outee on Main tonight and was pleasantly suprised. Its definitely a family run place (the whole family was there, including kids) the prices were very good and their menu was pretty extensive. Had some enormous portions, orange chicken, chow mei fun etc.. a ton of food for 20 bucks. Its not gourmet Chinese, but its pretty good. If you're into supporting main st. local businesses, give this one a try you probably won't be disappointed.
Joe and I eat there at least once a week. Wonderful food. Great price.
The real question is - What will you do if Panda Express comes?? :o
There is nothing selective about my post. You made a snide remark about people being against Panera. Clearly, most of the posters here are not against it. The may have concerns and reservations, and may even talk about why they think that the corporation would chose to not move to springfield.... You do realize that you can be in favor of something, but still have thoughts on how it might do, right? It doesn't make it contradictory.
I really like ______, but I worry about how it would do in ______ ... its a perfectly reasonable thing to say.
Quote from: sheclown on November 04, 2009, 07:40:27 PM
Joe and I eat there at least once a week. Wonderful food. Great price.
I will definitely be going back. fo sho.
I tried it the first day it opened. The egg rolls are always the test gauge for me and they sucked. I hate Chans Egg Rolls also. I drive over to the little dive/drive through on Beach by the Save-a-Lot to get my egg roll fix. Shiang Yuan was the absolute best Chinese in Jax and I am still depressed that it closed. I'm lucky though cause my hubby cooks us great chinese every week with loads of fresh veggies and my favorite dark sauce.
Sorry, I digress. We'd better get back on subject before we get scolded.
Quote from: nvrenuf on November 03, 2009, 05:22:00 PM
I don't particularly want a full street of chains but a couple good ones mixed in with unique upstarts is fine by me.
Guess I have to quote myself since ChrisUF decided to cut it in half to suit his needs. And when it comes down to it I have as much right as anyone to say what I want and what I don't want. Doesn't mean I will get what I want because as sad as it is, in the grand scheme of things I really don't have that much pull.
Let me give a couple examples. I don't want to die (it will happen anyway). I do want to find a billion dollars stuffed in my wheel well tomorrow morning (odds are against it).
And as to my quote, if I wanted a bunch of chains and nothing unique I would live at the mall. I much prefer the ambiance of the Shoppes of Avondale or 5 Points with a mix of both. It is my opinion and have as much right to express it as you do yours.
Quote from: nvrenuf on November 04, 2009, 08:21:30 PM
I do want to find a billion dollars stuffed in my wheel well tomorrow morning (odds are against it).
So thats where I should be looking... my wheel well. Who knew? I have been checking under the sofa cushions.
Quote from: blizz01 on November 04, 2009, 07:42:46 PM
The real question is - What will you do if Panda Express comes?? :o
As long as they occupy existing buildings... i welcome the growth. Sometimes you need a good mixture of corporate & small businesses to round out a neighborhood. It would be nice to have some other than fried/BBQ chicken, McDonald's and Krystal's. Oh yea...Long John's. :-\
Quote from: Omarvelous09 on November 04, 2009, 08:58:01 PM
Quote from: blizz01 on November 04, 2009, 07:42:46 PM
The real question is - What will you do if Panda Express comes?? :o
As long as they occupy existing buildings... i welcome the growth.
Amen.
If the San Marco or 5 Points theatres got bought out by Regal Cinemas, or Bold City got bought out by Budweiser, then there'd be a valid reason to complain about corporate chains. Because then you'd actually have lost something of local flavor.
But when they're just taking over an empty building (of which there is hardly any shortage in S'field), I don't see how it could ever be a bad thing, or where there's any room to have any reservations about it. Worst-case scenario, even if they don't make it, then their deep pockets have already paid for the renovations and build-out, which makes it much more likely that others will want to take over that space later.
Win, meet win.
ETA: CLT is quiet tonight.
agreed.
Quote from: nvrenuf on November 04, 2009, 08:21:30 PM
Quote from: nvrenuf on November 03, 2009, 05:22:00 PM
I don't particularly want a full street of chains but a couple good ones mixed in with unique upstarts is fine by me.
Guess I have to quote myself since ChrisUF decided to cut it in half to suit his needs.
Hey, what can I say? Dan B's been teaching me all sorts of new tricks lately.
But kidding aside, you did express some sentiment against a "street full of chains" and that's the part I thought was relevant. I wasn't trying to change the meaning of your words, and don't think I did. Clearly, you have a reservation about the chain factor, as did multiple other people. That was all I was addressing.
nvrenuf,
yes, Chriswuf seems to have a ceratin way with words. a way that misrepresents the orginal posters words, that is. so it's not surprising that he took your comment out of context.
also not surprising, in his list of qoutes, he included 2 (mine & another) that were in favor of the Panera, yet he presented them to be a negative. he also said that Dan missed them.....but he actually used them in his orginal post. (whew).
I wish people would be more honest in how they communicate. I mean, i know ceratin people have clear agendas, but come on. Doesn't mean you have to be dishonest about it.
I actually don't think Chris has an agenda, at least, not on this issue. I think he is primarily a Dare sycophant. Aside from that, Its possible that somewhere along the line SPAR did him wrong, and he enjoys seeing SPAR get beat up. Aside from enjoying the tumult, however, he doesn't seem to have any clear mission.
Dishonesty seems to be the keyword in these articles. I cannot believe the twisting of words and ideas. Didn't Orwell have "5 minutes hate" sessions each day in 1984, maybe each thread no matter what the subject could start off with such a session revamping each regurgitated piece of info - emails - and get it over with so a decent discussion could then be held.
Topic is: Yes, I'll take a Panera Bread in Springfield. Thank You.
Me too!
Me three.
as I've said earlier....I'm very okay with it
Quote from: fsu813 on November 05, 2009, 07:00:44 AM
nvrenuf,
yes, Chriswuf seems to have a ceratin way with words. a way that misrepresents the orginal posters words, that is. so it's not surprising that he took your comment out of context.
also not surprising, in his list of qoutes, he included 2 (mine & another) that were in favor of the Panera, yet he presented them to be a negative. he also said that Dan missed them.....but he actually used them in his orginal post. (whew).
I wish people would be more honest in how they communicate. I mean, i know ceratin people have clear agendas, but come on. Doesn't mean you have to be dishonest about it.
I posted your negative comments from your posts, because the posts weren't wholly positive like you're now trying to imply. You're being disingenuous, and acting like you said "I love Panera, bring it on!" when really your comments were of the "Ok, BUT..." type.
If there was no "but..." then I wouldn't have had anything to quote, would I?
if you see my comment as negatively tinted, then you have a 'half-empty' perspective.
Quote from: Dan B on November 05, 2009, 07:14:35 AM
I actually don't think Chris has an agenda, at least, not on this issue. I think he is primarily a Dare sycophant. Aside from that, Its possible that somewhere along the line SPAR did him wrong, and he enjoys seeing SPAR get beat up. Aside from enjoying the tumult, however, he doesn't seem to have any clear mission.
I do happen to like Stephen, but I'm hardly his sycophant. And I think your comment is ironic, because the only sycophants around here are the cadre of defenders who think SPAR can do no wrong. But as to your second point, yeah, I gotta admit there's no love lost there. I always found it weird that one or another of my properties would be fine for years, then all of a sudden COJ would show up saying they got 10 complaints in a month. Didn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what's up, especially when they were doing it to other landlords I talked to. It's pretty despicable. And thanks to sheclown's excellent detective work, they got busted red-handed with their hands in multiple different cookie jars.
So it turns out that at the same time they're out hassling everybody else, they've been running around behind the scenes trying to make it easier to knock down historic properties, taking big payouts from developers, and waging petty wars against a city attorney, and on and on and on. LMFAO!!! I mean, there is just a certain level satisfaction in watching someone like that get hoisted on their own petard.
About Panera, I think it'd be great for S'field. Personally I like Panera, even though they're a chain. I just ate there for lunch yesterday. I'd definitely go to it, since the next-closest one is at the roosevelt mall and that place is an overcrowded nightmare. I also go to plenty of local businesses, it just depends on the mood.
I guess the only thing that bothered me enough to speak up in this thread, is the clustering factor. Clustering is real. Thrift stores, restaurants, corporate chains, local businesses, etc., all work together naturally to bring customers to their neighbors. You'll have people who go to lunch and say "let's check out the thrift store", and people going to the thrift store and see the Panera and say "hmm, I'm hungry...", and still other people who will want coffee and decide to go into 3 layers. It's a natural synergy. The cluster itself becomes the draw, instead of any individual business, and they all win because of it. But for it to work, people can't be so insistent about what they"don't want" or "won't allow". For it to work, the mix needs to be as diverse as possible. You can't just have 10 storefronts that are all the same thing, that won't draw anybody.
you were going good until your second sentence.....
"because the only sycophants around here are the cadre of defenders who think SPAR can do no wrong"
......and then you had to go and massively exaggerate again.
anyone know anyone that has a "SPAR can do no wrong" opinion?
I don't.
I'm not a big fan of Panera (I don't hate it, I just don't care for their food much), but my wife loves it. But even though I don't care for Panera, it would be a great addition to Springfield. I think it wuold help out other business' immensely to have a popular upscale chain like Panera.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on November 05, 2009, 11:26:18 AM
I guess the only thing that bothered me enough to speak up in this thread, is the clustering factor. Clustering is real. Thrift stores, restaurants, corporate chains, local businesses, etc., all work together naturally to bring customers to their neighbors. You'll have people who go to lunch and say "let's check out the thrift store", and people going to the thrift store and see the Panera and say "hmm, I'm hungry...", and still other people who will want coffee and decide to go into 3 layers. It's a natural synergy. The cluster itself becomes the draw, instead of any individual business, and they all win because of it. But for it to work, people can't be so insistent about what they"don't want" or "won't allow". For it to work, the mix needs to be as diverse as possible. You can't just have 10 storefronts that are all the same thing, that won't draw anybody.
Bingo. Regardless of whether its a car wash, Panera, Uptown Market, Chan's or the thrift shop, for the commercial district to truly develop naturally, acceptance of a diverse mix of businesses is critical. The last thing the corridor needs is to gain a reputation in the business world of being a tough place to get a business started, due to time consuming front end hassling. Time equals money and the more difficult it becomes to spend your money on taking a risk on Main, the better chance most potential businesses go elsewhere to serve the urban core.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on November 05, 2009, 11:26:18 AM
But as to your second point, yeah, I gotta admit there's no love lost there. I always found it weird that one or another of my properties would be fine for years, then all of a sudden COJ would show up saying they got 10 complaints in a month. Didn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what's up, especially when they were doing it to other landlords I talked to. It's pretty despicable.
I think this is where the problem started. Take any issue at face value and evaluate it from a common sense approach. Why would anyone report properties for no reason? The options seem to me to be 1) the property is not kept up nicely 2) the tenents are a nuisance 3) you've made an enemy for some reason who wants you gone 4) you have a crazy neighbor 5) you have a criminal neighbor who thinks you are disrupting his business.
I'm sure there might be some more but these came to mind.
My house is the 3rd from a corner. My neighbor on the corner used to own the property between us and rent it out. He did regular maintainence, had great tenents and there was never a problem. He eventually sold the property to an out of town investor. Six 20 somethings moved in, again no problem for a while. The kids started complaining that the landlord would do no maintainence and the place was starting to fall apart. We helped them with the yard and minor repairs (like installing a working front porch light) The property "manager" would never show up, many times not even to pick up the rent. One by one they started moving out. When the bathroom ceiling caved in they threw in the towel and gave up. This happend over a five year period and no one on the block had complaints. Then the new tenents moved in. Pit bulls in cages on the front balcony that never stopped barking, unruly children running through the street, our yards and porches (It was a his, mine and ours thing and before they left I knew the names of 15 kids) constant partying, drinking, cussing and drug using on the front stoop every night. We kindly asked the tenents to control the dogs, noise and kids and were met with threats and worse behavior. We called the landlord for relief but none came. We called code enforcement, animal control and the cops. Finally the only thing that worked was threatening the owner with legal action and the people were finally evicted. My point is, we coexisted for years with no problems or complaints but once faced with the nightmare of the new tenents the calls and complaints from neighbors became regular. It's hard enough to get anyone to do something about a legitimate complaint so I have a hard time believing that anyone would be given credence for false complaints. I think SPAR probably gets the blame for a lot of this when it is really the neighbors of the properties in question.
Sorry, I'm off subject again. Panera-good, ill behaved landlords and tenents-bad.
I think some of it did originally get going with the tenants. Actually all of it probably did. I did have some problems, and a JSO/SWAT drug raid that didn't help much. But that tenant (anthony watkins, I'll never forget that bane of my existence) was already in there and under a lease when I bought that building, and I already was going to get rid of him as soon as I could. But the real problem, from my viewpoint, was that it's pretty difficult to find tenants that you're happy with in that area, it's not like it's a high-rise on the beach or something.
There just aren't hordes of married couples with the statistical 2.3 kids, the tahoe, and the family dog, beating down your door to rent in S'field. Actually there's pretty much none of that. I felt (and still feel) it is unfair to blame landlords for having a certain class of tenants, when that's all that's really available over there. SPAR and its associated LOLA's disagree, and felt the solution was calling in complaints on property owners in an effort to trigger condemnation. They literally prefer an empty building or a vacant lot to having "those kind of people" in the neigborhood (that is comprised of 90% of "those kind of people" to begin with, long before they even got there). I was really taken aback at some of these people with that attitude of "I'm going to move in here, and now everybody I don't like has to move out." The vast majority of tenants were good (but poor) people.
And FWIW, I never got a single call before one of those orchestrated campaigns to call in 100 complaints on the same place, they just did it without telling me. By the time I was ever notified about anything, it had usually already become a disaster. And not just for me, for COJ too, since I'm not the personality type to let things go unchallenged. But if someone ever picked up the phone and said "here's what's up, can we work on this?" I would've been more than happy to. But it never happened. Shoot first, ask questions later.
And most of those complaints were utter B.S., that's the funny thing, code enforcement was getting as sick of dealing with it as I was. But once they get a complaint, each one has to be investigated. So I get upset when I see the same thing happening to someone else. Until just today, nobody ever contacted Strider and Sheclown and said "let's take a look at this and see whether it's really a problem or not", they just went ahead declared a behind-the-scenes war on them based on nothing more than preconceived notions and their own prejudices.
"Until just today, nobody ever contacted Strider and Sheclown and said "let's take a look at this and see whether it's really a problem or not", they just went ahead declared a behind-the-scenes war on them based on nothing more than preconceived notions and their own prejudices."
- this already happened. an agreement was reached. Strider's properties were grandfathered in and all was well, then he found a way to open more without "techincally" opening more....going against the agreement's sentiment. thus all this mess.
Panera opening in Springfield = good
That is my surely futile attempt to get this thread back on topic.
well, i don't think anyone would disagree with that in the end.
It would speak volumes if main street could land something even similar to panera.
As chains go, Panera isn't so bad. Some of their locations are set back, but some engage and enliven the street - at least this would not be a foreign concept to them.
Quote from: cindi on November 05, 2009, 02:45:23 PM
It would speak volumes if main street could land something even similar to panera.
cindy have you been to Jerome Browns? kicks panera ass!
love jerome's but they don't have scones.
Mmmmm, bbq scones :D :D
oh yeah, scones!!! :-*
Thanks for the reminder Karl, its almost time for Jerome's deep fried turkey!
yummmmmy. deep fried turkey scones.
They sell turkeys for Thanksgiving too? I bought mine last year from Woodys.
yeppers.
Quote from: nvrenuf on November 05, 2009, 04:07:18 PM
Thanks for the reminder Karl, its almost time for Jerome's deep fried turkey!
oh hell yeah, thats what I'm talking about..
I'm all for the chains, in fact I'm pulling for a Chili's on Main St! Heck, even elsewhere, they can put it on my first floor and I'll move everything upstairs.
chili's does have some good bbq baby back ribs, so I would be for that also.
We can't do that Matt, there will be too many cars on 4th Street and too much noise and light for the neighbors. :D
Why don't you put it next to your house Lake since your such a big proponent of commercial use next to residential? Where do you live again? :D
I'll trade a chilis for a brinks and an empty field...
Quote from: Springfield Girl on November 09, 2009, 05:10:52 PM
Why don't you put it next to your house Lake since your such a big proponent of commercial use next to residential? Where do you live again? :D
If they are willing to sign a lease, they can move into my bottom floor. Seriously.
building something new (new commercial) next to something that's been there forever is one thing but if you move in next door to a car wash that has been there since 1955, well?????
City means mixed use, commercial and residential, loud and quiet, clean and dirty, rich and poor, purple hair and hair nets, and all in between.
Suburbs means a neighborhood of single family homes neatly connected by a common theme.
So where does Springfield fit in?
Quote from: cindi on November 09, 2009, 05:59:03 PM
building something new (new commercial) next to something that's been there forever is one thing but if you move in next door to a car wash that has been there since 1955, well?????
The carwash hasn't been in operation for at least 17 years.
Quote from: Ethylene on November 03, 2009, 06:42:28 PM
Dunn Avenue Starbucks is shuttered and gonzo! I stopped there 1st time back in September only to find it out of business!
I used the drive by at this location this past Sunday and I explained I would certainly have to print this retraction. They are indeed open, have been going strong for 3 years now and the gal working the drive thru did not know of any recent temporary closure but then she had only been working there about a month now. It's a convenient stop, love the drive thru, as I often go to Camden County, GA to see family on my days off. This update won't help Springfield but it is what it is! Sorry if I mislead anyone, please patronize Starbucks on Dunn Avenue! (Wow, I see I also misspelled September originally. Ugh...that's why I don't post often. Typos will make me insane.)
I went to the Panera at River City today, my second time in a week. I am addicted to the breakfast sandwiches. I would looovve a Panera on Main St!
Although it is not Panera, I receieved a newsletter email this week from Jeff at Three Layers and they will be adding in some Panera type lunch elements...
QuoteWe are adding to our lunch menu this week too. Look for our new "Pick Three" & Paninis coming this week!
Glad to see that Three Layer is adding to their menu and branching out to boot! I got to ask if Panera has SPAR approval to set up shop.............I mean, they may not be high end enough to suit them?
And Layers is now open Mondays too
That is great news about Three Layers. Though, I suggested hot dogs once and I could tell that Jeff seriously thought about throwing me out on my ear! (hey, they are easily cooked, affordable, most people eat them and they can be "gourmet!)
As to Panera‘s, it would be great, but I’m not sure they think Springfield and Main Street are quite ready for them yet. I would think it would depend on where most of their San Marco clientele came from, the downtown side or the San Marco and out further side. However, in today’s economy, they may just adopt a wait and see attitude towards opening a replacement store for San Marco.
I'm glad they will be open on Mondays. Seems like Mondays are a good day for a strong cup of coffee.
Quote from: fsu813 on November 03, 2009, 08:07:57 PM
Ok, so to clear it up:
The Starbucks on Dunn is closed, obviouisly they didn't do so well.
There is a Panera on the Northside, in the Rivercity Market, which has a variety of other destinations as well. Given equal distance, I would guess that that location would draw better than one on Main.
While I would welcome a Panera, I think the odds are stacked against it. Maybe in 3 years. =(
Really ...why?
Panera on Main Street? Why would they bother?
Main? With the medians limiting access, you're probably down to 4th Street in the historic district, considering all the other full signalized intersections are pretty much built out with buildings in use. If they came to Main Street, its probably more feasible to open north of the historic district. Land is cheaper, the traffic counts are higher and there are no medians limiting accessibility.
The medians blocking cross traffic on odd numbered streets was a horrible idea for commercial viability. It's never been more evident now that the construction is done. The city will spend another small fortune to correct it in the distant future.
The former uniform warehouse on the NE corner of 5th and main was for sale recently (may still be). I was looking at the building while waiting for my food at CHAN's and thinking how great a space it could be and the medians hit me in the face and really depressed me. The odd numbered intersections are going to see painfully slow development.
Yeah..........I noticed that driving down Main Street the other day and methinks FDOT floated one in the punch bowl since it makes no sense! Really hampers cross street availability and being able to turn at every side street! Good job FDOT/COJ lets hear it for safety! Not quite sure for whose or for what but does nothing to enhance business access................boy, really good job whoever you are! Idiot!
Main Street got done. We could have just settled for what we had and gotten nothing. The mediums are not the most ideal design, but are what the FDOT does today. Without them, no new Main Street. The city is not to "blame", the fact that Main is a State Highway is. Rather than complain about them, why not come up with a strategy that uses them? Design parking so that it is easy to get to. Then, people can walk from place to place.
In my mind, the mediums are an issue only if you have the suburban mentality that says you must drive everywhere. If you think walk-able, the mediums no longer matter. After all, isn't that what everyone says they want? A walk-able Main Street? And do not forget that there is an alley system. The utilities were moved to the alleys and that makes Main look better. But, it also insured that the alleys will be there and maintained. Include the alleys in any plans, possibly to use for those bike lanes some have lamented about.
Parking is going to be a problem sooner rather than later. The tax places being open has shown that just one business on each block that is viable and involves bringing in people in cars can take up the parking for the entire block. Parking lots will be needed. Perhaps on those blocks available via the mediums and with false facades at the street to mask what they really are. Some lots have paving now so the cost could be kept to a minimum to start with.
I would think that Panera’s or any place like them could get into a place on Main very economically right now and could be one consideration for them. Further up Main is a mixed bag and probably only more affordable due to the historic issues rather than land values.
Main Street’s design seems to have created a great opportunity rather than being an issue.
strider I agree to a point......if your north bound and the business you wish to visit is on the west side then you have to do a U turn inorder to get to it.........having parking areas at intervals might be the answer but then they need to be staggered and marked.........or maybe even paid parking of some sort and that would start the parking at one spot then walking to where ever one needs to go! Maybe even pocket parks masking the parking lots persay........Main Street does look nice but this is just starting so there is room for improvement!
I agree to a point as well, but my train of thought is also heavily impacted by the reality of working and designing facilities for many of the places people dream about over the years. They look for certain things and some of them demand them, unless you have an insane amount of foot traffic, which Main does not and won't anytime soon.
Imo, its better to focus on attracting local mom&pop type establishments that serve the community's existing demographics over chains at this point. Its easier to get them in, they add character and stimulate foot traffic that does not currently exist. When the conditions are right, the chains will come on their own.
OMG a u turn, how awful and those horrible medians that force us to drive 1 extra block! It doesn't stop anyone anywhere else in town. Jeez, I wish it was as easy as a u turn or one extra block to get my breakfast sandwich at River City. There are certain things each of us will travel for and others we won't. I refuse to give up my Panera (only for the breakfast sandwich-I'm addicted) but I dumped the Fox when Uptown Market opened.
And I need to check to see if the sky is falling cause I actually agreed with Strider's last post.
QuoteAnd I need to check to see if the sky is falling cause I actually agreed with Strider's last post.
i think we just found out why there was a drastic drop in temp last week -
Quote from: thelakelander on January 20, 2010, 10:25:40 AM
I agree to a point as well, but my train of thought is also heavily impacted by the reality of working and designing facilities for many of the places people dream about over the years. They look for certain things and some of them demand them, unless you have an insane amount of foot traffic, which Main does not and won't anytime soon.
Imo, its better to focus on attracting local mom&pop type establishments that serve the community's existing demographics over chains at this point. Its easier to get them in, they add character and stimulate foot traffic that does not currently exist. When the conditions are right, the chains will come on their own.
I'm fine with Mom and Pop's. If they offer what I need in a clean, attractive setting I would patronize them. I think Main is a great location for businesses if they offer what residents and Downtown workers need. There are thousands of people that travel to and from work via Main St. everyday. It would be easy to stop for some things on the way in and others on the way out. I plan my stops that way no matter what part of town I'm in. As far as lunch hour, people don't have much time so I assume most would only have one destination at that time anyway.
Quote from: Springfield Girl on January 20, 2010, 10:35:02 AM
OMG a u turn, how awful and those horrible medians that force us to drive 1 extra block! It doesn't stop anyone anywhere else in town. Jeez, I wish it was as easy as a u turn or one extra block to get my breakfast sandwich at River City. There are certain things each of us will travel for and others we won't. I refuse to give up my Panera (only for the breakfast sandwich-I'm addicted) but I dumped the Fox when Uptown Market opened.
And I need to check to see if the sky is falling cause I actually agreed with Strider's last post.
Its not much but you will really be shocked at how certain companies choose and eliminate perspective sites. I'm just trying to add a little perspective from the experience of actually working with developers and chains (many that continued to be mentioned here) to find and design sites that meet their basic selection criteria.
For example, have you noticed that every single new Walgreens or CVS around here happens to be located near a stop light? That's not by coincidence. In addition, some chains have a tendency to locate to a certain spot, based off the presence of another being nearby. Thus if you want one, you may have to recruit another that may be off your radar first.
Instead of ignoring the reality of how these establishments select locations, it will be to our best benefit to understand and formulate a plan/agenda that best facilitates those needs.
There has only been one location of a store that has ever been a deterrant for me when it came to shopping there. That would be the Starbucks on the corner of Baymeadows Road and Southside in the strip mall next to Blockbuster. That has to be one of he worst locations ever for a business, you have to make about 4 turns and wait at 2 LONG lights just to get out of there to head back to 9A/Baymeadows direction. So I think having to make a single U-Turn is NOTHING. I have lived in Chicago, San Fran, and Seattle so if a U-Turn is really that big of a deal, then some people on here really need get things in perspective.
I grew up here in Jacksonville and then shot out of here like a bolt of lightning when I turned 19 and joined the Navy. I spent almost 13yrs traveling around the world and the one thing that I have noticed after moving back here, just to be around my daughter, (not because of the great music scene, the art, or the culture...I mean lack of any of those) is that while Jacksonville may be the largest city in the continental United States, it still has the smallest mentality.
No doubt , Stenodave, no doubt. Hopefully, sites like this will help change that mentality.
I made a push for bike paths a couple of years ago after the kids over at Zombie bikes brought it up.
I was told that A) the design work was complete, so it was too late to ask for changes, and b) that bike lanes were given up so there could be more parking.
Quote from: stephendare on January 20, 2010, 10:39:36 AM
QuoteAfter all, isn't that what everyone says they want? A walk-able Main Street? And do not forget that there is an alley system. The utilities were moved to the alleys and that makes Main look better. But, it also insured that the alleys will be there and maintained. Include the alleys in any plans, possibly to use for those bike lanes some have lamented about.
Bike Paths.
Brilliant Joe!
What an awesome asset for the neighborhood to have.
Initially, I was frustrated and to a point, still am about the absence of bike paths on Main Street. However, I think we have a paths for the bikes on the east and west sides of main already.... Laura and Hubbard street, those two should be much safer than Main, path or not.
I'm not happy about the medians, but think we can make them work...
A1A in Daytona Beach is the panultimate example of this nonsense.
Over the past 3 decades, each new streetscaping project has come along and made this mistake. Some of the medians were even really nice, with planters holding flowers and palm trees, etc. It was all very expensive. Then as soon as it's complete, they start realizing they have a problem. Less people visit the businesses because the medians create traffic jams and unsafe conditions, as they make people drive blocks past their destinations, and then do a U-turn and cut across two or three lanes of traffic, before turning in. Eventually, they wind up coming back not too long after and spending millions more to rip it all out again.
This is one of those things where the idea is hatched as a way to improve safety, but winds up having the direct opposite effect. The immense volume of U-turns and people trying to cut across multiple lanes creates a huge safety problem. Not only that, the businesses suffer because it becomes a hassle for their customers to get to the place.
Those center medians are very pretty on Main Street but there are no left turn lanes anywhere that I saw! "U" turn is the only alternative but someone will get killed trying to make a turn or hurt badly! Traffic jams and unsafe conditions make that setup dangerous and FDOT should be held accountable! quoting Springfield Girl "OMG a U turn" ............yes mam it is.......better you than me! No place to put bike paths, no turn lanes........yup......FDOT at its very best!
I drive a truck, so to make a U-turn, I have to either:
A). Jump the curb
B). Go into a parallel parking spot to make the complete turn
C). Do a half turn, stop and then back up, to stay in the lanes.
Personally, I have no problem doing either three but they do have a negative impact on commercial infill. They are there now so we'll have to do our best to overcome them.
I understand lake............what you have now is better than what you had before.............but it is an accident looking for a place to happen! I would expect FDOT to take these situations into account rather than what you guys ended up with! It is going to be even worse when whats planted in the center median starts growing up!
Baymeadows Road has this same U-turn problem except I think it is far more dangerous- probably because there is much more traffic. There are certain areas that have cut-outs so larger vehicles don't have to drive up on the curb.
Quote from: CS Foltz on January 20, 2010, 01:34:15 PM
Those center medians are very pretty on Main Street but there are no left turn lanes anywhere that I saw!
Hmmm.... I'm pretty sure there are left turn lanes off of Main onto 4th, 6th, 8th and 10th. At least I THOUGHT I was in a turn lane... ;)
Not sure Porch Cats..............if you turn off of Eighth on to Main, Eighth has a turn lane but Main has two lanes north bound at that point. There is no specified turn lane, at least I did not see any markings on the street. Eighth is marked and light does have an arrow for left turn..............not sure about Main! Bay Meadows is supposed to be upgraded sometime in the next five years but nothing to this point.........still bumper to bumper at rush hour both ways!
Quote from: cline on January 20, 2010, 01:46:30 PM
Baymeadows Road has this same U-turn problem except I think it is far more dangerous- probably because there is much more traffic. There are certain areas that have cut-outs so larger vehicles don't have to drive up on the curb.
"Jacksonville doesn't have traffic... we have congestion..." Mike Miller, JTA. ;D
OCKLAWAHA
It kinda boggles the mind that they're trying to rebuild Springfield as more pedestrian friendly but they didnt build in a bike lane. Thats just all kinds of dumb. Thankfully the road is pretty wide & so are the back streets, so its still pretty bike friendly, but still. It would've helped.
BTW, Im not sure about Panera in Spr. Dont get me wrong, I like Panera, but leave that stuff to the burbs. Seriously, start that & then before you know it you'll have a Starbucks, then a Moe's, & so on. You'll be crawling with yuppies & looking like the every other place in the burbs before you know it.
No, Spr needs local businesses that provide needed services but feel like part of the community, not faceless giant corporations. Some of that is OK & can be good, but the south in general really has an issue with "knowing when to say when" about that kinda thing.
the Amish faction in Springfield are NOT going to be happy.
"It kinda boggles the mind that they're trying to rebuild Springfield as more pedestrian friendly but they didnt build in a bike lane. Thats just all kinds of dumb. Thankfully the road is pretty wide & so are the back streets, so its still pretty bike friendly, but still. It would've helped."
- Main Street is technically a federal highway (US-17, i beleive). they have restrictions on what can and can't be done.
Quote from: fsu813 on January 20, 2010, 03:38:42 PM
"It kinda boggles the mind that they're trying to rebuild Springfield as more pedestrian friendly but they didnt build in a bike lane. Thats just all kinds of dumb. Thankfully the road is pretty wide & so are the back streets, so its still pretty bike friendly, but still. It would've helped."
- Main Street is technically a federal highway (US-17, i beleive). they have restrictions on what can and can't be done.
Was one of those restrictions not being able to put in a bike lane?? At least in the historic part of Main.
I believe so.
Yes, Porch Cats is right, we have turning lanes at the intersections. I used the term u turn because others had. It is really much easier getting around Springfield than most other areas IMO and one of the reasons I like living here.
Lake, I understand the requirements that businesses look for when planning new locations but I also know they make many exceptions for historic districts. Springfield may not be there yet but we have tons of upside.
Last but not least, like FSU said, Main St is a federal highway. If I had the choice I would rather have the two lane street that it used to be but those days are long gone. We can't have it both ways. If we had the charm and walkability of the narrower street people would complain about the lack of density and traffic. It is what it is, we have to work within that framework.
If you have anything wider than a two lane street, you really, really need a median of some sort if you want a community that it is safe to walk in. Limiting the sight line with a treed median also tends to reduce the speeds of the cars on a multi-lane road.
QuoteIf I had the choice I would rather have the two lane street that it used to be but those days are long gone. We can't have it both ways. If we had the charm and walkability of the narrower street people would complain about the lack of density and traffic. It is what it is, we have to work within that framework.
You put your imagination to it and you can do a lot of things. What's described in this statement is pretty much what Lakeland had and removed from their downtown. The change has been remarkable.
DT Lakeland example from yesterdayQuoteTwo more images from DT Lakeland.
Lemon Street Promenade
Ten years ago, Lemon Street was a wide one-way highway (Alt. US 92). With coordinated new infill development, a reduction of street width, a conversion to single land two way traffic and completely eliminating sections of the highway, its now a linear park through the entire DT.
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-2889-p1050285.JPG)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-2759-p1050303.JPG)
Aerial of Lake Mirror in 1994
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/768471265_cR9Bs-L.jpg)
Aerial in Lake Mirror Park in 2008
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/768471248_eMwdq-L.jpg)
I've traveled a lot during my brief career but the transformation of Lemon Street from a major highway into a pedestrian friendly corridor is one of the most amazing things I have seen coming out of an urban area in Florida. Even if we throw out San Francisco as an example, what will it take for Jax to progress to that type of level of visioning and implementing?
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,7292.msg125278.html#msg125278
The Lakeland example would be comparable to completely taking out State and Union, in Jax. In other words, it was something pretty significant that has forever altered the traffic flow in and out of that area, which has made it more walkable.
As for Main's medians and attracting chains, there are exceptions to every rule (as I mentioned earlier by using good foot traffic as an example) but Springfield is not there yet, historic status or not. Maybe in five or ten years (looking at this economy) things may be different.
Since you mentioned it, I've always felt State and Union should be elevated roadways through downtown, leaving the surface streets alone, and letting the traffic connecting from 95 to the bridges do its own thing without interrupting walkability or driveability down below.
Lake always cites that as one of, if not the, biggest issues with connectivity downtown in his "Elements of Urbanism" series.
QuoteThe Lakeland example would be comparable to completely taking out State and Union, in Jax.
Interesting idea. What would the negatives be? Seems Downtown workers heading north at day's end would have to use Bay St to 95 or take Main up to MLK, rather than cutting over on State. Traffic on 8th to 95 would increase. Have to create some other access route into/out of DT from Mathews Bridge. Gameday traffic could use MLK if it wanted to bypass DT (like current police routes cause). Sure there are more probs, but a very interesting idea...
Why not make the allys along main nice and use them as bike paths
Quote from: fsu813 on January 20, 2010, 04:32:04 PM
Lake always cites that as one of, if not the, biggest issues with connectivity downtown in his "Elements of Urbanism" series.
I need to go back to reading those. Things got real busy for me there for awhile.
But yeah, I think they should address State and Union with a separate elevated expressway, and also eliminate all one-way streets downtown (they made a step towards this recently), and also eliminate paid parking altogether. There are so many parking garages downtown that the market will take care of itself, as the people who work in offices can't take chances on hit-or-miss and taking 30 minutes to find a spot. So those folks will mostly will park in garages anyway. For the rest of us, it's throttling the downtown businesses.
A couple more idea; COJ should also get rid of the ridiculous signage restrictions, which have never been fairly enforced to begin with. Modis can have a (literally) 80ft-high lighted sign plastered on both sides of its building, but a small business can't put a sign up. Again, it's like they're determined to screw up downtown.
An opportunity has just dropped in COJ's lap with Vestcor kvetching about the cost of operating 11E and the Roosevelt. COJ has some real leverage. I'd work out a deal to restructure their loans, and to provide new mortgage financing for the projects I'm about to mention, on the condition they take over the Barnett and Laura trio and do something with them. That will clear two eyesores, and Vestcor isn't in much of a position to say "no" these days. Not like their construction business has a lot going on these days...
I think COJ should also take over the former JEA building from Hionedes and conglomerate their regional offices (like everything in that mess in a strip mall on Beach Boulevard, the stuff on Art Museum Drive, etc., they've got these offices all over town they opened as they needed space) into that building. Then it's 3 eyesores down, only 5,424,532,345 to go, but at least you got rid of the biggies.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on January 20, 2010, 04:28:20 PM
Since you mentioned it, I've always felt State and Union should be elevated roadways through downtown, leaving the surface streets alone, and letting the traffic connecting from 95 to the bridges do its own thing without interrupting walkability or driveability down below.
Personally, I would not mind seeing State and Union altered like the Lakeland example (Lemon & Main Streets). Lakeland got it done by pushing the construction of an "Intown (Downtown) Bypass" to divert major truck traffic that was severing their downtown's heart. Looking at State & Union, we already have the MLK Parkway in place to serve as that "Intown Bypass."
(http://clwpolk.com/magnolia/Magnolia_aerial_overlay.jpg)
QuoteState Road 548, the Lakeland In-Town Bypass, is a short six-lane arterial in Lakeland, opened in early 2004. It connects SR 35 (Florida Avenue) north of downtown to SR 35 and SR 600 (Bartow Road and Main Street) east of downtown, allowing traffic to bypass downtown.
SR 548 is signed, but only on reassurance signage. It is signed on street signs as Bartow Road, which is the name of its continuation along SR 35 at the east end.
In mid-2005, US 98 was rerouted onto SR 548.
QuoteThere are plans to extend SR 548 west across SR 563 (Martin Luther King, Jr. Avenue) and SR 539 (Kathleen Road) to end at SR 600 (George Jenkins Boulevard) west of downtown. This will provide a full eastâ€"west bypass to supplement SR 546 (Memorial Boulevard) and SR 400 (Interstate 4).
This part just opened
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florida_State_Road_548
Quote from: zoo on January 20, 2010, 04:38:47 PM
QuoteThe Lakeland example would be comparable to completely taking out State and Union, in Jax.
Interesting idea. What would the negatives be? Seems Downtown workers heading north at day's end would have to use Bay St to 95 or take Main up to MLK, rather than cutting over on State. Traffic on 8th to 95 would increase. Have to create some other access route into/out of DT from Mathews Bridge. Gameday traffic could use MLK if it wanted to bypass DT (like current police routes cause). Sure there are more probs, but a very interesting idea...
In the Lakeland case, the one way pairs were converted back to two-way streets and lanes were taken out. Today, you can still take them through downtown like before, but its been set up in a manner that really reduces vehicle speeds. Those looking to speed through (they were not stopping anyway) changed their travel behavior by taking the bypass route that passes 1/2-mile north. Applied to State & Union or even Main & Ocean, they could still be accessible from all points but designed to promote multimodal mobility (cars, transit, bike & ped) instead of just cars. Its something that would definately be expensive (Lakeland's alternative route cost $61 million alone) but in terms of long term viability and connectivity between Springfield, Hogans Creek and DT, it would certainly be worth it (Judging from Lakeland's success after their highway conversion).
Btw, I'll try and contact some of my old friends at the LEDC tomorrow and see if they have any "before" shots of downtown and those streets. It would be an interesting case study.
The reason there are not bike lanes is that it was felt parking was needed more (yes, the choice was bike lanes or parking) and, yes, the reason we could have parking and not the bike lanes was the residential streets paralleling Main.
As I and someone else said earlier, utilizing the alleys as bike paths would give us the best of both worlds. Bike and walk paths, safety (additional lighting and traffic) and a reason for small drink shops and soft serve places, etc. in the back of some of the store fronts.
Ok, I may be dreaming, but why not?
Yes, Lake, I agree that most of the chains will not come due to some of the issues, but in places like Annapolis, the chains are there and let me tell you, driving anywhere in Annapolis is not fun. But parking and walking is. They have a large parking garage that is free just for that reason.
The medians are not going anywhere for probably decades. Work with them, around them and perhaps we can have something unique...which is one reason I think the alley idea is a good one.
Strider, Annapolis has decent density and foot traffic. If and when Main Street gets those things, the medians won't be the issue they are today.
Lake: While I failed to say it, I thought it...yes, I realize the chains would be out in the future somewhere after we had proved to be a successful, walk-able commercial district.
So, clean and lighted alleys. Marked bike paths so the walkers didn’t get run over. Brick crosswalks at the side streets, possibly even walk, don’t walk lights to coincide with the traffic lights on the left turn blocks. Some of the store fronts like the old Boomtown could have tables out back with the back entrance more used than the front. Then, after dinner, walk down a couple of blocks and the back of the thrift store is open and you can go look around. Down two more store fronts and the back third open to the alley is a cheap but good soft serve stand, four flavors, two possible twist combinations ( I actually want to do this…). Walk back behind the thrift store to the parking lot and drive home.
While some may dream to change the medians, it would be more likely that we could get funding for the alleys for the safety issues and the bike lanes than anything to change Main Street proper at this point.
^Very true.
I drove down main this past week and yes, I imagine there's going to some collision when people are making U-Turns to find that spot out front, but let's face it. We would rather have people fending for spots on main then not.
I like the lay out. SO clean so nice. Rather would like a Light Rail running down the middle but looks like there is room no?
Lake, if we had a solid, attractive and doable plan for the alleys and got commitments from the city to help with the parking issues, could that be used to help attract an "anchor" business, be it retail or restaurant or even institutional (thinking school/ college related rather than social services)?
I like the back-door idea. There's plenty of space behind some of the shops on Main and parking as well. I could see it being tied to the alleys and promoted that way. It opens up a whole new world especially to locals.
^If a city like Charlotte can convince an entire school to shut down campuses in two cities and relocate, its certainly possible with the right plan and roll out.
QuoteJohnson & Wales plans Charlotte, N.C., campus (from 2002)
CHARLOTTE, N.C. -- The $82 million campus that Johnson & Wales University will open downtown here by 2004 eventually will become the second largest campus for the culinary and hospitality institution, following only J&W's original Providence, R.I., location in size.
J&W, which is based in Providence, plans to consolidate its campuses in Charleston, S.C., and Norfolk, Va., into the Charlotte location. Charleston, with more than 1,300 students, and Norfolk, with more than 600, eventually will close. J&W, however, plans to maintain a presence in those cities, most likely through continued student internships.
The university system's other campuses are in North Miami with about 1,700 students, Denver with 646 students and an information technology campus in Worcester, Mass., with 69 students. The Providence campus has more than 9,000 students, giving the entire system more than 13,600 students.
The Charlotte campus is expected to have more than 800 students enrolled by 2004 and should reach a student population of more than 2,800 by 2007. Employment is expected to reach 250 staff members and faculty.
While Charlotte officials and businesses heralded the addition of a major educational institution as an economic and cultural boon to the city's downtown, J&W administrators view the move as fitting to its role as a career university.
The campus, which will be the anchor in a commercial and residential development project called Gateway Village, will be in an urban setting and close to businesses where J&W students can fulfill their internship requirements and, one hopes, obtain jobs after graduation, officials said.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m3190/is_26_36/ai_88268838/?tag=content;col1
Charlotte campus today(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-6152-p1130838.JPG)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-6173-p1130839.JPG)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-6128-p1130829.JPG)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-6164-p1130841.JPG)
City like Charlotte did convince........makes me wonder just what was offered either above or below the table! Some how I don't see Jacksonville offering anything that would interest much to anyone!
Quote from: peestandingup on January 20, 2010, 03:50:17 PM
Quote from: fsu813 on January 20, 2010, 03:38:42 PM
"It kinda boggles the mind that they're trying to rebuild Springfield as more pedestrian friendly but they didnt build in a bike lane. Thats just all kinds of dumb. Thankfully the road is pretty wide & so are the back streets, so its still pretty bike friendly, but still. It would've helped."
- Main Street is technically a federal highway (US-17, i beleive). they have restrictions on what can and can't be done.
Was one of those restrictions not being able to put in a bike lane?? At least in the historic part of Main.
no..they just chose on-street parking instead....but understand that FDOT will not build multi-lane undivided roadways anymore....and they're not even fond of the painted median turn lanes (suicide lane)
I lived two blocks from the Johnson & Wales campus in Charlotte's Third Ward for over 10 years. When I moved into my townhouse in 1994, the area two blocks north was a residential area in serious disrepair, literally on the wrong side of the tracks from Uptown which was only six blocks away. Among the homes, there were drug houses, boarded up homes and apartment buildings, prostitutes, etc. (sound familiar?) Incidentally, this area is not very far from the Wilmore area that I believe was the Charlotte neighborhood also featured in Southern Living...
In my opinion, there were two main events that brought the needed "ooomph!" to Third Ward's resurgence after years of trying.
First, the NFL awarded a football team to Charlotte, and their nicely manicured practice fields ended up literally behind my home by the 1996 season. Today, one of J&Ws dorms sits next to one of the fields. And the new stadium was a five-block walk from my front door.
Second, Bank of America (I think NationsBank then?) built their large technology center that became the anchor to the blocks that now hold the J&W Campus and dorms. It took awhile, but J&W came in, and shops and restaurants, etc. followed.
One thing to note is that the neighborhood associations never stopped lobbying the governmental powers. There were proposals, plans, disagreements, power struggles, etc. but the groups simply didn't give up. We obviously have what seem like ridiculous fights in Springfield over the silliest of things, but I remember one particularly angry and ongoing (months!) "conversation" among Third Ward residents over whether or not we limit parking in the neighborhood during football games.
PorchCats.............go to the other Springfield Thread when you get the chance! (Sparbarians)
strider.............did a recon today down Main Street from the bottom, or City end, to 32nd St. Broke into the Papa Sierra Search Pattern..........parrell track pattern out 5 blocks east and west centered on Main St and I have to agree with your idea of using the "Alley's" as bike lanes has some merit! Most of that is open enough to use it in that manner and as long vehicle traffic does not cause issue's your good to go! About the only thing that I see that could cost money may be either road markings (as in paint) or signage (as in signs) I did make note of what "sheclown" was refering to about some of the stores having ample area in the back for acess as well as parking...........however not sure about the security aspect of having front and rear entry's! Not sure how you would approach the City about it other than involve Dr Johnny once you get some kinda of plan worked out!
We've thought about it for the thrift store. I think we could make it work.
One of the reasons I think the alley idea will work is that for the most part, all of the buildings will need a pretty substantial build out to be used for things like restraunts. The floor plan could be laid out to accommodate the idea. Retail stores would easily accommodate a simple rear entrance if the idea caught on. As to safety....once the alleys are cleaned, lighted and used, they will be safer than the actual Main Street (due to traffic).
I’m also thinking Flop House Dogs (the eatable ones, not four legged) could be the first business in the new and improved alleys.
Flop House Dogs...a simple place that serves hot dogs with chili, with slaw, with cheese, with any of the other dozen things you can put on a dog.
The alley idea could work, but some asphalt would be essential. The alley I lived off of tore my car up after a year. Scared to think what it would do to my bike!
The alleys couldn't be much worse than some of the roads. ;D
strider..........what the address for yall's store? Will try and make it by there real soon.........alley idea has merit, something for "Flop House Dogs".....got work cut out for you!
The thrift store is at 1728 Main Street and open Tuesday through Sat., 9 to 5, sometimes later if the street asks us nicely.
In the next few days, I am going to try to get pics of many of the alleys and see if I can get them posted. Flop House Dogs is an idea that is indeed being worked on.
I want a breakfast club between 7th and 8th. I guess a Panera would work. But, a mom/pop jazz/breakfest/coffee neighborhood type place would be awesome. Where's everybody in springfield going now for a weekend breakfast out?
Just like this: http://www.thebreakfastklub.com/
Quote from: gatorback on January 23, 2010, 02:00:51 AM
I want a breakfast club between 7th and 8th. I guess a Panera would work. But, a mom/pop jazz/breakfest/coffee neighborhood type place would be awesome.
My friend owns the Metro Diner in San Marco and wants to open a few more, I might have to talk Springfield up to him! Everytime I go into the diner, I leave about 8lbs heavier.
Quote from: Stenodave on January 23, 2010, 02:04:38 AM
Quote from: gatorback on January 23, 2010, 02:00:51 AM
I want a breakfast club between 7th and 8th. I guess a Panera would work. But, a mom/pop jazz/breakfest/coffee neighborhood type place would be awesome.
My friend owns the Metro Diner in San Marco and wants to open a few more, I might have to talk Springfield up to him! Everytime I go into the diner, I leave about 8lbs heavier.
right! Nothing says love like catfish and grits, or wings and waffles. I'm just saying at that level of cholesterol you've got to have love in your heart.
Quote from: gatorback on January 23, 2010, 02:11:26 AM
Quote from: Stenodave on January 23, 2010, 02:04:38 AM
Quote from: gatorback on January 23, 2010, 02:00:51 AM
I want a breakfast club between 7th and 8th. I guess a Panera would work. But, a mom/pop jazz/breakfest/coffee neighborhood type place would be awesome.
My friend owns the Metro Diner in San Marco and wants to open a few more, I might have to talk Springfield up to him! Everytime I go into the diner, I leave about 8lbs heavier.
right! Nothing says love like catfish and grits, or wings and waffles. I'm just saying at that level of cholesterol you've got to have love in your heart.
Yeah because the blood won't be able to get to it :D
God I want breakfast all of a sudden. Would this place be open 24 hours a day? Is there such a place in Jaksonville open 24/7 besides the usual suspects?
Metro Diner would be awesome!
Quote from: gatorback on January 23, 2010, 02:30:38 AM
God I want breakfast all of a sudden. Would this place be open 24 hours a day? Is there such a place in Jaksonville open 24/7 besides the usual suspects?
Don't get me started on that. I work 8pm-7am. The choices around here are Waffle House (uh, no way) and Famous Amos (Famous for being nasty!). I would rather eat my arm for breakfast if those are my choices over here.
Even after eating Navy chow for almost 13yrs, those two places would still tear me up.
I'm going to Uptown Market tommorrow for breakfast. I can't wait for my crepes and bacon!
Quote from: Springfield Girl on January 23, 2010, 02:38:46 AM
I'm going to Uptown Market tommorrow for breakfast. I can't wait for my crepes and bacon!
So the Mayor of Springfield will be at Uptown Market for breakfast. Shaking hands, kissing babies, Gotcha ;D
Grrrr. I'm having Ramen Noodles so I can buy a house :)
first choice;
http://uptownmarket.tumblr.com/
Krawfish and grits with eggs and brisket is a little pricey. Seriously. But at 11 or 12 dollars u get to take home lunch.
Quote from: gatorback on January 23, 2010, 02:11:26 AM
Quote from: Stenodave on January 23, 2010, 02:04:38 AM
Quote from: gatorback on January 23, 2010, 02:00:51 AM
I want a breakfast club between 7th and 8th. I guess a Panera would work. But, a mom/pop jazz/breakfest/coffee neighborhood type place would be awesome.
My friend owns the Metro Diner in San Marco and wants to open a few more, I might have to talk Springfield up to him! Everytime I go into the diner, I leave about 8lbs heavier.
right! Nothing says love like catfish and grits, or wings and waffles. I'm just saying at that level of cholesterol you've got to have love in your heart.
Have you tried Carl's on Main between 7th & 8th? Certainly not as posh as the breakfast club in your link, but definitely mom & pop and cholesterol-laden.
As I was reading this thread, I also wondered why not Carl's, Porch Cats. Carl' s has a good amount of business on Sunday mornings so I would think their breakfasts are pretty darn good. And they are flexible and so if you want something, ask and they can probably do it. I have to admit, I never make it in time for breakfast, but lunch there is always good.
Carl's is a good option. They don't serve breakfast on Sundays though, only a buffet lunch.
Brunch, opps....like I said, I rarely get anywhere in time for breakfast, so what do I know....